Wotc has repeatedly failed to do the right thing concerning Greyhawk. Why would they want to change a losing record like that?
as a greyhawk loyalist I resent the fact that you lump us all together in thinking that what ever Erik is working on must be grayhawk. :P
You may be right. However, wouldn't be nice if what ever Erik ever work came out to be Greyhawk? :D
I personally would expect them to do a site based adventure like City of Greyhawk (like they are doing with Expedition to Castle Ravenloft). I don't think we'll ever see a hardcover campaign setting again.
I wish that they would support the original AD&D world much better than they do/ Maybe if people got together like Dragonlance fans did and were able to publish their own materials?
Greyhawk fans have gotten together. Its called Living Greyhawk, and its easily the most popular living campaign ever. you can read about it here: http://wizards.com/lg
Greyhawk fans have gotten together. Its called Living Greyhawk, and its easily the most popular living campaign ever. you can read about it here: http://wizards.com/lg
Uhh. No thanks. I live in Florida, and if I ever want to run a scenario set in Old Almor (Nyrond region), I'm out of luck. Oh, and then there's the hassle of ordering scenarios and reporting them. Sorry, but Living Greyhawk just doesn't cut it. Give me a 3.5 Player's Guide to Greyhawk to which I can refer new players, and I'll be happy.
what is wrong with the Living Greyhawk Gazette? please tell me that you don't discriminate because it has the word living on it?
It's great for DMs. I love it, and used it all the time. It's not so great for players who just want an overview of the setting and for DMs who want to give players mechanical elements that tie into the setting such as regional feats and prestige classes. When I started my Greyhawk campaign, I would never have expected players to absorb all of that content, which was only organized by nations, and have to read through so much dense material just to introduce themselves to the setting.
yes there is living greyhawk, but the information is hardly acessable, even if have a membership (i dont, and dont plan on it) you cant get all of the info on all of the kingdoms etc..
Joining the RPGA is absurdly easy.
Accessing the Triad websites, which have the info on the regions, is absurdly easy, and doesn't require a membership.
Uhh. No thanks. I live in Florida, and if I ever want to run a scenario set in Old Almor (Nyrond region), I'm out of luck. Oh, and then there's the hassle of ordering scenarios and reporting them. Sorry, but Living Greyhawk just doesn't cut it.
If you want to run an adventure set in Almor, write one and run it. You just can't do it as part of the LG camapign, but that is how it goes when you are using someone else's campaign setting.
As for the "hassle" of scenarios, what hassle? The Herald test is open book and tedious. Ordering and reporting takes about 5 minutes for each. The "hardest" part is ordering 1 week ahead of running the game.
The "hardest" part is ordering 1 week ahead of running the game.
actually the "hardest" part of LG is the lack of quality of many of thier "products" (this varies tremendously by region, Onwall and Sam's Keoland often put out good quality stuff, but other regions have put some realy, realy bad adventures out there).
Greyhawk fans have gotten together. Its called Living Greyhawk, and its easily the most popular living campaign ever. you can read about it here: http://wizards.com/lg
Living Arcanis is gaining on it every day and offers better quality, but I suppose it's something we'll discuss on a rainy day...
Anyway , methink there is a remote possibility that what VictorC heard about was actually this:
http://paizo.com/store/games/roleplayingGames/h/hackMaster/modules/v5748btpy7ckw
If you want to run an adventure set in Almor, write one and run it.
You assume that's at the top of my priority list. I have more important things to tend to in my day-to-day life. While it's possible to squeeze in time every now and then to write my own adventure, it'd take me forever, and when I see interesting scenarios listed on the Nyrond web site that I would love to use in my personal campaign, it frustrates me that I can't order them for personal use simply because I'm not a part of that region.
Joining the RPGA is absurdly easy.
Accessing the Triad websites, which have the info on the regions, is absurdly easy, and doesn't require a membership.
