I'd love feedback, though I may go ahead and send it in later today for PrCAII consideration. Also let me know if anything doesn't make sense or seems to complicated (which would make sense since I'm writing PrCs when I should be sleeping).
Land Warden
"To restore Athas to its former glory we must use the defilers' magic against them. Use it wisely and the land will give up her bounty to aid you against her enemies. Fail her once and you too will wither to ash." - Gelina Arness, passing her wisdom onto novice land wardens
Land wardens are members of a tiny hidden order who have become convinced that the only way to fight the defilers who destroy the planet is through judicious use of arcane magic. Land wardens learn special techniques to counter the effects of defiling magic, as well as ways of bolstering or protecting the land against it. Nominally led by the mysterious pyreen Gelina Arness, most land wardens are solitary nomads, travelling the tablelands seeking out possible converts to their cause.
Most land wardens begin their lives as druids, before choosing to mix those talents with preserving magic. Some few land wardens start as clerics or rangers, though they are rare. Most land wardens are human or pyreen, though recent years has seen a few adherents spring up among the aarakocran and pterran communities.
Hit Die: d6
Requirements
Skills: Knowledge(Arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge(Geography) 6 ranks, Knowledge(Nature) 6 ranks, Spellcraft 9 ranks, Survival 4 ranks
Feats: Path Dexter, Improved Counterspell
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells
Special: Must not have defiled
Druidry and sorcery together?
A pyreen teaching this as a philosophy to better combat defilers?
Land Wardens as pyreens?
Not seeing any of it, and the class abilities - on a general level - don't impress me, or impress a change in thinking which could allow me to accept druidry and sorcery together in the same bed...
What do others think?
Additionally, there's already historical precedent for a Pyreen choosing to use arcane magic to further his or her goals. And given the vast number of people who seem to blame all wizards, preserver or defiler, for the destruction wrought by defiling magic, I find it hard to believe there won't be a couple scattered about who think the opposite, namely that preserving magic can be a potent tool in defense, or even the restoration, of Athas to it's former glory.
I also think we, as a community, have the possibilty to run into a dangerous rut, of sorts. If we limit our development only to those things which are clearly delineated in the second edition rules, we're just eventually going to run into a wall. If we expand it to those things that are suggested or hinted at by the published materials, that barrier is farther off, but there none-the-less. I think it's important to be open to ideas beyond those already presented in TSR's printed materials or we have a very real danger of stagnation. Personally, I find some of the most interesting projects to be those that move beyond what we already know of Dark Sun and create material that is entirely new. The mapping projects beyond the Tablelands are a good example of this, but I don't think we necessarily have to move geographically beyond the existing material to create new ideas. All this, of course, isn't to say I hold conversions or creations based on previous material in a lower regard. I enjoy those projects as well. I'm just saying that I think we need to, to coin a phrase, think outside the boxed set.
All that said, whether you like the concept or not, let's suppose that I wanted to use this prestige class for characters in a campaign of my own. Does it seem balanced? Under- or overpowered? What would you change, add or remove?
On the level of flavor, if you've read the novels, expecially those by Abbey, you'll get a strong sense that druids see - correctly - arcane magic as a spellcasting technique that drains the land of its life energy; preservers send part of the energy back into the land, but fluff-wise its suggested that many such preservers all casting at the same time and place would cause defiling. Druids are aware of the difference between preservers and defilers, but also see the potential for defiling in all preservers. Arcane magic is a monstrosity that goes against the natural order of the world. You might say Rajaat developped it so he could divorce himself completely from the nature pacts and elemental pacts that other spellcasters have to go through to gain access to spells.
As for a historical precedent for a pyreen choosing to use arcane magic, you're pulling at hairs here I think. The pyreen in question happened to invent the process, which - fluff-wise - proved to be more powerful than divine magic could ever be and thus could properly serve his ambitions. I never heard of another pyreen learning Rajaat's new science.
If we limit our development only to those things which are clearly delineated in the second edition rules, we're just eventually going to run into a wall.
