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Dwarven Focus

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zenrak
Jul 18, 2006 2:53:56 Where can I read more about the dwarven focus?

I am curious if a psion can charm a dwarf into a focus. A halfling psion NPC that I have planned has charmed a dwarf and convinced him to protect the halfling until he relieves him of his service.
#2
dirk00001
Jul 18, 2006 10:19:33 The dwarven focus is something they do at a "soul" level, so I don't think you could simply charm one into accepting a particular focus. You could, however, charm them (or otherwise manipulate them) in such a way that they made they made their own decision to choose some unusual thing as their focus. So, assuming that your halfling psion had decent diplomacy/bluff/charisma plus psionic charm he could probably pull it off, although in the end it wouldn't be the halfling that caused the focus but the dwarf deciding that it was "a good idea."

As far as more info on it concerned, there's a tiny bit in Terrors of the Dead Lands or the 2e DS monster manual that has the dwarven banshees listed, and the Prism Pentad books go into it some. I like to think of the dwarven focus as a maleable version of the "dwarves are all a bunch of gold-obsessed miners" stereotype - rather than going to ridiculous lengths to get ahold of that oh-so-enticing pile of gold laying on the opposite side of that obviously-heavily-trapped room, they might instead be obsessed with excavating some ruins or hunting down a particular individual who wronged them or something similar. Athasian dwarves have, in a sense, developed the "strong-headedness" of your typical fantasy dwarf to its extreme, and that's what the focus is. It's not that they can't do other things, or even question what it is they're focused on - it's just that, at the core of their being, they *must* be focused on some task.
#3
zenrak
Jul 18, 2006 12:40:49
It's not that they can't do other things, or even question what it is they're focused on - it's just that, at the core of their being, they *must* be focused on some task.

I'm not sure they should always be focused on something for if that were true, I think there would be alot more dwarven banshees. I am wondering what percentage of athasian dwarves actually die just after thier focus is completed.
#4
dirk00001
Jul 18, 2006 14:30:16 Terrors of the Deadlands lists it as applying to "major focuses" only, and beyond that I don't think it's an "all or nothing" proposition anyway. A lot of it has to do with the circumstances in which the dwarf died, such as "do they feel guilty?" about their death and how it relates to the focus.

For instance, a dwarf makes it his life's work, his focus, to excavate ancient ruins:
1) His entire clan has the same focus, and the dwarf dies of old age, an injury, or something similar, but the clan continues their excavations without any hinderances; The dwarf does not become a banshee, as he can "rest easy" knowing that his friends and family will one day finish excavating the site.
2) Same as #1, but he dies in a mineshaft collapse that he caused due to negligence. He becomes a banshee, as he not only died but he hurt the project as a whole.
3) The dwarf is working alone. If he dies before the site is excavated he becomes a banshee, and will haunt the ruins until someone else comes along and finishes excavating them.
4) The dwarf determines that he can't possibly finish excavate all the ruins as, say, he knocks through a wall and finds that the rest of the ruins have already been excavated by some other creatures that were digging from the other side of the mountain or what-not. His focus is completed, but being a dwarf he's probably mad that someone else was diggin' on his turf and so his next focus may very well be "kill the intruders!"
#5
balican_gigolo
Jul 18, 2006 17:40:29 I don't agree with number 3. that would still mean a lot of banshees around. I always thought dwarves became banshees if they died while not actively pursuing their focus, or doing something that was impending their goal towards finishing their focus. Just to die while trying to finish a focus... well lots of things die on Athas.
#6
Pennarin
Jul 18, 2006 18:08:18 In the novel Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, Hamanu mentions to his personal attendant, a dwarven templar, that he can remove any lingering focus. The process' method is not discussed.

I'd say its possible to abolish a focus using magic or psionics, but the process might require limited wish or some such minor reality-altering effect.
#7
zenrak
Jul 19, 2006 1:44:48
3) The dwarf is working alone. If he dies before the site is excavated he becomes a banshee, and will haunt the ruins until someone else comes along and finishes excavating them.

This is a good time for me to bring up the "Seventh son of the seventh son" fable. I'm not sure just anyone can finsih the work the dwarf left behind.

In the Monstrous Compendium that features the Dwarven Banshee in the Ecology section, it mentions this. Anyone know more about this?
#8
dirk00001
Jul 19, 2006 10:14:43
I don't agree with number 3. that would still mean a lot of banshees around. I always thought dwarves became banshees if they died while not actively pursuing their focus, or doing something that was impending their goal towards finishing their focus. Just to die while trying to finish a focus... well lots of things die on Athas.

