Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ozyburrfoot Jun 19, 2006 11:21:18	So I'm giving another go at making some tweaks on DL to let new options work for the setting. Certain classes were not included due to mostly my own tastes, not because I didnt feel they fit into the setting. I'm going for changes that are concise and all encompasing, but still simplistic and easy to incorporate. I'd love to hear more suggestions on things that could be added or the like. Setting Changes During the Age of Mortals, several additional events occured. - The gnomes of Mt. Nevermind found a reliable process to create actual sentience in constructed bodies. They have dubbed these creatures the (war)Forged. - Along with ambient magics such as Wild Sorcery and Mysticism, the natural talents of Psionics were released within mortals all across Ansalon. - Some human settlements underwent transformations into Maenads, no explination has yet to be found. - The process of which to become an Elan was discovered by a group of newly empowered psions. System Changes Core Races (16 options) Centaur Draconian Dwarf Elf Elan (war)Forged Gnome Gully Dwarf Half-Elf Half-Giant Half-Ogre Human Irda Kender Maenad Minotaur Core Classes (29 options) (prestige classes are discussed on a case by case basis) Archivist (m) Ardent (p) Artificer (ws) Barbarian Bard, divine variant (m) Beguiler (ws) Cleric Divine Mind (p) Dread Necromancer (m) Druid, with Shifter variant preferred Duskblade (ws) Erudite (p) Fighter Knight Lurk (p) Monk Mystic (m) Rogue Psion (p) Psychic Warrior (p) Scout Sorcerer (ws) Soulknife (p) Spelltheif (ws) Spirit Shaman (m) Swashbuckler Warmage (ws) Wilder (p) Wizard , with UA specialist variants allowed (p) - psionic, (m) - mysticism, (ws) - wild sorcery
#2 ozyburrfoot Jun 19, 2006 11:21:50	To add more thought to my topic, here's a list of stuff I considered adding in, but couldnt come up with a very good reason for them to exist. Classes Incarnate Soulborn Totemist Warlock (everytime I think about this class as a DM, it just seems like a cheapo blaster class) Races Changeling Dromite Goliath Illumian Kalashtar (dont want to include the whole Quori stuff and the Dreaming Dark, so not sure what can be done with them) Raptoran Shifter (especially a problem due to no lycanthropes) Thri-Keen Xeph Monsters Blues (was thinking maybe just spontaneous births among normal goblins, no explination beyond the resurgence of psionics) Gem Dragons Lycanthropes Mind Flayers (some mix of Chaos creatures and the psionic resurgence) Orcs (something with the summer of Chaos maybe?) *any number of other psionic creatures
#3 Marcus_Majarra Jun 19, 2006 21:30:57	Sounds more like the Fogotten Realms than Dragonlance. Actually, it's more like Eberron than Forgotten Realms (since Eberron goes by the philosophy that if something exists in D&D, it exists in Eberron). In any case, I'd just like to comment that the classes from Magic of Incarnum fit in well in Dragonlance, especially during the Age of Mortals, if you feel that additional presence of "magic" is required during that time (I use the term "magic" liberally; incarnum hardly duplicates conventional spellcasting), given the stagnant nature of souls during that time period.
#4 redrobe Jun 20, 2006 12:13:25	Eberron is all about adding in what you want and leaving out what you don't. Everything has a PLACE in Eberron. This doesn't necessarily mean that everything EXISTS in Eberron. Its totally up to the DM. That aside, if you go over the DragonLance world, you can totally find places to squeeze in what you want...if not in Taladas or Ansalon, then why not make up your own continent? Tracy has said that Krynn is big enough for 5 continents the size of Ansalon. Use the published material as a guideline and otherwise go nuts. Like gem dragons? They're neutral, so place them in the Dragon Isles. The reason no one has seen them? Gilean ordered them to remain Neutral in the wars and so they stayed there, chronicling the world through much the same means as Astinus. Like Changelings? They can be decended from doppelgangers and humans/elves/half-elves very much the same way as in Eberron. Why don't people know about them? Well because they're rare like doppelgangers and who can tell one shapechanger from another? Like Shifters? They don't have to be related to lycanthropes in any way. They could have been one of your new continent's "Gray Stone" races (so could changelings, for that matter). As for warforged, there was an article in Dragon a few years ago about a gnome-created race of sentient golems called "Golmoids" that are very similar to Warforged. They were created by accident and then the accident was quantified and repeated. Now, I admit, I haven't read any of the new novels since the WoS trilogy, so I'm not up to date on all the new arcane/divine magic rules. But who said you have to follow the novels in regards to YOUR world? Take what you like and throw out the rest. Make sure its FUN and you shouldn't have any problems.