That's a double standard: You said earlier that 2E rules allowed for half-elves to multiclass wizard/druid. 2E is not simply the rules, its the fluff and flavor of the books and novels, which accounts for a large part for the way the current adaptation to 3E was done.
I think it's important to be open to ideas beyond those already presented in TSR's printed materials [...]
We are. A good half of the PrCs in the Archive and Jon's PrC Appendix I are purely new creations. The point I'm making is that the fans who created the Archive PrCs attempted to follow the flavor and fluff of the 2E - with various degrees of success.
All this, of course, isn't to say I hold conversions or creations based on previous material in a lower regard. I enjoy those projects as well. I'm just saying that I think we need to, to coin a phrase, think outside the boxed set.
Understood
Note that it won't change our opinion on what is DS and what is not, whether the material is set on the Lost Continent Beyond the Silt Sea, or in a client village of Urik, firmly "within" the boxed set.On the level of game mechanics, even with a double spell progression such as that of the True Necromancer you borrowed, people will tell you its a bad move to multiclass in two full spellcasting classes. You are weak in both spellcasting styles compared to your character level.
So you feel as though the character would be weak? Going wiz 3/druid 3 and then into this PrC you're 4 levels behind in each spellcasting class. If you allow Practiced Spellcaster in your campaign, and I haven't run into many people who don't, you can pretty easily bump your caster level up to your character level in both classes. You may not have the spells that a single-classed spellcaster would in your place, but you're quickly going to make that up by the fact that you have two progressions worth. You're spells will tend to be lower level than those of a single-classed spellcaster, but if you select them right having a lot of lower level spells can still be pretty serious.
Additionally, this hasn't stopped prestige classes like this from cropping up all over the place. From the original Mystic Theurge, to the Cerebremancer, the True Necromancer, the Geomancer (which I feel definitely ends up weak with it's either/or spell progression). As well as classes that offer less-than-full spell or power progression in exchange for something else.
Do you feel as though what the Land Warden gets in exchange for the loss in caster level is inadequate? Would you suggest that I give them some more beefy abilities to make up for it? Do you have any suggestions or ideas?
On the level of flavor, if you've read the novels, expecially those by Abbey, you'll get a strong sense that druids see - correctly - arcane magic as a spellcasting technique that drains the land of its life energy; preservers send part of the energy back into the land, but fluff-wise its suggested that many such preservers all casting at the same time and place would cause defiling. Druids are aware of the difference between preservers and defilers, but also see the potential for defiling in all preservers. Arcane magic is a monstrosity that goes against the natural order of the world.
Here's the point that I was trying to get at with my big paragraph that you quoted. Yes in the novels, and even in some of the sourcebooks, you have druids who feel this way. You have a lot of them. But my point in trying to get people to think of things other than those already presented is that I don't feel the Novels and the Sourcebooks we already have necessarily present a complete picture of Athas. Out of the entire population of Druids on Athas, why is it impossible to believe that some of them view arcane magic, when used properly, as a tool to be used to protect or restore the land. There could even be a sense of reverence for it. The druid/mage asks the land for power to fight its enemies and is granted it.
You already have PrCs like the Earth Defender and the Restorationist. There clearly are mages who are as interested in restoring Athas as the druids are, there must be a reason they choose to use arcane magic, but by your logic above they never would. However, if we assume that there's a reason they do so, why shouldn't a splinter group of druids reach the same conclusions, and tap into the power that arcane magic provides?
Additionally, I assume you all don't prevent your players from having Druids and Preservers in the same party. But if all druids see arcane magic as such anathema, I don't really see how they could co-exist. If a druid can bring himself to work beside a preserver, how is impossible to think that one might attempt to use that power himself?
As for a historical precedent for a pyreen choosing to use arcane magic, you're pulling at hairs here I think. The pyreen in question happened to invent the process, which - fluff-wise - proved to be more powerful than divine magic could ever be and thus could properly serve his ambitions. I never heard of another pyreen learning Rajaat's new science.
