A half-giant, unarmed with Improved Unarmed Strike, is adjacent to an elf, wielding a Kyorkcha.
The Situation
The elf attempts to throw the kyorkcha at the half-giant, draws an attack of opportunity. For the AoO, the half-giant chooses to grapple, and succeeds.
The Question
Can the elf still attack with the kyorkcha?
Serious. What else are those saves there for except things like this? And poison.
Long story short...
Elf really wasn't sane in the first place
Elf gets attack by kreen
Elf survives the attack
Elf grabs kyorkcha
Elf decides to slay every kreen with kyorkcha
(Of course, now he's stuck in the arenas as a slave)
Poor elf gets no revenge... sad really.
1) Elf attacks half-giant with ranged weapon, provoking attack of opportunity.
2) Half-giant takes AoO, thanks to having Improved Unarmed Strike, and decides to grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity.
3) Elf takes his attack of opportunity, which has to be a melee attack...in this case using the kyorkcha as an improvised weapon at a -4 penalty (or whatever penalty you think is appropriate)
4) If the elf's AoO deals damage then the grapple fails, so the elf takes his ranged attack as normal. If the AoO fails, however, then he can't do a ranged attack, so instead gets to (theoretically) make a second improvised melee attack with his kyorkcha, assuming it's a light weapon.
So it's quite possible that the giant has just turned a single attack into two of 'em.
I'd assume that you can't grapple as an attack of opportunity unless you have some sort of feat like improved grapple, just as normally you can't use a missile attack or spell or psi-power as attack of opportunity, unless you have a feat that allows it (like opportunity power).
I was wondering about that as well, as 3.5e isn't very clear on this. IIRC, when I was reading the AoO and grapple rules before posting my screwed-up how-it'd-work idea, I went with the ruling that you can grapple as part of an attack of opportunity as the AoO entry says 'you get to make a melee attack' and under the grapple rules it says 'this is a melee attack' or something to that effect, and also indicates that you can make multiple grapple attempts based on your BAB (something else to indicate that it works like a "normal melee attack"). Even the glossary says that a melee attack is "A physical attack suitable for close combat" which is pretty ambiguous, but then again grappling is suitable for close combat, so...*shrug*
When the closest textual reading of a rule results in chaos, contradiction, or absurdity, we generally look for other interpretations of the rule.
I tried applying that idea to the Real World(tm), and all it got me was a prison sentence.
Attacks of opportunity cannot provoke AoO - that would be just dumb. Also, I do not think you can grapple as part of an AoO.
Heh no argument there (re: dumb), and if an AoO can't provoke an AoO, and since grappling *does* provoke an AoO, then it's logical that you couldn't grapple as part of an AoO as that would go against the clearly-stated grapple rules.
Woot.
This whole discussion is getting worse by the minute. Good thing the last day's worth of posts will go away tonight and we can all pretend it never, ever happened. RIGHT?
Well, then I would say only if you have Improved Grapple can you grapple as an AoO. Just to save headaches.
I would just suggest reading over the AoO and grapple stuff again and I think you will see what I mean.
And also remember this - there are many critters out there who have improved grap, meaning that they would fall under your ruling to getting a grapple if they landed a strike during an AoO. If I was the DM of a game where this was going on - I could see some bad things happening with this when critters had reach and combat reflexes. I can also see this snow-balling into making trip attacks as part of an attack of opportunity - which if sucessful allows for a free strike against the tripped opponent - so you get a character with a guisarme, improved trip, combat reflexes, and spring attack and thats it - I would be a trippen, stabbing, spring attacking fool and now one could get close to! (I have been accused of being a power-gamer and I would have to agree - which is why I do not allow things like what I have above).
And what about characters with the Close-Quarters Fighting (CompWar) which allows you to take an AoO against an opponent attempting to grapple you even if they have a feat or ability that would otherwise prevent you from taking an AoO?
What then, smart guy? WHAT THEN!?
I don't know! I'm scared. Ahhh!I should just disallow AoO.... yes... that would fix it.
