I've been playing with linking maps up and I've found an oddity with the location of Landfall v.s Helskir.
On most of the maps, Landfall is well south of Helskir (~60 miles) but if you take the Wendar/Denagoth map from X11 and line it up with the usual IoD and KW maps, Landfall isn't there. According to the X11 map it's off to the top, considerably North of where it should be. Even the coastline isn't quite right. Certainly linking the X11 map with the Test of the Warlords Norwold map is very difficult.
I think it's the X11 map that's at fault but the coastline of the IoD on the TotW map isn't great either.
Has anyone else encountered this or have any thoughts?
LJ.
I think it's the X11 map that's at fault but the coastline of the IoD on the TotW map isn't great either.
Unfortunately, none of the maps is perfect -- while the X11 map is certainly not correct, the other maps often ignore Denagoth.
On the Italian MMB, Zendrolion has posted this map of Norwold (designed by fellow Italian mmber Zompatore), which offers a solution for the area.
[edit: correct attribution for the map]
Unfortunately, none of the maps is perfect -- while the X11 map is certainly not correct, the other maps often ignore Denagoth.
On the Italian MMB, Zendrolion has posted this map of Norwold, which offers a solution for the area.
I am seriously considering learning Italian just to be able to join the discussions over at those forums...
Håvard
I am seriously considering learning Italian just to be able to join the discussions over at those forums...
Somehow it makes me feel a little saner to know that I'm not the only one who has thought this.
Either that, or it means that I will not be alone when the men in white coats come to take me away. ;) :D
Somehow it makes me feel a little saner to know that I'm not the only one who has thought this.
Either that, or it means that I will not be alone when the men in white coats come to take me away. ;) :D
Yes, see you at the funny farm then! ;)
Annoyingly enough, my understanding of latin languages is good enough to get a decent understanding of what the Italian MMB discussions are about, but ofcourse, all the interesting parts are lost
Håvard
For this reason, I have yet to attempt to tackle the problem myself. And for the same reason I still haven't released my Heldann map...
You can see the result on Geoff's Norwold map for the 1015 almanac.
As I recall, the later maps of Heldann, with the outward jutting peninsula, were also part of the problem, as they didn't precisely match up with previous sources (or even contemporaneous ones).
On the Italian MMB, Zendrolion has posted this map of Norwold, which offers a solution for the area.
Interesting- do you know if Zendrolion came up with that through independent work, or if he used the Kamminer Bay solution? I ask mainly because I think that is approximately the result anyone would get linking the two maps, but if it was an independent result that would lend even more legitimacy to the concept.
I am seriously considering learning Italian just to be able to join the discussions over at those forums...
Why not try this?
http://babelfish.altavista.com/
(Or similar programs)- unfortunately for me, the translated pages are blocked here at work for questionable/illegal/gambling??? I'll try it when I get home, though.
it seems that this is the biggest consistency problem when it comes to mapping out Mystara. Various cartographers have made maps that present different solutions to the problem, but the simple fact is that there is no simple solution for this one without a lot of fiddling
Here's a listing of two of these problems Mystaran maps suffer.
Problem #1 The original map of Mystara (which we know is a copy of the earth 64 mio years ago), due to the fact that is a representation of a round object on paper. This alone leads to a spacial distortion of the distances and shapes of the terrain (As you might know Greenland is not the same size as Africa, although it might look that way on so maps of the Earth.... :p ), and the larger area you want on your map, the bigger the distortion of distances and shapes. So when maps are drawn, the projection of the area is specific to limit the areas spacial distortion. So when we try to project the Isle of Dawn map and Norworld map together. We will have to take into account that the individual maps projection.
Problem #2 Hexes! Yes I know! We all know and love this iconic Mystara map feature. But to tell the truth hexes would only be good if Mystara was flat and had hexagonic shape.
So if we want to draw (large scale) maps that are "realistic" we have to take these things into account.
