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Dwarf Wizard Problem

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
havard
Jul 17, 2006 9:22:40 From another thread:
The_Stalker wrote:
#2
gazza555
Jul 17, 2006 9:42:31 Instead of outright prohibiting the classes how about a racial penalty to casting arcane spells? (rather like the penalty for casting in armour)

Regards
Gary
#3
gawain_viii
Jul 17, 2006 22:41:15 What I've eleceted to do in my project is pretty much the same as Havard's second suggestion... A feat will be offered to dwarves as a "Regional" feat (making it's selection more probable) giving characters who select it (probably dwarves, halflings and gnomes) the (racially/historically popular) option of extensive magic resistance in the form of a +2 save bonus to all magic and magic-like effects, with the penalty of forfeiting any and all arcane spellcasting abilities (they can still select arcane classes, just can't cast spells) or being equally vulnerable to arcane magic and having the (unpopular) option of being an arcane caster (as well as a cultural outcast).

A similar feat will be available for divine magic, but not related to any specific region.

Roger
#4
Hugin
Jul 17, 2006 23:24:01 I like Havard's suggestions but I find myself with a combination of two mentalities that the gazetteers contain:
- One; just because you haven't heard about 'them' before does not mean they don't exist. 'Them' can be several things from an organization, an Immortal, a dwarven cleric, or a Hakomon.
- Two; information in a gazetteer should be considered (and I think it is), given in a skewed or slanted view, from the the point of view of those people described within that gaz. Examples would include the Shadowelves (probably the most obvious example) as given in the Alfhiem gaz, half-elf mechanics, and some of the history contradictions.

So, my approach is to say a Dwarven Wizard is unheard of, but not an absolute impossibility. The player should know that the consequences of such a character in a game would be great! Often on the negative side.
#5
Traianus_Decius_Aureus
Jul 18, 2006 8:16:26 We keep this as a roleplay/ flavor issue, not a rules issue. It is not a physical or mental reason (read rules) that keeps dwarves from the arcane classes, but a cultural one. These cultural beliefs are so dominant that the negative consequences make a character flaunting them a pariah, cast out from their clan and possibly in danger from more conservative elements of society. Sometimes a rule is too restrictive- I say let the character go against the grain (and this would be an extreme case), but make him pay the price for his choice.
#6
zombiegleemax
Jul 18, 2006 10:29:52
We keep this as a roleplay/ flavor issue, not a rules issue. It is not a physical or mental reason (read rules) that keeps dwarves from the arcane classes, but a cultural one. These cultural beliefs are so dominant that the negative consequences make a character flaunting them a pariah, cast out from their clan and possibly in danger from more conservative elements of society. Sometimes a rule is too restrictive- I say let the character go against the grain (and this would be an extreme case), but make him pay the price for his choice.

That's what I would do, as I don't like blanket restrictions on what PCs can do. A dwarf who was known to be versed in arcane magic would be outcast from dwarf society. He would still be unwelcome elsewhere due to preconceptions "What do you mean, you don't wear armour and you don't want to be at the front of the combat? What kind of dwarf are you?"

Also gives you the option to play a dwarf wizard in dwarf culture, but you have to keep it secret. Could be fun. In fact I think I may go and create one right now .....
#7
zombiegleemax
Jul 18, 2006 11:27:08 Dwarven wizard...in all the 3e play I have seen or heard about, its been done...zero times. I see material on it and people talk about it, but even were the rules allow it, its not popular. That being said the Gaz themself make referance to dwarfs using arcane magic. But not specifialy a class. Of course those dwarfs are outcast, evil, insane, and are used a curse words. Thier name translates as "rotten dwarfs" I recall. Its the Northen Reaches Gaz, I belive they use rituals with souls to enchant items. Personally I like Harvard's idea of a bonus to magic saves but a built in spell failure chance. It makes it harder or a dwarf arcane caster but not imposable. If you go with 3e i'd also suggest the unearth arcana. Why should none fighter dwarfs not wear heavy armor? Prehaps a modifacation of all dwarven classes to reflect the concept that all dwarfs are warriors. Battle-rangers, battle-rouges, battle-ect.
#8
johnbiles
Jul 18, 2006 17:55:49
Dwarven wizard...in all the 3e play I have seen or heard about, its been done...zero times. I see material on it and people talk about it, but even were the rules allow it, its not popular. That being said the Gaz themself make referance to dwarfs using arcane magic. But not specifialy a class. Of course those dwarfs are outcast, evil, insane, and are used a curse words. Thier name translates as "rotten dwarfs" I recall. Its the Northen Reaches Gaz, I belive they use rituals with souls to enchant items. Personally I like Harvard's idea of a bonus to magic saves but a built in spell failure chance. It makes it harder or a dwarf arcane caster but not imposable. If you go with 3e i'd also suggest the unearth arcana. Why should none fighter dwarfs not wear heavy armor? Prehaps a modifacation of all dwarven classes to reflect the concept that all dwarfs are warriors. Battle-rangers, battle-rouges, battle-ect.

