Devils were never mentioned in Mentzer's D&D. Is it reasonable to assume that both Devils and Demons are servants of entropy, both making their home in Pyts?
Oh, and looking at the Fiendish Codex, would it be useful to define corresponding Demon Lords to the Entropic Immortals that do not already have such in order to make more 3E material useful and easy to convert to Mystara?
Håvard
In fact, when my campaign gets to epic levels I plan that all five spheres will have to join together to stop a devilish invasion of Mystara.
Of course some of the more extreme Entropic Immortals will look to use this to their own advantage. Why destroy all life in one reality when you can destroy it in two? :evillaugh
Regards
Gary
I use the non-canon variant that has the devils come from the Dimension of Nightmare and are that dimension's equivalent to demons.
In fact, when my campaign gets to epic levels I plan that all five spheres will have to join together to stop a devilish invasion of Mystara.
Of course some of the more extreme Entropic Immortals will look to use this to their own advantage. Why destroy all life in one reality when you can destroy it in two? :evillaugh
This sounds vaguely familiar, have we discussed this before? In any case I like the idea of the Lawful Evil Devils being the Nightmare counterparts of Demons. We could even have a "Bloodwar" between the ultimate baddies of each dimension. But ofcourse you are right, their common ultimate goal of evil may work to unite the two groups.
In any case it sounds like Hordes of the Abyss will be a good supplement to detail life in Pyts, dont you think?
Håvard
Regards
Gary
This sounds vaguely familiar, have we discussed this before?
Yeah I thought that I had come up with the idea myself, but later found similar articles on Pandius (which I may have read in the past and forgot about)
In any case I like the idea of the Lawful Evil Devils being the Nightmare counterparts of Demons.
And the diaboli look like your typical devil.
We could even have a "Bloodwar" between the ultimate baddies of each dimension.
It's a possibility but I also see the 'Forces of Good' getting involved in a trans-dimensional war
But ofcourse you are right, their common ultimate goal of evil may work to unite the two groups.
I'm not sure that would happen, at least not for a prolonged period.
On a related note
Another thing that struck me, but throws a spanner in the works is with having the devils come from the Nightmare Dimension is where do the daemons (yugoloths) fit in? If you put both the demons and devils in Pyts then you could put the daemons there as well. Crowded but fun. :D
In any case it sounds like Hordes of the Abyss will be a good supplement to detail life in Pyts, dont you think?
It sounds good for the most part. There has been some discussion on WotC and Enworld boards that the Demon Lords' stats are dissappointingly low. Still, I will be buying the book next pay day.
Regards
Gary
And the diaboli look like your typical devil.
Yeah. Ofcourse, the Diaboli are the Nightmare counterparts of Humans. Wouldnt that mean that the Nightmare counterpart of Demons should look more human?
It's a possibility but I also see the 'Forces of Good' getting involved in a trans-dimensional war
Absolutely. My reason for suggesting a Bloodwar was actually the reference to something like that in the novel Dark Knight of Karameikos. Ofcourse, that was part of the whole trying to bring Mystara into the AD&D cosmology, but its more fun to try and twist it into something a little more acceptable.
I'm not sure that would happen, at least not for a prolonged period.
Yeah. It would definately be one of those few things that would make a Kender go "uh-oh". (Kender? Wrong setting, right.)
On a related note
Another thing that struck me, but throws a spanner in the works is with having the devils come from the Nightmare Dimension is where do the daemons (yugoloths) fit in? If you put both the demons and devils in Pyts then you could put the daemons there as well. Crowded but fun. :D
Probably. Here is a list of the Major Planar races and thoughts on what Spheres they could be linked to:
1 Aasimon / Angels ---- (Any positive)
2 Archons ---- (Matter)
3 Baatezu ---- (Nightmare Entropy)
4 Demodand (Gehreleth) ---- (Entropy)
5 Eladrin ---- (Energy)
6 Guardinals ---- (Time, Thought)
7 Inevitables ---- (Time)
8 Modrons --- (Time)
9 Rilmani ---- (Time, Thought)
10 Slaadi ------ (Limbo/Energy)
11 Tanar'ri ---- (Entropy)
12 Yugoloths ---- (Entropy, Nightmare Entropy)
The above is based mainly on alignments of the creatures' home planes, though distinguishing between Time and Thought still is a problem. I figured Inevitables and Modrons, should we want them fit better with Time (Clockwork-ish?) than Thought. The Rilmiani ended up with Thought, though I don't know enough about them really.
