Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zenosaga_dup Jun 26, 2006 17:04:26	Can anyone here point me to somewhere where I can find detailed information on the nature/ecology of D&D/Ravenloft vampires? Some specific questions I am asking include: 1. Do all of a vampires victims automatically become vampires? 2. What kinds of abilities does the average vampire possess? 3. Are vampires separated into distinctions such as clans or tribes? 4. Is there any special relationship between a vampire and its creator? 5. What effect does the blood of a vampire have on a living human? 6. What are dhampirs and what is their relation to vampires?
#2 Mortepierre Jun 26, 2006 17:22:35	Two words: Van Richten. OK, maybe it's a bit short. Let me explain. THE ravenloftian reference on vampires (not to mention other creatures) is the famous Van Richten Guide to Vampires. This accessory answers most of the questions you raise. Alas, it's 2e and so, a bit outdated. Luckily, the crunch part was updated in both the RL PHB and the Van Richten's Arsenal I accessory (both 3.Xe). Some stats can also be found in Denizens of Dread, the ravenloftian monster manual (the Dhampir is in there) Hope this helps
#3 zenosaga_dup Jun 26, 2006 18:28:05	THE ravenloftian reference on vampires (not to mention other creatures) is the famous Van Richten Guide to Vampires. This accessory answers most of the questions you raise. Alas, it's 2e and so, a bit outdated. Luckily, the crunch part was updated in both the RL PHB and the Van Richten's Arsenal I accessory (both 3.Xe). Some stats can also be found in Denizens of Dread, the ravenloftian monster manual (the Dhampir is in there) Thanks for the help, but I am currently unable to obtain said books. I only need the questions that I provided to be answered. I am trying to compare Ravenloft vampires with the Kindred of Vampire: The Requiem. 1. Do all of a vampires victims automatically become vampires? 2. What kinds of abilities does the average vampire possess? 3. Are vampires separated into distinctions such as clans or tribes? 4. Is there any special relationship between a vampire and its creator? 5. What effect does the blood of a vampire have on a living human? 6. What are dhampirs and what is their relation to vampires? These are the only questions I need to have answered. I also hope that people may use this thread to post information reguarding vampire physiology at it relates to D&D/Ravenloft.
#4 zombiegleemax Jun 27, 2006 0:23:19	1. Do all of a vampires victims automatically become vampires? 2. What kinds of abilities does the average vampire possess? 3. Are vampires separated into distinctions such as clans or tribes? 4. Is there any special relationship between a vampire and its creator? 5. What effect does the blood of a vampire have on a living human? 6. What are dhampirs and what is their relation to vampires? 1. If they have under 5HD, they become vampire spawn, and I seem to remember some spell being able to prevent it, but otherwise,yes. 2. They can transform into an animal or a cloud of mist, they can walk on walls, they can drain energy, they can drain blood, they can charm or dominate with their gaze. 3. Only if the dungeon master says so. 4. The vampire is under its creator's control util its creator is destroyed. I belive that its creator can also volintarily relase it. 5. I do not know, no information on this is given in anything I've read for D&D. 6. They are the result of a cross between human and vampire. They are classified as monsterous humanoids. They can move about by day, but their not as powerful as vampires, and most of their powers don't work in daylight.
#5 Mortepierre Jun 27, 2006 3:17:34	Thanks for the help, but I am currently unable to obtain said books. I only need the questions that I provided to be answered. I am trying to compare Ravenloft vampires with the Kindred of Vampire: The Requiem. Well, you said you wanted us to point you at accessories able to answer your questions. That's what I did. If you wanted direct answers, you should have simply said so. That said, anyone can get the books I listed as pdf and for a cheap price too. http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1533& http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=47_66 What effect does the blood of a vampire have on a living human? It can act as a (physical-)stats-boosting drug. Witness the Kargatane of Darkon whose vampiric masters control through the gift of a little blood.