Here again my point is that we shouldn't limit ourselves to only those things we've already heard of. Why shouldn't an ambitious Pyreen seek to use Rajaat's own magic to end the plague he brought down on the planet? I'm not suggest that Land Wardens would be welcomed within the Pyreen community, or that all Pyreen should suddenly take levels in this Prestige class. But I think it makes for an interesting parallel to have this order founded by one. And of course, that kind of fluff is pretty easy to change. If you really want her to be human instead, by all means do so.
That's a double standard: You said earlier that 2E rules allowed for half-elves to multiclass wizard/druid. 2E is not simply the rules, its the fluff and flavor of the books and novels, which accounts for a large part for the way the current adaptation to 3E was done.
My goal in pointing out the possibility of multi- and dual-classed druid/mages from second edition was to note that while no one wrote books about them they could have existed. Someone suggested that there ought to be multi-classing restrictions that prevented such a combination. My point is that that position is unsupported by even the second edition rules (as well as the third edition ones). The rules (and the fluff) never said Druid magic and Arcane magic are incompatible, and hence I'm not sure where people are getting that impression.
As far as sticking with the fluff and flavor of the novels. I understand this, but again I don't think we should limit ourselves to only those things that are mentioned in the novels. So no one wrote books about these people, and they weren't ever developed in detail. I'm not sure why that means we shouldn't develop them now.
It's not as though I'm suggesting that we write that Elminster taught Rajaat magic. Everyone has a different interpretation of what fits the flavor of Dark Sun. Some people really like Yuan-ti and Illithids and think they make great additions. Some people don't think they should be included. I don't think we should summarily dismiss either simply because they never showed up in novels or sourcebooks.
All I'm suggesting is that perhaps there are a few druids who don't feel the way you've suggested. I think it's unrealistic to think that every druid on Athas views arcane magic in exactly the same way. And I'm not suggesting that Land Wardens are right, just that they think they are. You could easily have a campaign, especially a group of arcane-hating hunters (maybe an Arcane Slayer and a Druid accompanied by a few others), which involved Land Wardens as enemies.
We are. A good half of the PrCs in the Archive and Jon's PrC Appendix I are purely new creations. The point I'm making is that the fans who created the Archive PrCs attempted to follow the flavor and fluff of the 2E - with various degrees of success.
I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here. I acknowledge that there is some wholly new development, though I'm not sure if you and I agree on what constitutes truly original work and what is new (and original) material that was suggested by previously published work. They're both important, but I think the former is a lot rarer that you seem to.
Additionally, you seem to be suggesting that I haven't attemted to follow the flavor and fluff of the original setting (though it may not have been your intention), which I have to take issue with. I think, once again, that simply because characters like this have never been mentioned before does not mean they don't fit the flavor of the setting. And perhaps my attempt falls in what you consider to be a lower degree of success, and perhaps I should stop trying to change your mind.
Understood
My response to this almost feels like a footnote, but I'll go ahead and make it anyway. My point was that I don't think original work must necessarily move beyond the Tablelands geographically, but that we should be able to come up with new ideas (be they villages, orders, ruins, races, monsters, etc.) within the borders of the Tablelands. My point was that we shouldn't be limited only to those things which have been written about, hinted at or otherwise mentioned in the original DS product catalog.
Just because a particular class combonation isn't disallowed, does not mean that it fits together well enough within the context of the setting to have a PrC. I mean you don't see any Barbarian/Bard PrC's do you?
That's certainly true in third edition, but in second edition they disallowed those character concepts that they thought didn't fit. It's why you weren't allowed to play a dwarf wizard. I still think the fact that it was an allowed multi-class in second edition suggests that it was considered at least "acceptable" by the people who wrote the setting.