The Modrigzwerg, yeah.

The Dwarves who live in Alphatia are another group where you could logically have Dwarven Wizards and Sorcerors.
#9
happylarry
Jul 19, 2006 14:08:42 Hmmm interesting.

When i started reading this thread, and the related discussions elsewhere - i was thinking - anathema to dwarven wizards - but now I'm thinking - hmmm roleplaying opportunities - rotten dwarfs, secret societies - could be fun.

Maybe i should buy 3.5e after all...
#10
zombiegleemax
Jul 20, 2006 16:37:50 Here's a compilation of the statements about dwarves from the "race" section of each class from the PHB:

Barbarian
"Dwarf barbarians are rare, usually hailing from dwarven kingdoms that have fallen into barbarism as a result of recurrent war with goblinoids, orcs, and giants." p24

Bard
"There are no bardic tradtions among dwarves and halfings though occasionally individuals of these races find teachers to train them in the ways of the bard." p27

Cleric
"All the common races are represented in this class, since the need for religion and divine magic is universal. (...) Crusading, adventuring clerics often come from the human and dwarf races." p30

Druid
"Dwarves, halfings, and half-orcs are rarely druids." p34

Fighter
"Dwarf fighters are commonly former members of the well-trained strike teams that protect the underground dwarven kingdoms. They are typically members of warrior families that can trace their lineages back for millenia, and they may have rivalries or alliances with other dwarf fighters of a different lineage." p38

Monk
"The monk tradition is alien to dwarf and gnome culture, and halflings typically have too mobile a lifestyle to commit themselves to a monastery, so dwarves, gnomes, and halflings very rarely become monks." p40

Paladin
"Dwarves are sometimes paladins, but becoming a paladin may be hard on a dwarf because it means putting the duties of the paladin's life before duties to family, clan, and king." p43

Ranger
"Dwarf rangers are rare, but they can be quite effective. Instead of living in the surface wilderness, they are at home in the endless caverns beneath the earth. Here they hunt down and destroy the enemies of dwarvenkind with the relentless precision for which dwarves are known. Dwarf rangers are often known as cavers." p47

Rogue
"Dwarf and gnome rogues, while less common, are renowned as experts with locks and traps." p49

Sorcerer
"Most sorcerers are humans or half-elves, but the innate talent for sorcery is unpredictable, and it can show up in any of the common races." p53

Wizard
"Dwarf and halfling wizards are rare because their societies don't encourage the study of magic." p56
#11
the_stalker
Jul 20, 2006 16:54:09
The Dwarves who live in Alphatia are another group where you could logically have Dwarven Wizards and Sorcerors.

Erm, no. The dwarves of Denwarf-Hurgon are just dwarves from Rockhome who were invited to Alphatia and given their own lands to develop some 50 years before the gazetteer-era, because the Alphatians felt it was easier to give the dwarves their own lands and so have the dwarves be craftsmen in Alphatia than it was for the Alphatians to learn comparable crafts themselves. And 50 years is a short time for a dwarf, so there is no basis for that. Learning magic is not even why those dwarves went there, nor were they outcasts from Rockhome anymore than the dwarves of Highforge in Karameikos or Buhrohur in Thyatis.
#12
rhialto
Jul 21, 2006 5:54:52 It is also established that the dwarfs of Denwarf-Hurgon in Alphatia are ruled by a dwarfen cleric. Priestly magic use satisfies the Alphatian nobility laws quite well. Even if the dwarfs had been established for generations there, there wouldn't be any special social pressure on them to learn magery, although I could see an enlarged priestly class (which in itself would have the effect of reinforcing cultural resistance to learning magery).
#13
the_stalker
Jul 21, 2006 7:22:24
It is also established that the dwarfs of Denwarf-Hurgon in Alphatia are ruled by a dwarfen cleric.

Buthra Bofadar is a dwarf-cleric? Not that I'm saying you're wrong, but if that's true, then I'd like to know where we know that from. She wasn't described in DotE AFAIK, and I think she was described only in PWA1, where it says, "Buthra, a military dwarf, is a no-nonsense, no-compromise dwarf" (PWA1, p.133). That sounds more like a standard dwarf to me, and her stats list her class/level only as "D12".

