Darklords: What happens when a PC becomes one? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Darklords: What happens when a PC becomes one?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
emjaysmash
Jun 19, 2006 14:28:07 I am DMing an AD&D Ravenloft Campaign. It being my first, I'm a little rusty at all the powers and such of the land, especially when a PC fails all his/her power-checks and eventually becomes a Darklord. So my question is: what happens when a PC becomes a Darklord, and what sohuld i do about that player once that happens?
#2
zombiegleemax
Jun 19, 2006 15:17:15 The PC becomes an NPC under your control. The player may be reluctant to let go of his/her character, but the idea of a player in control of a darklord is not only unbalancing, but disrupts the heroic dynamic of the game.
#3
Myst_the_Moonscout
Jun 19, 2006 16:36:30 That sounds like it would make for some interesting scenarios if your players don't mind adversarial situations. Maybe work with the Darklord player as a sort of co-DM and the other players might make it their mission to redeem the new Darklord, or get the heck out of his domain before they become undead minions. This would likley require a specialized form of gameplay though that all players might not be interested in. I imagine it's pretty tough for a character to actually become a Darklord.
#4
emjaysmash
Jun 19, 2006 18:12:50
The PC becomes an NPC under your control. The player may be reluctant to let go of his/her character, but the idea of a player in control of a darklord is not only unbalancing, but disrupts the heroic dynamic of the game.

So what should I do afterwards? End the Campaign and start anew?
#5
zombiegleemax
Jun 19, 2006 18:33:54
So what should I do afterwards? End the Campaign and start anew?

Of course not! :OMG! Just have the Player make a new character.
#6
darkor
Jun 20, 2006 7:50:58
the other players might make it their mission to redeem the new Darklord

heeee... if I remeber well, this is impossible.
#7
gotten
Jun 20, 2006 10:16:48 Or the PC-turned-darklord could become their worst nemesis. After all, they know too much about him... and the reverse is true: he knows all about the other PCs...

Joël
#8
zombiegleemax
Jun 20, 2006 15:44:54
Or the PC-turned-darklord could become their worst nemesis. After all, they know too much about him... and the reverse is true: he knows all about the other PCs...
Joël

A Darklord who knows all the weaknesses of a party before even fighting them? Scary indeed! If I were in that party, I'd be leaving that area of Ravenloft ASAP. Maybe try to cause strife between the new Darklord and Azalin or Strahd. Maybe they'll take care of him for me......lol
#9
zombiegleemax
Jun 21, 2006 10:51:59 I've thought about this sort of thing many times, and I think the default answer of "he becomes an NPC" is really missing out on some interesting adventure ideas. Instead of the player no longer controling his Darklord (werewolf, vampire, demi-god, etc.) why not create adventures arrounf this character and the other characters interaction with him? I say continue to let the player play this character as long as he wishes, but of course he will be trapped in his new domain, so he will be limited in what he can do. Of course if he wishes he can always roll up a new character, or you can let him play one of his henchmen when the party adventures outside of his domain.
But I think there is a lot of adventure ideas for a Darklord, as he learns about the limits of his abilities and faces challenges to his rule. Have him explore the hidden caverns of his realm, uncover hidden secrets. Face threats from others in his domain. There are plenty of examples of other darklords having their own nemesis to deal with with.
#10
Myst_the_Moonscout
Jun 21, 2006 14:07:58
heeee... if I remeber well, this is impossible.

Doesn't mean they can't try... :D
#11
buried_by_books
Jun 21, 2006 16:04:54 An interesting question - as stated above the default (out-of-the-box) setting would dictate the character becomes an NPC. But ultimately it's you and your player's game – and there are plenty of options if you’re willing to stretch the game a little.

While the land, as written, is robust enough to cater for another dark lord, whether a PC or NPC, I'm not sure how well the setting would (I'm using the term setting to refer to the whole-cloth game setting - so not just the ‘physical’ world itself but also the tone, themes, motifs, flavour, etc). You would need to consider the impact of moving away from the default style of game. There is, though, great potential for some pretty tragic/dramatic games - if you, and the player, feel you're up to it.

