I know these have been discussed before, but can I ask again, how do you think one of these works/appears/could possibly be exploited?
What are they, a swirling mass of elemental energy from just one plane or all planes simultaneously? Do they live a trail of destruction in their wake or do they pass silently? Or are they just dead or closed for business?
Show
The Dregoth Ascending part III adventure from athas.org discusses this, as Dregoth uses one of the vortices as a component for his Godhood spell
Alternatively, I had always thought about using some power to go back in time to cast the metamorphosis and bind to a vortex. As far as I know there is nothing special about being linked to a vortex other than granting templar powers. There does not appear to be any limit to the number of templars an SK can have.
Possible spoiler warning!
I guess I was hoping for something more dramatic,
but then again, this fits with the fact that the SKs (totally?) misunderstood where their power came from, because it was so discreet.
Like in Dregoth's Ascension III, I would think it more interesting for plot development if these beings had survived the demise of the SKs.
(and what was the relationship between the two: symbionts? hosts? other??)
and as Radnovius points out, the most obvious threat is that one could possibly be used to create a new sorcerer-king/queen.
I don't know what would be more difficult, finding one or figuring out how to use it for this purpose!
Well, this would explain a certain newly annointed sorcerer-king from the Paizo update being able to grant spells to followers.
Paizo?!? I had to look that one up.
I gather it's from an article in Dragon Magazine detailing Athas three hundred years after the events of the Prism Pentad. It doesn't seem to be very popular among people on the boards, am I right?
The emergence of another sorcerer-king would be an interesting development. Where does he rule?
The emergence of another sorcerer-king would be an interesting development. Where does he rule?
In Draj. It's Tec's "son", Alzetuk (sp?), who was put into place as a figurehead and puppet by the political powers of that city, is strongly alluded to not really being Tec's son at all, and apparently not very good with psionics; only for the Dragon & Dungeon magazine articles, somehow, within his lifespan, he not only became a powerful psionic manifester, but also arcane spellcaster, and without the help of Rajaat, became a Sorcerer-King, complete with his own set of templars. Without much explanation (if any) as to how this complete breach of the mechanics and existing information about how Sorcerer-Kings are what they are had happened. He somehow went from political puppet to superior being within his natural lifespan (and then had his lifespan extended once he became a Sorcerer-King, of course), even more, to a kind of being that is extremely rare, and requires a certain chain of events and individuals to make that even remotely possible, which makes it all the much more unlikely.
In the Athasian cosmology the inner planes are mutable and continuous, but seemingly not infinite. The relative size of the planes appears to correspond to the relative amount of the element on Athas. During the Green Age, the Elemental Planes were vast and the Paraelemental Planes were miniscule in comparison. Thus there were many places where the four elemental energies could converge along with positive and negative energies in just the right way to create a unique being, the elemental vortex. As the elements were sundered, and the Paraelemental Planes grew in scope, the conditions to meet this feat of creation could no longer be met naturally.
Thus, what I would propose is that in order to create a new living elemental vortex a dragon/avangion would require elemental life energies of powerful agents of the four elements. Mechanically the power would have to be drawn from character elementals of earth, air, fire, and water, who provided not only elemental life energy to fuel the spell to create the body, but channelled massive amounts of positive and negative energy to create the spark of life. Thus, two would need to be able to channel positive energy (good/neutral) and two would need to channel negative energy (evil/neutral).
Any that do exsist might be very hard to get to... say the middle of the sun or deepest silt and remember the SKs seem to have access to a vortex from each elemental plane. The one Dregoth had might be a culmination of all 8 that had become one when attached to an SK.
I know some don't care for it, but in Planescape: A DMs guide to the Planes they talk about Elemental Vortices. They're found at the heart of great conentrations of elemental power. Volcanic caleras, oceanic trenches, soaring peaksm and the deepest mines could hold them. They were stable since that much of a concentration couldn't shift much. They could even breifly come into being by sudden events. It could be that the vorticies that are bonded to the SKs were created that way or really were stolen from someplace else (shifted to them). Since they were located in the elemental's hearts of power there might not be anyplace powerful and pure enough to keep them anymore.
Any that do exsist might be very hard to get to... say the middle of the sun or deepest silt and remember the SKs seem to have access to a vortex from each elemental plane. The one Dregoth had might be a culmination of all 8 that had become one when attached to an SK.
