Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 radnovius Jun 02, 2006 20:43:52	So I was thinking since the inner planes of Athas are connected anyways that there could be metaelemental demiplanes. There are no metaelemental beings powerful enough (at this point) to power clerics, and the Metaelemental demiplanes are quite small. Metaelements are combinations of paraelements with elements. These would link up all the planes except for those diametrically opposed. These are what I've come up with but would love some input. Some of them I really like other I don't like as much (marked with an *). Earth, Air, Fire Air/Magma = Volcanic Vapor Earth/Sun = Gem Water, Air, Fire Water/Sun = Spectrum Fire/Rain = Smog* Water, Air, Earth Earth/Rain = Acid* Air/Silt = Sandstorm* Earth, Water, Fire Water/Magma = Tar Fire/silt = Glass Now for the quintessential (literally meaning fifth elemental) plane: The elemental plane of Wood where the elemental vortices came into being. It is now quite small, but it is the place Avangions go in their little glass boxes during metamorphosis.
#2 Pennarin Jun 02, 2006 20:56:50	I don't like additional planes beyond those presented in 2E DS...but I would be ok - even like it - if there were transitive zones between adjacent inner planes, where elemental and paraelemental planar energies spill over and mix, creating what you described (weird elementals) and with the restrictions you described (no cleric can successfuly worship those particular elements). I suggest you use the 2E nomenclature as a basis, back then they had the quasielemental planes if you recall...
#3 radnovius Jun 02, 2006 21:43:06	That's why I called them demiplanes. Quasi-elements are a mix of +/- energy with elements: Positive +: Fire = Radiance Earth = Minerals Air = Lightning Water = Steam Negative +: Fire = Ash Earth = Dust Air = Vacuum Water = Salt I already saw the metaelements as transitive zones between elements, as you suggest, and paraelements across the way. For instance, Your walking along on the plane of fire and see bright mountains ahead of you, they look as though they're made of glass. You start ascending a mountain which has the consistancy of soft mud. As you go higher in altitude the ground becomes firmer. You find a cave and venture in. The cavern appears to be totally constructed of glass. The cave seems to go on for miles, and the heat seems to dissipate the further in you travel. Soon you see a light at the end of the tunnel. When you reach the opening you peer out to see a sea of silt. Behind you, you here a voice like shattering glass shouting in Ignan, " Die intruder!" You turn and see a large crystalline being just as a shard of glass whizzes by openning a small gash in your cheek. You've just crossed the Demiplane of Glass and been accosted by a Glass Metaelemental.
#4 Pennarin Jun 02, 2006 23:56:06	Now for the quintessential (literally meaning fifth elemental) plane: The elemental plane of Wood where the elemental vortices came into being. It is now quite small, but it is the place Avangions go in their little glass boxes during metamorphosis. This I don't like though. A nature plane, even in generic D&D, sucks IMO. The spirits of the land have a different origin than extraplanar, although I can't recall what it is. Ask XlopreDarkHelm for details, he's working on spirits in question.
#5 radnovius Jun 03, 2006 13:52:03	I wasn't too sure about the Wood plane myself. I had never heard of the origins of the Spirits of the Land though I recognize that they dwell on Athas. I'll have to ask XlopreDarkHelm. Here was some of my reasoning: The thought occurred to me that perhaps the nature-masters drew their powers from there unknowingly. When they then killed the ocean the powers of the nature-plane decided to limit those who could draw their power. They decided that their best bet for a booming ecosystem was variety, and so instructed the last remaining nature-benders to form the new races. The transformations severed their links with the plane of nature and the art of tapping into it was lost. Now the halflings of the Blue Age were pretty bright and so some figured out that there was a conduit to the plane of life from which nature benders drew power. Given one conduit some figured there might be others, and some found them. It was at this point that the first elemental clerics came into being. Then the defilers came. Defiling magic had profound effects on the plane of wood. The powers there no longer had representatives who could draw upon their powers. These beings came to Athas and using psionics and the power of the nature plane, bound themselves to the land and in so doing bound themselves to the living elemental vortices.
#6 Pennarin Jun 03, 2006 20:20:35	I can see the origin of your confusion Radnovius. Read the first part of the Timeline again, you'll see who the nature-masters and nature-benders are, when they appeared on Athas, and when did cleric first appeared as well. The apparition of the spirits of the land is before the first mention of druids, obviously, but the exact date of the event is not mentionned. One thing's for sure the spirits appeared because of the pact of Earth, Air, Fire and Water. Before that there were spirits on Athas but they didn't have much in common with today's spirits, who now control all four elementals energies, can bestow spells, welcome transcendent druids within their bosom, are masters of nature, etc... (This is what Xlorep described to me when we discussed it.)
#7 eric_anondson Jun 05, 2006 12:05:17	I enjoy these kinds of cosmological speculations. I myself have played with melding Mystara's cosmology into Athas's cosmology. Some of them I really like other I don't like as much (marked with an *). ... Water, Air, Fire Fire/Rain = Smog* How about Steam instead? The others I'm more or less neutral on... Now for the quintessential (literally meaning fifth elemental) plane: The elemental plane of Wood where the elemental vortices came into being. It is now quite small, but it is the place Avangions go in their little glass boxes during metamorphosis. Is this an exercise to add a "fifth" plane? Or one to wegde a nature plane into parallel status with the Athasian elemental planes? I worked with an alternate cosmology that brought in a fifth ... "planar foundation", for lack of a better word. That wasn't the point though, I just favor the Mystaran cosmology to the AD&D/Planescape cosmology in almost every way, so I wanted to use it in my Dark Sun games... The Mystaran cosmology has five Spheres, four of which are linked to the four elements. Time/Water, Thought/Air, Energy/Fire, Matter/Earth. Mystara has a fifth Sphere, Entropy. I just needed to come up with a background with what to do the fifth Sphere. But instead of adding a fifth elemental plane I posited that Entropy forces had invaded the elemental planes and by mere presence simply tainted the four elemental planes. Also note, there are no transitive zones between the elemental planes in Mystaran cosmology like people are familiar with in AD&D's Inner Planes. The links between the Material plane and the elemental planes are insuperable and the Material plane is where the elements meet each other on neutral ground. Mystara's Spheres are the general source of power for the Immortals, but the elemental planes are the building blocks of the multiverse. All five Spheres struggle against each other equally. I posited that the world of Dark Sun is one in which Entropy has nearly won out. So Entropic Earth would be Magma, Entropic Water is Rain, Entropic Air is Silt, Entropic Fire is Sun. I don't know if that is any help for your exercise, but I thought I'd offer my experience with my own cosmological play.
#8 radnovius Jun 05, 2006 13:05:42	Steam would have been nice but there was already a qausi-elemental plane of Steam. Some info on the elements: The five elements usually refer to wood, fire, earth, metal, and water in East Asian philosophy. In Western spiritual traditions such as Wicca, the five elements refer to Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Spirit. As it pertains to Japanese philosophy: The five elements are, in ascending order of power, 地 (chi) Earth, 水 (sui or mizu) Water, 火 (ka or hi) Fire, 風 (fū or kaze) Wind, and 空 (kū). This last is usually translated as void when referring to the elements, but refers Sky in most other contexts, and is therefore sometimes translated as Heaven. Sometimes a sixth element is added, representing Consciousness, or 識 (shiki). And we can't leave out Hinduism: The Panchamahabhuta, or "five great elements," of Hinduism are Prithvi or Bhumi (Earth), Ap or Jala (Water), Agni or Tejas (Fire), Vayu or Pavan (Air or Wind), and Akasha (Aether)