A few things to consider ... Dark Lords are prisoners in their domains, taunted by (then denied) their greatest desires -- ignoring this is undermining one of the core tenants of the setting. Think carefully about how the player would take this? What does the PC/player want? Looking at it from a meta-game point of view most players, at least to a degree, desire character advancement, power and treasure. How would your player feel about their character never gaining experience again (no matter how much adventuring they did)? Having vast wealth but nothing to spend it on? Lauding hollow power over a kingdom of cringing dull witted peasants (or worse as the king of a barren wasteland)? The character will have other in-game goals to be thwarted by the Dark Powers. Dark Lords are trapped in a prison cell, unable to escape, unable to grow, unable to attain any wants or desires. This could be powerful - tragic – stuff (much scope for angsty roleplaying), or it could be frustrating and unpleasant for the player. How would you feel as a first level Mage trapped in the same soon emptied dungeon game-after-game-after-game with the exit in sight (but ever out of reach) – cutting loose with your powers may be entertaining for a time, but it would probably turn you off in the long run.

This assumes you're still sticking to Ravenloft's meta-setting. The further you move away from the feel of the game, as written, the more options you allow yourself (Perhaps convert Ravenloft into a Gothic Birthright?) - but I'd begin to ask the question why use Ravenloft at all if you're not planning on running gothic horror scenarios?

That's my thoughts...

D.
#12
orodruin
Jun 22, 2006 4:13:11 Not to mention that player characters who become darklords through failed power checks generally become lords of small pocket domains, such as a manor house, or a forest grove. Needless to say, that severely limits gaming options for the character...
#13
rotipher
Jun 22, 2006 13:48:47 Even more than the in-character liabilities of a PC darklord, the *REAL* down side to having one is an OOC problem: it means the DM can't act as a neutral arbitrator any longer. Once a PC falls into darkness and is given a domain, it's the DM's job to impose the Dark Powers' punishments upon that character -- in effect, to utterly destroy that character's capacity for happiness or success -- and to do so in the cruelest, nastiest, most inescapable and humiliating manner possible. In short, the DM (i.e. the Dark Powers) has become the PC's tormentor, out to make the game miserable for them rather than fun.

Is putting your player through that really what you want to do, as a dungeon master? Is making the DM into the adversary going to help *anyone* in your group have fun? Avoiding just this kind of player-vs-DM hostility is the reason why the Wish spell was codified more clearly in 3E, and trying to run a game for a PC darklord is a major step backwards, into an adversarial relationship with one's players, IMHO. This kind of thing breaks up gaming groups, if you're not extremely careful and your players, extremely understanding. :-(
#14
zombiegleemax
Jun 26, 2006 1:58:55 I see this as the power gamers dream come true for his out of synch and hard to assimilate CN character who is practically a living ghoul anyway.

No way. In our campaign I try to make the lure of evil inticing but a horrible thing too. I don't generally give them "COOL" features or powers for their failed powers checks and if I sense a guy is wanting to play a character for the soul purpose of being an evil super darklord, I kinda can it early on as I and the other players really get fed up with it.

Darklord. The dream and fantasy of every CN character who wants to be Anakin Skywalker. Nope, no way. You pay into it, you PAY into it. Meaning, you go this route, you loose your character at the point of transformation and probably well before hand when you become a "Creature of the Night".

If I wanted to play an epic level campaign, Ravenloft would not be my first choice. Oh yeah, I'd probably run a guy off who was pursuing the "darklord" path as I would a guy trying to become an epic level character, after a certain point... a well placed accident... end of story.
#15
zombiegleemax
Jun 26, 2006 3:55:15 Me, I'm inclined to think that the PC becomes an NPC at the Creature stage (six, or one before Darklord) unless they do something really, spectacularly awful-- awful enough that I would say, 'yeah, they skipped right to Darklord there.'

And I sure wouldn't encourage them.
#16
zombiegleemax
Jun 26, 2006 10:03:24 I think you guys really lack imagination. Obviously, locking the PC up forever in a closet does not allow many plot opportunities. But even if his domain is only a large castle it can have many hidden and mysterious rooms. But I suggest to at least give him a city to rule over….that way you can introduce all kinds of NPC antagonists for him to deal with.
You would have to tailor his curse to something specific about the PC. Also, the location of his domain is important. If your campaign revolved around confronted a specific dark lord, have his domain border that lords domain.