Elemental Vortices are "natural" occurences
Living Vortices are creatures
Not the same thing.
WARNING - The relative size of the planes appears to correspond to the relative amount of the element on Athas. During the Green Age, the Elemental Planes were vast and the Paraelemental Planes were miniscule in comparison. Thus there were many places where the four elemental energies could converge along with positive and negative energies in just the right way to create a unique being, the elemental vortex. As the elements were sundered, and the Paraelemental Planes grew in scope, the conditions to meet this feat of creation could no longer be met naturally. Mechanically the power would have to be drawn from character elementals of earth, air, fire, and water, who provided not only elemental life energy to fuel the spell to create the body, but channelled massive amounts of positive and negative energy to create the spark of life. Thus, two would need to be able to channel positive energy (good/neutral) and two would need to channel negative energy (evil/neutral).
Following this line of thought, if abundance of elemental material was part of the original Origin of the Living Vortices, isn't it kind of feasable that Paraelemental Vortices could be in existence, but perhaps have gone unnoticed so far?They could actually prove quite useful, as well. I've heard opinions that by granting spell energy stolen from the planes, the SKs are depleting the Elemental Planes. It sits within the realm of possibility that newly transformed Advanced Beings could possibly bind themselves to a Living Paraelemental Vortex, and thus assist in the restoration of Athas not only by granting spells of a healing and land-rejuvinating nature to their priests, but also by directly draining the Paraelemental Planes of energy to do so.
Elemental Vortices are "natural" occurences
Living Vortices are creatures
Not the same thing.
The only sources of magic are life, elemental planes, the black, and the grey.
I suppose living vortices could be non elemental, but consider what we know about magic and the planes. The vortices are what allow the SKs to grant thier templars priestly magic, which comes from the elemental planes.
It's possible that they are manifestations of the black or the grey, but I find it highly unlikely. Life itself comes from the exact balance of the elements. To much of any of them and everything starts to die. The SKs tipped the balance along with all other defilers toward the paraelemental planes. When they became dominant, life started getting harder and harder.
Zmaj, you forgot Sadira the Sun Wizard. Aren't there some Cerulean wizards too now?
A living paraelemental vortex could be possible but probably never occured naturally. You'de just substitute silt, sun, magma, and rain character elementals for the process.
Zmaj, you forgot Sadira the Sun Wizard. Aren't there some Cerulean wizards too now?
I stand corrected :-) Teach me to be checking the boards when I'm supposed to be getting munchies for the group!
The only sources of magic are life, elemental planes, the black, and the grey.
I suppose living vortices could be non elemental, but consider what we know about magic and the planes. The vortices are what allow the SKs to grant thier templars priestly magic, which comes from the elemental planes.
It's possible that they are manifestations of the black or the grey, but I find it highly unlikely. Life itself comes from the exact balance of the elements. To much of any of them and everything starts to die. The SKs tipped the balance along with all other defilers toward the paraelemental planes. When they became dominant, life started getting harder and harder.
As fluff goes living vortices are only elemental in nature, they seem to channel elemental energy directly from all elemental planes in the way theyr unliving conterpart does whit one plane only.
if paraelemental living vortices are to be, i can't see any problem in theryr apparence...
Zmaj, you forgot Sadira the Sun Wizard. Aren't there some Cerulean wizards too now?
Having just reread Amber Enchantress, Sadira says the theory behind her new magic is that the Sun is the place where all life energy originates and so by tapping into that she's simply drawing life energy from the original, and more potent, source.
The sun paraelement seems no more powerful or weak than any other paraelement.
"There are no more vorticies. The binding of of the vorticies to the SM's will never occur again and there will be no new Sorcerer Monarchs."
-- loosely taken from Dragon Kings. aka Epic PC's Bible
No gods... no new SM's capable of granting spells.
Peace
Then the canon monster creeps in and reminds us...
"There are no more vorticies. The binding of of the vorticies to the SM's will never occur again and there will be no new Sorcerer Monarchs."
-- loosely taken from Dragon Kings. aka Epic PC's Bible
No gods... no new SM's capable of granting spells.
Peace
Please read DAIII, it has updated information on living vorticies. It is canon, since it is the 3.5 version of an adventure TSR was gonig to publish before they killed the line... :P
Not that this is a good or bad fact, but the Athas.org staff has had the opportunity to... alter... it's original content.
