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Templar spell rationale?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
eric_anondson
Jun 15, 2006 21:09:49 I was curious about the Templar spell list. It is obviously strongly based on the PHB cleric + select special spells unique to Templars or the setting.

But I was curious was some certain PHB (3.5 to be clear) spells didn't make the cut. Specifically for:
1st-level bane, entropic shield, hide from undead
2nd-level aid, align weapon, augury, desecrate, eagle's splendor, make whole, owl's wisdom, shatter, shield other, sound burst
3rd-level contagion, helping hand, remove blindness/deafness, remove curse
4th-level divination, imbue with spell ability, planar ally, lesser, restoration, repel vermin, sending
5th-level commune, righteous might
6th-level animate objects, antilife shell, banishment,create undead, find the path, harm, heal, planar ally, undeath to death
7th-level blasphemy, destruction, dictum, word of recall
8th-level antimagic field, create greater undead, dimensional lock, planar ally, greater, shield of law, unholy aura
9th-level gate, miracle

I can fairly well figure out most of the excluded spells, I only posted the ones I'm at a loss for why they might not be templar spells. I'm also trying to figure out why so many elemental air spells got left in the templar spell list, while earth, fire, and water spells were removed.

Anyone have some insight to share?

I'm in the midst of trying to write up my own spell lists inlcuding the Spell Compendium and PHB 2. I'd like to know what kind of rationale was used so I can keep it in line with the guideline that was used to make the published Templar list.
#2
Zardnaar
Jun 16, 2006 8:38:18 Not sure on some of your questions but if it helps I went through the spel compendium a few weeks ago and added these spells to the Templars list.

Add the following spells to the Templars spell list.
1st Level: Blessed Aim,Conviction, Delay Disease,Dispel Ward,Heathful,Incite, Inhibit, Rest, Resurgence, Sign,Resurgence, Summon Undead I, Vigor, Lesser,Vision of Glory,

2nd Level: Aura Against Flames,Body Blades, Close Wounds, Curse of Ill Fortune,Dark Way, Deific (Kings/Queens) Vengeance, Divine Insight,Divine Interdiction,Divine Protection, Energized Shield Lesser, ,Flameblade, Ghost Touch Armor, Hand of Divinity, Healing Lorecall, Infernal Wound, Living Undeath, Mark of the Outcast, Protection From Negative Energy, Protection From Positive Energy, Quick March, Shroud of Undeath,Spawn Screen, Spell Immunity Lesser, Stabilise, Stone Bones, Summon Undead II, Veil of Shadow, Wave of Grief

3rd Level: Aid Mass, Air Breathing, Align Weapon Mass, Anarchic Storm, Axiomatic Storm, Blade of Pain and Fear, Blindsight, Chain of Eyes, Checkmates Light, Circle Dance, Cloak of Bravery, Conviction Mass, Corona of Cold, Darkfire, Downdraft, Energized Shield, Energy Vortex,Fell the Greatest Foe, Ghost Touch Weapon, Grace, Knights Move, Know Opponent, Know Vulnerabilities, Lightning Bolt, Mantle of Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Nauseating breath, Rejuvenate Corpse, Resist Energy Mass, Resurgence Mass, Ring of Blades, Safety, Shield of Warding, Skull Watch, Slashing Darkness, Sonorous Hum,Spark of Life, Summon Undead III, Suppress Glyph, Tremor, Unholy Storm, Vigor, Vigor Mass Lesser, Visage of the Deity (King/Queen), Wall of Light, Weapon of Impact, Weapon of the Deity (King/Queen)

4th Level: Assay Spell Resistence, Blindsight Greater, Castigate, Consumptive Field, Contingent Energy Resistence, Delay Death, Glowing Orb, Make Manifest, Negative Energy Aura, Panacea,Positive Energy Aura, Recitation, Resistance Greater, Revanance, Shadowblast, Sheltered Vitality, Shield of Faith Mass, Sound Lance, Spell Vulnerability, Summon Undead IV, Undead Bane Weapon, Wall of Chaoe/Evil/Good/Law, Wall of Sand, Wrack.

5th Level: Aura of Evasion, Blistering Radience, Contagion Mass, Crawling Darkness, Curse of Ill Fortune, Death Throes, Divine Agility, Doomtide, Incorporal Nova, Lifes Grace, Revivify, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Sanctuary Mass, Stalwart Pact, Summon Undead V, Symbol of Spell Loss, Triad Spell, Vigor Greater, Vulnerability, Wall of Dispel Magic, Zone of Respite, Zone of Revelation

6th Level Bolt of Glory, Cold Snap, Cometfall, Energy Immunity, Ghost Trap, Hide the Path, Lucent Lance, Make Manifest Mass, Opalescent Glare, Planar Exchange, Rejection, Revive Outsider, Spider Plague, Resistance Superior, Vigorous Circle, Visage of the Deity, Zealot Pact.

