Did Sacha really die in the Hollow by Rikus' hand?
As for their ability to grant spells, those who subscribe to Kalak not being a true SK would say that S&W were granting spells to Kalak's templars. It all depend where you stand on Kalak's "Championess" I guess.
Or, given how intelligent undead work in Dark Sun, they may very well have been capable of spellcasting and even psionics, but due to some hinderance/disadvantage could not do so against anyone who "owned" them, or maybe not without the express request of said "owner."
*shrug*
Speaking of hands, is it described anywhere if S&W's bodies were destroyed? It would be an interesting adventure hook to have either Sacha or Wyan (if they some how survived the events of the Pentad) secretly manipulate the PC's into recovering their headless bodies in order to become whole (thinkTim Burton's Sleepy Hollow).
Kinda like Puck in the Gargoyles animation from Disney I think it was. He was only allowed to use his powers in the training and protection of his human employer's son once it was discovered the son was a child of Avalon.
Off Topic:
I loved that show.
Since those two trained Tithian in psionic powers I'd say their psionic skills were never gone.
The knowledge may have been there to train him, bu the ability to use it themselves is another matter.
The knowledge may have been there to train him, but necessarily the ability to use it themselves is another matter.
Hmm.. Well, they did levitate, which I don;t think is something a standard template would give, and they were really powerful in those 2E mind-to-mind battle thingies (I think).
Hmm.. Well, they did levitate, which I don;t think is something a standard template would give, and they were really powerful in those 2E mind-to-mind battle thingies (I think).
Hmmm.....now that you mention it, didn't they use some powers in the Prism Pentad somewhere? Like a mental attack or something to distract one of the main characters?
The heads were not undead, they were still alive. This is from Rise and Fall, and from a lack of mention that they are undead in Prism Pentad.
Lack of body is presumed to mean loss of spellcasting abilities. Psionics are intact.
The heads were insane, which accounts for their weird behavior. In Prism Pentad the cause of the insanity is not explained, while in Rise and Fall its made clear that Kalak used powerful confusion and memory reconstruction techniques to make the heads comply to serving him.
In the universe of Rise and Fall, the heads can still send templar spells on account they are still connected to the Lens. Even undead Dregoth still is connected. In the Prism Pentad universe the heads never had any templar capabilities to begin with since they were not included in what Borys did to the Champions after the revolt, on account they were deemed treatorous during the revolt and not included in Borys' spell.
In the universe of Rise and Fall, the heads can still send templar spells on account they are still connected to the Lens. Even undead Dregoth still is connected. In the Prism Pentad universe the heads never had any templar capabilities to begin with since they were not included in what Borys did to the Champions after the revolt, on account they were deemed treatorous during the revolt and not included in Borys' spell.
All of the other stuff you said sounds good, and is definitely reasonable enough to explain it regardless of which "history" you want to go by (RaF or PP).
As for the above-quoted stuff, unless you want to consider the heads to be *extremely* insane, to the point of absurdity, or you want to consider the PP version of things to be false (which is nonsensical given that the revised setting is based on them), then the idea of the heads being able to grant templar spells doesn't work, period - even if they had somehow been given that ability during the revolt, as unlikely as that'd be, it doesn't at all explain why they wouldn't have granted Tithian's templars spells since Tithian was working towards freeing Rajaat (...and I don't see how *not* granting his templars spells would have helped, which is the choice they would have made).
Not really an important part of this discussion, especially since it falls under the umbrella of the "RaFoaDK vs PP debate" but still...couldn't resist mentioning it.
-snip- then the idea of the heads being able to grant templar spells doesn't work, period - even if they had somehow been given that ability during the revolt, as unlikely as that'd be, it doesn't at all explain why they wouldn't have granted Tithian's templars spells since Tithian was working towards freeing Rajaat (...and I don't see how *not* granting his templars spells would have helped, which is the choice they would have made).
I'm not quite following here. I made clearcut distinctions between the two schools of though - Denning and Abbey - and how they handle the two heads.
In Abbey's case, the heads don't grant templar spells through Tithian because they can't. It was Kalak who syphoned away the heads' templar spell granting capabilities...probably using a powerful epic spell, since this is D&D. Tithian was only an adept at psionics and arcane magic, not the epic master necessary to manipulate the heads' Lens connection to his advantage.
Btw, Kalak was not working towards freeing Rajaat, yet he was able to access the heads' templar spell granting capabilities...another indicator the heads were overwhelmed by Kalak's mindbending and sorcery and could do nothing but believe they were his servants and that he was the one with the Lens connection.