I figured the Yugoloth, being Neutral Evil could serve both Entropy and Nightmare Entropy.
Håvard
On a related note
Another thing that struck me, but throws a spanner in the works is with having the devils come from the Nightmare Dimension is where do the daemons (yugoloths) fit in? If you put both the demons and devils in Pyts then you could put the daemons there as well. Crowded but fun. :D
The daemons could be based in the Spirit World, maybe (I forget if Gaz12 has the Spirit World as another plane like the Astral/Ethereal or just an Outer Plane)
More and more, though, I've been of the mind that the Demons and Devils should be their own group, and that the Demon Rulers shouldn't be (and should never have been) Immortals. I like the Gold Box version of the Dragon Rulers as possessing their own hierarchy and having their own delineation outside of the Immortal system, and am very disappointed that they were "folded" into the Immortal Hierarchy in WotI. Similarly, I think the Demons/Devils/Demon Rulers would probably work best in their own hierarchies outside of the Immortal power structure.
Essentially, then, I view the various Immortals/Dragon Rulers/Demon Rulers as simply being under an umbrella, if you will, of "Cosmic Entities" (the Draeden would fit in here, too), but each being its own subset of such beings. The Immortals have their strict progression of power/authority/levels, and their rules about how and when they can interact with "lesser" beings, but the Demons (for example) would not be bound by such restrictions, instead having their own organizations (or not- they are pretty chaotic).
They just don't seem to fit very well in the same structure as the Immortals, given their interests and proclivities, IMO.
I use the non-canon variant that has the devils come from the Dimension of Nightmare and are that dimension's equivalent to demons.
Regards
Gary
I also use this in my campaign, and used it to great effect with the 5 dimensional concept used in the Immortals gold box. Nothing disturbs players more than noticing further down a tunnel reality seems to fold into itself into two dimensions.
Oh, and whoever came up with the idea of the Outer Beings existing in non-consecutive dimensions is a genius. A perfect way to use the Far Realm materials as well as distinguish Outer Beings from the Dimension of Nightmares.
Oh, and whoever came up with the idea of the Outer Beings existing in non-consecutive dimensions is a genius. A perfect way to use the Far Realm materials as well as distinguish Outer Beings from the Dimension of Nightmares.
That was Sharon Dornhoff, actually, and I agree it was a really great idea. It was especially surprising to me at the time, as, IIRC, she was not a big fan of the Dimension concept from the Gold Box that we were all discussing on the MML when this idea first came up. Then she came out with that non-consecutive concept, and yeah- it was pretty cool!
Number one contains Demogorgon as well as Juiblex, Kostchtchie, and Zuggtmoy.
Number two contains Orcus as well as Dagon and Malcanthet.
Regards
Gary
Wizards have so far released two web enhancements for Hordes of the Abyss, containing aspects of various demon lords.
Number one contains Demogorgon as well as Juiblex, Kostchtchie, and Zuggtmoy.
Number two contains Orcus as well as Dagon and Malcanthet.
Interesting. What is the role of Aspects on Mystara? I noticed each file has information on the Aspects in the Realms and Eberron. Perhaps we could make some similar writeups for those aspects on Mystara?
Håvard
Regards
Gary
- The diaboli are the Nightmare equivalent to humans.
- The appearance of humans is unsettling to diaboli, just as the "diabolical" appearance of diaboli is unsettling to humans.
I imagine the following equivalency in regard to Nightmare outsiders:
Mystaran eladrins = Nightmare devils. Eladrins are the Chaotic Good outsiders of the 3e Great Wheel cosmology. They are human-like in appearance. In the Mystaran cosmology, eladrins would be the Nightmare equivalent of devils. They would be Lawful Evil, and would have the traits and powers of 3e devils, except for abilities dependent on the physical form of the 3e devils. Rules-wise, they would be devils polymorphed into eladrin form. There would be as many LE eladrin races as there are angel or demon races in the Gold Box. Each eladrin race would be paired with, and have the stats of, a 3e devil race of similar hit dice. Diaboli would be understandbly be afraid of these cruel human-looking outsiders.