#5 ozyburrfoot Jun 20, 2006 15:21:45	Yes please do. I appreciate your thoughts, but I have my reasons for doing this as a dragonlance game. The setting, the orginizations, the races, that are already present are components of what I want in this idea. Dont get me wrong, I like Eberron, but its a totally different feel of a game, even with adding the psionic stuff into DL. To put it plainly, if the only suggestion you can make is that I should use a different setting, then please dont bother even with a reply.
#6 redrobe Jun 21, 2006 7:50:02	Yes please do. I appreciate your thoughts, but I have my reasons for doing this as a dragonlance game. The setting, the orginizations, the races, that are already present are components of what I want in this idea. Dont get me wrong, I like Eberron, but its a totally different feel of a game, even with adding the psionic stuff into DL. To put it plainly, if the only suggestion you can make is that I should use a different setting, then please dont bother even with a reply. Not sure who you were referring to with the last remark. To make it clear, I was advocating that you SHOULD add what you want and create fluff to make it fit. It may be difficult to do this, though, due to the 20+ years of continuity established with the novels and previous adventures from earlier editions of D&D, thus my suggestion to create your own continent on Krynn. My Eberron rant was directed to a couple other posters from earlier in the thread. I do really enjoy bouncing ideas around as to where things could fit. However, I'm not too well versed in some of the base/prestige classes you mentioned. I have Complete Divine, Adventurer, and Arcane, but haven't read a whole lot into any of them. I'll do what I can to help out though. Happy converting!
#7 redrobe Jun 21, 2006 9:10:14	If it doenst matter to you what I have to say RedRobde, why dont you ust not respond? What I am saying is that he can do whatever he wants, just dont call it Dragonlance, because that is not what it is. Dragonlance, in case you havent noti ed, is romantic fantasy, complete with a world and races that fit very well within the world. By adding such things as psionics or other races that arent in there, changelings, warforged, etc, the flavor of the world is gone. Make your own world and adapt whatever you want to it, but not the other way around. In my own campaigns RR, things turned out differently than from the books, that is just a given when you are dealing with people, however, my world still maintains the flavor and the style of Dragonlance because that is what we play, not the Adventures of the Tower Wizards and the Warforged. By your reasoning, if it isn't strictly what's put out in novels and DL RPG products it has no place? I personally detested the 5th Age products, so I didn't have that happen in my campaign. My characters were planning a quest to destroy Soth and his undead army. In the novels, Soth was transported to Ravenloft. In my version, he found a way back to Krynn. If we had completed this quest and he was destroyed, would what I ran still be DragonLance because it didn't happen in the novels or game materials? Absolutely. Same world, same tone, but with some differences here and there. What you seem to be saying is that a DM can't convey the same romantic fantasy tone with additional classes, races or even new continents. I highly disagree. I understand you're a DL purist. But to denounce another DM's request for assistance simply because you don't agree that he should put it in is not the point of this thread. It matters greatly what you have to say, in that you've been saying nothing at all in regards to the point of the thread. Ozy was asking for input, not to be shot down. And I also admit that I've played in to this argument that has sprung up, but I'm for assisting with a request, not bashing it because its not "canon."
#8 zombiegleemax Jun 21, 2006 16:11:36	It is a matter of opinion and opinion cannot be debated.