7th Level:Bestow Curse Greater, Blood to Water, Brain Spider, Brilliant Blade, Consumptive Field Greater, Energy Ebb, Evil Glare,Fortunate Fate, Radient Assault, Renewal Pact, Restoration Mass, Spell Resistence Mass, Symphonic Nightmare, Withering Palm

8th Level: Brilliant Aura, Death Pact, Death Ward Mass, General of Undeath, Heat Drain,Veil of Undeath, Wall of Greater Dispel Magic.

9th Level: Plague of Undead, Undeaths Eternal Foe, Visage of the Deity (King/Queen) Greater
#3
eric_anondson
Jun 16, 2006 11:34:33
Not sure on some of your questions but if it helps I went through the spel compendium a few weeks ago and added these spells to the Templars list.

I had just finished with my own. But I'm still bothered why so many elemental earth, fire, and water spells were removed from the templar spells while elemental air spells were put in. I don't see the sense behind it and I want to know what the thinking was. I'm not saying

Also, you may want to alter your own list some. Of note, the Templar spells that relate to bringing life back from the dead should all be bumped up one level as PHB spells that do this are.

Here are two other questions I was grappling with when I was working my list.

If templars do not get planar ally, dismissal, or banishment spells, why should they get the planar exchange series of spells.

If they don't get spell immunity, why lesser spell immunity?

Anyway, these sorts of things I on my mind...
#4
jon_oracle_of_athas
Jun 18, 2006 7:46:03 The reason the templar spell list is shorter than other classes´spell lists is that the templar has benefits a cleric does not - most prominent being martial weapon proficiencies and 4+Int mod skill points., but also the sigil and secular authority. So it was a balancing act.
#5
eric_anondson
Jun 18, 2006 11:27:45 Oh, I'n not wondering why the list is shorter. That I understand. I'm wondering why each spell I listed is not a templar spell. My list is not a complete list of all the PHB cleric spells the templar doesn't have access to. It is merely a list of the PHB cleric spells I can't come up with a reason they didn't make the templar spell list.

Surely the decision to cut each spell I have noted above was not only "well we want a shorter spell list", although for balance reasons I full accept that as the guiding goal. If there was no deeper method, just randomly pick cleric spells at each spell level. But I would imagine there was some rational thought behind the ones which were selected so that the spell list could be shortened. I'm not questioning that they were selected, I just want to know what the thought process was for choosing these spells to be excluded and not others.

Alternatively, I am also wondering why elemental air spells were left on and so many elemental earth, fire, and water spells were excluded? Why not have an even number from each element be excluded from the templar spell access list?
#6
jon_oracle_of_athas
Jun 18, 2006 12:10:11 The spells were chosen on a rationale of which spells would be most useful to templars and their role. We did not consider the element of the spell in that regard, as an element seen isolated has nothing to do with a templar´s role. The ability to create water is relevant, not that the spell is from elemental water.
#7
eric_anondson
Jun 18, 2006 12:56:56 How about the investigator at the scene, or the protector of the city like the following suggestions:

Spells for the roll of the "investigator": make whole, commune, helping hand, augury, divination, find the path, sending

Spells for the roll of the "city protector": align weapon, repel vermin, dismissal, banishment, dimensional lock, antimagic field, antilife shell

Word of recall, is perfect to "return to templar HQ" when done with business, or when things go horribly.

Desecrate would be wonderful to deal with "unapproved" elemental clerical shrines being set up within the city-state.

------------

I suppose I could imagine the "planar ally" series of spells being rationalized that the sorcerer king/queen not wanting any of his templars making deals with extraplanar entities.

------------

What's the thought on animate undead, but not create undead? Is it a matter of the sorcerer king/queen being okay with mindless undead under the control of his templars, but not free-willed undead with a mind of their own?
#8
kalthandrix
Jun 18, 2006 13:14:26 Just another reason for me to finish my templar domains and SK domains - this will more then address this situation.
#9
eric_anondson
Jun 19, 2006 18:19:13
The reason the templar spell list is shorter than other classes´spell lists is that the templar has benefits a cleric does not - most prominent being martial weapon proficiencies and 4+Int mod skill points., but also the sigil and secular authority.

Say, I was just going back and reviewing, but it appears that clerics and templars both have the same weapon proficiencies, as of DS3r6. Templars have simple weapons and two martial weapons. Clerics have simple weapons, and depending on their choice of domains, can get far more than two martial weapons.

Templars get light and medium armor and shield (excluding tower). Clerics get light armor and no shields, but depending on their two domain choices can get all levels of armor and all shields (including tower shields).