The reason I included this is that the idea of excavating an entire set of ruins by oneself is, by definition, going to be a major focus; dwarves live a long time, true, but you're talking a major undertaking here. Given that the idea of the dwarven Banshee seems to be based around an emotional attachment of sorts, just like most every other non-created undead, I think this would apply. The idea here is that the dwarf is choosing to focus on something that, from the get-go, he realizes he might not be able to accomplish...but being a dwarf, he's going to darn well try anyway.
Remember that there are very few "loner" dwarves - even on Athas they are very clan-oriented, so it'd take an unusual dwarf to focus on something like this to begin with. IIRC in the PP it's mentioned that Kled was founded by a single dwarf, but that soon others joined him to carry on the work. By my reasoning, if he'd died before anyone else had joined him in his efforts he would probably have come back as a banshee, as the last thoughts running through his dwarven brain would have likely been "oh great, I've found the fabled dwarven city of Kemelok and now, thanks to my death, it's going to be lost again." That's banshee material right there. With a single other dwarf around, however, he can go to the grave a lot easier, since there's ample reason to believe that the lost city will remain "un-lost".
Make sense?

As for your other ideas, I do agree with you there; dying while doing something other than your (major) focus is good grounds for banshee-dom, and as I stated in my examples dying in a way that hinders the completion of your focus definitely counts as well.

Finally, for all of these remember that it is only with major foci that a dwarf might become a banshee. We're talkin' goals and projects that take months at the least, and more likely years or decades to finish. An even more likely reason that a dwarf becomes a banshee is that they set a goal that they knew they probably wouldn't complete from the get-go, but it was important enough to risk eternal undeath for - Rkard is a good example, he knew that there was little hope in defending Kemelok from Borys, but he chose to do so anyway as he was the king and he felt that it was something he had to do, period. A common pit slave probably isn't setting a focus of "live a full life and die of natural causes" - they're focusing on "making it through another day" and if they die, well, that's not nearly a major enough focus to make them undead.
On a related note, becoming a banshee is about the last thing any dwarf wants to do - its an eternity of suffering, after all. Only the most determined (or crazy) dwarves are going to set themselves on completing a focus that is likely to result in them becoming a banshee. So, to tie that into my example of the sole-excavator example, a smart dwarf would first set his focus on something little less overwhelming, such as "form a clan of dwarves to help excavate these ruins." If he dies while doing that, well, true he failed at his focus, but it wasn't that major of a task so no biggie. If he succeeds, then he can re-focus on "excavate the ruins" and, if he dies then, as long as his death doesn't hinder the project, odds are he won't haunt the site.

Zenrak - I don't know what that reference relates to. Can you elaborate some? (I forgot to look it up in my 2e books last night and now I'm back at work)
#9
zenrak
Jul 19, 2006 13:03:00
Zenrak - I don't know what that reference relates to. Can you elaborate some? (I forgot to look it up in my 2e books last night and now I'm back at work)

Fables say that the seventh son of a seventh son may lay a dwarven banshee to rest by finishing a focus for it.

This line can be found in the Second Edition book entitled Monstrous Conpendium Dark Sun. Dwarven banshee entry, under Ecology.
#10
dirk00001
Jul 19, 2006 14:25:07 Ah, well there you go - it's a fable. :P And rightly so, since in most cases it's pretty tough to finish a dwarf's focus when their banshee is trying to kill you the whole time.
#11
Pennarin
Jul 19, 2006 19:56:49 Finishing a dwarf's focus does not necessarily require said undead dwarf to be present; if you rid the local dwarven village of its lifelong raids by a brutal nearby tribe, then the dwarven focus will be fulfilled and the banshee - where ever he's at - will crumble to dust if his focus was to not rest until he rid the village of that foe.

The banshees protecting the Lens, IIRC, had for a focus to destroy Borys and bring about the return of the old dwarven kingdom, or something like that. I think they were destroyed as banshees without their focus being fulfilled.
#12
dirk00001
Jul 20, 2006 15:01:14 True, depends on whether or not the focus was ideal-based or location-based, I guess.

As for the lens-banshees, their deaths were a special case and not a "normal" way for a banshee to be destroyed. I can't remember the specifics, but IIRC it was due to some special ability/power that the Death Lords had, and if it wasn't for that they would have probably just popped back up a few days later like any other banshee.
#13
Pennarin
Jul 20, 2006 22:24:04 You'll notice I do not mention the special way the banshees died, only that they hadn't fulflilled their focus.

I mentionned those banshees only because they are the only examples of banshees that are known to everyone in the community.
#14
dirk00001
Jul 21, 2006 9:55:31
You'll notice I do not mention the special way the banshees died, only that they hadn't fulflilled their focus.

