Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jun 12, 2006 7:36:33	Does anyone have any information as to how this actually works? It says in the timeline that in the 161st King's Age, Silt's Agitation, that the undead defiler Gretch discovered necromantic magic to replace the loss of defiling magic. Now my question is, does this Necromantic magic drain the life force of living beings instead of plant life to fuel it, or is this just a type of magic that replaces defiling magic completely? Seems to me that if it acted in the same manner as magic from say the Forgotten Realms that the preservers and druids would search for this kind of information so help save Athas from being destroyed by the defilers, or even that the defilers would search it out in earnest, since the terrain they were in would not effect their casting abilities. Any insight on this would be helpful since I am planning on making some type of conquest adventure on those comming from the deadlands into the Tyr region.
#2 mystictheurge Jun 12, 2006 7:44:56	"Necromant," which is an ability several creatures have in Terrors of the Dead Lands, says that it allows a mage to draw power from the Gray in order to power her spells. IIRC, it's an undead-only kind of thing, so it doesn't really solve the Defiler problem.
#3 pneumatik Jun 12, 2006 8:02:15	Going from the PClass Necromant, necromantic magic draws energy directly from the Grey instead of from living creatures. It's a pretty easy PClass to get into, so I can only assume that lack of knowledge is the only thing that keeps other spellcaster from learning it. I'm also assuming that you can "defile", or pull more energy than you absolutely need to make your spell more powerful, with it. If not, then then only reason to take it is if you live in the Dead Lands.
#4 Pennarin Jun 12, 2006 8:47:46	Necromant is a PrC which was "invented" in the Dead Lands. The fluff says it was so difficult to achieve as a discovery it took a desperate uber wizard a hundred years to achieve it. There is also an undead special quality equally called Necromant, mentionned in TotDL, and which allows undead to do the same as the PrC. The undead that have this ability are crimsons and wraiths - because thery live in the Gray - and the undead of the Dead Lands. Other undead outside of the region are unlikely to have the ability or the PrC. Just like Oronis is - fluffwise - the only source of the preserver metamorphosis spells, so are the Dead Lands the only source of the Necromant PrC. You have to be taught by an undead from that land to become one. The undead ability replaces a wizard's ability to use plant energy. In effect you become not unlike a Necromant PrC wizard, without the class abilities. The PrC itself, on the other hand, allows a wizard to switch at will between plant energy and tapping the Gray. You can only defile and benefit from the advantages of that method when tapping plant energy.
#5 dregonflyus Jun 12, 2006 16:40:42	What about a character that has levels in arch defiler and levels in necromant. Could he use his arch defiler abilites such as casting time metamagic and metamagic raze with the grey energy he is absorbing in? Also in the TotDL on page 8 it states "In the grey, a wizard can draw energy for a spell from an incorporeal undead. So potent is the undead that is acts as a battery of energy. As part of casting a spell, a wizard can make a touch attack against undead, dealing 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell to be powered by its energy. Is this saying that a normal defiler (w/o any grey spell ability) can use the undead as energy (to actually make a spell manifest) dealing d6 dmg to it per spell level or is it pertaining to wizard who could normally draw from the grey (meaning that he could drain from the undead and the grey as well)???
#6 mystictheurge Jun 12, 2006 17:29:55	Also in the TotDL on page 8 it states "In the grey, a wizard can draw energy for a spell from an incorporeal undead. So potent is the undead that is acts as a battery of energy. As part of casting a spell, a wizard can make a touch attack against undead, dealing 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell to be powered by its energy. Is this saying that a normal defiler (w/o any grey spell ability) can use the undead as energy (to actually make a spell manifest) dealing d6 dmg to it per spell level or is it pertaining to wizard who could normally draw from the grey (meaning that he could drain from the undead and the grey as well)??? It means any wizards: necromant, preserver or defiler. Sadira does this near the beginning of The Cerulean Storm when Borys' wraiths trap her in the Gray. She draws out their life energy and kills them.
#7 Pennarin Jun 12, 2006 17:40:23	dregonflyus, the wording is clear enough: Drawing more energy than what a preserver can achieve is only possible (according to the rules) if your energy source is plant life. The rules make no mention of drawing more energy from animal life, the Black, or the Gray, and as such you cannot do so. Even the Athasian Dragon PrC makes no mention of draining more energy from animal life. Nor does the Leech PrC. Such an action is reserved for wizards who choose to defile plants. Also in the TotDL on page 8 it states "In the grey, a wizard can draw energy for a spell from an incorporeal undead. Why don't you take this litteraly? It says a wizard, as in the Wizard class. Are you a wizard? If so, you can. What is says is that a mundane wizard cannot draw energy from any other source than plants, unless he's in the Gray and stumbles upon an incorporeal undead. Voilà. To draw upon any other source of energy you need a PrC (Necromant, Shadow Wizard, Shadow Templar), be like Sadira, or be an undead (with the Necromant undead special quality).