I realise that..... and guess what i still havent done it, beacuse it is not the style of play i enjoy.
but anyways its not the fact that i can get the info elsewhere, its just the I would like to see it in a hardcover
ritch guy: "damn they stopped produing tires that fit my bently"
Geevs: "well sir you could just buy a Ladda"
Still, it would be great to have a hardcover updated Greyhawk campaign setting with information on the world as well as the crunch stuff, instead of having to refer to half a dozen books and various magazine issues. I'd love to buy such a book. FR can only hold my interest for so long. :P
You assume that's at the top of my priority list. I have more important things to tend to in my day-to-day life. While it's possible to squeeze in time every now and then to write my own adventure, it'd take me forever, and when I see interesting scenarios listed on the Nyrond web site that I would love to use in my personal campaign, it frustrates me that I can't order them for personal use simply because I'm not a part of that region.
You assume that destroying the regional system to satisfy your desires is at the top of the priority list for the LG campaign staff. That system is at the heart of what makes LG so popular. While it means not everyone gets to play in their personal favorite region, it does mean everyone who lives in an area with enough play to be assigned a region has access to 36 adventures every year, for free. Have you even tried running those adventures?
I realise that..... and guess what i still havent done it, beacuse it is not the style of play i enjoy.
That is a fair criticism.
LG is a very specific style of play, and it is not going to be suitable to everyone. What people often don't realize is that just about all of the campaign staff feels the same way about one or more elements of LG. But they accept those compromises are necessary for a campaign with several thousand players, and over 200 adventures released every year. And we continually try to make things better.
I will still note, all the regional background information posted on websites is still available, for free. (And whenever the regional Triads post it.) You still can not beat that price.
You assume that destroying the regional system to satisfy your desires is at the top of the priority list for the LG campaign staff.
I've made no such assumption. I have no expectations for them to change their system. I've only stated that their system doesn't satisfy my interests.
All I am trying to say is that I would like to run a campaign set in Old Almor and the Living Greyhawk Campaign doesn't help me with that despite the fact that they have several adventures set in that area of the Flanaess.
I've made no such assumption. I have no expectations for them to change their system. I've only stated that their system doesn't satisfy my interests.
All I am trying to say is that I would like to run a campaign set in Old Almor and the Living Greyhawk Campaign doesn't help me with that despite the fact that they have several adventures set in that area of the Flanaess.
Except it does help you run a campaign set in Old Almor. Go to the Nyrond website, and read the background they have available. What is not provided is unlimited access to all the free adventures the campaign produces.
You also complained about ordering and reporting adventures, something that is not difficult at all.
If you want to object that the campaign doesn't give you the adventures you want, that is a complaint about the regional system. It is not the same as the background material not being available to anyone, or the ordering system.
Except it does help you run a campaign set in Old Almor. Go to the Nyrond website, and read the background they have available. What is not provided is unlimited access to all the free adventures the campaign produces.
You also complained about ordering and reporting adventures, something that is not difficult at all.
If you want to object that the campaign doesn't give you the adventures you want, that is a complaint about the regional system. It is not the same as the background material not being available to anyone, or the ordering system.
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish with me, but I think you're missing my general point.
You suggested playing Living Greyhawk, and I've only stated that it doesn't meet my needs. The details of how easy it is to order scenarios for my region are irrelevant to my personal wants and needs for my running a personal Greyhawk campaign. Despite your effort to provide solutions, those suggestions still don't meet all of my needs. For example, I've already used the background information presented at the various sites (where available), but I still yearn for written adventure modules that I can use, too. It's unfortunate that the regional system works the way it does, but I place no expectations of changes to that system, nor do I complain about it being a "bad" system. It just doesn't work for what I want to do.
Secondly, a 3.5 Player's Guide to Greyhawk isn't a request for me as much as it is a request for players who know nothing about this setting. When I started my campaign, I had a hell of a time providing background information (races, condensed regional information, common and easily digestible campaign history,etc.) and game mechanics (PrCs, regional feats, etc.). They were flooded with material from disparate sources. A single source to which I could refer them would have been ideal.
All I can do from here is repeat what I've already said or reword it, but I doubt that will make a difference for this conversation. As such, I will simply disengage from the conversation from this point forward.