#9 redrobe Jun 22, 2006 8:34:44	If one doesn't have anything helpful to add when a request for help is made, then one shouldn't bother responding. End of rant. Back to helping OzyBurrfoot convert stuff to a DragonLance setting. To recap so far: Marcus Majarra said (quote): In any case, I'd just like to comment that the classes from Magic of Incarnum fit in well in Dragonlance, especially during the Age of Mortals, if you feel that additional presence of "magic" is required during that time (I use the term "magic" liberally; incarnum hardly duplicates conventional spellcasting), given the stagnant nature of souls during that time period. My suggestions: (War)Forged: The gnomes of Mt. Nevermind came up with a new invention while trying to build a better golem/automaton. The invention actually worked (accidently, but was later able to be replicated, possibly by the inspiration of Reorx), which saw the completion of a gnomish family's life quest resulting in sentient living constructs. Shifters: essence of Chaos seeped out during Summer of Chaos resulting in some barbarian tribes gaining abilities of certain animals (shifter traits) OR barbarian tribe/woodsy folk on separate continent were changed into shifters when the Graystone of Gargath went on walkabout. Gem Dragons: The children of Gilean remained neutral throughout the ages of Krynn. Now they may come out of hiding due to the manifestation of psionic powers in the various races on Krynn. (this is what I did in my campaign) More to come...
#10 zombiegleemax Jun 22, 2006 11:23:25	To put it plainly, if the only suggestion you can make is that I should use a different setting, then please dont bother even with a reply. To me nothing is more funny then a poster saying, "How would you do it" or "I want your imput". Then getting opinions that are not what they want to hear and saying "If your not going to say what I want to hear then don't say anything". If that's the attitude, why bother asking. Wether you want to hear them or not there just as relevant as all the other opinions.
#11 redrobe Jun 22, 2006 13:56:30	To me nothing is more funny then a poster saying, "How would you do it" or "I want your imput". Then getting opinions that are not what they want to hear and saying "If your not going to say what I want to hear then don't say anything". If that's the attitude, why bother asking. Wether you want to hear them or not there just as relevant as all the other opinions. Actually he was trying to get suggestions on how he should do it, not if he should just scrap the idea and use another system. Say someone says this: "I'm in the market for a motorcycle. Those who know a thing or two about motorcycles, please make suggestions on what I should get." Then someone chimes in: "Don't buy a motorcycle, buy a Hummer instead." Is this even addressing the motocycle buyer's request? No. Same situation here. The suggestion for the Hummer would be relevent if he was asking if he should get a motorcycle or not. Its not after the motorcycle guy clearly stated that he was going to get a motorcycle. Ozy is clearly asking for suggestions on how to incorporate these ideas into the DragonLance world. Telling him that he shouldn't is irrelevent to this particular post.
#12 ozyburrfoot Jun 22, 2006 14:09:06	Thanks RedRobe, Im glad someone understood what I was trying to get help with.
#13 zombiegleemax Jun 22, 2006 16:57:22	Victor, good for you. A purist I maybe when it comes to Dragonlance but that is not a bad thing. Wouldnt it be easier to adapt the PrCs to your world that to adapt the world to yours? That is not fair to the world that is already well established. Again, if you want to play Dragonlance then do so, but dont change it into something it has never been and then call it Dragonlance, or at least Ansalon.
#14 ozyburrfoot Jun 22, 2006 21:43:07	So how bout instead of telling me what to do or what not to do, you keep your unwanted opinions to yourself. If I wanted to do what your suggesting then I would. What I want to do is what Ive already said. Your point is made, no go bother someone else. I asked >> "How would I go about this?" not >> "Should I?" or "Would you?" So dont give answers for unasked questions.
#15 redrobe Jun 22, 2006 22:19:26	Victor, good for you. A purist I maybe when it comes to Dragonlance but that is not a bad thing. Wouldnt it be easier to adapt the PrCs to your world that to adapt the world to yours? That is not fair to the world that is already well established. Again, if you want to play Dragonlance then do so, but dont change it into something it has never been and then call it Dragonlance, or at least Ansalon. This whole argument has gotten way off what the original poster intended. So, for those out there who don't like what Ozy is trying to do, then don't read this post, or at least don't bother posting what you know no one who wants to help will pay any attention to. I'm getting really close to considering this baiting and reporting it to the Moderators.