#8 dregonflyus Jun 15, 2006 11:48:14	Okay, i understand now. In regards to my first question... What about a character that has levels in arch defiler and levels in necromant. Could he use his arch defiler abilites such as casting time metamagic and metamagic raze with the grey energy he is absorbing in? Based on the rules I assume that the example mentioned could still use his casting time meta magic with his grey energy (because it does not require extra energy from what I gather from the Prc volume) and that he could not use metamagic raze with his grey energy (because this requires an extra 5' of defiling). I got this write, correct? If not, Ill just throw out/ erase all my Darksun stuff and retire. :surrender
#9 dirk00001 Jun 15, 2006 12:04:41	You can only defile plants, so any feat or ability that specifically relates to defiling wouldn't work. Although it doesn't specifically state that Casting Time Metamagic relies on plant energy, given that it's from a defiler-based PrC there's no reason to believe that it's *not* an aspect of defiling plant life. A DM could rule otherwise I guess, but it'd go against the spirit of the class to say the least. Maybe the next PrC revision (if/when there is one) will clarify. Also, Penn - the Dragon PrC does specifically state that "(Dragon Magic) is considered defiling and subject to all the rules thereof" - so technically speaking you should be able to apply defiler-based feats and abilities (at least, those that make sense) to it.
#10 zombiegleemax Jun 15, 2006 15:24:09	Drawing more energy than what a preserver can achieve is only possible (according to the rules) if your energy source is plant life. The rules make no mention of drawing more energy from animal life, the Black, or the Gray, and as such you cannot do so. Even the Athasian Dragon PrC makes no mention of draining more energy from animal life. Nor does the Leech PrC. It wouldn't be impossible to devise a feat or feat/item combination to allow it however, from what I recall, dragons in second edition could drain the lifeforce of living beings using their obsidian orbs to focus their defiling abilities, which also allowed them some freedom from needing plants. Just get some self moving batter...I mean, allies, and you're set.
#11 mystictheurge Jun 15, 2006 15:52:06	It wouldn't be impossible to devise a feat or feat/item combination to allow it however, from what I recall, dragons in second edition could drain the lifeforce of living beings using their obsidian orbs to focus their defiling abilities, which also allowed them some freedom from needing plants. Just get some self moving batter...I mean, allies, and you're set. There's a scene in Cerulean Storm where the Dragon "defiles" a whole Tyrian legion, killing them all off.
#12 Pennarin Jun 15, 2006 17:20:25	Also, Penn - the Dragon PrC does specifically state that "(Dragon Magic) is considered defiling and subject to all the rules thereof" - so technically speaking you should be able to apply defiler-based feats and abilities (at least, those that make sense) to it. There is no "You may decide to inflict an additional point of damage to all living creatures within your defiling radius so as to achieve a greater spellcasting result.", and as such there is no mechanic that allows you to defile "more" of animal life. It can only be done, with current rules, with plant life. You can only defile plants, so any feat or ability that specifically relates to defiling wouldn't work. Although it doesn't specifically state that Casting Time Metamagic relies on plant energy, given that it's from a defiler-based PrC there's no reason to believe that it's *not* an aspect of defiling plant life. A DM could rule otherwise I guess, but it'd go against the spirit of the class to say the least. Maybe the next PrC revision (if/when there is one) will clarify. You are quite right. The abilities, albeit not written as such, are defiling-based. I wouldn't allow an Arch Defiler preserving to use Casting Time Metamagic. It wouldn't be impossible to devise a feat or feat/item combination to allow it however, from what I recall, dragons in second edition could drain the lifeforce of living beings using their obsidian orbs to focus their defiling abilities, which also allowed them some freedom from needing plants. Just get some self moving batter...I mean, allies, and you're set. That is already clearly written in the Athasian Dragon class. It says you can defile even in places where there are no plants as long as people are there. Your defiling radius has the same size as for a spell cast using plant life. As long as one creature is in that radius you can cast. Athasian dragons can choose to power their spells with energy from living creatures rather than plants; when using living creatures, the “terrain” is treated as fertile. Casting in this way is considered defiling and subject to all the rules thereof. Living creatures caught in the defiling radius of the athasian dragon [...]