Er, well...yeah. I figured you were referencing it as an example of how the "finish the focus" idea isn't necessary a valid one, which is why I was mentioning that it was "special circumstances." *shrug* No biggie.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zenrak Jul 18, 2006 2:53:56	Where can I read more about the dwarven focus? I am curious if a psion can charm a dwarf into a focus. A halfling psion NPC that I have planned has charmed a dwarf and convinced him to protect the halfling until he relieves him of his service.
#2 dirk00001 Jul 18, 2006 10:19:33	The dwarven focus is something they do at a "soul" level, so I don't think you could simply charm one into accepting a particular focus. You could, however, charm them (or otherwise manipulate them) in such a way that they made they made their own decision to choose some unusual thing as their focus. So, assuming that your halfling psion had decent diplomacy/bluff/charisma plus psionic charm he could probably pull it off, although in the end it wouldn't be the halfling that caused the focus but the dwarf deciding that it was "a good idea." As far as more info on it concerned, there's a tiny bit in Terrors of the Dead Lands or the 2e DS monster manual that has the dwarven banshees listed, and the Prism Pentad books go into it some. I like to think of the dwarven focus as a maleable version of the "dwarves are all a bunch of gold-obsessed miners" stereotype - rather than going to ridiculous lengths to get ahold of that oh-so-enticing pile of gold laying on the opposite side of that obviously-heavily-trapped room, they might instead be obsessed with excavating some ruins or hunting down a particular individual who wronged them or something similar. Athasian dwarves have, in a sense, developed the "strong-headedness" of your typical fantasy dwarf to its extreme, and that's what the focus is. It's not that they can't do other things, or even question what it is they're focused on - it's just that, at the core of their being, they must be focused on some task.
#3 zenrak Jul 18, 2006 12:40:49	It's not that they can't do other things, or even question what it is they're focused on - it's just that, at the core of their being, they must be focused on some task. I'm not sure they should always be focused on something for if that were true, I think there would be alot more dwarven banshees. I am wondering what percentage of athasian dwarves actually die just after thier focus is completed.
#4 dirk00001 Jul 18, 2006 14:30:16	Terrors of the Deadlands lists it as applying to "major focuses" only, and beyond that I don't think it's an "all or nothing" proposition anyway. A lot of it has to do with the circumstances in which the dwarf died, such as "do they feel guilty?" about their death and how it relates to the focus. For instance, a dwarf makes it his life's work, his focus, to excavate ancient ruins: 1) His entire clan has the same focus, and the dwarf dies of old age, an injury, or something similar, but the clan continues their excavations without any hinderances; The dwarf does not become a banshee, as he can "rest easy" knowing that his friends and family will one day finish excavating the site. 2) Same as #1, but he dies in a mineshaft collapse that he caused due to negligence. He becomes a banshee, as he not only died but he hurt the project as a whole. 3) The dwarf is working alone. If he dies before the site is excavated he becomes a banshee, and will haunt the ruins until someone else comes along and finishes excavating them. 4) The dwarf determines that he can't possibly finish excavate all the ruins as, say, he knocks through a wall and finds that the rest of the ruins have already been excavated by some other creatures that were digging from the other side of the mountain or what-not. His focus is completed, but being a dwarf he's probably mad that someone else was diggin' on his turf and so his next focus may very well be "kill the intruders!"
#5 balican_gigolo Jul 18, 2006 17:40:29	I don't agree with number 3. that would still mean a lot of banshees around. I always thought dwarves became banshees if they died while not actively pursuing their focus, or doing something that was impending their goal towards finishing their focus. Just to die while trying to finish a focus... well lots of things die on Athas.
#6 Pennarin Jul 18, 2006 18:08:18	In the novel Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, Hamanu mentions to his personal attendant, a dwarven templar, that he can remove any lingering focus. The process' method is not discussed. I'd say its possible to abolish a focus using magic or psionics, but the process might require limited wish or some such minor reality-altering effect.
#7 zenrak Jul 19, 2006 1:44:48	3) The dwarf is working alone. If he dies before the site is excavated he becomes a banshee, and will haunt the ruins until someone else comes along and finishes excavating them. This is a good time for me to bring up the "Seventh son of the seventh son" fable. I'm not sure just anyone can finsih the work the dwarf left behind. In the Monstrous Compendium that features the Dwarven Banshee in the Ecology section, it mentions this. Anyone know more about this?