Finally I am sorry that you had to suffer all this, but hey I have had a cartography class at some point at uni.... ;) I hope you could use my ramblings.
My 2 cents
Sorry for the lack of hexes, this is background stuff I had been using for some other maps and I needed the image hex-free at the time. [Shawn, I wouldn't bother posting this to the vault. I never really intended this for public consumption.]
The Isle of Dawn is not shown explicitly, but you should be able to see the coastline.
The map was made from all available official maps plus Andrew's (or was it Geoff's) map of Norwold that included Kamminer Bay.
The guiding principles were
1) Isle of Dawn scale was that as given in DoE, with small scale placing as per the Eastern Trailmap.
2) X11 was correct for Heldann* and everything west of the eastern Menguls (what is now the Kithor Mountains as per Denizens of Denagoth)
3) The position of Helskir relative to Oceansend was maintained. So using CM1 and the unofficial Norwold map, I placed in the rest of Norwold's coastline down to Heldann. Conflicts between CM1 and unprotected parts of X11 were feathered together.
You'll notice similarities with what was produced over at the Italian boards.
On Jakob's point about map projection problems: my suggested convention is that a hex's NS distance remain a constant (8, 24, 72mph) and allow the width to be distorted so that a hex directly about another is always due north.
I have off and on fiddled with a mathematical model for creating a smooth surface with polar holes that are based on extending the ecliptic (XY) radial length, thereby minimizing the relative distortion as you move up or down latitudinally. The advantage is that the error is generally less than 20-25% deviation from "Thyatian standard" between 50-60 degrees S to 50-60 degrees N.
For me, the main issue, is that the size and position of the IoD relative to the mainland is pretty clear (locked down by a number of maps). Similarly, the position of Wendar and Denagoth is pretty clear. In both cases they match up nicely.
The major difficulty comes from the CM1 map's position of Helskir and the X11 map's position of Landfall. To be honest I think the second was just a mistake because it's SO far off where it should be. Helskir's more difficult as the Norwold map places it about 30 miles north of where it should be.
My solution was to use the Norwold map coastline and Lanfdfall position and the Wend/Denagoth interior, keeping Helskir where the IoD map says it should be.
This forms a coastline pretty similar to that shown in the 48 m/hex maps. And I agree with the above that a bay across the Heldann/Landfall border is the inevitable result of this approach.
Which reminds me, Thorf are there any plans to do replicas of the 72m/hex PWA maps as these show some regions not covered anywhere else (specifically Davania and Skothar)?
Cheersm
LJ.
The only maps that I know of that included projections of Mystara are the world maps that came with the Hollow World set, and were later reprinted in the Cyclopedia. There may be one or two more, but the rest ignore the fact that Mystara is a sphere and treat it as if it were flat.
Moreover, the maps which join up to show large areas of the world do so without taking Mystara's spherical nature into account. Thus we have a large section of Brun, stretching from the southwestern reaches to the northeast, all joined together in hexagonal glory. ;) And the Hollow World map of Iciria is the same, providing a map of about a third of the world as if it were just a flat entity.
Because of this, it seems to me that it's pointless to put the Norwold problem down to projection issues, because none of the maps in question take projection into account anyway.
By the way, as I have stated in my (monster) mapping thread, I am all for incorporating more realism into Mystaran maps, but I am totally clueless as to how to accomplish it. At the same time, I think that roleplayers need functional maps rather than realistic maps, and I'm not sure that it's worth the tremendous bother it may cause us to make Mystara's maps realistic.
One last point, about hexes - I don't think that they are really a problem. They are no worse than squares, nor indeed than hex-less and square-less maps which include a fixed scale.
(Note: My apologies if any of this sounded overbearing; I did not mean it to, and in fact I am open and eager for discussion on this subject. But at the same time I have to believe that my current attitude is valid, or I will lose faith in my mapping. ;) )
I may post my solution at some point. It's formed via Thorf's 24 m/hex Norwold, Wendar/Denagoth, IoD and WotI-KW maps.
