The Black, Grey and Hollow. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

The Black, Grey and Hollow.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
delerak
May 24, 2006 10:54:17 Could someone post a explanation of these? So far what I know is they are different realms or planes within Athas. The Black being closest to the Hollow. And the Grey being farther up and where the sorcerer-kings can actually travel through? From what I rememeber the Hollow was where Rajaat was trapped? Can anyone help with this? Links are welcome, thanks.

-D
#2
gab
May 25, 2006 7:24:43 Your best source of information for this is Defilers and Preservers, available for 5$US at RPGNow (link to product here).

From D&P, about the Black:
The Black is one of two planes that directly touch the prime world of Athas; the other is the Gray. The Black, a realm of chill darkness similar to the Demiplane of Shadow, can be accessed wherever light creates shadows. In the absence of light, no connection to the Black exists.

From D&P, about the Gray:
The Gray is a dreary, endless space, the place Athasians go when they die. This infinite expanse of ashen haze attracts the spirits of the dead once they give up the confines of their mortal raiment. In the Gray, the dead exist in a sort of limbo, floating aimlessly in the ether or assuming the forms they held in life. Eventually, the spirits of the dead are dissolved and absorbed into the Gray, much as their corpses are slowly obliterated by rot and decay on Athas.

The Hollow was where Rajaat was trapped, a prison created deep within the Black.
#3
dirk00001
May 29, 2006 0:01:49 Athas.org changed it a little from 2E, as the original explaination causes problems with some spells (teleport and similar transportation spells tend to use the Astral plane, which is on the other side of the Gray, and so would cause those spells to act really goofy...just one instance). However, here's basically how it goes:

- The Gray is the a combination of the Ethereal plane and the Negative Energy Plane. It completely surrounds the prime material just like the ethereal does elsewhere, and is where the souls of the dead go before they're "devoured" by the plane itself. Undead spirits also reside here, and it's the connection to the Gray that keeps corporeal undead around.

- The Black is the equivalent of the Demiplane of Shadow. It sits "under" the prime material plane (taken from the perspective that the Gray sits "over" the prime).

- The Hollow resides "inside" of the Black; it's a place where nothing at all exists (...except Rajaat...sorta...).

- My favorite analogy for the Prime Material - The Black - The Hollow is that of an empty egg: The Black is the shell of the egg (i.e. the solid part), the prime material is the surface of the egg's shell, and the Hollow is the empty interior.

When you start dealing with travel-spells and the Astral plane things get kludgey, and you get a bunch of different interpretations based on people's personal opinions. Technically speaking the astral is supposed to sit on the "other side" of the Gray, so my in-game ruling has been that travel-spells that make use of the astral "for a brief time" (such as teleportation) do so quickly enough that the Gray doesn't pose any problems. If you tried to Plane Shift to the astral, however, you're going to have issues with getting past the Gray. On a similar note, spells that make use of the ethereal (including blink) are sending creatures to the Gray, which brings up its own interesting set of problems as undead really, really dislike the living, and can see them from a very far distance away...

Check out Terrors of the Dead Lands for the official scoop on how this all works (which differs somewhat from my interpretation, as well as the 2E information).
#4
Pennarin
May 29, 2006 2:07:54
On a similar note, spells that make use of the ethereal (including blink) are sending creatures to the Gray, which brings up its own interesting set of problems as undead really, really dislike the living, and can see them from a very far distance away...

Planescape, and to some extent 3E, sends travelers through the astral even though githyanki can intercept, imprison, or kill them with enough effort. Spells, powers, and items have been written to allow this. D&D fans have appreciated such possibilities ever since they were first mentionned as part of rules, I believe in a Planescape product.

I suspect the same reality applies to athasian travel spells making use of the Gray. Abbey writes of Hamanu traveling through the Gray, and mentions reasons why the ruler prefers the method to others despite the problems that can incur. (Note that in her novels there is only the Gray, Black, and Hollow.) IIRC, reasons to use the Gray were that, contrarily to the Black, you don't get a chance to come near Rajaat's prison. Also, you can go anywhere, including to places you have never been to before, contrarily to teleportation spells. IIRC problems included being lost in the Gray and ending up digested, attracting the attention of a powerful sorcerer or mindbender traveler, and erratic time-flow.
#5
dirk00001
May 29, 2006 16:10:09 Penn - I was going off of the spell/power-vs-plane breakdown from Terrors of the Dead Lands; according to that, teleportation spells still use the Astral while only the ethereal-based travel spells use the Gray.