#6 zenosaga_dup Jun 27, 2006 14:44:33	1. If they have under 5HD, they become vampire spawn, and I seem to remember some spell being able to prevent it, but otherwise,yes. So if what you're saying is true, the world should be filled with an overpopulation of vampires. The creators of D&D didn't think this through, did they? 2. They can transform into an animal or a cloud of mist, they can walk on walls, they can drain energy, they can drain blood, they can charm or dominate with their gaze. 3. Only if the dungeon master says so. What I mean is, can vampires be separated biologically into clans/tribes with each one possessing unique powers and weaknesses? 4. The vampire is under its creator's control util its creator is destroyed. I belive that its creator can also volintarily relase it. So the master vampire treats his spawn like a slave? I would expect for there to be a close bond or something, like in Interview with a Vampire. 5. I do not know, no information on this is given in anything I've read for D&D. In "the other Vampire RPG," vampiric blood is addictive and grants supernatural power to those who imbibe it, as the cost of making then "reinfields." 6. They are the result of a cross between human and vampire. They are classified as monsterous humanoids. They can move about by day, but their not as powerful as vampires, and most of their powers don't work in daylight. How do they interact with vampires, and how do they treat one another?
#7 malus_black Jun 27, 2006 16:49:53	So if what you're saying is true, the world should be filled with an overpopulation of vampires. The creators of D&D didn't think this through, did they? You know, vampires don't have to kill their victims, they only need to drain 8 Con worth of blood per night (as per Ravenloft rules. Per core D&D, they don't need anything). And even if they do, they could just do a quick decapitation afterwards. Vampires don't generally want competition. What I mean is, can vampires be separated biologically into clans/tribes with each one possessing unique powers and weaknesses? The standard MM vampire is pretty much the only variant in core D&D. Ravenloft has added several vampiric strains, such as racial (demihuman) vampires, nosferatu (immune to sunlight, the classic Bram Stoker variant), vrykolaka (disease vampire, think Count Orlock from, ironically, Nosferatu) and Ciang Shi (oriental vampire, don't really know much about these), all with their unique strengths and weaknesses. In addition, Ravenloft has always encouraged DMs to make up their own unique monsters, so you have things like salient abilities etc. in addition to DM-made abilities. So the master vampire treats his spawn like a slave? I would expect for there to be a close bond or something, like in Interview with a Vampire. Depends on the vampire. The Guide to Vampires (which you really should get, it's only a $4,99 download, and a great read) introduces the concept of vampiric brides and grooms, which are closely bonded to their creator through blood. But generally vampires just make servants. In "the other Vampire RPG," vampiric blood is addictive and grants supernatural power to those who imbibe it, as the cost of making then "reinfields." As Morte said, there's a whole blood-cult called the Kargatane, the inner circle of which is hopelessly addicted to the blood of their Kargat (Azalin's secret police) vampire masters. Vampire blood halts aging over a period (requiring a steady supply), but this comes at a price. How do they interact with vampires, and how do they treat one another? Really don't know much about dhampires. As far as I know, they haven't had much treatment in Ravenloft apart from their writeup in the monster books.
#8 john_w._mangrum Jul 01, 2006 13:30:01	So if what you're saying is true, the world should be filled with an overpopulation of vampires. The creators of D&D didn't think this through, did they? To address only the most obvious error in that train of snark, in D&D "vampire spawn" =/= "vampire."
#9 zenosaga_dup Jul 01, 2006 14:05:05	To address only the most obvious error in that train of snark, in D&D "vampire spawn" =/= "vampire." Eventually, most of the world's inhabitants will either be dead, be vampires, or be vampire spawn. All because vampires have no concious control over who they turn. Vampire spawn will have to feed, and they will kill all their victims. Vampires will have to feed, and all their victims will become vampires or spawn. To be frank, I think that all D&D vampires are very wrong. Vampires don't have to be innately chaotic evil like they are portrayed in D&D. Some should actually be able to be good or neutral. I also believe that the creation of a vampire should require concious and taxing effort on the part of the sire, such as "breathing" a portion of their own soul into the corpse of prospective childe, and there should be a perverse psychological and sexual connection between the sire and childe. And why should lycanthropy be a disease? It wasn't believed to be a disease in the original folklore. In fact, one had to use magic to become a werewolf or be born one. And werewolves don't have to be innately chaotic evil like they are portrayed in D&D. Some should actually be able to be good or neutral. I believe the idea of lycanthropy should be removed from D&D and made so that one must be born a werewolf or not at all. White Wolf's World of Darkness is innately superior to the D&D equivalents. I never play D&D, because it is innately flawed and bigoted.