Is it possible for an attack of opportunity to provoke an attack of opportunity? For example, a fighter attempts to trip a cleric. The cleric chooses to make a sunder attack against the fighter’s weapon as his attack of opportunity. Does the sunder attack then provoke an attack of opportunity from the fighter?
Yes. An attack of opportunity is adjudicated just like any other attack, and it is subject to the same rules (including provoking additional attacks of opportunity). This can lead to odd situations where as the reason for the original action no longer exists. If this starts to confuse you, just remember that D&D combat is an abstract representation of battle, and not necessarily a precise second-by-second representation of every maneuver. Even the “sequential” nature of D&D combat—I make my attacks, then you make your attacks, then I make my attacks, and so forth—is an artificial creation used to keep combat moving quickly.
Using the example you provide, the fighter is indeed allowed to make an attack of opportunity against the cleric. (This attack could, in turn, provoke yet another attack of opportunity from the cleric, but the cleric could make such an attack only if he were allowed more than one attack of opportunity in a single round.)
These attacks are performed in a “Last In, First Out” sequence. The last attack of opportunity declared is the first one resolved, with the remaining attacks resolved in reverse order of their declaration, assuming the character can still make the attack. If the fighter drops the cleric with his attack of opportunity, the rest of the attacks in the sequence—including the cleric’s attack of opportunity and the fighter’s original trip attack—do not occur. The actions are still “spent,” however—the fighter doesn’t get to use that original attack on some other target (although if he has other attacks remaining he may take them as normal).
With that ruling, however, realize that you'd also have to allow disarm, trip and possibly even sunder attempts to be taken as an AoO, as all (sunder being the slight exception) are worded similar to grapple ('...as a melee attack").
And what about characters with the Close-Quarters Fighting (CompWar) which allows you to take an AoO against an opponent attempting to grapple you even if they have a feat or ability that would otherwise prevent you from taking an AoO?
What then, smart guy? WHAT THEN!?
See it is that reason that I said that disallowing grapples as AoO is the only way to go! Way too much chance for really heavy handed abuse.
Dirk - see what we would need it a adamantine huge guisarme and a fighter with these feats: Improved Trip, Improved Sunder, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Reflexes, Monkey Grip, and the feat from the PHBII that allow you to shift a weapon from reach to close-quarters as a free action. This guy would trip anyone coming close to him, then get a free attack to either sunder the opponents weapon or armor or attack their body.
*sigh*
Kal - And don't forget Stand Still and Elusive Target tactical feat; that way no one is going to bypass your awesomeness with a charge, and thanks to Elusive Target you get to make a free trip attack against every one of the bazillionty people you move past as you're taking your Spring Attack against an opponent in the middle of the enemy formation. Even better, Combat Brute - that way you get an additional attack against an opponent whose weapon or shield you just sundered, which of course you do another sunder attack with, basically destroying every piece of weaponry on them with a single attack action.
With prereq feats for all of this (Power Attack and Combat Expertise) that makes a total of 12 feats, so we're talkin' a 12th level fighter to pull this off.Thank you, WotC FAQ; I now know what my next character is going to be. :evillaugh
From my understanding, the reason you provoke an AoO when making a grapple is because you enter your opponent's square as a part of initiating the grapple. You cannot do a "grapple loop" because you can only enter your opponent's square one time.
It's actually worded quite specifically that you provoke an AoO after you declare the grapple and before anything else happens, and if that AoO hits then the grapple fails. Otherwise you then make a melee touch attack, and following that make a grapple check to deal unarmed damage and actually start the grapple, and then you move into the opponent's square.
Dirk - I actually had a player try this before and I e-mailed Dragon Mag to get them to give me a ruling (I think this was like 2 1/2 years ago or something with I was DMing the Shackled City adventure path for some people at the weeking gaming nigth they had there on campus.
I did not know about the FAQ, but i did know it could not be done - I just had to dig through all my e-mail to find the response I got (yes - I have a cluttered mailbox).