#16 theredrobedwizard Jun 23, 2006 0:21:04	To Ozy: Good for you. I applaud all creative uses of non-DL material in a DL campaign, provided that people go through the effort of finding a place for it that makes sense. To Treymordin: So it's ok for your Dragonlance to use Duskblades, but it's not ok for Ozy's to use Warforged or Psionics? I suppose you use Noble Draconians too? Well, sorry to tell you but until the Bestiary of Krynn, those were just fanfic monsters. The fans finding new and creative ways to inspire their Dragonlance campaigns has been what kept the hobby growing and the world from stagnating. There was a time when Trampas, Jamie, Cam, and ClarkValentine were all just fans. Now, due to their efforts to add depth to the world and adapt it to the new editions of D&D, they're actually getting their ideas published. It's pioneers like them who keep Dragonlance from being stuck in 1st Edition. Again, if you don't have answers to the question, don't clog up the thread with "OMG UR TEH STUPUD 4 CHANJING DL" posts. Consider it a personal favor to me, please? Back to Ozy: Kalashtar could be rationalized as beings who, after the War of Souls, somehow had another being's soul superimposed/locked in with their own. They're now two souls in one body, struggling to understand their new symbiotic relationship. They gather together into communes dedicated to Majere, trying to find the mental stability to bridge the gap between their two souls. The Dreaming Dark could be a manifestation of the evil Krynnish deity (or deities) who tries to twist the Kalashtar to its own purposes. Perhaps Hiddukel's clerics have a "cure" for the Kalashtar, but it costs them both of their souls. What are the rammifications of selling not only your soul, but the soul of another person who just happens to inhabit your body? As to the Incarnate/Soulborn/Totemist; I'm sure it's been suggested before, but with the end of the War of *SOULS* just happening, there's sure to be a lot of ambient energy left over from all those *SOULS* that were clogging up the world. Incarnate/Soulborn/Totemists could be people who have learned to tap into the energy that the souls were collecting and use it for their own purposes. Blues are probably just randomly psionic goblins, now that the Gem Dragons are coming back. Orcs could be Half-Ogre/Half-Tarmak (or Brutes or whatever they're called these days) hybrids. Shifters could be Greygem barbarians, embracing their Totem animal. Changelings could be the Doppelganger offspring they are in Eberron, or they could just be normal humans mutated by the Second Coming of Chaos. Dromites might very well be creatures from the same Ether that spawned the "alien" dragons of the Fifth Age; same with the Thri-Kreen and Xeph. Goliaths are Giants/Ogres who are moving back towards their Irda roots, albeit in a more militaristic way than their sorcerous progenitors. Illumians could be an offshoot of humanity spawned when Astinus "disappeared". His essence was split up into a myriad of consciousnesses that now use the power of 'ancient words' to better the lives of others. You could really run with this idea and make the Herald an Illumian with that feat to allow his 'symbols' to be invisible. Raptorans are kinda already in the setting as Kyrie (or however that's spelled). Just a different 'breed' of them. Warlocks are beings who were either touched directly by Chaos or whose souls were touched by Chaos before they were created. Maybe those things "obliterated" by Chaos aren't totally destroyed, just thrown through time with no memory of their past. They're doomed to travel the world, looking for their past without any way to find it. Hopefully I've been of some help. -TRRW
#17 ozyburrfoot Jun 23, 2006 6:14:45	Kalashtar could be rationalized as beings who, after the War of Souls, somehow had another being's soul superimposed/locked in with their own. They're now two souls in one body, struggling to understand their new symbiotic relationship. They gather together into communes dedicated to Majere, trying to find the mental stability to bridge the gap between their two souls. The Dreaming Dark could be a manifestation of the evil Krynnish deity (or deities) who tries to twist the Kalashtar to its own purposes. Perhaps Hiddukel's clerics have a "cure" for the Kalashtar, but it costs them both of their souls. What are the rammifications