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish with me, but I think you're missing my general point.
I am refuting your initial posted "problems" with the LG campaign.
They were:
1. Failure to provide specific regional adventures.
2. Difficulty of acquiring adventures.
Neither of your complaints reflect the reality of the LG campaign. Nor do they appear to reflect what you are asking for. Specifically:
Secondly, a 3.5 Player's Guide to Greyhawk isn't a request for me as much as it is a request for players who know nothing about this setting. When I started my campaign, I had a hell of a time providing background information (races, condensed regional information, common and easily digestible campaign history,etc.) and game mechanics (PrCs, regional feats, etc.). They were flooded with material from disparate sources. A single source to which I could refer them would have been ideal.
That's great. Of course, a player's guide is not a bunch of adventures. And while LG doesn't provide a single, unified, player's guide, it does provide a considerable amount of the material you mention here.
Personally, I like the LG modules. I have a ton of them and yet, I want MORE.
Greyhawk Player's Guide. Fine.
Greyhawk Campaign Setting. Fine.
You name it. Fine.
Greyhawk Player's Guide. Fine.
Greyhawk Campaign Setting. Fine.
If they produced these books, I'd buy them. Heck, if they put LGG back in print, I'd buy it. C'mon WotC, make information on the default setting more accessible. With a nice fold-out map, too.
Same thing goes for a Hardcover Player's Guide to Greyhawk by top authors and top artists.
After that I'll be content. If WotC wanted to make some Greyhawk adventures to compliment their Forgotten Realms and Eberron adventures that would be icing on the cake and I'd buy them but I'm happy with those that have been published in Dungeon Magazine.
C'mon WotC, give in to the pressure! Put out the GHCS and PGtGH and sit back and rake in the cash!
I would rather have a book written by decent to solid authors that have an interest in and care about the setting, then I would see a book written by superstar game designers who couldn't give a rats behind.
With a nice fold-out map, too.
The 4-parts map published by Dungeon was quite good. You may want to look into it.
the problem with that is that most "Top Authors" have little to know interest in the greyhawk setting, and little to no desire to write such a book, there are a few exceptions, such as Erik, but for the most part when you start talking to popular designers about greyhawk the interest level evaporates.
[..]
"Top authors" have great know interest in paying their bills and will be very happy to take this assignment if Wizards offer it to them. It is an editorial decision from high management not to develop Greyhawk, having little to do with the authors themselves.
"We have top people working on it.
Really? Who? Who do you have working on it?
Top people."
"Top authors" have great know interest in paying their bills and will be very happy to take this assignment if Wizards offer it to them. It is an editorial decision from high management not to develop Greyhawk, having little to do with the authors themselves.
Yes, as we have seen from recent and upcoming quality, WotC footing the bill really gets the best work out of somebody.
excuse me if I have seen enough of WotC's "top author's" and developers views of developing greyhawk material ::cough:: saltmarsh in DMG2 ::cough::
The 4-parts map published by Dungeon was quite good. You may want to look into it.
Ooh, which issues?
#118 to 121
Thank you.
The 4-parts map published by Dungeon was quite good. You may want to look into it.
I thought the adventures that appeared in those issues were prtty good too. Just so you don't feel like you're spending 28 bucks buying them for the maps. The maps are very good by the way and quite impressive when you put them all together.
The more I think about a GHCS book and now a Player's guide to Greyhawk, the more I want them. It really is a shame that the books have haven't been done yet. I mean since it is the default setting and everything shouldn't they have put that one out first?
i really don't know anything about lg, so was wondering what the reasoning is behind the whole if you live here you play adventures that take place in this area thing? on a side note that has nothing to do with the thread i think that bringing back planescape would be nice as well.
In Living Greyhawk they took the map of the land and divided it up into regions. Each region was assigned to a real world region such as New York or the North West or France. People can then write adventures for the Core (middle of the continent including Greyhawk City), their region and their meta-region (a kinda clumping of neighbouring regions in-game).