Priestly magic use satisfies the Alphatian nobility laws quite well.

No, there is no reason for that. Stoutfellow does not follow the mainland Alphatia's aristocrat/commoner distinction, and DotE even goes to great lengths to tell us that the regulations and government in Stoutfellow is very close to those in Rockhome. You could say that's very similar to neighbouring Stonewall, but I find it interesting that the description of that nation actually says that there is still an official distinction between aristocrats and commoners there, only they are not observed by the authorities. And obviously the ruler is still a spellcaster in Stonewall. It doesn't sound to me like that is the case in Stoutfellow, who have their own, separate rules for those in the rest of the Alphatian mainland.

Even if the dwarfs had been established for generations there, there wouldn't be any special social pressure on them to learn magery, although I could see an enlarged priestly class (which in itself would have the effect of reinforcing cultural resistance to learning magery).

Right. The dwarves (and halflings and gnomes) were INVITED to settle there and even given autonomy and separate laws. The Alphatians were not trying to create a nation of dwarven wizards. They just wanted them there for their skills at crafts.
#14
weasel_fierce
Jul 22, 2006 11:59:40 I dont play 3.x, but if running a Mystara game, I'd have no qualms about refusing access to wizardry, for dwarves and halflings. Its implicit in the setting.
I forget if they get a bonus to saves vs spells, but if they dont,throw it in there.
#15
vgeisz_dup
Jul 22, 2006 15:20:58 The earlier post mentioning the mordigswerg is a little off IMO. Having studied it for our conversion they are more like Eberron's Artificers. they can enhance items but cant cast spells per say. they actually use something more akin to divine magic because they use the souls of creatures to actually enchant items.
Vern
#16
havard
Jul 23, 2006 16:45:43
The earlier post mentioning the mordigswerg is a little off IMO. Having studied it for our conversion they are more like Eberron's Artificers. they can enhance items but cant cast spells per say. they actually use something more akin to divine magic because they use the souls of creatures to actually enchant items.
Vern

I think eberron artificers would work for both of the dwarven races. I dont see why the usage of souls neccesarily would have to involve divine magic though. Binding souls would just as easily fall under the arcane realm. But really, so little official information is given on the Moulder Dwarves that they could go either way.