Likewise, Mystaran devils = Nightmare eladrins. In the Mystaran cosmology, devils would be the Nightmare equivalent of eladrins. They would be Chaotic Good, and would have the traits and powers of 3e eladrins, except for abilities dependent on the physical form of the 3e eladrins. Rules-wise, they would be eladrins polymorphed into devil form. There would be as many CG devil races as there are angel or demon races in the Gold Box. Each devil race would be paired with, and have the stats of, a 3e eladrin race of similar hit dice. The word "devil" is cognate with "diaboli", so the name would be kept as-is..."devil" would be a good and happy word in the Nightmare Dimension.
It would be neat to have 0e stats for these races. In 0e, eladrins would be one of those few creatures who are Lawful, but are described as being cruel. Like the diaboli, the 0e devils would be one of the few 0e monsters that are Chaotic in alignment, but described as benevolent.
Shane Henry
I think I see what you are saying in regards to appearance- since the Eladrin look generally humanlike, their appearance would be frightening to the diaboli, while the appearances of the devils would be more akin to the forms diaboli would be comfortable with. I'm still not sure that that would have any bearing on their alignments, however- a devil is evil, and an eladrin is good; good and evil still seem to have their relative merits in the ethics of diaboli and human alike, even if their perspective about law and chaos seem to be different (and that, even, seems to be generally the same- law and chaos are still law and chaos, it is just that humans tend more towards law, while diaboli view chaos as more "natural").
I don't know- maybe it is the late hour here, but I am having trouble grasping the concept at the moment.
There seems to be two or three different understandings of the exact nature of this dimension. One is that it is little more than a parallell prime plane. The other is that it is a separate multiverse with its own inner and outer planes. A possible third understanding is that it is part of all of the existing planes, simply consisiting of creatures living in the dimensions of our existance that mortals cannot perceive.
Which one is it?
The answer will have a great impact on how devils, eladrim etc appear in the Mystara multiverse.
Håvard
There seems to be two or three different understandings of the exact nature of this dimension.
- One is that is little more than a parallel prime plane.
- The other is that it is a seperate multiverse with its own inner and outer planes.
- A third understanding is that it is part of our existance...
Which one is it?
Everything below is very much IIRC. ;) Its been years since I read the Gold Box - I really should get around to buying the pdf.
I'm not sure if was the only option given, but the Gold Box stated that the multiverse consisted of 5 dimensions. The 'normal' mortals existed in dimensions 1-3 (and used the energy of the 4th dimension as magic), the creatures from the Nightmare dimension existed in dimensions 3-5 (and presumably used the energy from the 2nd dimension as magic.
It was also stated that the Immortals were 4 dimensional. So. perhaps the Mystaran Immortals exist in dimensions 1-4 (and utilize the 5th dimension as magic) and the corresponding Immortals from the Nightmare Dimension exist in dimensions 2-5 (and utilize the 1st dimension as magic). Of course, this doesn't explain how Harrow exists in the same dimensions as the other Immortals; unless dimension travel is possible as well as planar.
And, of course, the Old Ones exist in all five dimensions. Where do they get their powers from? Beyond the Vortex?
Regards
Gary
Everything below is very much IIRC. ;) Its been years since I read the Gold Box - I really should get around to buying the pdf.
I'm not sure if was the only option given, but the Gold Box stated that the multiverse consisted of 5 dimensions. The 'normal' mortals existed in dimensions 1-3 (and used the energy of the 4th dimension as magic), the creatures from the Nightmare dimension existed in dimensions 3-5 (and presumably used the energy from the 2nd dimension as magic.
It was also stated that the Immortals were 4 dimensional. So. perhaps the Mystaran Immortals exist in dimensions 1-4 (and utilize the 5th dimension as magic) and the corresponding Immortals from the Nightmare Dimension exist in dimensions 2-5 (and utilize the 1st dimension as magic). Of course, this doesn't explain how Harrow exists in the same dimensions as the other Immortals; unless dimension travel is possible as well as planar.
And, of course, the Old Ones exist in all five dimensions. Where do they get their powers from? Beyond the Vortex?