Secondly, a 3.5 Player's Guide to Greyhawk isn't a request for me as much as it is a request for players who know nothing about this setting. When I started my campaign, I had a hell of a time providing background information (races, condensed regional information, common and easily digestible campaign history,etc.) and game mechanics (PrCs, regional feats, etc.). They were flooded with material from disparate sources. A single source to which I could refer them would have been ideal.
All I can do from here is repeat what I've already said or reword it, but I doubt that will make a difference for this conversation. As such, I will simply disengage from the conversation from this point forward.
I really don't know if that would sell. 90% of the PrC, feats and like would have to be really, really setting specific or reprinted from elsewhere. And the setting itself isn't that interesting as the mind-numbingly boring Greyhawk Gazetteer proves. It's full on information but a chore to work through.
You REALLY want a Player's book to Greyhawk though? You really want a guide for newbies. Then make a wiki. There are great wikis for other settings, both fan and official, and the Star Wars wiki has to be seen to be believed.
All the regional information from ALL the regions is on their webpages and yahoo groups. ALL the core rules are in the WotC SRD. There's nothing stopping you from making new Prestige Classes and feats. Or ask CannonFire for permission to link/copy their information.
Here's a free wiki-style site: http://pbwiki.com/
Is it the same as a nice, official hardcover? Nope. But it is the best you're every going to see.
i really don't know anything about lg, so was wondering what the reasoning is behind the whole if you live here you play adventures that take place in this area thing?
The regional system allows people in each region to become more familiar with the particular character and flavor (or quirks and peculiarities) of a region. That allows them to run adventures from the region with a better understanding of that flavor, and the design intent of the people writing and organizing them.
And technically, you can play whatever adventures you like. The rule limits you to ordering and running adventures only for your region, in your region. While that typically means the same thing if you can't afford to travel to other regions (a job, time, or getting to another region requires a plane), the distinction is important.
I really don't know if that would sell. 90% of the PrC, feats and like would have to be really, really setting specific or reprinted from elsewhere. And the setting itself isn't that interesting as the mind-numbingly boring Greyhawk Gazetteer proves. It's full on information but a chore to work through.
I think the setting is interesting, or can be, but I agree that the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer presented it poorly. Part of that could have been fixed with better, more frequent and more directly useful illustrations, but more fundamentally it should have concentrated more on the "primary colors" of the setting - the unique factions and conflicts that drive it. The entries on the nations, rather than being only lists of information, could stand to take a cue from the 3.5 Monster Manual and the present spell format with a italicized paragraph or so giving first impressions and general flavor for a DM would read aloud to players to concisely show what each nation is supposed to be. Rather than reading through a long roster of resources, capital cities, and histories, we should find out immediately that Ket is a place of radicalized religious fanatics and Zeif is a wealthy, ancient empire, that the Yeomanry is full of proud, democratic peasants and Geoff is a land of heroic giant-slayers, that Ahlissa is a hive of Machiavellian intrigue and the North Kingdom is a stronghold of evil that justifies itself with ancient divine right. Or whatever.
The illustrations are vital, too - we didn't need a picture of Cobb Darg standing next to Elaine Mystica, we needed a portrait of a Tenha warrior, a Onnwal freedom fighter, and a City of Greyhawk thief. We should get obvious visual hooks to distinguish Frost Barbarians from Snow Barbarians, and Wolf Nomads from Rovers of the Barrens. How does Dyvers look different from Greyhawk? How is Rel Astra different from Pontylver? We needed a pictures or at least vivid descriptions of places like Enstad, Irongate, and Kalstrand. The illustrations we got were perfunctory and served only to mimic the text - we need game aids.
The whole book needs to change focus, remembering that it's primarily a game aid. Hooks and intrigue are great, but what can I show/read aloud to my players? How can I clearly convey what this nation/race/organization/forest/lake/ocean is, and how it differs from its neighbors and rivals?
There is a danger, of course, of being too exclusionary - it should always be remembered that in Greyhawk things are often gray, and it should be just as possible to play Ket or the Pale as stern bastions of righteousness as it is to present them as villainous fanatics.