This is all in the Abbey school of thought, no basis for this in Denning's work.
I'm not quite following here. I made clearcut distinctions between the two schools of though - Denning and Abbey - and how they handle the two heads.
I just mentioned this because you started off your post with "here's my opinion..." which should indicate a specific stance (as opposed to two possibilities) and, as you just said (and I agree with), there's a clear-cut distinction between Abby and Denning's take on things...and they're pretty much mutually exclusive. I posted because your last paragraph, unlike the others, pretty much allows for only one of the two "versions" to be correct, but yet it was thrown in after several other statements that compared the two authors' views in a way that didn't cause any contradicitions.
That was all - I just felt the last paragraph didn't work given the context of the rest of your post and decided to try and argue against it as being a valid opinion; I just didn't realize that it wasn't under the same "in my opinion" umbrella as the other paragraphs.
No biggie.
I think I started the post with the opinion statement while the rest of the post was typed minutes later, so it no longer matched what I later wrote. Sorry for not having re-read and edited myself afterwards.
As for the reason I gave why the heads did not bestow templar spell granting capabilities to Tithian in the regular DS universe (the one based on Denning's work, i.e. athas.org), it is - AFAIK - canon.
Btw, Kalak was not working towards freeing Rajaat, yet he was able to access the heads' templar spell granting capabilities...another indicator the heads were overwhelmed by Kalak's mindbending and sorcery and could do nothing but believe they were his servants and that he was the one with the Lens connection.
This is all in the Abbey school of thought, no basis for this in Denning's work.
If I unde3rstand correctly, in the PP version of things, (Which I favor, as do the RPG materials) the Templar spells are NOT granted by the Dark Lens, they are granted by the Living Vortexes. Dregoth Ascending supports this, as does all official 2E material. AND I think Kalak was listed as a champion in the revised setting, as well, so he granted his own spells.
Lacking a well annotated index to the PP (which the most powerful of us archnerds probably should consider doing one of these days, if for nothing other than clarity's sake), a step by step look at S&W throughout the pentad seems the most logical method of coming to a better defined image of everyone's favorite two floating heads.
Our first image of S&W is of course Tithian and company's stumbling upon "Mighty" Kalak's inner sanctum in the VP (157), which happens to be one of the most informative sections in the entire pentad concerning the two:
On the arms of the throne sat a pair of human heads with topknots of long, coarse hair, their faces turned toward a dimunitive figure perched at the edge fo the seat...
Such a description is ominous enough, but the character of the two is better illustrated a few lines down when one of Tithian's templars fumbles before the king, causing Tithian to hatefully castigate the man, after which Kalak muses, almost in an intimate way (157):
"Look, Wyan. Intruders."
Interestingly however, Kalak has to physically turn Wyan to look at the "three templars." Wyan responds aloud, seeming to enjoy the fear surely wafting from Tithian and company, opining that they are "filthy murderers come to assassinate their king..." (157). Sacha's bloated head responds with an alternative theory that the three are there for theft (surely not a truly felt accusation, but rather a tool to terrorize the three).
Interestingly however, Sacha's response includes the words "our treasure," seeming to infer that the treasure belongs not only to Kalak, but also to himself and Wyan. Kalak however becomes violent upon this suggestion, striking Sacha from off the throne, pronouncing that the treasure is his alone. Sacha seems defenseless in this matter, rolling to Tithian's feet, and argumentively shooting back to Kalak the words "our treasure," to which Kalak offers no further punishment. Given Kalak's extraordinarily violent conduct regarding all other characters in the VP, we must wonder at the liberality of Kalak in this matter, for he would surely destroy any other being that dared such insolence. We shall return to this later however.
In the rather disturbing following scene when Kalak tortures his templars before killing them, he carries Wyan with him by the topknot. We must ask ourselves, if Wyan can levitate, why does Kalak do this? We shall return to this as well however.
In the remainder of the scene we are given examples that the two are extraordinarily violent like Kalak himself, the "feed the dagger" section (~160) being a superb example of this.
In this section it is also revealed that Sacha is the patriarch of the Mericles line and an ancestor of Tithian. Fascinated at this, Kalak hands Tithian the bloated head, which he was "surprised to discover...seemed as warm as any living body" (161).
Kalak describes Sacha (161):
"I present Sacha the Beastly, progenitor of the noble Mericles line," the king said to Tithian. "Sacha and Wyan were the two chieftains who accompanied me when I conquered Tyr."