#13 dirk00001 Jun 16, 2006 9:55:59	There is no "You may decide to inflict an additional point of damage to all living creatures within your defiling radius so as to achieve a greater spellcasting result.", and as such there is no mechanic that allows you to defile "more" of animal life. It can only be done, with current rules, with plant life. Correct - that'd be one of those "doesn't make sense" cases. ...I was about to argue that not all defiler feats state that they rely on plant life (such as Agonizing Radius), and thus you could use Dragon Magic to fuel them, but after re-reading all the defiler feats I've changed my mind - The "dragon magic works like defiling" wording only applies to the fact that it has a radius of 5 ft. x spell level and for making your Spellcraft roll, etc. I submit to your greatness! ;) (Edit 1 minute later) Eh, crap...then I realize that Dragon Magic should cause the defiler penalty, such as would be increased by Agonizing Radius, so now I'm sorta back to the "some feats work, some don't" point of view. *sigh*
#14 Pennarin Jun 16, 2006 10:53:38	Holy mother of...!!!!!!! The damn board just erased 10 minutes of typing! I hit the Create List button, then it sure created a list but only after erasing everything! WTF? Dragon Magic works without relation to terrain, without relation to plant life. If a feat or class ability is based on either one, it doesn't mesh with Dragon Magic. What applies to Dragon Magic: What doesn't: What is uncertain: So that leaves athas.org with two things to do: - See to the wording of Destructive Raze or assure us it doesn't apply to Dragon Magic. - Mention if Efficient Raze also works with Dragon Magic. A Behind the Veil featurette within hte Dragon document might help inform players and DMs how Dragon Magic interacts with defiler feats.
#15 dirk00001 Jun 16, 2006 12:01:02	Shouldn't Exterminating Raze also *not* apply to Dragon Magic? The reason I say this is that, although the Benefit itself could be interpreted as "adding" the plant damage to the HP damage caused to creatures, the fact that the Normal: entry references damage done to plant life based on normal plant defiling should, IMO, negate this as a Dragon Magic-compatible feat.
#16 Pennarin Jun 16, 2006 13:03:12	Send an email to the Feat Bureau asking for amending of the language.
#17 dirk00001 Jun 16, 2006 13:59:52	Send an email to the Feat Bureau asking for amending of the language. What's the address for both Feat's and the Epic Bureaus? (athas.org appears to be down at the moment...or at least my issue-prone work connection isn't letting me get there) Here's my proposals for Feat description adjustments, the changes/additions notated in italics: * First, all Raze feats need to have "Special: The benefits of this feat can only be applied when defiling." added to them. Destructive Raze [Special] You can focus the energy you absorb from plants to increase the damage your spells inflict. Prerequisites: Defiler Benefit: Add +1 to damage per damage die inflicted by Evocation spells cast using energy gathered by the defiling of plants. Special: The benefits of this feat can only be applied when defiling. Efficient Raze [Special] You can gather plant energy more efficiently, utilizing the maximum energy potential of a given terrain. Prerequisites: Defiler Benefit: Treat the terrain you gather energy in as one category better when you defile. E.g. a spell cast in barren terrain (-1 spell save DC and -1 penalty to caster level checks) is treated as if cast in infertile terrain (no spell save modifier and no penalty to caster level checks). In abundant terrain the bonuses to spell save DCs and spell checks are increased by an additional +1. This feat has no effect in Obsidian Plains. This feat may only be used when gathering energy by defiling plant life. Special: The benefits of this feat can only be applied when defiling. Exterminating Raze [Special] Your defiling techniques are particularly damaging to plant creatures. Prerequisites: Defiler Benefit: When gathering spell energy by defiling plant life, plant creatures caught in your defiling radius suffer 4 points of damage per spell level. Normal: Plant creatures caught in your defiling radius suffer 2 points of damage per spell level. Special: The benefits of this feat can only be applied when defiling. Dragon PrC Rewording: And I propose the following change for the Dragon PrC: Dragon Magic (Su): Athasian dragons can choose to power their spells with energy from living creatures rather than plants; when using living creatures, the “terrain” is treated as fertile. Casting in this way is considered defiling and subject to all the rules thereof, including the ability to use Raze feats except where the feat specifically states that it can only be used when defiling plant life. Living creatures not of the Plant type caught in the defiling radius of the athasian dragon, when they are using dragon magic take 2 points of damage per level of the spell being cast. (0 level spells inflict 1 point of damage.) Dragon magic requires a piece of masterwork obsidian of a value of least 250cp as a focus.