Again, it's a matter of personal taste - TotDL also lists the Astral as being adjacent to the prime material, which I don't agree with, so...*shrug*
#6
zombiegleemax
Jun 01, 2006 12:32:08 The Black--Transitive Plane.

The Grey--Inner Plane.

The Hollow--demiplane.

--that's how I see it, anyhow NB
#7
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Jun 01, 2006 14:30:30
The Black--Transitive Plane.

The Grey--Inner Plane.

The Hollow--demiplane.

--that's how I see it, anyhow NB

I se the Gray as also a Transitive Plane.

For me, and my campaigns, the Gray is a bizarre blending of the Astral & Ethereal planes, to produce something that is at the same time both of those planes, and yet neither of them as well. It produces an impenetrable (sic) "bubble" that if found in the Astral Plane, I see it appearing like a giant gray pearl. It effectively cut off the Shadow Plane, which the piece of the Shadow Plane that is within the Gray, is known as the Black. The Black, however, has developed in and of itself, to become something a bit different from the Shadow Plane... as it also seems to serve as a realm of nightmares.

By severing the Transitive Planes, and by proxy, any access to any of the Outer Planes, the Gray is a barrier that stops deities from being able to reach Athas (thus there are no gods), however it also stops the souls of the dead from reaching the Outer Planes and becoming petitioners... the souls of the dead become trapped in the Gray, and eventually dissolve into nothingness. This continuous supply of "death energy" has pulled the Gray into alignment with Negative Energy, and the Athasian undead types are connected to the Gray. I also believe that this process resulted in the Gray absorbing the Negative Energy plane, or a good portion of it's qualities (with the Black taking the other qualities).

With the Negative Energy plane absorbed, I also believe that the Elemental planes (and by proxy, the Paraelemental planes) absorbed the Positive Energy plane, gaining much of its properties, and also resulting in the curious manner which the divine spellcasters of Athas are able to gain their power through the Elements.

I also tend to think that the Paraelemental planes have become "poisoned" by Rajaat, even if he isn't fully aware of his influence, due to the nature of Rajaat's species. "Normal" pyreen are intrinsicly (sp?) connected to the four Elemental planes equally (and as such, they are all druids), while Rajaat's twisted form is actually linked to the Paraelemental planes. As his mind became more and more distorted, the impact resulted in the Paraelements being less and less interested in the Balance, while more and more interested in their own personal power and acquiring it.