I would be very interested to see what you came up with. The more people who tackle this problem, the better.
For me, the main issue, is that the size and position of the IoD relative to the mainland is pretty clear (locked down by a number of maps). Similarly, the position of Wendar and Denagoth is pretty clear. In both cases they match up nicely.
I agree with you, the Isle of Dawn's position is set in stone. My idea thus far has been to simply ignore the appearance of the Isle of Dawn on the Norwold maps. Your idea of using landmarks (i.e. settlements) to line things up actually is new to me - believe it or not I haven't yet tried that approach. (So far I have been trying to line things up using other sources such as small-scale maps.)
Which reminds me, Thorf are there any plans to do replicas of the 72m/hex PWA maps as these show some regions not covered anywhere else (specifically Davania and Skothar)?
Yes indeed. Although right now I don't think they're very high on my list, due to my general dislike of the 72 mi per hex maps - most of them seem to introduce surprisingly large discrepancies when overlaid with the larger-scale 24 and 8 mi per hex maps.
Interesting- do you know if Zendrolion came up with that through independent work, or if he used the Kamminer Bay solution? I ask mainly because I think that is approximately the result anyone would get linking the two maps, but if it was an independent result that would lend even more legitimacy to the concept.
No idea. The author (I've checked, it's actually Zompatore, Zendrolion just reposted the map with added national borders) was probably aware of Geoff's work. Anyway, I'll ask him on the Italian board.
Actually, to solve the coastline problem we found that the simplest solution is to use the M2 Norwold map. Here is the detail:
http://it.geocities.com/lutetius2/Mappe2/Heldann_Landfall_M2.jpg
In this map the whole area south of Landfall Bay is visible. It may be easily matched with WotI 24miles/hex map, thus giving the Zendrolion's map above. Even the JA map of the Heldannic Territories may be used to check the correct shape of the coastline in the area.
As regards the isle of Dawn position and shape, we used the DotE 72miles/hex map.
We considered wrong the southern extent of Westrourke in the CM1 map and we preferred to use the more detailed DotE 24mile/hex and TM2 maps of the Isle of Dawn.
Sorry that I'm not a very active user of this board. Unluckily I have a lot of problems in accessing this site, due to my computer's firewall restrictions.
Although right now I don't think they're very high on my list, due to my general dislike of the 72 mi per hex maps - most of them seem to introduce surprisingly large discrepancies when overlaid with the larger-scale 24 and 8 mi per hex maps.
Yes I can imagine. Lining up the 48 m/hex map was bad enough.
To give you an idea of where this came from, I was trying to create a single continuous map from the versions available on your website. The original idea was to boost the 24 m/hex maps up by 3 and use the 8m/hex scale. Unfortunately that creates a 480Mb gif file - not helpful. So instead I'm using the 24 as the standard size. It comes out at about 6 meg which is OK. The only problem is that it would be nice to have a way to put the 8m/hex regions on without squashing them to the point of illegibility. I'm interested to hear if any graphics gurus have suggestions on how to achieve this.
Anyway, as I say, there are certain areas that only appear on larger scale maps. Either way, I'll wait!
In the meantime I might start work on creating a 24m/hex version of the Savage Coast as that only exists in 8m/h.
Cheers,
LJ.
I see this problem has finally jumped out! ;)
As Agathokles said, the author of the original Norwold map from which the one linked at the top of this topic comes is LoZompatore; his original map was made with Hexmapper, I've "only" reworked the map using Thorf's style (I hope you don't mind, Thorf :embarrass ;) ).
LoZompatore has already shown which were the leading issues of our version of the Heldann-Norwold-Denagoth region.
I'll try to add some details to what LoZompatore already said. The reasoning was based on the following points:
- The ONLY map that shows the relative positions of Norwold, the Known World and the Isle of Dawn is the 72-miles/hex map of DotE; something it's also found in TM2 and in WotI's weird-scaled map.