PC's were never meant to be SM's... how could one even fathom handing that power to one of your player... unless you felt like killing them.
I'll just keep on trusting in the work of the original writers if ye don't mind.
/tongue rjtrotter
PC's were never meant to be SM's... how could one even fathom handing that power to one of your player... unless you felt like killing them.
I disagree here. As soon as I read about the SM's I thought it would be really cool for a player to become one, or for a new one to emerge. I had already conceptualized a Kurn-like city-state long before the release of the revised edition. Just because someone grants the ability to have templars doesn't mean any will follow him. What's an SM without a city? I think it would make for an interesting game.
I think that the Prism Pentad shows that Athas is highly mutable and that when it comes to what is or is not possible, anything is possible. The whole point of epic characters in Dark Sun is that their actions alter the world.
Another thought on the vortices: Could it be that what bound the living vortices to the SM's was the use of the dark lens or the pristine tower?
Another thought on the vortices: Could it be that what bound the living vortices to the SM's was the use of the dark lens or the pristine tower?
Well both the lens and the tower were involved in the binding of the vortices (in my own campaing I houseruled that vortices were bind to champions at their creation, templars would came handly during the cleansing wars, so only the tower would suffice).
If I ever let a player to take control of a living vortex it will set an intresting plot twist....
Best bet is on a prophet situation, anyone remembers the Yary califfate in Mystara?
If I ever let a player to take control of a living vortex it will set an intresting plot twist....
I don't think I'd ever let a player take control of a living vortex, that would just make them ridiculously powerful. However, an interesting plot would be how to keep an evil individual from getting their hands on such a being. And I'm not talking about Atzetuk here, IMC I wouldn't have him still around in 300 years like in the Paizo article apparently.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't appear to me that a description of what a vortex is and looks like is given anywhere, including the reference that Dirk cites. I was hoping to find out/hear what people thought one looked like, if you happen to have the ability to see one in it's natural form. I guess it would in some way have to represent all the elements which it could draw power from, which would suggest it'd be an intense ball of light of varying colours, eh?
I don't think I'd ever let a player take control of a living vortex
Let me precise the idea:
Yes you guarnt spells to templars.
Yes You have a vague idea of when it happens.
No You have no mean of controlling it, may be in time....
Yes people look at you like a prophet, your followers gladly face martyrdoom for your cause!
No they don't understand when you tell them not to, Yes it is unwise to continue, since certain of them would consider heretical your beheviour... Yes a martyr prophet would be much more inspirational....
Yes you are allowed to cry mahahahahahahahaha :evillaugh
I've read it. Just not very interested due to the fact that it has been changed from the original teams concept.
I've read the original 2E, unreleased Dregoth Ascending. IIRC, all references to living vortices are, if not exactly the same, almost exactly the same.
Why would Dregoth have needed a new vortex anyways... one was bound to him when he was imbued with his powers in the Pristiene Tower?
"Votecies are exstinct."
-Find it yourself cause its out there
Peace and Love to all who believe in those sorts of things
Dregoth needed a new, seperate vortex from the one he has because he needed to manipulate it so its connections would change from the Inner Planes to the Outer Planes, a thing I believe he could not do with his own vortex.
Or he could have just been hedging his bets, not wanting to potentially ruin his already intact spell granting abilities.
The smartest move.
As for what they look like, I envision a sort of djinn-like whirlwind-looking thing composed of the four elements. It looks pretty good in my head, too bad I have no artistic talent.
It's not the first creature like that either. There was some prehistoric fish caught off the coast of Madagascar some time ago.
vortices are actually parts of the sun, which I see as (almost) the sole channel through which life energies enter Athas. Vortices can be created by ripping parts out of the sun by using the Dark Lens and the Pristine Tower
this sounds slightly like something I thought of when considering what a living vortex would look like (if you could actually see it),
If a fire elemental is yellow or orange or red, a water elemental blue(ish), silt brown... etc.
and if a living vortex draws energy from all elemental planes connected with Athas and the energy from all these elements radiated light from across the spectrum, surely the vortex would appear like the sun? (white light being a combination of all light colours*).
Note also that Sadira's sun magic is different from elemental magic, perhaps because it is really channeled through a living vortex, which resembles the sun, but doesn't defile as it gates energy from the inner planes.
*I could be wrong about this. I dropped Physics a while back
Note also that Sadira's sun magic is different from elemental magic, perhaps because it is really channeled through a living vortex, which resembles the sun, but doesn't defile as it gates energy from the inner planes.