Honestly, the core setting books for Eberron and the Forgotten Realms bore me too, if you try to use the descriptions of cities and nations as anything but a reference to refer to when they come up. Although they can be improved on as well, the primary difference is that they're not only encyclopedias of places - they also devote themselves to conveying mood and feel. Eberron isn't primarily the setting with the hobgoblin nation, but the setting where you can play a living suit of armor or a guy with a psionic dream-mind grafted to his humanity.
This is tricky with Greyhawk, as part of its strength is its flexibility, the fact that it's D&D's foundation and not its variation. It wouldn't do to say Greyhawk is about moral ambiguity when it's clearly a place that can be entirely about stark contrasts between Good and Evil if that's what you want to emphasize. It wouldn't do to say Greyhawk is about gritty, low-magic, low-level sword-and-sorcery action when it's clearly also a place of high magic and epic confrontations. From a business point of view, it has to be a place that can fit all the crazy things that appear in optional D&D books while still remaining itself - it wouldn't do to say there are no ninjas/warlocks/psion uncarnates in Greyhawk when they can fit in just fine.
Greyhawk was initially probably sold based on the fact that it had a map that was better than any other world-map anyone was likely to find. It has an excellently designed set of nations, peoples, and conflicts that fit seemlessly with virtually everything that was D&D at that point, but that alone won't sell it today. More importantly, it has developed its own unique identity over the years, and that can sell it. The challenge is presenting its distinctive points without trying to impose limitations on what Greyhawk can be, and that's something that's eluded a lot of people at TSR and WotC to date.
The Living Greyhawk book? It was terrible. I ended up just using the 30 page Greyhawk Atlas that they put out. A basic Greyhawk Primer would be great for new players. I am lucky to have a couple of guys in my group who played GH back in the day and they help cover some of the gaps that exsist.
As for the RPGA. Hey, its a great organization. The living GH guys and the web-sites, again hats off. If you have the time to sort all of that out more power to you. The local RPGA are a bit ... heavy handed and not worth the trouble to get help from. Again just one book that starts out with GH 101 and then the setting, unique monsters, and stuff. Do not stamp it with LG or RPGA, just D&D 3.5 Greyhawk Setting. It would sell.
Not trying to fan any flames, just the common DM expressing his thoughts.
Thank you
Kale
As for saying it was no good, saying you use the D&D Gaz, then asking for an FRCS or ECS sized book, you must be joking. The LGG contains significanly more basic information than those books, and is almost completely rules free, making it useful for any version of the rules. Instead you praise a hopelessly cut down version that requires you to get filler information from other players, while asking for tons of additional rules to make the setting book harder for new players to deal with, as well as future setting books that will add more than just psionics rules and changes from novels. Whether or not there is an LG or RPGA tag on the book won't change that, but insisting it be utterly separated from any other core releases will. (After 5 years of being told "No" people still keep hoping they will change the LG rules and let psionics in.)
(After 5 years of being told "No" people still keep hoping they will change the LG rules and let psionics in.)
LG doesn't use psionics? Even though there's been psionics in Greyhawk since... well, since Gygax wrote the rules for them?
LG doesn't use psionics?
No, Living Greyhawk expressly prohibits psionics - thank goodness. Psionics completely unbalanced and broke many Mark of Heroes tables.
I was hoping that Xen'drik Expeditions would keep psionics at arm's length, too. But, I guess not. *sigh*
No, Living Greyhawk expressly prohibits psionics - thank goodness. Psionics completely unbalanced and broke many Mark of Heroes tables.
Considering that the XPH as at least as balanced as core material, I'm curious how psionic could have done such a thing.
The Living Greyhawk book was not well done. It honestly looked (and read) very rushed. The information provided did not give me as a DM much to work with. I read the thing twice and it just all blurred together. Read the post again by ripvanwormer. He nails it.