As for torturing the PC, again I state that you should give the character the option of rolling up a new character if he wants, but if he chooses to play his old one, then so be it……..yes, you need to include the “curse” element, and I admit I’m not sure how to handle that, but tailor something to the PC and his crimes that led up to him becoming a darklord.
Yes, I am talking the Anakin Skywalker scenario, but I am not saying it has to be power gaming. However, I’ve seen many posts from people that seem to want to whole power gaming thing, especially the DM’s who want to have powerful villains to torture PCs with. I would have thought having a PC darklord would have been every Ravenloft DM’s dream!.....free reign to unleash torment on the PCs.

One more thing, the other PCs do not have to be opposed to the new darklord. I do think that there will have to be some plotting to try to redeem their friend, but there is a way to not make them enemies of each other.

I realize that eventually, the PCs will get bored with this, since the darklord is trapped in one location, but I think allowing the player to play a henchman can help to solve this problem.
#17
zombiegleemax
Jun 27, 2006 23:36:35 Just wanted to add my 2 cents.

I've always thought of the "dark powers" as something similar to "the force" in Star Wars. It is a dark entity that is a part of everything. I look at it as being intelligent and similar to a deity; however, it does not require people to worship it. I think of it feeding on fear, sorrow, anger, etc... The more fear, sorrow, and anger the stronger it becomes. I kind of picture it as a being and the domains being inside it. Perhaps when overgods (like AO in FR) have nightmares or fears, this is the result? Who knows, you can kind of use your own imagination and no matter what...the PC's should never "REALLY" know what it is. Not knowing adds to the fear and mystery.

In response to the original post...I was running an evil campaign in Ravenloft and a character soon came close to becoming a Dark Lord. I was enjoying the campaign and so were the players, and I didn't want to end up trapping the aforementioned character in his own domain. What I did is when the character got to the point where he would have become a dark lord, I created a new story line where the player became a Dark Pawn.