- The Norwold area is based on the CM1-M2 24-miles/hex maps.
- The Wendar-Denagoth-Heldann area is based on X11 24-miles/hex map. The coastline north of the Freeholds is in contrast with all other official maps, so it's to be discarded in favor of CM1 coastline. Not so the area west of the Menguls, which contains Denagoth and should be considered more attendible than CM1 map for the same interior area. X11 map should also be considered correct in regard to the Heldann Freeholds, but only within their boundaries.
- While the large DotE map sets the relative positions of Freiburg and Landfall, the CM1-M2 maps show clearly the junction area between Heldann and Norwold. They seem to coincide quite correctly.
So LoZompatore operated this joining between X11 and CM1 maps:
As you see, the eastern part of Denagoth overlaps with CM1 map's western area. X11 map should be followed for the Denagothian Plateau, south-eastern Menguls (the area which borders with Heldann), Wendar area (obviously) and the Heldann Freeholds within their borders, as previously said. CM1 would instead be reliable for the rest (areas north of Denagoth and north of Heldann). The Isle of Dawn would be positioned according to the DotE and TM2 maps, ignoring CM1-M2 maps (which moreover show the northern Isle in a different shape... ).
This way, you wouldn't throw away a single important hex of Norwold (even the swamps west of "Gunaald" lake - the southernmost of Norwold) would be preserved, and the river that flows into that lake would rise from the very Denagothian Plateau's border.
As for the Freiburg-Landfall coastline issue, LoZompatore considered reliable (for it being the most recent) the WotI 24-miles/hex map's coastline until it disappears over the northernmost edge of the map. JA's horrible hand-drawn map shows the shape of "Kamminer Bay" and suggests the presence of a gulf instead of a straight north-south coastline as shown in CM1-M2 map. With this in mind, LoZompatore traced the new gulf-like coastline without altering WotI map, and changing only the CM1-M2 coastline, starting from the second 24-miles hex SW of Landfall. This solution allows also the painless positioning of the "Forton" river shown in JA.
So this was the ultimate solution - with some further corrections - adopted by LoZompatore and shown in his wonderful map (drawn with Hexmapper). The region north of Wendar and Denagoth was drawn accordingly to DotE and WotI maps (also with some necessary corrections - basically, we've considered reliable CM1-M2 maps until they end at the Icereach Range, and then we've given precedence to DotE map). As said, I've reworked the map using Thorf's hex style and the result is the following (here's the link without names and national borders - please note that there are some minor hex corrections to be made, but very minor ones ;) ):
I'm trying to post my version of the area but can't seem to work out how. Am I being dim?
Could someone tell me how to do so?
Thanks,
LJ.
Hi,
I'm trying to post my version of the area but can't seem to work out how. Am I being dim?
Could someone tell me how to do so?
First you need to place the image somewhere on the web. Then, when you make a post, press the yellow icon that reminds me of a postcard for some reason, and insert the URL to the image.
There are sites that allow free uploading of images though I cant remember where exactly. www.imageshack.com perhaps?
Håvard
* The Heldann region is from the WotI 1004AC
* The IoD is from the single IoD map (with the relative position of the two worked out using the 8m/h Trail Map which gives an accurate relative position of the KW and the IoD).
* Denagoth is from the X11 map (location decided via the position of Wendar)
* Norwold is from the CM1 map (location decided via coastline and mountain positions along with the position of Landfall as shown in most of the larger scale maps).
You can still see the joins (I haven't cleaned this image yet) but I think that's a good thing for seeing where I've drawn the borders. The most important points for me are
* Helskir and Landfall are roughly where they should be relative to each other and Freiburg.
* The coastlines match up creating the bay shown in the 48m/h maps.
* The line of the mengul mountains joins up between Denagoth and Norwold.
Hope it's useful to see.
LJ.