I agree with all of this. What I am confused about is whether the Nightmare Dimension is a separate set of planes made up of dimensions 2-5 or just different parts of our existance. The confusion is strengthened by the fact that the dimensions were redifined in WotI and then again in the AD&D Mystara material where Nightmare became a Demiplane (suggesting some connection to Ravenloft). We could ask Mentzer about this over at Dragonsfoot. He might be able to clarify this.
Personally, I am inclined to ignore the 5-dimensional perspective (forgive the pun :P ) and simply consider Nightmare a Parallell Prime Plane where Chaos is dominant. This would lead to the conclusion drawn by Cthulhudrew that Outsiders are not affected by Nightmare. Harrow is simply the only Diaboli having reached immortality. End of that story.
A further consequence of this is probably that LaTerre (Myth) is also similarly simply an alternate Prime, meaning its immortals interract with Mystara's immortals which is somewhat different than what I had imagined previously.
It changes things, probably in line with WotI, though it makes the whole thing alot simpler.
Håvard
There seems to be two or three different understandings of the exact nature of this dimension. One is that it is little more than a parallell prime plane. The other is that it is a separate multiverse with its own inner and outer planes. A possible third understanding is that it is part of all of the existing planes, simply consisiting of creatures living in the dimensions of our existance that mortals cannot perceive.
The latter was pretty much the view presented in the Gold Box, but one that I have (much as I like it) more or less discarded myself in view of a simpler explanation. Currently, the way I view it is as a combination of your first two options- a parallel prime with its own inner planes, but sharing the Outer Planes with the "Normal" prime.
Of course, this view is at odds with the dimension and demiplane theories set out by WotI, G:KoM, and the recent Dragon article about Diaboli, so what do I know?
Certainly something worth disussing further, though.
It was also stated that the Immortals were 4 dimensional. So. perhaps the Mystaran Immortals exist in dimensions 1-4 (and utilize the 5th dimension as magic) and the corresponding Immortals from the Nightmare Dimension exist in dimensions 2-5 (and utilize the 1st dimension as magic). Of course, this doesn't explain how Harrow exists in the same dimensions as the other Immortals; unless dimension travel is possible as well as planar.
You noticed that, too, huh? When I first read over that stuff- and the later information about Harrow, I thought- that sounds fine. But a later (and more thorough) read through of the Gold Box shows that a Nightmare Immortal, while a four dimensional creature- shares more dimensions in common with Normal Immortals, but it would still have at least one dimension not shared by them, and they would/should still seem very alien to one another. A problem that would only be compounded when they travel to the Astral and "lose" one dimension each.
So, yeah- Harrow must still be pretty horrific even among the Immortal pantheon. (And doesn't WotI have him romantically involved with someone- Kythria, I think? Talk about pretty girl, ugly boyfriend syndrome...
)I'm not sure I follow the idea, exactly. Wouldn't Eladrins and Devils still simply be Eladrins (CG) and Devils (LE)? They exist in the Outer Planes as such, not in the Prime (where Diaboli and Humans dwell).
This idea would fit with the scheme that posits Nightmare equivalents of the Outer Planes.
"Mystaran eladrins" would be a different creature than Core/Greyhawk/Great Wheel eladrins. They would be LE and would have the malevolent traits and powers of devils (stats-wise, they'd simply be devils polymorphed into eladrin physical form). Likewise, "Mystaran devils" would look like Core 3e devils, but would be CG and have the benevolent traits and powers of eladrins (stats-wise, eladrins polymorphed into the physical form of similarly-powered devil races). Perhaps it would be clearer to call them "nirdales" and "liveds" since they are really different creatures than their Core/Greyhawk equivalents.
IMO, devils and eladrins, as such, don't have a place in the Mystaran cosmology. The Gold Box specifically included only Chaotic (evil) demons and Lawful (good) angels - both taken from AD&D1e. Mentzer could've included Lawful (evil) devils and Chaotic (good) eladrins in Mystara, but he chose not to, seemingly because the Mystaran multiverse manifested only along threefold Law-Chaos lines, instead of the ninefold alignment axis of Greyhawk/Great Wheel. Diaboli are not the only creatures in OD&D who are "good" Chaotics, nor would "nirdales" be the only OD&D creatures who are described as cruel/evil Lawfuls.
Shane Henry
This idea would fit with the scheme that posits Nightmare equivalents of the Outer Planes.