But any way, enough debating whether I should have written it in the first place. Aside from a generic "split spell progressions tend to be weaker" there's been no feedback on the actual class itself. And if you find the idea so abhorrent that you can't give any, then I certainly can't force you, but I really would like it if people would try to step past their disdain for the concept and examine the class.
the whole thing with arcane magic, how ever it is used, is to drain the life from the planet, and therefore also the spirits of the land, further weakening the already fragile existace of the world. so how do you see a druid ever being OK with this? the way i see it, druids would only just barely tolerate preservers on their lands and would try to kill all defilers. so with this class idea, you are allowing the driuds to become the thing that they most likely hate the most.
as for your plee to have people look past the concept and examine the form and function of the class, well, how can those aspects be ignored when looking at the class. it is most likely that anyone who would even begin to review the prc already have, and because they do not like or agree with the idea, have chosen to not comment further due to their non-interest in the subject.
so, saddly enough, this is most likely the best it is going to get.
so let me get this right. you are basing the fact that this class is a good idea off of some material in second edition right. the edition that was flawed with inconsistancies, contradictions, and other ill formed ideas. just because they made the class choice available in the old dark sun, does not make it a sound decision.
No, I actually didn't even investigate the second edition multi-class options until everyone responded by saying druid magic and arcane magic were utterly incompatible. I based the class on what I thought was an interesting idea.
I was going to respond to your second paragraph, but I think I've already said all the things I was going to say. I can (obviously) imagine that there might be a few druids who would choose to fight fire with fire, as it were, and use arcane magic in Preserving form in an attempt to stop further defiling of the planet. I'm apparently the only one though, so I won't continue to push it.
as for your plee to have people look past the concept and examine the form and function of the class, well, how can those aspects be ignored when looking at the class. it is most likely that anyone who would even begin to review the prc already have, and because they do not like or agree with the idea, have chosen to not comment further due to their non-interest in the subject.
so, saddly enough, this is most likely the best it is going to get.
Every prestige class is made up of two parts, the fluff and the crunch. My plea was to have people examine the latter and, if necessary, ignore the former.
I understand that everyone who's responded so far feels as though this class doesn't fit in Dark Sun. I don't have a problem with that really, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. And as I tried to point out before as well, each DM's Dark Sun campaign is going to be a little different. The feedback I got was certainly enough to convince me that there was no reason to submit this class to Athas.org, so I didn't bother sending it in. I still however would like to know what people think of the mechanics of the class. Pretend for an instance, that I'm running a non-DS campaign that happens to have wizards who can destroy nature by using their magic. Now suppose I want to introduce an order of druids who use non-destructive arcane magic to fight the aforementioned mages. Or if you can manage it, just pretend that I'm going to use this class in my campaign, and it's in no way going to change or affect you interpretation of what is or is not Dark Sun. Or pretend that the class gives druid spell and psionic power progression (the relative power level should be the same). Then give me feedback. That's all I'm asking. I've certainly gotten enough feedback from everyone that this doesn't fit with other people's ideas of how Dark Sun works. I suppose everyone could keep telling me that they hate this idea, but, really, I get the picture. At this point, the best I'm hoping for is some discussion of the mechanics of the class. Which it seems is the one thing I can't get anyone to even talk about.
Y'all are acting like a bunch of harpies. Seriously, people, dude understands that some of you don't like the flavor of the class. No need to hammer MysticTheurge because of it. There's no need to persistently attack it, and/or him. Etiquette, people. The boards are about sharing ideas.
Addressing the mechanical issues and trying to give you feedback concerning the aspects of the PrC you actually want to hear about, the spell progression is solid, especially when bolstered with Practiced Caster and similar feats. The class abilities are could actually stand to be bolstered a bit, because they all pertain specifically to defiling. Maybe add some kind of ability like an always active aura affect around the Land Warden that makes any Defiler tapping the land for power automatically take 1 or 2 points of damage per level of the spell (FOR half, dc = 10+level of the spell the defiler is powering + the LandWard's Wis modifier). Almost exactly like your Invert Defiling, but as an always active aura.Something like that. It's a solid concept, I look forward to seeing what you do with it. Everyone who is bent on attacking it, just don't bother. There's no need to be belligerent.