What is a Dark Pawn? Well basically they are similar to a Dark Lord as they gain powers from the dark powers. They are now a slave to the whims of the dark powers. The dark powers send them commands (whether through dreams, hearing voices in their head, signs in the clouds, etc..) The dark powers use the Dark Pawn to serve it's will more directly when needed. Dark Pawns can never be trapped in a Dark Lords domain and can pass freely between the domains. Other then that, they can have their own goals but of course the land messes with them as usual. This might be another option instead of giving a player a domain that really wants his own domain. What better way to belittle someone that was seeking to become a god then to have him an eternal slave doing sometimes menial tasks for his master? This character would never get a domain and the power really wanted.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 emjaysmash Jun 19, 2006 14:28:07	I am DMing an AD&D Ravenloft Campaign. It being my first, I'm a little rusty at all the powers and such of the land, especially when a PC fails all his/her power-checks and eventually becomes a Darklord. So my question is: what happens when a PC becomes a Darklord, and what sohuld i do about that player once that happens?
#2 zombiegleemax Jun 19, 2006 15:17:15	The PC becomes an NPC under your control. The player may be reluctant to let go of his/her character, but the idea of a player in control of a darklord is not only unbalancing, but disrupts the heroic dynamic of the game.
#3 Myst_the_Moonscout Jun 19, 2006 16:36:30	That sounds like it would make for some interesting scenarios if your players don't mind adversarial situations. Maybe work with the Darklord player as a sort of co-DM and the other players might make it their mission to redeem the new Darklord, or get the heck out of his domain before they become undead minions. This would likley require a specialized form of gameplay though that all players might not be interested in. I imagine it's pretty tough for a character to actually become a Darklord.
#4 emjaysmash Jun 19, 2006 18:12:50	The PC becomes an NPC under your control. The player may be reluctant to let go of his/her character, but the idea of a player in control of a darklord is not only unbalancing, but disrupts the heroic dynamic of the game. So what should I do afterwards? End the Campaign and start anew?
#5 zombiegleemax Jun 19, 2006 18:33:54	So what should I do afterwards? End the Campaign and start anew? Of course not! :OMG! Just have the Player make a new character.
#6 darkor Jun 20, 2006 7:50:58	the other players might make it their mission to redeem the new Darklord heeee... if I remeber well, this is impossible.
#7 gotten Jun 20, 2006 10:16:48	Or the PC-turned-darklord could become their worst nemesis. After all, they know too much about him... and the reverse is true: he knows all about the other PCs... Joël
#8 zombiegleemax Jun 20, 2006 15:44:54	Or the PC-turned-darklord could become their worst nemesis. After all, they know too much about him... and the reverse is true: he knows all about the other PCs... Joël A Darklord who knows all the weaknesses of a party before even fighting them? Scary indeed! If I were in that party, I'd be leaving that area of Ravenloft ASAP. Maybe try to cause strife between the new Darklord and Azalin or Strahd. Maybe they'll take care of him for me......lol
#9 zombiegleemax Jun 21, 2006 10:51:59	I've thought about this sort of thing many times, and I think the default answer of "he becomes an NPC" is really missing out on some interesting adventure ideas. Instead of the player no longer controling his Darklord (werewolf, vampire, demi-god, etc.) why not create adventures arrounf this character and the other characters interaction with him? I say continue to let the player play this character as long as he wishes, but of course he will be trapped in his new domain, so he will be limited in what he can do. Of course if he wishes he can always roll up a new character, or you can let him play one of his henchmen when the party adventures outside of his domain. But I think there is a lot of adventure ideas for a Darklord, as he learns about the limits of his abilities and faces challenges to his rule. Have him explore the hidden caverns of his realm, uncover hidden secrets. Face threats from others in his domain. There are plenty of examples of other darklords having their own nemesis to deal with with.
#10 Myst_the_Moonscout Jun 21, 2006 14:07:58	heeee... if I remeber well, this is impossible. Doesn't mean they can't try... :D
#11 buried_by_books Jun 21, 2006 16:04:54	An interesting question - as stated above the default (out-of-the-box) setting would dictate the character becomes an NPC. But ultimately it's you and your player's game – and there are plenty of options if you’re willing to stretch the game a little. While the land, as written, is robust enough to cater for another dark lord, whether a PC or NPC, I'm not sure how well the setting would (I'm using the term setting to refer to the whole-cloth game setting - so not just the ‘physical’ world itself but also the tone, themes, motifs, flavour, etc). You would need to consider the impact of moving away from the default style of game. There is, though, great potential for some pretty tragic/dramatic games - if you, and the player, feel you're up to it. A few things to consider ... Dark Lords are prisoners in their domains, taunted by (then denied) their greatest desires -- ignoring this is undermining one of the core tenants of the setting. Think carefully about how the player would take this? What does the PC/player want? Looking at it from a meta-game point of view most players, at least to a degree, desire character advancement, power and treasure. How would your player feel about their character never gaining experience again (no matter how much adventuring they did)? Having vast wealth but nothing to spend it on? Lauding hollow power over a kingdom of cringing dull witted peasants (or worse as the king of a barren wasteland)? The character will have other in-game goals to be thwarted by the Dark Powers. Dark Lords are trapped in a prison cell, unable to escape, unable to grow, unable to attain any wants or desires. This could be powerful - tragic – stuff (much scope for angsty roleplaying), or it could be frustrating and unpleasant for the player. How would you feel as a first level Mage trapped in the same soon emptied dungeon game-after-game-after-game with the exit in sight (but ever out of reach) – cutting loose with your powers may be entertaining for a time, but it would probably turn you off in the long run. This assumes you're still sticking to Ravenloft's meta-setting. The further you move away from the feel of the game, as written, the more options you allow yourself (Perhaps convert Ravenloft into a Gothic Birthright?) - but I'd begin to ask the question why use Ravenloft at all if you're not planning on running gothic horror scenarios? That's my thoughts... D.