#10 john_w._mangrum Jul 01, 2006 20:59:01	Eventually, most of the world's inhabitants will either be dead, be vampires, or be vampire spawn. All because vampires have no concious control over who they turn. Vampire spawn will have to feed, and they will kill all their victims. Vampires will have to feed, and all their victims will become vampires or spawn. Ah, yes, the Existence in a Vacuum fallacy.
#11 bob_the_efreet Jul 02, 2006 2:20:40	2. What kinds of abilities does the average vampire possess? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm So the master vampire treats his spawn like a slave? I would expect for there to be a close bond or something, like in Interview with a Vampire. That's nice. Here in Ravenloft we recognise that vampires are bad people, completely different than the uselessly romantic ideas presented in Anne Rice and White Wolf. White Wolf's World of Darkness is innately superior to the D&D equivalents. I never play D&D, because it is innately flawed and bigoted. D&D doesn't have 'equivalents' to White Wolf. It is its own game, with different settings and assumptions about gameplay. This is good, because if all the games were the same, RPGs would get boring. And you clearly have some innately flawed and bigoted beliefs about D&D, so perhaps you could go a little lighter on the ranting.
#12 humanbing Jul 02, 2006 8:26:31	In VR Guide to the Vampire, actually, it is suggested that vampires don't have particularly strong control over their spawn. One interview segment between Van Richten and a vampire suggests that the vampire merely intimidates and lies to its spawn to make them do what it wants - rather like a human must use psychological methods to get people to do what he or she wants. Vampire brides and grooms are different, sharing a very strong bond. To answer the question about vampire feeding, a vampire doesn't have to kill the person they feed from in order to be replenished. Also, the victim of a feeding doesn't necessarily become a vampire unless they are killed (or, in the case of a vampiric bride or groom, nearly killed and then allowed to reverse feed on the vampire itself). Strahd von Zarovich keeps a dungeon full of criminals and trespassers to feed on, meaning that the rest of the population is generally spared his daily depredations. They go hopelessly insane, but they don't die as long as Strahd rotates between them. He admits in I, Strahd that he sometimes loses control and kills one, but even then the body is easily enough treated so he has no spawn. One presumes a similar method is used to keep the Kargat's feeding from depopulating Darkon. So I don't have a problem with the "vampire killing people" equation. I do have a problem with Vlad Drakov, whom it is said requires a killing every evening meal. What with the wars he wages, and the executions, wouldn't that depopulate Falkovnia of its adults? Edit: Wait a second. If you never play DnD because it's innately flawed and bigoted, why are you bothering to post here? This is not a criticism or a moral judgement - I'm just confused. (A state of mind which happens quite often.)