#18 Pennarin Jun 16, 2006 14:34:30	Bureau of Feats and Skills
#19 radnovius Jun 16, 2006 17:53:47	Just to add my 2 bits. Dragon magic is defiling magic. The obsidian spheres required allow energy to be drawn from animals. Theoretically, preservers could draw life energy from animals given the know-how. Arcane energy is arcane energy. As I see it, the raze feats should reinforce this and be worded such that they effect the source of the energy the same way whether animal, plant, or wraith. Terrain modifiers should be based on life-source density.
#20 Pennarin Jun 16, 2006 19:19:49	I put 2 bits and raise you another 2. You need the Dragon Magic class feature to use an obsidian orb in a way that allows you to power your spells exclusively with animal life energy. The Leech prestige class can affect animal life when it casts a spell, but there must be plant life present to power the spell. The Leech cannot power a spell exclusively with animal life energy. (Jon is working on modifying the Leech so that both defilers and preservers can affect animal life. That way you can mimick what Nok does in the novels.)
#21 radnovius Jun 16, 2006 20:31:27	There was some sort of rod that let a caster draw life energy from animals. I really need to pick the novels back up and read them again. ITs all so vague and hazy.
#22 dirk00001 Jun 17, 2006 13:44:53	FYI I emailed my suggestions to the appropriate individuals, so thanks for listing 'em Penn.
#23 terminus_vortexa Jun 17, 2006 14:01:42	There was some sort of rod that let a caster draw life energy from animals. I really need to pick the novels back up and read them again. ITs all so vague and hazy. That was Ktandeo's Cane, made by the halfling chieftan Nok.
#24 Pennarin Jun 17, 2006 14:58:42	That rod is probably preserver magic mixed with Life-draining Radius. At least tht way Nok can have made the thing without being an uber powerful, artifact-capable guy. The other option is that its a minor artifact solely because it mimicks Dragon Magic.
#25 mystictheurge Jun 17, 2006 19:28:28	That rod is probably preserver magic mixed with Life-draining Radius. At least tht way Nok can have made the thing without being an uber powerful, artifact-capable guy. The other option is that its a minor artifact solely because it mimicks Dragon Magic. Isn't it's origin tied in with the Last Tree (First Tree? I can't remember which it is) the same way the Heartwood Spear is? I'm not entirely convinced that Nok created them; they might've just been "on hold" in the tree until they were needed.
#26 dirk00001 Jun 18, 2006 0:44:13	Isn't it's origin tied in with the Last Tree (First Tree? I can't remember which it is) the same way the Heartwood Spear is? I'm not entirely convinced that Nok created them; they might've just been "on hold" in the tree until they were needed. Last Tree. And that's my guess, although it's been repeatedly argued whether or not it was, in fact, Last Tree that made the Heartwood Spear, or if Last Tree even exists, and in either case the tree obviously didn't spit out a sphere of obsidian so Nok (or whomever) still would have had to "fiddle" with the kane, attaching the sphere, and changing it from whatever it might have originally been to the life-draining item that you see in the Prism Pentad.
#27 Pennarin Jun 18, 2006 2:49:30	The tree from which Nok removes the Heartwood Spear is not the Last Tree. Comparaison of the descriptions in The Verdant Passage and Psionic Artifacts of Athas leaves little room for doubt, if any. I would put the Cane squarly in the camp of Nok, who has been shown to himself use an orb, same type of orb used in the manufacture of the Cane. Btw, the Last Tree does "exist" in that it is an artifact written in a Dark Sun product.
#28 dirk00001 Jun 18, 2006 15:04:23	The tree from which Nok removes the Heartwood Spear is not the Last Tree. Comparaison of the descriptions in The Verdant Passage and Psionic Artifacts of Athas leaves little room for doubt, if any. Darnit, you're right - I remembered Verdant Passage listing the 'great oak tree' as being at the top of a tall rock mound, with a spiral staircase leading up to it (which is how the little picture of The Last Tree in Psionic Artifacts of Athas illustrates it), but I just looked up that part in tVP and sure enough, it's Nok's "hut" that is on a rock mound with a staircase, and the oak is just growing beside it. So nevermind. *sigh*
#29 Pennarin Jun 18, 2006 16:27:09	Take comfort in that you're not the first to make the link between the two. Just remember that the link as mentionned in the Last Tree's description is one of several suggestions, i.e. the unknown speaker who relates what he knows of the Last Tree does not know if there is indeed a link between Tree and Spear.
#30 dirk00001 Jun 18, 2006 22:06:58	Part of my linking the two stems from my take on Nok as being a rain cleric, and the relation between rain clerics and Last Tree, etc. As I recall from the Nok thread, however, it was noted that Psionic Artifacts was thrown together as TSR was falling apart so how much you wanted to consider it canon was debatable.