LC, RPGA, and whatever else you want to call it has really just...for lack of a better term, munchkined the heck out of GH. RPGA is happy with it, great, now how about GH for the rest of us, who like the setting but do not want to have to deal with this RPGA ordering adventures baloney. Living GH was a primer for LIVING GH. All I think most of us want, is one non LGH, simple Core Setting book. A nice hard back like FR and Eberron.
Something else to consider. Your local RPGA may be super nice, the local groups around here have turned a lot of folks off of LGH and everything else. I have to constantly remind myself that most communities have nice RPGA members, the ones here are extremely elitist.
later
Kale
If you have issues with the local RPGA groups then you have issues with the local RPGA groups. Don't project those onto the entire RPGA, the LG campaign, or LGG. Of the three paragraphs in your reply two of them are complaints about the RPGA, which has nothing to do with the content or quality of the LGG. How those are valid reasons for calling the LGG of poor quality is something I simply don't see.
As for the quality of the LGG, I don't think rip nails it at all. While I think a lot of things could have been better in the LGG, I don't think anyone likes the art, and everyone would have loved to see more, I don't think overplaying the flavor would have been for the best. That detracted a lot from early PS products until it was toned down.
As a DM, I found the LGG filled with material to work with. Indeed, reading it all at once the material will blur together because of how much there is. It must be read and absorbed in sections.
Ok. I see your point. My experince with the local members of the RPGA is coloring my feelings about some of this. For that I apologise, this is not the place for that kinda of thing. The LGH book just needed something more. It had tons of information, but to me, it lacked character. It seemed to be a book that really pushed for one to go play LGH. I felt that the old AD&D Players guide and gave me more information on GH than the LGH did.
A nice updated verison for both groups, RPGA and Home Gamers would be would be nice. I think that is what everybody would want.
Later
Kale
Would a GHCS be really good for both the Tabletop and LG factions? You know it. Would it be nice if a traveling group could get more than one region of adventures? Yes. My old campaign died because our ship couldn't go anywhere except our region (which had no coast, btw). Maybe a set of carefully guarded exceptions need to be considered, but it is likely to be more trouble than it's worth.
Oggie
As for a GHCS being useful for both the RPGA and home gamers, I am confused. Exactly what in the LGG prevents it from being used for home games? What in the LGG prevents you from going to whatever GH nation you want to, and adventuring there in whatever manner the DM wants you to?
The answer of course, is nowhere.
The LG Campaign has limits, although as noted they are on what a DM can order and run, not what a player can play if he travels. But the LG campaign is a separate, distinct campaign from any home campaign someone might run.
Oh, and there are exceptions on where LG characters can adventure. They are called meta-regional and core adventures.
Later,
Kale
As for what we have, we have the LGG. Aside from the L at the start of the title, it has in fact nothing to do with the LG campaign. That is all I am trying to make clear on that book. In addition, there are a number of questions about the LG campaign I will answer, and several statement that do not accurately reflect the nature of the campaign that I will respond to. But if you don't want to play LG, that is only your loss.
As for what people want, look through these forums. For everyone who says they want more you can find someone who doesn't want anything else. I happen to be one of those who would like to see more GH books. But until they appear I don't see anything to be gained in dismissing LG, or in dismissing the LGG.
As for what you specifically asked for, the Core deities are appearing in Dragon magazine, there are monster books all over the place, and with a bit of digging you can find the Circle of Eight info in the LGJ #0. You can also try getting very old issues of Dragon Magazine with the GH deities in them, or a copy of the 83 set or FtA, both of which are available as pdfs at Paizo. I'm sure those aren't exactly what you want, but there is more out there if you really want to get it.
The LGH book was not helpful to me due the amount of what seems non related info it provided. That book needed to be better organized with a each section having a mini map (ala FR) to show the relations better between the kingdoms. I understand that yes I can go online and visit each triad and piece it all together but who wants to? I also want some of the Greyhawk Deties better explained, the specifics on the Circle of the Eight (and Stats), Monsters. I see a possiblity of two maybe three GH Specific setting books here that folks like me, who want to run GH without the hassle can enjoy.