I don't think that this is the case. If it were being drawn from a living vortex she wouldn't lose the ability at night. Also arcane life energies and elemental energies seem vastly different. All the nergy of life comes either directly or indirectly from the sun, thus one could postulate that the sun itself is the source of arcane magic. I always saw the vortices as extraplanar entities and not connected to the life force of Athas. Also the way the original material was written, suggested that these beings lived on their own and were attracted by the metamorphoses. The term now extinct suggests that there were more of them and that they died out, not that they were created by the dark lens during the metamorphosis.
Is there anything in canon that would go strongly against the following?
Proposition 1) The living elemental vortices are remnants of an earlier age,
when many noble races populated Athas and these races were led by the great ones. When Rajaat brought the cleansing wars the great ones found they could not protect Athas from this threat, they left, promising one day to return. Behind them they left the elemental conduits, or living vortices, that had become attached to them (or a part of them), allowing their followers to cause many wonders by invoking this elemental energy.
2) Rajaat was quick to exploit the shedding of the vortices, and found a way to summon and to bind a vortex to each of his champions, tilting the balance further in favour of his genocidal armies.
3) The vortices are in some way part of the great ones, and in their semi-sentience yearn to be reunited with them.
4) As the great ones have dissappeared from the face of Athas, their likely location somewhere among the inner and outer planes. In fact, the great ones have migrated to different corners of the cosmos, some to the elemental planes and some to the outer planes.
5) Upon the demise of the various sorcerer-monarchs, the corresponding vortex was released and migrated over the face of the tablelands and Athas, searching for the great one it had once been a part of. The vortices are sensitive to the whereabouts of the great ones, sensing the plane they are on and searching for a method of reaching them. The vortex attached to King Tec was searching for a gate to the outer planes and this is how Dregoth attained one for his epic godhood spell. Like a moth to the flame the vortex was drawn to Dregoth's planar gate...
Please bear with me. I would like to draw something along these lines into a campaign plot, but I don't want to clash (much) with anything canon. (Though I like the get-out clause that previous info given has been peppered with disinformation or just badly understood by others, including the SKs).
The authors of these great works took liberty to do just this.
Though, many will find "discrepencies" between what you propose and what we may gleem as the "truth/canon", unless you are planing to write something of such epic quality that it be included with the rest of the athas.org works (Godspeed and goodluck if this is your goal), don't put too much stock into "canoninity"
Peace
unless you are planing to write something of such epic quality
Eh, gulp! not really at that level but I am continuing to write up something that I wouldn't mind feedback on, and I don't really want to stray far from canon. Minor breaches of canon are okay, especially if it makes for a better plot! At any rate, whether for public or private use, I still would find ideas and debate on this subject very helpful. Thanks to all who contribute.
So what do these, excentric, creatures do.... they are drawn to it.
Now... lets get heavy...
Rajaat is focusing the power of the sun through the black lens into the SK and the "stream" travels out of the sun and through the astral plane to the inner planes... the unknowing vortex stumbles into the "stream" and ZAP!
A conduit is formed from the planes to the SK..
Where else have we heard of such a thing happening...?
Rkard focused energy from the sun... through the lens... and at Rajaat. Much like the hapless vortex, Tithian was in the "stream" and he became a conduit to the life-force of Rajaat. People can summon power "through" the Cerulean Storm. But where then is the other end of the conduit? Remembering that all spell energy on Athas comes from life, or the elements, I have no idea?!?
That is as far as my theory can get...
Peace
Of course as in any high level campaign one of the players the avangion wanted to research two spells: Transfer Elemental Vortex, which would transfer one of the creatures to him and Create elemental vortex which would give the effect of a limited amount of templars, 100 per avangion level. Both were powerful bt neither gave the player personal power other than to have followers (no raise to stats or other benefits).
3E has pretty much erased the notion of the NPC can do it but you can't with the epic rules. Prohibiting anyone PC or NPC from becoming an SK robs you of a great epic storyline. Especially because its in every DS player's dreams
The writing on Dregoth Ascending III regarding the elemental votex reminded me of the NPC can do it but you can't effect.
I am going to stick to my guns on the "Vorticies were living creature's" stance.
I like your explanation of how Tithian became a conduit for Rajaat's power. I have long wondered what the hell were the mechanics behind what happened to Tithian that made him part of the Cerulean storm. And I think this explanation is reasonable.