The Hollow, as others have said, is for me, simply a Demiplane, stuck in the Black.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 delerak May 24, 2006 10:54:17	Could someone post a explanation of these? So far what I know is they are different realms or planes within Athas. The Black being closest to the Hollow. And the Grey being farther up and where the sorcerer-kings can actually travel through? From what I rememeber the Hollow was where Rajaat was trapped? Can anyone help with this? Links are welcome, thanks. -D
#2 gab May 25, 2006 7:24:43	Your best source of information for this is Defilers and Preservers, available for 5$US at RPGNow (link to product here). From D&P, about the Black: The Black is one of two planes that directly touch the prime world of Athas; the other is the Gray. The Black, a realm of chill darkness similar to the Demiplane of Shadow, can be accessed wherever light creates shadows. In the absence of light, no connection to the Black exists. From D&P, about the Gray: The Gray is a dreary, endless space, the place Athasians go when they die. This infinite expanse of ashen haze attracts the spirits of the dead once they give up the confines of their mortal raiment. In the Gray, the dead exist in a sort of limbo, floating aimlessly in the ether or assuming the forms they held in life. Eventually, the spirits of the dead are dissolved and absorbed into the Gray, much as their corpses are slowly obliterated by rot and decay on Athas. The Hollow was where Rajaat was trapped, a prison created deep within the Black.
#3 dirk00001 May 29, 2006 0:01:49	Athas.org changed it a little from 2E, as the original explaination causes problems with some spells (teleport and similar transportation spells tend to use the Astral plane, which is on the other side of the Gray, and so would cause those spells to act really goofy...just one instance). However, here's basically how it goes: - The Gray is the a combination of the Ethereal plane and the Negative Energy Plane. It completely surrounds the prime material just like the ethereal does elsewhere, and is where the souls of the dead go before they're "devoured" by the plane itself. Undead spirits also reside here, and it's the connection to the Gray that keeps corporeal undead around. - The Black is the equivalent of the Demiplane of Shadow. It sits "under" the prime material plane (taken from the perspective that the Gray sits "over" the prime). - The Hollow resides "inside" of the Black; it's a place where nothing at all exists (...except Rajaat...sorta...). - My favorite analogy for the Prime Material - The Black - The Hollow is that of an empty egg: The Black is the shell of the egg (i.e. the solid part), the prime material is the surface of the egg's shell, and the Hollow is the empty interior. When you start dealing with travel-spells and the Astral plane things get kludgey, and you get a bunch of different interpretations based on people's personal opinions. Technically speaking the astral is supposed to sit on the "other side" of the Gray, so my in-game ruling has been that travel-spells that make use of the astral "for a brief time" (such as teleportation) do so quickly enough that the Gray doesn't pose any problems. If you tried to Plane Shift to the astral, however, you're going to have issues with getting past the Gray. On a similar note, spells that make use of the ethereal (including blink) are sending creatures to the Gray, which brings up its own interesting set of problems as undead really, really dislike the living, and can see them from a very far distance away... Check out Terrors of the Dead Lands for the official scoop on how this all works (which differs somewhat from my interpretation, as well as the 2E information).
#4 Pennarin May 29, 2006 2:07:54	On a similar note, spells that make use of the ethereal (including blink) are sending creatures to the Gray, which brings up its own interesting set of problems as undead really, really dislike the living, and can see them from a very far distance away... Planescape, and to some extent 3E, sends travelers through the astral even though githyanki can intercept, imprison, or kill them with enough effort. Spells, powers, and items have been written to allow this. D&D fans have appreciated such possibilities ever since they were first mentionned as part of rules, I believe in a Planescape product. I suspect the same reality applies to athasian travel spells making use of the Gray. Abbey writes of Hamanu traveling through the Gray, and mentions reasons why the ruler prefers the method to others despite the problems that can incur. (Note that in her novels there is only the Gray, Black, and Hollow.) IIRC, reasons to use the Gray were that, contrarily to the Black, you don't get a chance to come near Rajaat's prison. Also, you can go anywhere, including to places you have never been to before, contrarily to teleportation spells. IIRC problems included being lost in the Gray and ending up digested, attracting the attention of a powerful sorcerer or mindbender traveler, and erratic time-flow.
#5 dirk00001 May 29, 2006 16:10:09	Penn - I was going off of the spell/power-vs-plane breakdown from Terrors of the Dead Lands; according to that, teleportation spells still use the Astral while only the ethereal-based travel spells use the Gray. Again, it's a matter of personal taste - TotDL also lists the Astral as being adjacent to the prime material, which I don't agree with, so...shrug
#6 zombiegleemax Jun 01, 2006 12:32:08	The Black--Transitive Plane. The Grey--Inner Plane. The Hollow--demiplane. --that's how I see it, anyhow NB
#7 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 01, 2006 14:30:30	The Black--Transitive Plane. The Grey--Inner Plane. The Hollow--demiplane. --that's how I see it, anyhow NB I se the Gray as also a Transitive Plane. For me, and my campaigns, the Gray is a bizarre blending of the Astral & Ethereal planes, to produce something that is at the same time both of those planes, and yet neither of them as well. It produces an impenetrable (sic) "bubble" that if found in the Astral Plane, I see it appearing like a giant gray pearl. It effectively cut off the Shadow Plane, which the piece of the Shadow Plane that is within the Gray, is known as the Black. The Black, however, has developed in and of itself, to become something a bit different from the Shadow Plane... as it also seems to serve as a realm of nightmares. By severing the Transitive Planes, and by proxy, any access to any of the Outer Planes, the Gray is a barrier that stops deities from being able to reach Athas (thus there are no gods), however it also stops the souls of the dead from reaching the Outer Planes and becoming petitioners... the souls of the dead become trapped in the Gray, and eventually dissolve into nothingness. This continuous supply of "death energy" has pulled the Gray into alignment with Negative Energy, and the Athasian undead types are connected to the Gray. I also believe that this process resulted in the Gray absorbing the Negative Energy plane, or a good portion of it's qualities (with the Black taking the other qualities). With the Negative Energy plane absorbed, I also believe that the Elemental planes (and by proxy, the Paraelemental planes) absorbed the Positive Energy plane, gaining much of its properties, and also resulting in the curious manner which the divine spellcasters of Athas are able to gain their power through the Elements. I also tend to think that the Paraelemental planes have become "poisoned" by Rajaat, even if he isn't fully aware of his influence, due to the nature of Rajaat's species. "Normal" pyreen are intrinsicly (sp?) connected to the four Elemental planes equally (and as such, they are all druids), while Rajaat's twisted form is actually linked to the Paraelemental planes. As his mind became more and more distorted, the impact resulted in the Paraelements being less and less interested in the Balance, while more and more interested in their own personal power and acquiring it. The Hollow, as others have said, is for me, simply a Demiplane, stuck in the Black.