#13 zenosaga_dup Jul 02, 2006 12:52:14	Edit: Wait a second. If you never play DnD because it's innately flawed and bigoted, why are you bothering to post here? This is not a criticism or a moral judgement - I'm just confused. (A state of mind which happens quite often.) I don't play... yet. Alas, I too am confused over my actions. That's nice. Here in Ravenloft we recognise that vampires are bad people, completely different than the uselessly romantic ideas presented in Anne Rice and White Wolf. Ignoring the Anne Rice part, I would hardly call the Jyhad or the Danse Macabre "romantic" in any possible meaning of the word. They are far more horrific than we as mortals realize. To add to that: the Tzimisce of the old world embodied horror, evil, and insanity just for the sake of it; considering they could sculp flesh and bone like it was clay. ~~~~ It's just that some aspects of D&D make no sense to me and seem to just be somehow wrong. But just because I don't like certain things or find small problems in the grand scheme of D&D should not prevent me from playing it. I don't mean to insult D&D, I just am not content with certain parts of it, and have the intense desire to make huge changes to those particular aspects. I just loose control of over myself when I rant on and allow an overflow of emotion, and I thus tend to say nonsensical things. I tend to become obssessive, and I sometimes find percieved flaws (like vampirism/lycanthropy as chaotic evil and contagious diseases) and make a big issue out of them. But vampires and werewolves should not just be chaotic evil monsters with no real purpose other than to be killed by the heroes. There are some exceptions to this rule, but the majority should be able to be whatever alignment, have higher purposes or calling, or even be heroes or anti-heroes themselves. Why should undead automatically equal evil? Why should disease automatically equal evil? I am deeply sorry if I had caused any here any inconveniences, and would like to correct my mistakes. I am currently amassing a collection of D&D-related material, and there are absolutely NO role-players at all in my entire district. Really sad, ain't it?
#14 bob_the_efreet Jul 02, 2006 14:58:31	But vampires and werewolves should not just be chaotic evil monsters with no real purpose other than to be killed by the heroes. On this point, you and Ravenloft are in agreeance. Although vampires and werewolves are still almost always villains, the point is for villains to be interesting. They have depth and personalities, abilities and flaws like anybody else. They have considerably more purpose than to just wait until some heroes come kill them.
#15 Mortepierre Jul 02, 2006 19:07:54	But vampires and werewolves should not just be chaotic evil monsters with no real purpose other than to be killed by the heroes. There are some exceptions to this rule, but the majority should be able to be whatever alignment, have higher purposes or calling, or even be heroes or anti-heroes themselves. Why should undead automatically equal evil? Why should disease automatically equal evil? Well, one might argue that anything as "un-natural" as these clearly wasn't meant to be. After all, in both cases, what you have is a super-predator. Even if he fed only on villains, he would still have to hunt them down and kill them. While he might pretend he was doing it for justice or to rid the world of criminals, deep down inside, the real reason would still be that he is fulfilling a craving. In D&D terms, that's clearly as far right as you can go on the Good <-> Evil axis... That said, if you want a world where one can be an undead and still be a "good" guy, then head over to Arcanis (from PCI). Undead PC are a possibility there, albeit after a long and difficult road.
#16 rotipher Jul 03, 2006 10:56:48	Besides, even more than other D&D settings, one of Ravenloft's overall themes is that the ends don't justify the means: not in-character, not for the players' choices of action for their PCs. Ravenloft was designed from the outset to be a morally challenging game-setting, where doing what's right isn't necessarily just a matter of doing what's tactically convenient. Yes, a vampire could have good intentions. But that's not enough to excuse a chronic dependency on evil methods -- like draining the life out of people, fatally or not, forcibly or not -- by Ravenloft's strict moral standards. Heck, there are darklords who honestly believe they're doing the right thing, and/or that they have no choice, yet they're just as villainous as the rest ... and just as damned, even if their motives do make them marginally more palatable.
#17 zombiegleemax Jul 04, 2006 2:51:55	Really don't know much about dhampires. As far as I know, they haven't had much treatment in Ravenloft apart from their writeup in the monster books. As I understand it, dhampires generally occupy themselves with hunting thier vampire parent, though some give in to their predatory vampirc natures though they do not actually need to drink blood.
#18 zombiegleemax Jul 04, 2006 2:55:03	Really don't know much about dhampires. As far as I know, they haven't had much treatment in Ravenloft apart from their writeup in the monster books. As I understand it, some dhampires give in to thier vampirc half and become murderous predators (though they dont actually need to drink blood), and others dedicate their lives to slaying vampires, especcially thier parent. (sorry I typed this twice, I didn't figure out for a little bit how to use quotes)