They could even exist more or less in the same dimension as the standard Outer Planes, just more unfamiliar to the people of Mystara.
The greatest evil known to the people of Mystara are demons, chaotic evil creatures who serve the Sphere of Entropy. The greatest good known to them are archons, lawful good creatures who serve the Spheres of Life.
The greatest evil known to the people of the Dimension of Nightmares, on the other hand, are eladrins, lawful evil servants of the Sphere of Entropy. Mystarans don't know anything about them, because the Sphere of Entropy doesn't use them to attack Mystara; they use demons for that. On those rare occasions when Mystarans have witnessed eladrins, they've been mistaken for servants of good because of their great (to Mystarans) beauty and because they're seen fighting diaboli, who are "obviously" creatures of evil themselves. The greatest good known to the people of the Dimension of Nightmares are devils, chaotic good servants of the Spheres of Life. Again, Mystarans don't normally interact with devils, though on those rare occasions they do they assume the horrific-looking creatures are servants of evil, particularly because they're evidently in league with the diaboli.
So it's all a big misunderstanding, really.
This idea would fit with the scheme that posits Nightmare equivalents of the Outer Planes.
Okay- I follow you now.
"Mystaran eladrins" would be a different creature than Core/Greyhawk/Great Wheel eladrins. They would be LE and would have the malevolent traits and powers of devils (stats-wise, they'd simply be devils polymorphed into eladrin physical form). Likewise, "Mystaran devils" would look like Core 3e devils, but would be CG and have the benevolent traits and powers of eladrins (stats-wise, eladrins polymorphed into the physical form of similarly-powered devil races). Perhaps it would be clearer to call them "nirdales" and "liveds" since they are really different creatures than their Core/Greyhawk equivalents.
Yeah, I think I was getting confused with the terminology, and whether you were going to still have "regular" eladrins and devils in the "Normal" plane.
I definitely can see your point about eladrins and devils not necessarily fitting into the Mystara cosmology- eladrins in particular (at least not without some reworking), but then again, I think the methodology Mentzer used to fit the demons in didn't quite work out, either (and was revised quite a bit in the WotI set; they went from being actual Entropic Immortals to just being "exalted" creatures who served Entropy; a pretty big change).
Cthulhudrew said:
Yeah, I think I was getting confused with the terminology, and whether you were going to still have "regular" eladrins and devils in the "Normal" plane.
I understand the confusion - it took me lots of verbiage to say:
"IMO, the only devils in the Mystara cosmology are Chaotic Good, and the only eladrins are Lawful Evil, and they are both from a Nightmare version of the outer planes*"
*The LE eladrins would be based out of the Nightmare version of Pyts -- I wonder what it would be called? Something similar, but not identical to "The Hells"...like "Pyts" vs. "The Abyss"...maybe "Blazen" or "Infyrnem?
The only problem is that some of the powers of devils are just plain evil (e.g. "Unholy Aura" and "Blasphemy") and some powers, while not evil per-se don't seem to fit with the image of a benevolent CG outsider (e.g. "Fear Aura"). The reverse is true for the would-be LE eladrins ("Detect Evil", "Aid"). So in my first post, I tried to come up with some way of changing the powers of devils and eladrins to fit with their reversed alignments. I suggested that the various devil- and eladrin-races be paired up according to Hit Dice (or Challenge Rating) and given the traits and spell-like abilities of their equivalent race.
After further thought, I think it would be better to keep it simple, and just change the alignments, along with the few powers that are alignment-based (e.g. "Unholy Aura" > "Holy Aura"; weapons treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned > good-aligned and chaotic-aligned; access to the clerical Good domain > access to the Evil domain), instead of trying to remake eladrins into devils and vice versa. The LE ghaele would have a gaze that slays good creatures. Maybe the CG pit fiend would have a "Protective Aura" instead of its "Fear Aura", and vice versa for the LE ghaele.
To that end, does anyone know if there is any 3e book or article that describes how evil outsiders can be "redeemed"? If so, these rules would be useful in making the stats for the CG devils and LE eladrins. Maybe in the Book of Exhalted Deeds? Or in the Eberron books, since monsters can be of any alignment in that setting?