#8 dirk00001 Jul 19, 2006 10:14:43	I don't agree with number 3. that would still mean a lot of banshees around. I always thought dwarves became banshees if they died while not actively pursuing their focus, or doing something that was impending their goal towards finishing their focus. Just to die while trying to finish a focus... well lots of things die on Athas. The reason I included this is that the idea of excavating an entire set of ruins by oneself is, by definition, going to be a major focus; dwarves live a long time, true, but you're talking a major undertaking here. Given that the idea of the dwarven Banshee seems to be based around an emotional attachment of sorts, just like most every other non-created undead, I think this would apply. The idea here is that the dwarf is choosing to focus on something that, from the get-go, he realizes he might not be able to accomplish...but being a dwarf, he's going to darn well try anyway. Remember that there are very few "loner" dwarves - even on Athas they are very clan-oriented, so it'd take an unusual dwarf to focus on something like this to begin with. IIRC in the PP it's mentioned that Kled was founded by a single dwarf, but that soon others joined him to carry on the work. By my reasoning, if he'd died before anyone else had joined him in his efforts he would probably have come back as a banshee, as the last thoughts running through his dwarven brain would have likely been "oh great, I've found the fabled dwarven city of Kemelok and now, thanks to my death, it's going to be lost again." That's banshee material right there. With a single other dwarf around, however, he can go to the grave a lot easier, since there's ample reason to believe that the lost city will remain "un-lost". Make sense? As for your other ideas, I do agree with you there; dying while doing something other than your (major) focus is good grounds for banshee-dom, and as I stated in my examples dying in a way that hinders the completion of your focus definitely counts as well. Finally, for all of these remember that it is only with major foci that a dwarf might become a banshee. We're talkin' goals and projects that take months at the least, and more likely years or decades to finish. An even more likely reason that a dwarf becomes a banshee is that they set a goal that they knew they probably wouldn't complete from the get-go, but it was important enough to risk eternal undeath for - Rkard is a good example, he knew that there was little hope in defending Kemelok from Borys, but he chose to do so anyway as he was the king and he felt that it was something he had to do, period. A common pit slave probably isn't setting a focus of "live a full life and die of natural causes" - they're focusing on "making it through another day" and if they die, well, that's not nearly a major enough focus to make them undead. On a related note, becoming a banshee is about the last thing any dwarf wants to do - its an eternity of suffering, after all. Only the most determined (or crazy) dwarves are going to set themselves on completing a focus that is likely to result in them becoming a banshee. So, to tie that into my example of the sole-excavator example, a smart dwarf would first set his focus on something little less overwhelming, such as "form a clan of dwarves to help excavate these ruins." If he dies while doing that, well, true he failed at his focus, but it wasn't that major of a task so no biggie. If he succeeds, then he can re-focus on "excavate the ruins" and, if he dies then, as long as his death doesn't hinder the project, odds are he won't haunt the site. Zenrak - I don't know what that reference relates to. Can you elaborate some? (I forgot to look it up in my 2e books last night and now I'm back at work)
#9 zenrak Jul 19, 2006 13:03:00	Zenrak - I don't know what that reference relates to. Can you elaborate some? (I forgot to look it up in my 2e books last night and now I'm back at work) Fables say that the seventh son of a seventh son may lay a dwarven banshee to rest by finishing a focus for it. This line can be found in the Second Edition book entitled Monstrous Conpendium Dark Sun. Dwarven banshee entry, under Ecology.
#10 dirk00001 Jul 19, 2006 14:25:07	Ah, well there you go - it's a fable. :P And rightly so, since in most cases it's pretty tough to finish a dwarf's focus when their banshee is trying to kill you the whole time.
#11 Pennarin Jul 19, 2006 19:56:49	Finishing a dwarf's focus does not necessarily require said undead dwarf to be present; if you rid the local dwarven village of its lifelong raids by a brutal nearby tribe, then the dwarven focus will be fulfilled and the banshee - where ever he's at - will crumble to dust if his focus was to not rest until he rid the village of that foe. The banshees protecting the Lens, IIRC, had for a focus to destroy Borys and bring about the return of the old dwarven kingdom, or something like that. I think they were destroyed as banshees without their focus being fulfilled.
#12 dirk00001 Jul 20, 2006 15:01:14	True, depends on whether or not the focus was ideal-based or location-based, I guess. As for the lens-banshees, their deaths were a special case and not a "normal" way for a banshee to be destroyed. I can't remember the specifics, but IIRC it was due to some special ability/power that the Death Lords had, and if it wasn't for that they would have probably just popped back up a few days later like any other banshee.
#13 Pennarin Jul 20, 2006 22:24:04	You'll notice I do not mention the special way the banshees died, only that they hadn't fulflilled their focus. I mentionned those banshees only because they are the only examples of banshees that are known to everyone in the community.
#14 dirk00001 Jul 21, 2006 9:55:31	You'll notice I do not mention the special way the banshees died, only that they hadn't fulflilled their focus. Er, well...yeah. I figured you were referencing it as an example of how the "finish the focus" idea isn't necessary a valid one, which is why I was mentioning that it was "special circumstances." shrug No biggie.