"You mean the chieftains who conquered it for you," Sacha spat.
Kalak ignored the comment...
This of course is a fascinating factoid offered to us, one which Lynn Abbey surely latched onto. The meaning of it however will be discussed below.
On page 162 we witness S&W feeding, which they surely enjoy, and noticeably Kalak seems concerned enough with the two to order Tithian to feed Sacha. Again, why is Kalak so considerate of S&W?
This chapter however, "Kalak's Treasure," is the only chapter in the VP that involves the two heads. They are noticeably absent from the the remainder of the book, and are certainly uninvolved when Kalak is killed by the heroes. This however is almost required for the story arc, for the two heads were the "heads" (no pun intended?) of the Counter-Rebellion against Rajaat, and therefore would almost certainly work for the downfall of Kalak as one of the "traitors." More on this will be discussed below as well.
In the subsequent book, S&W literally begin The Crimson Legion, for the two are psionically training Tithian, and speaking to him telepathically. In this the reader has his first evidence that the two heads have at least some skill with the Way. Then, after Tithian essentially fails his meditation, another power of some sort (perhaps just preternatural hearing?) is demonstrated by Wyan, when he seems rather precognitive in announcing that Tithian is soon to receive a messenger, Sacha following up Wyan's comment by even seeming able, utilizing whatever method, to know what news the messenger brings, mocking what he claims is Tithian's inability to continue his psionic studies when the messenger disturbs the monarch with information on the Urikite advance (CL, 3). The startling levitation scene (CL, 4) follows soon after. After this, the three evildoers plot, and we learn that Wyan knows of several Athasian bards who might kill the Heroes (CL, 5); surely an interesting tidbit.
The next section of CL involving S&W is soon after the defeat of the Urikite siege train and its argosy, the first battle of the book. The scene is of considerable importance for the purposes of our discussion, and thus I shall include a considerable portion of it (CL, 30-1):
Rikus looked upward and gasped. There, hanging far up in the blistering pink sky, was the cloudlike head of King Tithian. It looked to be made of misty green light, though its vaporous nature did not prevent the king's sharp features and hawkish nose from appearing anything less than distinct.
As Rikus' companions turned to see what he was looking at, Tyrian warriors began to cry out in delighted astonishment. As they watched, the head dropped like a meteor, until it hung less than a hundred feet overhead and blocked out so much of the sky that the day faded to the purple hues of dusk. The entire legion broke into a rousing cheer that the mul knew would not soon end. Like the rest of Tyr, most gladiators credited the crafty king with freeing them. They had knowledge of Agis's role forcing Tithian to issue his famous First Edict.
"Tithian? What's he doing here?" demanded Neeva, yelling to make herself heard above the tumult.
"How did he get here?" asked Rikus. "I thought he didn't know magic!"
"He doesn't," Sadira answered. She gestured at the apparition and uttered an incantation. A moment later, she added, "And that doesn't feel like normal sorcery to me."
"It isn't the Way, either," said Agis, rubbing his tmeples. "I can sense the presence of Tithian's thoguhts, but their power is boosted far beyond anything he's capable of."
Agis and Sadira studied each other with troubled expressions, while Rikus and Neeva nervously awaited their conclusion. Finally, Agis dared to speark the possibility that troubled the four. "it could be dragon magic."
"Dragon magic? What's that?" asked Jaseela...
"Dragon magic is sorcery and the Way used together," Sadira explained.
"Tithian can't do that--can he he?" gasped Neeva.
Can he indeed. This gigantic apparition of Tithian, which proceeds to address the Tyrian troops, seems to demonstrate no particular powers, other than being loud enough to echo like a "peal of thunder," and thus the proficient nerd might simply write the effect off as some form of advanced illusionary magic, were it not of course for Agis and Sadira's suspicions of the sorcery's nature. The topic however is dropped until further into the book, when it is brought up in a curious aside.
When negotiating with Wrog, the lask slave-tribe chieftain, Rikus uses the mystic gem he had taken from the templar commander Styan to communicate with Tithian back in Tyr, in the hopes of gaining iron to pay off the troublesome ex-slaves. Just before having Tithian speak to the chieftain, we read the following:
Tithian studied the mul with narrowed eyes. At last, he said, "Very well. Pass the gem to this Wrog."
"Use magic or the Way, whatever you did when you appeared in the sky at our first battle." Rikus was not anxious to trust a gem, much less a magical one, to the leader of the slave tribe.
A look of embarrassment crossed Tithian's face. "That's not possible," he said. The individuals who helped with that aren't available. If you want me to talk to Wrog, you'll have to give him the gem."