Cthulhudrew said:
then again, I think the methodology Mentzer used to fit the demons in didn't quite work out, either (and was revised quite a bit in the WotI set; they went from being actual Entropic Immortals to just being "exalted" creatures who served Entropy; a pretty big change).
This brings up another topic...if a 3e Mystara were to be published, what would be its cosmology? IMO, 3e Mystara would take the best (most playable, distinctive, fun, nifty) features of the Gold Box, PC1 Tales of the Wee Folk, WotI, and 2e Mystara, and integrate and extrapolate them into a seemless Mystara-flavored whole. This was done for 3e Forgotten Realms (where it got its own tree-shaped cosmology), and Dragonlance (where in 3e, the few references to the planes, such as "The Abyss", are no longer shoehorned into the Great Wheel cosmology), and even the Core/Greyhawk/Great Wheel cosmology itself changed (such as the elimination of the para- and quasi-elemental planes). At the end of the AD&D2e era, Wizards published a mega-adventure, where at the conclusion, the whole AD&D2e multiverse (including the 2e Mystara reality, IMO), was reshaped and retconned into a new reality - the 3e reality. Thus, like the old Dragon magazine article stated, I see the official 0e Mystara as being a separate realty from 2e (and 3e) Mystara. The official 0e reality is sealed and inviolate - unless someday Wizards or a liscensee publishes 0e stats in a new Mystara product. The same is true for the (IMO flawed but not useless) official 2e Mystara reality. Only a few little pieces of the official 3e Mystara reality are manifest so far - such as the stats for Stefan Karameikos at the Vaults, and the stats for the diaboli and other Mystaran creatures that have appeared in various 3e books and articles. In any case, I feel it is important that the 3e Mystara reality pick and choose from the best of the various 0e (and 2e) conceptions.
Shane
P.S. I've found these posts by Sharon Dornhoff interesting in how they describe the scheme where the Nightmare Dimension has its own set of outer planes and Immortal hierarchy:
http://pandius.com/blckflam.html
http://pandius.com/out_geom.html
Shane
They could even exist more or less in the same dimension as the standard Outer Planes, just more unfamiliar to the people of Mystara.
The greatest evil known to the people of Mystara are demons, chaotic evil creatures who serve the Sphere of Entropy. The greatest good known to them are archons, lawful good creatures who serve the Spheres of Life.
The greatest evil known to the people of the Dimension of Nightmares, on the other hand, are eladrins, lawful evil servants of the Sphere of Entropy. Mystarans don't know anything about them, because the Sphere of Entropy doesn't use them to attack Mystara; they use demons for that. On those rare occasions when Mystarans have witnessed eladrins, they've been mistaken for servants of good because of their great (to Mystarans) beauty and because they're seen fighting diaboli, who are "obviously" creatures of evil themselves. The greatest good known to the people of the Dimension of Nightmares are devils, chaotic good servants of the Spheres of Life. Again, Mystarans don't normally interact with devils, though on those rare occasions they do they assume the horrific-looking creatures are servants of evil, particularly because they're evidently in league with the diaboli.
So it's all a big misunderstanding, really.
Hmmm. I'm wondering what the eirynn eladrin (Nightmare version of the erinyes devil) looks like, all of a sudden. Is it the one eladrin with horns, scaled crimson skin and a whiff of sulfur, so's to appear seductive to the diaboli?
Shane
Based on these facts:
- The diaboli are the Nightmare equivalent to humans.
- The appearance of humans is unsettling to diaboli, just as the "diabolical" appearance of diaboli is unsettling to humans.
I imagine the following equivalency in regard to Nightmare outsiders:
Mystaran eladrins = Nightmare devils. Eladrins are the Chaotic Good outsiders of the 3e Great Wheel cosmology. They are human-like in appearance. In the Mystaran cosmology, eladrins would be the Nightmare equivalent of devils. They would be Lawful Evil, and would have the traits and powers of 3e devils, except for abilities dependent on the physical form of the 3e devils. Rules-wise, they would be devils polymorphed into eladrin form. There would be as many LE eladrin races as there are angel or demon races in the Gold Box. Each eladrin race would be paired with, and have the stats of, a 3e devil race of similar hit dice. Diaboli would be understandbly be afraid of these cruel human-looking outsiders.