Havard

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 havard Jul 17, 2006 9:22:40	From another thread: The_Stalker wrote:
#2 gazza555 Jul 17, 2006 9:42:31	Instead of outright prohibiting the classes how about a racial penalty to casting arcane spells? (rather like the penalty for casting in armour) Regards Gary
#3 gawain_viii Jul 17, 2006 22:41:15	What I've eleceted to do in my project is pretty much the same as Havard's second suggestion... A feat will be offered to dwarves as a "Regional" feat (making it's selection more probable) giving characters who select it (probably dwarves, halflings and gnomes) the (racially/historically popular) option of extensive magic resistance in the form of a +2 save bonus to all magic and magic-like effects, with the penalty of forfeiting any and all arcane spellcasting abilities (they can still select arcane classes, just can't cast spells) or being equally vulnerable to arcane magic and having the (unpopular) option of being an arcane caster (as well as a cultural outcast). A similar feat will be available for divine magic, but not related to any specific region. Roger
#4 Hugin Jul 17, 2006 23:24:01	I like Havard's suggestions but I find myself with a combination of two mentalities that the gazetteers contain: - One; just because you haven't heard about 'them' before does not mean they don't exist. 'Them' can be several things from an organization, an Immortal, a dwarven cleric, or a Hakomon. - Two; information in a gazetteer should be considered (and I think it is), given in a skewed or slanted view, from the the point of view of those people described within that gaz. Examples would include the Shadowelves (probably the most obvious example) as given in the Alfhiem gaz, half-elf mechanics, and some of the history contradictions. So, my approach is to say a Dwarven Wizard is unheard of, but not an absolute impossibility. The player should know that the consequences of such a character in a game would be great! Often on the negative side.
#5 Traianus_Decius_Aureus Jul 18, 2006 8:16:26	We keep this as a roleplay/ flavor issue, not a rules issue. It is not a physical or mental reason (read rules) that keeps dwarves from the arcane classes, but a cultural one. These cultural beliefs are so dominant that the negative consequences make a character flaunting them a pariah, cast out from their clan and possibly in danger from more conservative elements of society. Sometimes a rule is too restrictive- I say let the character go against the grain (and this would be an extreme case), but make him pay the price for his choice.
#6 zombiegleemax Jul 18, 2006 10:29:52	We keep this as a roleplay/ flavor issue, not a rules issue. It is not a physical or mental reason (read rules) that keeps dwarves from the arcane classes, but a cultural one. These cultural beliefs are so dominant that the negative consequences make a character flaunting them a pariah, cast out from their clan and possibly in danger from more conservative elements of society. Sometimes a rule is too restrictive- I say let the character go against the grain (and this would be an extreme case), but make him pay the price for his choice. That's what I would do, as I don't like blanket restrictions on what PCs can do. A dwarf who was known to be versed in arcane magic would be outcast from dwarf society. He would still be unwelcome elsewhere due to preconceptions "What do you mean, you don't wear armour and you don't want to be at the front of the combat? What kind of dwarf are you?" Also gives you the option to play a dwarf wizard in dwarf culture, but you have to keep it secret. Could be fun. In fact I think I may go and create one right now .....
#7 zombiegleemax Jul 18, 2006 11:27:08	Dwarven wizard...in all the 3e play I have seen or heard about, its been done...zero times. I see material on it and people talk about it, but even were the rules allow it, its not popular. That being said the Gaz themself make referance to dwarfs using arcane magic. But not specifialy a class. Of course those dwarfs are outcast, evil, insane, and are used a curse words. Thier name translates as "rotten dwarfs" I recall. Its the Northen Reaches Gaz, I belive they use rituals with souls to enchant items. Personally I like Harvard's idea of a bonus to magic saves but a built in spell failure chance. It makes it harder or a dwarf arcane caster but not imposable. If you go with 3e i'd also suggest the unearth arcana. Why should none fighter dwarfs not wear heavy armor? Prehaps a modifacation of all dwarven classes to reflect the concept that all dwarfs are warriors. Battle-rangers, battle-rouges, battle-ect.
#8 johnbiles Jul 18, 2006 17:55:49	Dwarven wizard...in all the 3e play I have seen or heard about, its been done...zero times. I see material on it and people talk about it, but even were the rules allow it, its not popular. That being said the Gaz themself make referance to dwarfs using arcane magic. But not specifialy a class. Of course those dwarfs are outcast, evil, insane, and are used a curse words. Thier name translates as "rotten dwarfs" I recall. Its the Northen Reaches Gaz, I belive they use rituals with souls to enchant items. Personally I like Harvard's idea of a bonus to magic saves but a built in spell failure chance. It makes it harder or a dwarf arcane caster but not imposable. If you go with 3e i'd also suggest the unearth arcana. Why should none fighter dwarfs not wear heavy armor? Prehaps a modifacation of all dwarven classes to reflect the concept that all dwarfs are warriors. Battle-rangers, battle-rouges, battle-ect. The Modrigzwerg, yeah. The Dwarves who live in Alphatia are another group where you could logically have Dwarven Wizards and Sorcerors.
#9 happylarry Jul 19, 2006 14:08:42	Hmmm interesting. When i started reading this thread, and the related discussions elsewhere - i was thinking - anathema to dwarven wizards - but now I'm thinking - hmmm roleplaying opportunities - rotten dwarfs, secret societies - could be fun. Maybe i should buy 3.5e after all...