of selling not only your soul, but the soul of another person who just happens to inhabit your body? Interesting.. I could make something like this work. Orcs could be Half-Ogre/Half-Tarmak (or Brutes or whatever they're called these days) hybrids. Nice idea, fits in with the simplicity I was going for. Shifters could be Greygem barbarians, embracing their Totem animal. Yeah Ive got other similar suggestions, and I think I'm gonna go this route as full blown lycanthropes arent really needed for shifters to work. Changelings could be the Doppelganger offspring they are in Eberron, or they could just be normal humans mutated by the Second Coming of Chaos. Hmm, actually I just had a thought about elven/irda halfbreeds that made me ponder Changelings.. Illumians could be an offshoot of humanity spawned when Astinus "disappeared". His essence was split up into a myriad of consciousnesses that now use the power of 'ancient words' to better the lives of others. You could really run with this idea and make the Herald an Illumian with that feat to allow his 'symbols' to be invisible. ooooohh... damn, now I need to go out and buy the damn RoD book, lol, thanks!! Hopefully I've been of some help. -TRRW Of course you have, theres some really creative stuff in here, I appreciate it
#18 ozyburrfoot Jun 23, 2006 10:03:10	We should start our own club "the Dragonlance Deviants" I like the sound of that. We need a site and a forum. Getting back on topic, I dont have the books so I dont know anything about them, but would the three classes from Tome of Magic be hard to fit into DL? I also have on my shelf the alt. PHB from Monte Cook Arcana Evolved. There are some neat races and some cool classes in there, though the magic system is different so that could cause some problems.
#19 wizo_sith Jun 23, 2006 10:14:42	If you don't have anything constructive to add, please remain silent. Please stay on-topic and avoid responding to flames and or baits. Thank you.
#20 cam_banks Jun 23, 2006 10:53:12	Getting back on topic, I dont have the books so I dont know anything about them, but would the three classes from Tome of Magic be hard to fit into DL? Pact Magic is the most interesting of the three, I think. I'm not all that fond of the Shadow Magic since it's a little too dependent on the Plane of Shadow, although you could tweak it a little and make it the Magic of the Gray if you like (which in DL is the Astral, Shadow, and Ethereal planes all mixed together.) The True Name magic isn't so bad, I suppose, and I think you could say that it's the magic the ogres and elves used before the Graygem, given to them by the gods. Now it would be so rare as to be almost impossible to learn without the help of a scion or some kind of ancient mentor. Since doppelgangers in Krynn are essentially cursed Irda offshoots, Changelings would be entirely appropriate. I'm less keen on shifters, and even less keen on warforged and kalashtar, though I do think there's room for those in your psionic version of things. Cheers, Cam
#21 ozyburrfoot Jun 23, 2006 11:15:53	Since doppelgangers in Krynn are essentially cursed Irda offshoots, Changelings would be entirely appropriate. Really? Huh, I dont remember this, where is this from?
#22 cam_banks Jun 23, 2006 14:30:48	Really? Huh, I dont remember this, where is this from? It's something I wrote for the section of the Dragonlance Dungeon Master's Screen 32-page booklet. There's a section on how to use all the MM monsters in Dragonlance, originally written for the Bestiary but cut for space and added to the DM Screen booklet. Cheers, Cam
#23 zombiegleemax Jun 23, 2006 14:59:44	To Treymordin: So it's ok for your Dragonlance to use Duskblades, but it's not ok for Ozy's to use Warforged or Psionics? I suppose you use Noble Draconians too? Well, sorry to tell you but until the Bestiary of Krynn, those were just fanfic monsters. Are duskblades a race? No. Psionics were listed as not existing on Krynn since 2nd edition.
#24 ozyburrfoot Jun 23, 2006 15:34:32	It's something I wrote for the section of the Dragonlance Dungeon Master's Screen 32-page booklet. There's a section on how to use all the MM monsters in Dragonlance, originally written for the Bestiary but cut for space and added to the DM Screen booklet. Cheers, Cam Ah, I have that somewhere. I'll have to give it a look over again, it could be really helpful. Thanks.