In the context of the PP, it would be hard to deny that Denning had someone other than S&W in mind when he writes of these, plural, individuals.
At this point however, some extended commentary is appropriate. It is my opinion that Denning did not intend to mystify his readership, forcing gamers to guess up nebulous alternatives to rather clearly stated aspects of the story... when Sadira and Agis guess it's dragon magic, Denning means dragon magic. This in mind, we are left with the conclusion that Sacha and Wyan aided or guided Tithian, or completely conducted themselves, "dragon magic" which produced the giant illusionary image. The question is however, what exactly does Denning mean by "dragon magic?"
This question, "what does Denning mean by dragon magic?" would require a considerable tangent in our discussion to address fully. For brevity's sake however, I shall adduce only a few of the more important points [I shall essentially ignore page 35 of Defilers and Preservers, as that publication is 2nd box, and, in my opinion, lower quality material, and regardless mimics the page 89 rules from Dragon Kings, save that it nerfs the damage dice to 1d4) . Dragon Kings, that inestimable addition to the quality Dark Sun publications, is itself, in confusion on the details of dragon magic. On page 44 of Dragon Kings for instance, we observe:
When a 10th-level defiling spell is cast, all living creatures (except the caster) within 30 yards of the caster are affected, regardless of terrain. In game terms, the creatures take 1d6 damage for every level of the caster above 20.
On page 89, we read of an alternative:
Defilers and 10-th level spells: These defiling spells leech life not only from plants but from living creatures. All living creatures within the spell radius of effect (which is the same as for 9th-level spells) take 1d6 points of damage per spell level (save for half damage). Some spells cast for a number of Hit Dice of living creatures as part of the material components for the spell. These creatures are destroyed with the casting of the spell, just like other spell components--no saving throw is allowed.
Especially considering the page 89 version, we might wonder if, by the authority of more canon materials (excluding Abbey), whether only 10th level spells drain animal life, or if lower level spells do so as well. From the PP, it is somewhat difficult to tell what Denning's own feelings on this subject were. Hamanu's obsidian pommeled staff is destroyed before he is able to lob magic upon Rikus and his invading army in CL, thus denying us examples. The other monarchs prove troubling as well, for the main exposition of their powers, in the confrontation between the surviving Five and Rikus and Tithian on the near side of the Gate of Doom, has, despite the casting of spells, Rikus protected by the Scourge and Tithian by the Lens, arguably negating the monarchs' leeching powers, and as for Hamanu's ability to breech the Scourge's protection, that particular sorcerer-king does not manage to get a spell off during the encounter. Indeed, more supportive of lower-level leeching magic, Rikus even cringes when three other monarchs cast protective spells, "uncertain as to whether the sword would protect him from their magic" (CS, 253), which again might allude to such magics' leeching powers, although of course Rikus could have just been fearing the spells being cast were going to be offensive in nature. In another scene in the VP, Kalak gets off a spell while the Heroes charge his metamorphosis chamber, but arguably the Heartwood Spear might protect the party from a dragon's leeching, or perhaps they were out of range of the fireball's draining radius, or Kalak simply drew his energy from the flow coming in from the stadium (VP, 332). Borys himself is difficult in establishing the definition of "dragon magic" as well. He does not, for our purposes, cast spells until CS, the "disappearing" in AE perhaps being psionic in nature (there are no gestures or words, although this in itself does not conclude anything) (AE, 339). In CS, the final destruction of the Tyrian army by the Dragon's defiling is not specified as "dragon magic," at least as far as I am aware, although it could be mused that the simulacrum Borys creates of himself, arguably via the energy taken from the Tyrian troops at Samarah, was indeed a 10th level spell... in any case however the text does not specify. Of course, if the magic were not 10th level (simulacrum being a 7th level spell in 2nd edition), this would be a major argument for lower level dragon defiling effects, although Bory's version may have been considerably stronger (8th-9th level in power?). And of course, beyond this, Bory's obsidian balls are crushed (I chuckle at the allusion...) by Sadira at the beginning of the Final Battle in CS, preventing him from draining life force from animals. An interesting elaboration is made by Denning before the fight before the Gate of Doom commences (CS, 227):
Sadira's task was to deprive the Dragon of his most dangerous magic. Like the sorcerer-kings, Borys could draw the life-force from men and animals. Also like the sorcerer-kings, he required the aid of obsidian globes to convert it into magical energy. But the Dragon's mighty spells required more of the dark orbs than his hands could hold, so he swallowed his globes and carried them inside his body. If Sadira could get close enough, she could shatter the obsidian in Borys' [correction added; Denning erred in the addition of a possessive "s" after Borys'],thus robbing him of his mightiest weapon.