I'm also puzzled at how you've apparently missed all the info that the LGG contains. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination - it certianly needed more cash spent on art and the like and the maps you suggest would have been helpful. That said - the main map sets out quite clearly where all the different realms are.
The issue of production values aside - what is it about the information it provides that renders it (a) apparently useless and (b) only useful for LG? For my money, the amount of information (and the breadth of the sources it complied) in the LGG beats any other single GH resource. There was new information on every single realm. There was new information on most of the gods and there were several new organisations. It also summarised the entire history of the Flanaess rather neatly.
What's non-related? Where's the hassle?
As for LG content - the only relevent section was the last page or two listing the regions and modes of character creation. You mention it doesn't have stats, but doesn't that make it more useful to more players (not everyone plays 3.x D&D) and less LG specific?
I guess I'm asking - what do you want here? Sure - I'd buy a new GH campaign setting book in the mold of Five Kingdoms in an eyeblink - but that doesn't take away from the utility and value of the LGG.
The Living Greyhawk book was not well done. It honestly looked (and read) very rushed. The information provided did not give me as a DM much to work with. I read the thing twice and it just all blurred together. Read the post again by ripvanwormer. He nails it.
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer isn't connected to the Living Greyhawk Campaign at all, except that the campaign uses it as one of their sources.
As for what I wrote, it felt brilliant when I was writing it, but looked like nonsense the next day. Although, not for the reasons Samwise gave; I'm not advocating a PS-level of flavor text, just a short, vivid paragraph for each nation, equivalent to the descriptions in front of monster statblocks.
As towards the RPGA locals, let's just say I doubt you would understand without actually being subject to their behavior. Suffice it to say that no one joins the RPGA from here, and most members have turned in their cards. Oh, and one of the two left is dissolving as of the end of next month, and no one has heard anything from the Redknobbers or whatever they're calling themselves since March. Not that we'll bother to ask.
Oggie
The issue of production values aside - what is it about the information it provides that renders it (a) apparently useless and (b) only useful for LG? For my money, the amount of information (and the breadth of the sources it complied) in the LGG beats any other single GH resource. There was new information on every single realm. There was new information on most of the gods and there were several new organisations. It also summarised the entire history of the Flanaess rather neatly.
What's non-related? Where's the hassle?
LG online can be a fantastic source of gazeteer information. The regions I'm working on for my home campaign gazeteer tend to be 180 pages per region! That level of information is simply too much for any official sourcebook. The Marklands et al had the right idea in presenting teasers for the regions but even if you just look at articles that have appeared on WotC for 3.5, a stat block and description of a major settlement takes up fair bit of room on its own.
As far as LG goes, I'm very interested in seeing published official 'histories' for each region and the meta regions so that we can keep track of major events. Teaser information on npcs and locations featured in retired mods would also be very welcome. Stas on defeated major npcs (like critical threats in Dungeon) would also be really cool (so get submitting).
For your home campaign, you can take or leave LG exactly the same as you can official canon. I'd just like the information to be accessable so I can make the choice!
However, I think it's daft to complain because you have that choice!
It's been revealed that Erik Mona's got some secret project he's working on, so the Greyhawk loyalists automatically think it's connected to Greyhawk. Most likely, it isn't.
Wotc has repeatedly failed to do the right thing concerning Greyhawk. Why would they want to change a losing record like that?
How would publishing a book for Greyhawk be doing the setting right? I just want to know why people have this attitude about it. Its not like Greyhawk is a person that was wronged and it has been given 2 extra chances to be revived and is doing quite well now with the RPGA Living Greyhawk campaign. The setting just isn't profitable for WOTC so why continue to poor money into it? I'm a huge Greyhawk fan but I just don't see how this attitude is healthy.
Jason
I'd buy a couple, just to make the point.
But it wouldn't be making a point.
It's great for DMs. I love it, and used it all the time. It's not so great for players who just want an overview of the setting and for DMs who want to give players mechanical elements that tie into the setting such as regional feats and prestige classes. When I started my Greyhawk campaign, I would never have expected players to absorb all of that content, which was only organized by nations, and have to read through so much dense material just to introduce themselves to the setting.