Likewise, Mystaran devils = Nightmare eladrins. In the Mystaran cosmology, devils would be the Nightmare equivalent of eladrins. They would be Chaotic Good, and would have the traits and powers of 3e eladrins, except for abilities dependent on the physical form of the 3e eladrins. Rules-wise, they would be eladrins polymorphed into devil form. There would be as many CG devil races as there are angel or demon races in the Gold Box. Each devil race would be paired with, and have the stats of, a 3e eladrin race of similar hit dice. The word "devil" is cognate with "diaboli", so the name would be kept as-is..."devil" would be a good and happy word in the Nightmare Dimension.
It would be neat to have 0e stats for these races. In 0e, eladrins would be one of those few creatures who are Lawful, but are described as being cruel. Like the diaboli, the 0e devils would be one of the few 0e monsters that are Chaotic in alignment, but described as benevolent.
Shane Henry
This stuck in my mind, and I came up with the following names and brief descriptions for Mystaran 'devils'.
Cehkuzhri Baatezu - These mischievous beings appear much like winged gremlins or small gargoyles. Their dark skins and multi-jointed limbs make them appear graceful and elegant to diaboli, but much less wholesome to Normal-dimension beings. Their sharp sense of humor and high-pitched erratic laughter only add to this impression, coming off as malevolent sadism to most Normal observers.
Nhalazai Baatezu - This lesser form of baatezu has a body made primarily of gathered Vischor, the Nightmare equivalent of elemental water. As a result, its skin seems continually slimy, oozing and befouled, and it continually 'leaks' small pieces of itself wherever it travels. In the Nightmare Dimension, this is a normal and healthy process, with the lost Vischor seeping into the ground naturally, but when trapped in Normal space the Nhalazai inevitably leaves behind it a slowly spreading stain of poison ichor.
Shirakhon Baatezu - A shirakon looks somewhat similar to a mortal diabolus, but is easily a head taller, and prenaturally thin besides. Several parts of its body are covered in a flexible, chitinous armorplate, and it has an unpleasant habit of being able to grow additional arms (up to four) at any part of its torso it desires, retracting existing limbs if needed in order to create a new limb somewhere else. It strikes without warning against the forces of Law and Order, fighting furiously against those who would use its power to oppress or enslave the less fortunate.
Bhaerakoss Baatezu - The bhaerakoss is squat and hunchbacked, its skin covered with patches of tangled, steel-grey fur and its mouth lined with a triple row of razor-sharp, sharklike teeth. In spite of its seeming clumsiness and compact stature, the bhaerakoss is capable of startling bursts of speed, and is savage and ruthless against anything it engages in combat.
Faajikai Baatezu - This powerful baatezu is continually surrounded by an everpresent haze of smoke, and has great power over elemental Blackflame. Its features and musculature are more slender and angular than that of a common diabolus, and its hair is a startlingly unusual color - most often pure white, but sometimes crimson, pale gold or steel gray. The faajikai possesses no less than three separate tails, all viciously barbed and unnaturally strong, but can disguise all but one under a glamer if need be, to better pass among mortal diaboli.
Gergazon Baatezu - The gergazon rarely appear in their natural form, preferring instead to take the shape of common diaboli and inspire chaos from within the ranks of these beings. In instances when the gergazon does assume its true shape, though, its presence is unmistakeable - almost unnaturally massive and muscled, with large spikes protruding from chest, shoulders, knees and ankles, and two pairs of eyes set one atop the other in its forehead. The power of such beings is not to be underestimated.
Trezathi Baatezu (Terror Fiend) - The greatest of the baatezu, trezathi take great pleasure in disruption, mutation and disorder. Each is subtly different in appearance, but they all have hide like liquid metal and four huge, batlike wings that extend freely from their bodies. Perhaps fortunately for the safety of all life, they rarely visit the Normal Dimension, and spend most of their time even in Nightmare apart from their lesser kin.
Again, all this is pure description and fluff work - so the 'Cehkuzhri', frex, is a coure eladrin - CG alignment, stats, behavior, powers, the works - except for its appearance (pleasing to Nightmare beings, abhorrent to Normals). Whether it'd be feasible to do the same with 3E devils is open to question - much wider range of original source, and a narrower scope of bodytypes to wedge them into. Might give it a shot awhile later, though, if nobody beats me to it.
Havard