Note that the term "dragon magic" is not in the above cited section, and indeed arguably there is mild evidence in this passage that animal life leeching abilities extend to the casting of lower than 10th level spells. However, one of Denning's clearest statements regarding "dragon magic" is in the VP, where Sadira explains to Tithian (330):
"Dragon magic relies on psionicis and sorcery together. To use it, you must be a master of pulling energy from your body and a genius at shaping it into spells. It's the most difficult kind of sorcery, but it's also the most powerful."
Given this, and given my previously stated opinion, evidenced by what I deem rather obvious supporting arguments, that Denning means what his characters allude (he is not trying to confuse his readers), Sacha and Wyan cast "dragon magic" and thus can cast 10th level spells. Surely this may be a surprising, or even disturbing conclusion on my part for many in the DS community, but the argument seems well supported by the facts. Alternatively, I have provided some evidence for "dragon magic," of a kind, in this sense meaning lower level spells that drain life energy, similar to the fashion of Lynn Abbey's godlike Hamanu's defiling abilities (which makes little sense in the canon PP universe, imho), as he is easily able to draw animal life force with low level spells, even without obsidian; e.g. he destroys Myron this way). Could S&W's "assistance" with the giant illusion have been lower level dragon magic, meaning that they simply used animal energy to power the spell, instead of or in addition to plant energy? It seems to me that this would have to be the argument for an alternative theory, but again I must relent to Denning's own words... I must conclude that S&W cast a 10th level defiler spell, and that, given it was a 10th level spell, its effects were notably cheap (and this coming from a rather staunchly conservative DM).
As far as the Crimson Legion goes however, the dragon magic issue is the last item of information we receive concerning S&W. Starting with the Amber Enchantress, our information on the two heads expands considerably, and will continue to do so as the pentad progresses.
Once again, the AE begins with a psionic episode involving Tithian and S&W, where they are training the king in the arts of the Way, again using telepathy, which once again reinforces that at the very least the heads are telepathic.
Just before Nok arrives at the Golden Palace, the heads provide an interesting item of information, for they seem curiously ambivalent about the Heroes' plan to deny the Dragon his levy, and in fact seem to desire to continue to pay Borys off. This may be quite a curious thing on their part, given their intentions to free Rajaat and defeat the Traitors, but in a nutshell they are likely all too aware that any real aggression against the Rebels or their cause to keep their erstwhile Master imprisoned would, at this point in the story, be met with rather certain failure and disaster. As they more or less say to Tithian, they know better than to deny Borys his levy (AE, 7).
Another interesting tidbit is that Wyan once again offers to have the Heroes assassinated, strengthening our evidence that the two heads, and interestingly perhaps especialy Wyan (cf. CL, 5, as previously discussed), were involved in various possible fashions with the running of Kalak's realm, while the sorcerer-king was alive.
When Nok kills Tithian's chamberlain, we receive a very important factoid, in that the two heads "split up to approach from different sides" the halfling party, as if in attack position, Tithian with some urgency waving them off (AE, 9). It is interesting, because the heads act as if they will be able to defend themselves and even attack, but Tithian calls them back because Tithian realizes that Nok's Heartwood Spear "would protect its wielder from the Way--which meant that Sacha and Wyan would be as ineffectual as gnats against him" (AE, 9). Perhaps this bit of information gives us more evidence for some degree of real psionic power possessed by the two heads. How much power however is what remains to be ascertained. Another interesting observation is that the heads do not prepare to use magic, nor is anything said or hinted of them being even able to do so in this passage.
The heads do not directly appear in the book until nearly the end, when the newly empowered Sadira is running back with Magnus near Tyr, when they discover the caravan the Dragon destroyed. The heads are there, and we are told that Sadira recognizes them, as she had seen them "often enough" as "advisors" Tithian had inherited from Kalak (AE, 323-4). The discussion Sadira and Magnus have with S&W is quite fascinating, as we hear the two's titles for the first time, and even that Wyan was a/the Lord of Bodach. The most illuminating information we receive however is that Sacha and Wyan do not demonstrate any real powers in this scene, as Sacha is for instance easily swatted far away by Sadira, and Wyan is temporarily blinded by some fashion of light spell from Sadira's repertoire, which may imply that S&W have little to no magic resistance, or perhaps Sadira's special nature or whatever one might argue cuts through any magic resistance they have, or at least makes it easier to do so. In any case, the two, perhaps through carelessness or pride, do not or are not able to defend themselves in any fashion from Sadira, nor do they attempt to demonstrate a show of force to make their message to the enchantress taken more seriously. Perhaps, one might argue, that could have made a show of force, but this might have startled Sadira, or put them in more mortal danger, and thus they did not pursue this option, especially because they wanted her help. We will return to these questions later however.