#10 zombiegleemax Jul 20, 2006 16:37:50	Here's a compilation of the statements about dwarves from the "race" section of each class from the PHB: Barbarian "Dwarf barbarians are rare, usually hailing from dwarven kingdoms that have fallen into barbarism as a result of recurrent war with goblinoids, orcs, and giants." p24 Bard "There are no bardic tradtions among dwarves and halfings though occasionally individuals of these races find teachers to train them in the ways of the bard." p27 Cleric "All the common races are represented in this class, since the need for religion and divine magic is universal. (...) Crusading, adventuring clerics often come from the human and dwarf races." p30 Druid "Dwarves, halfings, and half-orcs are rarely druids." p34 Fighter "Dwarf fighters are commonly former members of the well-trained strike teams that protect the underground dwarven kingdoms. They are typically members of warrior families that can trace their lineages back for millenia, and they may have rivalries or alliances with other dwarf fighters of a different lineage." p38 Monk "The monk tradition is alien to dwarf and gnome culture, and halflings typically have too mobile a lifestyle to commit themselves to a monastery, so dwarves, gnomes, and halflings very rarely become monks." p40 Paladin "Dwarves are sometimes paladins, but becoming a paladin may be hard on a dwarf because it means putting the duties of the paladin's life before duties to family, clan, and king." p43 Ranger "Dwarf rangers are rare, but they can be quite effective. Instead of living in the surface wilderness, they are at home in the endless caverns beneath the earth. Here they hunt down and destroy the enemies of dwarvenkind with the relentless precision for which dwarves are known. Dwarf rangers are often known as cavers." p47 Rogue "Dwarf and gnome rogues, while less common, are renowned as experts with locks and traps." p49 Sorcerer "Most sorcerers are humans or half-elves, but the innate talent for sorcery is unpredictable, and it can show up in any of the common races." p53 Wizard "Dwarf and halfling wizards are rare because their societies don't encourage the study of magic." p56
#11 the_stalker Jul 20, 2006 16:54:09	The Dwarves who live in Alphatia are another group where you could logically have Dwarven Wizards and Sorcerors. Erm, no. The dwarves of Denwarf-Hurgon are just dwarves from Rockhome who were invited to Alphatia and given their own lands to develop some 50 years before the gazetteer-era, because the Alphatians felt it was easier to give the dwarves their own lands and so have the dwarves be craftsmen in Alphatia than it was for the Alphatians to learn comparable crafts themselves. And 50 years is a short time for a dwarf, so there is no basis for that. Learning magic is not even why those dwarves went there, nor were they outcasts from Rockhome anymore than the dwarves of Highforge in Karameikos or Buhrohur in Thyatis.
#12 rhialto Jul 21, 2006 5:54:52	It is also established that the dwarfs of Denwarf-Hurgon in Alphatia are ruled by a dwarfen cleric. Priestly magic use satisfies the Alphatian nobility laws quite well. Even if the dwarfs had been established for generations there, there wouldn't be any special social pressure on them to learn magery, although I could see an enlarged priestly class (which in itself would have the effect of reinforcing cultural resistance to learning magery).
#13 the_stalker Jul 21, 2006 7:22:24	It is also established that the dwarfs of Denwarf-Hurgon in Alphatia are ruled by a dwarfen cleric. Buthra Bofadar is a dwarf-cleric? Not that I'm saying you're wrong, but if that's true, then I'd like to know where we know that from. She wasn't described in DotE AFAIK, and I think she was described only in PWA1, where it says, "Buthra, a military dwarf, is a no-nonsense, no-compromise dwarf" (PWA1, p.133). That sounds more like a standard dwarf to me, and her stats list her class/level only as "D12". Priestly magic use satisfies the Alphatian nobility laws quite well. No, there is no reason for that. Stoutfellow does not follow the mainland Alphatia's aristocrat/commoner distinction, and DotE even goes to great lengths to tell us that the regulations and government in Stoutfellow is very close to those in Rockhome. You could say that's very similar to neighbouring Stonewall, but I find it interesting that the description of that nation actually says that there is still an official distinction between aristocrats and commoners there, only they are not observed by the authorities. And obviously the ruler is still a spellcaster in Stonewall. It doesn't sound to me like that is the case in Stoutfellow, who have their own, separate rules for those in the rest of the Alphatian mainland. Even if the dwarfs had been established for generations there, there wouldn't be any special social pressure on them to learn magery, although I could see an enlarged priestly class (which in itself would have the effect of reinforcing cultural resistance to learning magery). Right. The dwarves (and halflings and gnomes) were INVITED to settle there and even given autonomy and separate laws. The Alphatians were not trying to create a nation of dwarven wizards. They just wanted them there for their skills at crafts.
#14 weasel_fierce Jul 22, 2006 11:59:40	I dont play 3.x, but if running a Mystara game, I'd have no qualms about refusing access to wizardry, for dwarves and halflings. Its implicit in the setting. I forget if they get a bonus to saves vs spells, but if they dont,throw it in there.
#15 vgeisz_dup Jul 22, 2006 15:20:58	The earlier post mentioning the mordigswerg is a little off IMO. Having studied it for our conversion they are more like Eberron's Artificers. they can enhance items but cant cast spells per say. they actually use something more akin to divine magic because they use the souls of creatures to actually enchant items. Vern
#16 havard Jul 23, 2006 16:45:43	The earlier post mentioning the mordigswerg is a little off IMO. Having studied it for our conversion they are more like Eberron's Artificers. they can enhance items but cant cast spells per say. they actually use something more akin to divine magic because they use the souls of creatures to actually enchant items. Vern I think eberron artificers would work for both of the dwarven races. I dont see why the usage of souls neccesarily would have to involve divine magic though. Binding souls would just as easily fall under the arcane realm. But really, so little official information is given on the Moulder Dwarves that they could go either way. Havard