I like thinking of thigs like this because it is COOL - hell sometimes I sit around and just make up PCs - like this weekend I rolled up a sweet set of stats (no fudging) and decided I would make a band of all Epic characters - like 6 of them - at 23rd level. Two are finished - one is a minotaur barabrian 15/ monstrous humaniod 6/ LA +2 who has like 350 hit points and a half-gold dragon paladin 20/ LA+3 whose special mount is a gold dragon (his yourger hald-brother). But seeing as how I am unsure about the status of minotaus in DS and there bring no half-dragons - I will not post them on the DS site. [but I could scan them and e-mail them to people who like that kind of stuff]
Hmm... interesting... so a grapple loop is quite possible.. so how would one resolve that?
Essentially, 1 Character A declares he is throwing his weapon, which provokes an attack of opportunity
2 Adjacent Character B declares he is going to try grappling as his AoO
3 Since grappling provokes AoO, Character A declares that he is going to strike Character B with his weapon before he throws it. Since melee attacks don't usually provoke AoO, it ends here.
Resolution in reverse order.
3 - let him make his strike, if he does damage, grapple ends immediately, is bypassed and original character gets to throw his weapon
If the attack fails to do damage, grapple is resolved as normal. If it succeeds, throwing the weapon does not happen. If the grapple attempt fails to hit with the touch attack or the resulting grapple check fails, then Character A still gets to throw his weapon, since he is not grappling when it comes time for him to resolve his original attack
Oh, and moving into the characters space comes in step 4, maintaining a grapple, it has to succeed first. You don't try to move in while it is still being attempted.
Now, as for the Grapple Loop, assuming people have combat reflexes and multiple AoO's, the loop proceeds till someone actually succeeds at a grapple check. If you are the initiator of a grapple and you succeed, you get to deal unarmed strike damage immediately. If you are the defender and you succeed, you simply prevent the grapple from taking place. Assuming you have enough AoO's to reverse grapple, you continue until an attacking grappler succeeds and starts an actual grapple
Basically it's a
"I'm gonna grapple you!"
"Oh yeah? Not if I grapple you first!"
"Well, you can't grapple me first if I already got you grappled!"
Since the first attacking grappler that succeeds establishes the grapple, inflicts damage, and establishes the hold. Once the grapple starts though, everyone grappling can attempt grappling maneuvers on their turn. You can try to escape, pin, attack with a light weapon, etc. Once the grapple actually takes place, there is no longer any difference between who started the grapple and who was defending against it, both parties are now grapplers
I like thinking of thigs like this because it is COOL - hell sometimes I sit around and just make up PCs
Heh me too, I'm an amature quantum physicist, pschologist, sociologist, etc. etc. etc., and somewhat of an anarchist to boot, so analyzing rules and thinking up bizarre ways to abuse the heck out of them (preferrably in highly entertaining ways) takes up a lot of my free time as well. It's also the biggest reason why I love GMing, and especially for Dark Sun - it's such a unique game world that has none-the-less been fleshed out really nicely that it gives me all sorts of unique places and situations to work with, and with the various contradictions and "missing" game history it also leaves me a lot of room to throw in my own ideas and such.
My DS games are always *way* overpowered - it's one of the main reasons my gaming group likes me running it, so they can have retardedly-powerful characters that are complete abuses of the rules with a DM that just smiles and says "feel free to do that." By the same token, however, it lets me make all sorts of equally ludicrous NPCs for them to go up against. Some of their past run-ins have been with a high-level defiler/demonologist from Balic (member of the Chamber of Patricians, including the PP idea that they have their eyes and tongues removed, so he had Blind-Fighting and applied Silent Spell to every spell he memorized), a halfling blighter, an undead gnome illusionist, and most recently they (at an average PC level of 23rd) took on the Dragon in a bid to save Free Balic from his wrath (they didn't pay the Levy) - awesome battle that lasted around 4 hours even against the Dragon at his CR 63 or whatever it was I spec'ed him out at (3 full 10-point pages of stats to keep track of everything he could do :D ), they obviously didn't kill him but they were able to keep themselves alive long enough (that is, enough were alive at any given moment to use Wish/Raise Dead/Reality Revision to bring the others' back) that he eventually ran out of nearly all of his spells and over half of his PPs and decided "okay, this isn't worth it anymore" and so was willing to agree to a "lesser bargain" and "allow" Balic to remain standing.