As far as the battle with Borys at Kled goes, the two heads enter into the combat arena, on page 330, and even follow Sadira in pursuit of the Dragon on page 334, which might allude to the possibility that the two thought they could have some real combat effectiveness, for if all they could do is bite and such, why would they follow Sadira? Upon close proximity to the Dragon however, S&W seem to bugger out (AE, 336).
At the standoff between Sadira and Borys however, the Dragon makes an interesting comment upon seeing S&W (AE, 338):
"Arala and Bodach. I have often wondered what became of you two after Kalak's death!" he hissed.
The implications of this are somewhat obvious, but they will be addressed more completely below.
... [we shall continue later]
questions, criticisms or comments welcome
I've seen them as being in a relatively precarious position of being able to slightly control Kalak... much as someone would be able to control a wild bengal tiger. They really could only convince him to do things he felt he wanted to do anyway, so they could have spent literally centuries slowly working on Kalak to make him think the way they wanted him to think. Two thousand years is a long freaking time to be hanging out together. And they could have started as being locked up and imprisoned... with Kalak slowly cracking to their combined wills. Mind you, that once again is a long time for the two heads to basically deal with a singular individual, and it could have significantly caused problems to them mentally as well.
Tithian... he had no chance, really. Sacha and Wyan might have "figured out" how to use magic and psionics together without needing to be developing as dragons... once again, 2,000 years as a pair of heads under the brutish care of an individual who would rather most likely see you permanently dead, could provide a number of avenues for them to sort of figure things out. As such, I like to leave it vague as to how they really were able to use things like "dragon magic", without actually being dragons. I don't like the notion of them being able to grant templar magic to anyone... because I personally really think that is something which is a direct side-effect of the rapid initial process that Borys used with the Dark Lens to start all of the rebel Champions on the path of being dragons.
As for Sacha and Wyan biting people rather than using anything else.... they could have just been toying with people. I always got the impression that they really didn't take anyone else (that wasn't a sorcerer-king or Rajaat himself) very seriously. In fact, they seemed to exude an aire of treating everyone else as playthings to abuse as they desired. They could have simply not considered he people they bit, as being worth the effort of using their magical or psionic capabilities. After all... if the other champions couldn't kill Sacha and Wyan, what chance does anyone else, other than Rajaat, have to being able to kill them? They also might have just liked to bite people -- it really is their only "physical attack" they have left.
As to them being undead or not... I like to think of them as not being undead, but their Champion natures, and beheaded situation leaves them in an interesting predicament that gives them certain... qualities that could be normally attributed to undead. So I think they are still alive... somehow... due to their being Champions. But they have some abilities/features of their existence (like possibly the feeding depicted for them) that might make them at least appear to be similar to undead, which can throw people off who might expect them to actually be undead.
Alternatively, I have provided some evidence for "dragon magic," of a kind, in this sense meaning lower level spells that drain life energy, similar to the fashion of Lynn Abbey's godlike Hamanu's defiling abilities (which makes little sense in the canon PP universe, imho), as he is easily able to draw animal life force with low level spells, even without obsidian; e.g. he destroys Myron this way).
I'll remind you that in Abbey's novels many of the incredible abilities demonstrated by Hamanu and the other SKs are from being Champions, not dragons. In the described scene Hamanu does not cast a spell, he instead kisses Myron on the mouth and sucks out his essence, thus de facto collapsing his body into a mound of ash...just as if dragon magic had been the cause of death.
This ability, whatever it is, is not part of the current Champion of Rajaat template. To defile like a dragon, or do anything of the style, one needs to be a dragon or cast a non-epic spell whose sole purpose is to rob a being of his life energy in a similar way.
does anyone feel that the way S&W were destroied in PP will not suffice to end the life of a Champion?
I remember tec being crushed under the Dark Lens, but it is not a weapon artefact so it is no more lethal than a big anvil... and a champion will likely regenerate that kind of wond!
So will S&W that were killed in similar non special ways...