For players there is the D&D Gazetteer, for DM's The LGG
J
I think a Greyhawk relaunch would be like or worse than Dragonlance: Age of Mortals. Everyone would respect it, but de facto noone of the older generation of gamers would play it.
Now if you're using the Realms as your measure of what is 'profitable enough', you've got more problems than I can list. If you're looking at the returns on investment ratios that were in my business classes (5% sustained, I think), GH has to be well above that if it's a little below the Realms.
Ergo, the decision was likely made by someone without advanced education in business administration, or maybe a corporate min/maxer (they exist).
Oggie
Personally, I am not too eager to see more WoG updates.
I think a Greyhawk relaunch would be like or worse than Dragonlance: Age of Mortals. Everyone would respect it, but de facto noone of the older generation of gamers would play it.
That's taking it a bit far, Raf. I think that would depend on what year they chose as "current year" in the revised edition. Thankfully, nothing as dramatic as the
that was DL's 5th Age happened on GH.That's taking it a bit far, Raf. I think that would depend on what year they chose as "current year" in the revised edition. Thankfully, nothing as dramatic as the
Of course I am exaggerating, as usual. ;) With thousands of players all over the world, I would think that every book released as a supplement on the LG line would still bring considerable sales.Now, apart from that, I am still unsure. Any update (judging from the current situation, most likely after an end of the LG campaign, or as a sort of LG campaign update) would be very different from the earlier setting - and, in difference to post-war Greyhawk, it would be hard to explain most of the changes, since those changes were the product of inner LG dynamics non-players would not know about.
In short, I fear that a possible WoG update would present a future Flanaess, but without comprehensible explanations to most of the changes. My old stuff would be outdated, but I would have no understanding of the modern material. - I would definitely BUY a new WoG book, but I doubt I would really use it - apart from geographical similarities, it possibly could be an entire renewed setting.
As for what I wrote, it felt brilliant when I was writing it, but looked like nonsense the next day. Although, not for the reasons Samwise gave; I'm not advocating a PS-level of flavor text, just a short, vivid paragraph for each nation, equivalent to the descriptions in front of monster statblocks.
I disagree Rip. Highlighting that some RPG books are game accessories seems right on point. As much as I like the LGG's encyclopedic resource, neither it, nor the publications that precede it provide what you evoked:
giving first impressions and general flavor for a DM would read aloud to players to concisely show what each nation is supposed to be. ... we should find out immediately that Ket is a place of radicalized religious fanatics and Zeif is a wealthy, ancient empire, that the Yeomanry is full of proud, democratic peasants and Geoff is a land of heroic giant-slayers, that Ahlissa is a hive of Machiavellian intrigue and the North Kingdom is a stronghold of evil that justifies itself with ancient divine right. Or whatever.
Similarly, excellent illustrations of the Flanaess could benefit GH campaigns significantly. On this point, while I found the LGG illustrations of poor quality--more sketches than book illustrations--its illustrations did represent aspects of GH. If you recall the online fans' conversations in the years leading up to its publication, you can see several of them "answered by" / referenced / incorporated by the LGG's illustrations. E.g., an idea of being able to beach a flat-bottomed coaster at a Wild Coast town.
While I agree with Samwise that I wouldn't want the design to be so distinctive as DiTerlizzi's art for Planescape (beautiful and mythopoetic as it was / is), reviewing some FR books at the store recently and admiring the binding of the newest D&D books, I believe strongly that a new Greyhawk publication should set a distinctive publication and design standard.
It seemed to be a book that really pushed for one to go play LGH.
YEAH! 2 WHOLE PAGES ENTIRELY DEVOTED TO NOTHING BUT SHOWING ME HOW TO PLAY IN RPGA LG GAMES! IT'S AN OUTRAGE!
I felt that the old AD&D Players guide and gave me more information on GH than the LGH did.
Dude, seriously, come on. Every post you make I get more and more sure you've never actually read the LGG...