#12 orodruin Jun 22, 2006 4:13:11	Not to mention that player characters who become darklords through failed power checks generally become lords of small pocket domains, such as a manor house, or a forest grove. Needless to say, that severely limits gaming options for the character...
#13 rotipher Jun 22, 2006 13:48:47	Even more than the in-character liabilities of a PC darklord, the REAL down side to having one is an OOC problem: it means the DM can't act as a neutral arbitrator any longer. Once a PC falls into darkness and is given a domain, it's the DM's job to impose the Dark Powers' punishments upon that character -- in effect, to utterly destroy that character's capacity for happiness or success -- and to do so in the cruelest, nastiest, most inescapable and humiliating manner possible. In short, the DM (i.e. the Dark Powers) has become the PC's tormentor, out to make the game miserable for them rather than fun. Is putting your player through that really what you want to do, as a dungeon master? Is making the DM into the adversary going to help anyone in your group have fun? Avoiding just this kind of player-vs-DM hostility is the reason why the Wish spell was codified more clearly in 3E, and trying to run a game for a PC darklord is a major step backwards, into an adversarial relationship with one's players, IMHO. This kind of thing breaks up gaming groups, if you're not extremely careful and your players, extremely understanding. :-(
#14 zombiegleemax Jun 26, 2006 1:58:55	I see this as the power gamers dream come true for his out of synch and hard to assimilate CN character who is practically a living ghoul anyway. No way. In our campaign I try to make the lure of evil inticing but a horrible thing too. I don't generally give them "COOL" features or powers for their failed powers checks and if I sense a guy is wanting to play a character for the soul purpose of being an evil super darklord, I kinda can it early on as I and the other players really get fed up with it. Darklord. The dream and fantasy of every CN character who wants to be Anakin Skywalker. Nope, no way. You pay into it, you PAY into it. Meaning, you go this route, you loose your character at the point of transformation and probably well before hand when you become a "Creature of the Night". If I wanted to play an epic level campaign, Ravenloft would not be my first choice. Oh yeah, I'd probably run a guy off who was pursuing the "darklord" path as I would a guy trying to become an epic level character, after a certain point... a well placed accident... end of story.
#15 zombiegleemax Jun 26, 2006 3:55:15	Me, I'm inclined to think that the PC becomes an NPC at the Creature stage (six, or one before Darklord) unless they do something really, spectacularly awful-- awful enough that I would say, 'yeah, they skipped right to Darklord there.' And I sure wouldn't encourage them.
#16 zombiegleemax Jun 26, 2006 10:03:24	I think you guys really lack imagination. Obviously, locking the PC up forever in a closet does not allow many plot opportunities. But even if his domain is only a large castle it can have many hidden and mysterious rooms. But I suggest to at least give him a city to rule over….that way you can introduce all kinds of NPC antagonists for him to deal with. You would have to tailor his curse to something specific about the PC. Also, the location of his domain is important. If your campaign revolved around confronted a specific dark lord, have his domain border that lords domain. As for torturing the PC, again I state that you should give the character the option of rolling up a new character if he wants, but if he chooses to play his old one, then so be it……..yes, you need to include the “curse” element, and I admit I’m not sure how to handle that, but tailor something to the PC and his crimes that led up to him becoming a darklord. Yes, I am talking the Anakin Skywalker scenario, but I am not saying it has to be power gaming. However, I’ve seen many posts from people that seem to want to whole power gaming thing, especially the DM’s who want to have powerful villains to torture PCs with. I would have thought having a PC darklord would have been every Ravenloft DM’s dream!.....free reign to unleash torment on the PCs. One more thing, the other PCs do not have to be opposed to the new darklord. I do think that there will have to be some plotting to try to redeem their friend, but there is a way to not make them enemies of each other. I realize that eventually, the PCs will get bored with this, since the darklord is trapped in one location, but I think allowing the player to play a henchman can help to solve this problem.
#17 zombiegleemax Jun 27, 2006 23:36:35	Just wanted to add my 2 cents. I've always thought of the "dark powers" as something similar to "the force" in Star Wars. It is a dark entity that is a part of everything. I look at it as being intelligent and similar to a deity; however, it does not require people to worship it. I think of it feeding on fear, sorrow, anger, etc... The more fear, sorrow, and anger the stronger it becomes. I kind of picture it as a being and the domains being inside it. Perhaps when overgods (like AO in FR) have nightmares or fears, this is the result? Who knows, you can kind of use your own imagination and no matter what...the PC's should never "REALLY" know what it is. Not knowing adds to the fear and mystery. In response to the original post...I was running an evil campaign in Ravenloft and a character soon came close to becoming a Dark Lord. I was enjoying the campaign and so were the players, and I didn't want to end up trapping the aforementioned character in his own domain. What I did is when the character got to the point where he would have become a dark lord, I created a new story line where the player became a Dark Pawn. What is a Dark Pawn? Well basically they are similar to a Dark Lord as they gain powers from the dark powers. They are now a slave to the whims of the dark powers. The dark powers send them commands (whether through dreams, hearing voices in their head, signs in the clouds, etc..) The dark powers use the Dark Pawn to serve it's will more directly when needed. Dark Pawns can never be trapped in a Dark Lords domain and can pass freely between the domains. Other then that, they can have their own goals but of course the land messes with them as usual. This might be another option instead of giving a player a domain that really wants his own domain. What better way to belittle someone that was seeking to become a god then to have him an eternal slave doing sometimes menial tasks for his master? This character would never get a domain and the power really wanted.