Also:
What if somehow one of the headless bodies reappears? What if, the way beast headed giants used to do in the Obsidian Oracle, was the body to retain all the actual power of the original creature and the severed head just retained a twisted shard of the original personality? (note that this twist will explain why the 2 head were essentialliy powerless wile demostrating a vast knowlege of both the way and sorcery)
As more of an aside however, it should probably be rather sternly stated that R&FoaDK should not be drawn on as a source for establishing canon facts concerning S&W, save of course for something like the rather clumsey parallel I myself used, if for no other reason besides the fact that the Rise and Fall, in my view, ascribes powers to the monarchs which would make the events which occured in the PP essentially impossible for the Heroes to have achieved.
As for the issue of champion vs. dragon status, which may potentially be a matter of more serious consideration regarding any fuller discussion on S&W, let it very briefly be offered here (as it is addressed elsewhere far more elaborately), that the matter of the distinction between dragon and champion is somewhat unclear in PP canon, and is rendered even vaguer by what Pennarin has reminded me is the very large gap between champion and dragon in Lynn Abbey's books. Indeed, the image of the monarchs presented by Abbey is so pervasive in the Dark Sun community that the weaker kings and queens of the PP are largely left by the wayside. In this thread for instance, Quarnasco has offered an argument that King "Tec" should not have died so easily by the blow Rajaat gives him with the Dark Lens, or that he should heal from this wound, even though "Tec's skull split with a tremendous bang, spraying foul-smelling smoke and sizzling drops of fiery red blood in all directions" (CS, 315). The truth is that the monarchs are not so powerful as many might imagine them to be, at least in the PP, which supercedes Abbey. Kalak is killed with the Heartwood Spear by Agis, a simple lance through the brain... one does not have to burn a dragon's, or a champion's body and spread his ashes... they might regenerate, but not when already dead. Let us not then be too credulous to look for or imagine too great an array of powers bestowed upon Sacha and Wyan, at least not on the level Abbey might have assigned to the two...
As to another matter, in the PP, the difference between dragon and champion is difficult to arrive upon, but certainly it is not as extensive as Abbey might have it. We may surmise, really from Sadira's later sun powers alone, that all the champions empowered at the "Mud Palace" could, as she could, cast spells essentially on the fly, no longer requiring spellbooks, and limited only by, we assume, the number of spells castable as per the level of wizard the character in question had attained, such spell slots to be replaced at a rate of any number of variable theories (once every day, simply 10 minutes a spell level, etc.). Other than this, other powers held by the champions which normal dragons do not possess are difficult to come by. Arguably perhaps regeneration is a champion oriented ability in the PP, but such reminds me too much of nerfing, and is rather impossible to establish anyway without Denning or the like. Indeed, there are some who might argue that all dragons, even if not empowered at the Pristine Tower, can evoke spells as easily as the sun wizardess Sadira might (even though such an argument has little to no support). Then again, we are muddled with something like the Forest Maker adventure, where Abalach-re possesses a field spellbook written on a wall and such...
My main point is that we should not attempt to assign "champion" powers to S&W, especially when the distinction between dragon and champion is quite vague in the PP.
That's enough of my rant for now. I shall attempt to expand my main article above, which hopefully may be of use to some current or future campaign out there, or at least be of interest to the best of us Darksunophiles, in the near future.
Abbey's Champions indeed wipe the floor with Denning's SKs anytime, but Denning is not the only canon source used when creating new 3E material, as all sources are considered to a degree or another when creating templates and PrCs. I believe this was done with the Champion of Rajaat template, as it takes some of its powers from Abbey's books.
Still, if athas.org had went all Abbey on the SKs we'd seen levels between 30 and 60, insane epic prowess, etc etc. I'd go that way but only in my own campaign, not the official athas.org. Somehow unkillable is not that appealing, I learned that when making my first draft of the Scrocher sword. Dunno if you were there when I posted it but it was a small nuke: appropriate powers in the context of Abbey's novels, Rajaat's assumed power level, and the ELH, but way out of order with what athas.org wanted.
I have yet to read R&FoaDK, but I saw virtually nothing in the PP that that was not explainable by the rules of the game contemporary to the time.
Concerning Sadria: Anything she says about dragons or dragon magic/psionic enchantment should be taken with a grain of salt.
Sacha and Wyan might have "figured out" how to use magic and psionics together without needing to be developing as dragons...