So it seems that sigil, 4+Int, and Secular Authority are the primary weights given to templars over clerics, not the weapons and armor... which actually even out if not balance in favor of clerics.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 eric_anondson Jun 15, 2006 21:09:49	I was curious about the Templar spell list. It is obviously strongly based on the PHB cleric + select special spells unique to Templars or the setting. But I was curious was some certain PHB (3.5 to be clear) spells didn't make the cut. Specifically for: 1st-level bane, entropic shield, hide from undead 2nd-level aid, align weapon, augury, desecrate, eagle's splendor, make whole, owl's wisdom, shatter, shield other, sound burst 3rd-level contagion, helping hand, remove blindness/deafness, remove curse 4th-level divination, imbue with spell ability, planar ally, lesser, restoration, repel vermin, sending 5th-level commune, righteous might 6th-level animate objects, antilife shell, banishment,create undead, find the path, harm, heal, planar ally, undeath to death 7th-level blasphemy, destruction, dictum, word of recall 8th-level antimagic field, create greater undead, dimensional lock, planar ally, greater, shield of law, unholy aura 9th-level gate, miracle I can fairly well figure out most of the excluded spells, I only posted the ones I'm at a loss for why they might not be templar spells. I'm also trying to figure out why so many elemental air spells got left in the templar spell list, while earth, fire, and water spells were removed. Anyone have some insight to share? I'm in the midst of trying to write up my own spell lists inlcuding the Spell Compendium and PHB 2. I'd like to know what kind of rationale was used so I can keep it in line with the guideline that was used to make the published Templar list.
#2 Zardnaar Jun 16, 2006 8:38:18	Not sure on some of your questions but if it helps I went through the spel compendium a few weeks ago and added these spells to the Templars list. Add the following spells to the Templars spell list. 1st Level: Blessed Aim,Conviction, Delay Disease,Dispel Ward,Heathful,Incite, Inhibit, Rest, Resurgence, Sign,Resurgence, Summon Undead I, Vigor, Lesser,Vision of Glory, 2nd Level: Aura Against Flames,Body Blades, Close Wounds, Curse of Ill Fortune,Dark Way, Deific (Kings/Queens) Vengeance, Divine Insight,Divine Interdiction,Divine Protection, Energized Shield Lesser, ,Flameblade, Ghost Touch Armor, Hand of Divinity, Healing Lorecall, Infernal Wound, Living Undeath, Mark of the Outcast, Protection From Negative Energy, Protection From Positive Energy, Quick March, Shroud of Undeath,Spawn Screen, Spell Immunity Lesser, Stabilise, Stone Bones, Summon Undead II, Veil of Shadow, Wave of Grief 3rd Level: Aid Mass, Air Breathing, Align Weapon Mass, Anarchic Storm, Axiomatic Storm, Blade of Pain and Fear, Blindsight, Chain of Eyes, Checkmates Light, Circle Dance, Cloak of Bravery, Conviction Mass, Corona of Cold, Darkfire, Downdraft, Energized Shield, Energy Vortex,Fell the Greatest Foe, Ghost Touch Weapon, Grace, Knights Move, Know Opponent, Know Vulnerabilities, Lightning Bolt, Mantle of Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Nauseating breath, Rejuvenate Corpse, Resist Energy Mass, Resurgence Mass, Ring of Blades, Safety, Shield of Warding, Skull Watch, Slashing Darkness, Sonorous Hum,Spark of Life, Summon Undead III, Suppress Glyph, Tremor, Unholy Storm, Vigor, Vigor Mass Lesser, Visage of the Deity (King/Queen), Wall of Light, Weapon of Impact, Weapon of the Deity (King/Queen) 4th Level: Assay Spell Resistence, Blindsight Greater, Castigate, Consumptive Field, Contingent Energy Resistence, Delay Death, Glowing Orb, Make Manifest, Negative Energy Aura, Panacea,Positive Energy Aura, Recitation, Resistance Greater, Revanance, Shadowblast, Sheltered Vitality, Shield of Faith Mass, Sound Lance, Spell Vulnerability, Summon Undead IV, Undead Bane Weapon, Wall of Chaoe/Evil/Good/Law, Wall of Sand, Wrack. 5th Level: Aura of Evasion, Blistering Radience, Contagion Mass, Crawling Darkness, Curse of Ill Fortune, Death Throes, Divine Agility, Doomtide, Incorporal Nova, Lifes Grace, Revivify, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Sanctuary Mass, Stalwart Pact, Summon Undead V, Symbol of Spell Loss, Triad Spell, Vigor Greater, Vulnerability, Wall of Dispel Magic, Zone of Respite, Zone of Revelation 6th Level Bolt of Glory, Cold Snap, Cometfall, Energy Immunity, Ghost Trap, Hide the Path, Lucent Lance, Make Manifest Mass, Opalescent Glare, Planar Exchange, Rejection, Revive Outsider, Spider Plague, Resistance Superior, Vigorous Circle, Visage of the Deity, Zealot Pact. 7th Level:Bestow Curse Greater, Blood to Water, Brain Spider, Brilliant Blade, Consumptive Field Greater, Energy Ebb, Evil Glare,Fortunate Fate, Radient Assault, Renewal Pact, Restoration Mass, Spell Resistence Mass, Symphonic Nightmare, Withering Palm 8th Level: Brilliant Aura, Death Pact, Death Ward Mass, General of Undeath, Heat Drain,Veil of Undeath, Wall of Greater Dispel Magic. 9th Level: Plague of Undead, Undeaths Eternal Foe, Visage of the Deity (King/Queen) Greater