On the other point my original understanding of the living vortices were along the lines you described too.
Though if the attachment to the vortices was an accidental process of the transformation into a champion, then surely it would not have happened every single time? And surely if Rajaat saw it happen once he would have tried to repeat the process again?
So in my mind the process must have been deliberate.
And if it was deliberate then it could be done again, given one captures a vortex.
You could plead that Dragon Kings says the vortices are now extinct, though Dregoth's Ascension suggests that even the original design team envisaged the vortices surviving the attachment to the SKs and that they were still alive and released upon a particular SK's death.
Plus if you make them extinct it robs you of a great plot point.
I labour this point as I think it would be great to generate a campaign around this and would hope that we on the boards could come up with an acceptable description of a living elemental vortex.
Any takers on the issue?
The problem is that we're placing two roles on one creature. The elemental voticies are connected to the inner planes... and dregoth was trying to create a conduit to the outer planes, which are not elemental in nature. I think that the og. writers of DA missed this point.
And as such... where did the vortex that linked the cerulean storm to the elemental plane of water...
What I suggest, is that the creative minds that be... MAKE UP SOMETHING NEW!
It dosent have to be the same way that Rajaat did it... heck... we could make conduits to the Astral plane if we so chose... Just don't try to use the same mechanics that the church of Athas has deemed blasphemous.
Smiles mean youre kidding, frowns mean youre serious!
PS. Though I will say this... DA is seriously flawed in the fact that no binding to any votex can take place without the Dark Lens... lets see how DM's allow their would be SK's to recover that!
PS. Though I will say this... DA is seriously flawed in the fact that no binding to any votex can take place without the Dark Lens... lets see how DM's allow their would be SK's to recover that!
Now that you mention it, even then Champion of Rajaat template doesnt say that they get the elemental vortex attached to them.
what I recalled was that to make the Champions the dark lens was needed. The only thing about the vortices was that they were attracted and attached themselves to the Sk's once the metamorphosis spell was cast.
In any event DM's could say that there are at least 3-5 Vortices to use as plot devices. (Sielba, Kalid-Ma, Tectuktitlay, Abalach-re, Kalak) Perhaps hidden Sk's live beyond the ringing mountains or on the other side of the sea of silt, the dead lands, and so on...
It's possible that a freed vortex might merge with the next available advanced being formed, creating a new sorceror-king.
I had thought, as Pennarin has pointed out, that the vortices died when the SK died. This would mean no freed vortices being available to link with anything !
And as there are no new vortices ...........
Really digging into the meat of DS history and finding "Truth", thats why I troll the boards!
I had thought, as Pennarin has pointed out, that the vortices died when the SK died. This would mean no freed vortices being available to link with anything !
And as there are no new vortices ...........
Apparently the vortex does not die, because Dragoth has the one that used to be attached to Tectuktitlay in a JAR in Dregoth Ascending.
Apparently the vortex does not die, because Dragoth has the one that used to be attached to Tectuktitlay in a JAR in Dregoth Ascending.
Just had a quick read ......
My apologies TV. You are correct.
Hey ho.
I guess all thing change sooner or later.
But,
"none but the Champions of Rajaat have the power to grant clerical spells to their minions."
ohhh or...
"that linkage is not available to any one else attempting to become a sorcerer-king or dragon."
Sure, Tec's/Abalach-Re's/Kalid-Ma's Vortecies live on... but they cannot be used by anyone other than a Champion. (I leave Androphinis's out of the list because he is not dead, when he returns I am sure his followers will still be able to channel through him)
How many quotes do you guys need? It was never intended to be a tool available to anyone else. Our forefathers (the O.G. devs) have stated numerous times that this is not possible.
DA is not a trump card for poor literary research!
I had thought, as Pennarin has pointed out, that the vortices died when the SK died. This would mean no freed vortices being available to link with anything !
And as there are no new vortices ...........
Like TV said and another flaw in the thought that the LV's died with the Sks is the fact the Dregoth died, yet he is still able to grant spells to his followers!
Yet another contradiction - because when Dregoth was first killed and then his buddy and high templar (forgot his name) was able to cast a spell or perform a ritual that made Dregoth undead - which he should not have been able to do seeing as, as far as we know, all of his spellcasting powers came from Dregoth.
I love this setting!!!