#3 eric_anondson Jun 16, 2006 11:34:33	Not sure on some of your questions but if it helps I went through the spel compendium a few weeks ago and added these spells to the Templars list. I had just finished with my own. But I'm still bothered why so many elemental earth, fire, and water spells were removed from the templar spells while elemental air spells were put in. I don't see the sense behind it and I want to know what the thinking was. I'm not saying Also, you may want to alter your own list some. Of note, the Templar spells that relate to bringing life back from the dead should all be bumped up one level as PHB spells that do this are. Here are two other questions I was grappling with when I was working my list. If templars do not get planar ally, dismissal, or banishment spells, why should they get the planar exchange series of spells. If they don't get spell immunity, why lesser spell immunity? Anyway, these sorts of things I on my mind...
#4 jon_oracle_of_athas Jun 18, 2006 7:46:03	The reason the templar spell list is shorter than other classes´spell lists is that the templar has benefits a cleric does not - most prominent being martial weapon proficiencies and 4+Int mod skill points., but also the sigil and secular authority. So it was a balancing act.
#5 eric_anondson Jun 18, 2006 11:27:45	Oh, I'n not wondering why the list is shorter. That I understand. I'm wondering why each spell I listed is not a templar spell. My list is not a complete list of all the PHB cleric spells the templar doesn't have access to. It is merely a list of the PHB cleric spells I can't come up with a reason they didn't make the templar spell list. Surely the decision to cut each spell I have noted above was not only "well we want a shorter spell list", although for balance reasons I full accept that as the guiding goal. If there was no deeper method, just randomly pick cleric spells at each spell level. But I would imagine there was some rational thought behind the ones which were selected so that the spell list could be shortened. I'm not questioning that they were selected, I just want to know what the thought process was for choosing these spells to be excluded and not others. Alternatively, I am also wondering why elemental air spells were left on and so many elemental earth, fire, and water spells were excluded? Why not have an even number from each element be excluded from the templar spell access list?
#6 jon_oracle_of_athas Jun 18, 2006 12:10:11	The spells were chosen on a rationale of which spells would be most useful to templars and their role. We did not consider the element of the spell in that regard, as an element seen isolated has nothing to do with a templar´s role. The ability to create water is relevant, not that the spell is from elemental water.
#7 eric_anondson Jun 18, 2006 12:56:56	How about the investigator at the scene, or the protector of the city like the following suggestions: Spells for the roll of the "investigator": make whole, commune, helping hand, augury, divination, find the path, sending Spells for the roll of the "city protector": align weapon, repel vermin, dismissal, banishment, dimensional lock, antimagic field, antilife shell Word of recall, is perfect to "return to templar HQ" when done with business, or when things go horribly. Desecrate would be wonderful to deal with "unapproved" elemental clerical shrines being set up within the city-state. ------------ I suppose I could imagine the "planar ally" series of spells being rationalized that the sorcerer king/queen not wanting any of his templars making deals with extraplanar entities. ------------ What's the thought on animate undead, but not create undead? Is it a matter of the sorcerer king/queen being okay with mindless undead under the control of his templars, but not free-willed undead with a mind of their own?
#8 kalthandrix Jun 18, 2006 13:14:26	Just another reason for me to finish my templar domains and SK domains - this will more then address this situation.
#9 eric_anondson Jun 19, 2006 18:19:13	The reason the templar spell list is shorter than other classes´spell lists is that the templar has benefits a cleric does not - most prominent being martial weapon proficiencies and 4+Int mod skill points., but also the sigil and secular authority. Say, I was just going back and reviewing, but it appears that clerics and templars both have the same weapon proficiencies, as of DS3r6. Templars have simple weapons and two martial weapons. Clerics have simple weapons, and depending on their choice of domains, can get far more than two martial weapons. Templars get light and medium armor and shield (excluding tower). Clerics get light armor and no shields, but depending on their two domain choices can get all levels of armor and all shields (including tower shields). So it seems that sigil, 4+Int, and Secular Authority are the primary weights given to templars over clerics, not the weapons and armor... which actually even out if not balance in favor of clerics.