I think it's pretty clear that Rajaat, when using the Dark Lens, and the Pristine tower, to create his champions (142nd kings age, Priest's Contemplation), is turning them all into 21st level dragons (by 2e rules). Hence, all champions are dragons. This is further supported by certain champions are clearly shown as advancing through the stages of transformation before the cleansing wars are over. Interor art (by baxa) in CbtSS shows Dregoth as a fourth (possibly fifth) stage dragon as he kills Tarskir(sp). Also, the cleansing wars last 1,500+ years. It's unlikely that traditional means of magical life extention would have allowed the champions to stay alive and in fighting shape for that long. Dragons don't age...
Later when the champions overthrow Rajaat and link themselves to living vortices. This is when they gain the ability to grant spells to templars, becoming "sorcerer kings".
Champion implies Dragon.
Sorcerer King/Queen tends to imply the ability to grant spells to templars.
more supportive of lower-level leeching magic, Rikus even cringes when three other monarchs cast protective spells
I see nothing beyond defilers casting spells in this example. In 2e there was an intiative penalty for anyone within the radius of defilement of any level defiler spell. It did not cause damage, but was disconcerting and painful.
Arguably perhaps regeneration is a champion oriented ability in the PP
It seemed pretty clear to me that the regeneration demonstrated by King Nibenay was the regeneration psychometabolic science, or the result of a magical ring of regeneration (or equivalent).
The next section of CL involving S&W is soon after the defeat of the Urikite siege train and its argosy, the first battle of the book. The scene is of considerable importance for the purposes of our discussion, and thus I shall include a considerable portion of it (CL, 30-1):
Just before having Tithian speak to the chieftain, we read the following:
These could simply be an example of use of the convergence, and magnify powers (possibly suplimented by standard magic) to boost a psychic messenger.
Sadria might not have detected it as magic simply because it was not magic, while Agis might have doubted that it was psionic because he had little grasp of what two 21st level dragons (S&W), with knowledge of metapsionic powers, and a rapidly advancing Tithian were capable of.
I do think Denning does mean dragon magic. However, I also think Denning means for the heroes to assume the worst, from what little they know of dragon magic.
Or maybe it was real dragon magic (though this seems like mega-overkill for such a simple effect). Tithian could simply have given Sacha and Wayn access to whatever was left of Kalak's spellbooks, and magical paraphinalia (including obsidian orbs), so that they could use this magic.
Kalak may have come to tolerate, or rely on S&W's council, but he undoubtably knew of their ultimate loyalties to Rajaat (it's why he and the other champions beheaded them) and the potential threat they posed to himself. He would have taken measures to cipple their abilities (with mindwipe, limiting acess to spellbooks, making sure they didn't have bodies, ect). Tithian may have removed these handicaps (psychic surgery to remove the mindwipe, once he had gained the ability to use that ability) in exchange for for the power they were offering.
Or, as xlorepdarkhelm mentions; it could have been a big charade by S&W.
I don't see any evidence anywhere of Dragons not requiring spellbooks to renew their magic.
As far as I am concerned, Sacha and Wyan are decapitated first stage dragons who were preserved for whatever reason, and thoroughly mindraped to keep them from causing Kalak too much trouble. Fit's the rules, makes sense, good enough. Occam's razor and what not.
I should probably read R&FoaDK, even though few consider it canon.
I think it's pretty clear that Rajaat, when using the Dark Lens, and the Pristine tower, to create his champions (142nd kings age, Priest's Contemplation), is turning them all into 21st level dragons (by 2e rules). Hence, all champions are dragons. This is further supported by certain champions are clearly shown as advancing through the stages of transformation before the cleansing wars are over. Interor art (by baxa) in CbtSS shows Dregoth as a fourth (possibly fifth) stage dragon as he kills Tarskir(sp). Also, the cleansing wars last 1,500+ years. It's unlikely that traditional means of magical life extention would have allowed the champions to stay alive and in fighting shape for that long. Dragons don't age...
Later when the champions overthrow Rajaat and link themselves to living vortices. This is when they gain the ability to grant spells to templars, becoming "sorcerer kings".
Actually, that is Lynn Abbey's variation of how it happened. Outside of her books, what is provided is that Rajaat made his Champions (there is no direct reference to the Dark Lens), and then later, after the revolt, Borys used the Dark Lens to advance all of the rebel Champions to stage-1 Dragons, and then all of them used it to advance Borys to a stage-10 Dragon.
Champion of Rajaat is a template that has nothing to do with being a Dragon. So,
Champion implies Dragon.
Is not correct, according to sources other than Lynn Abbey.
As far as I am concerned, Sacha and Wyan are decapitated first stage dragons who were preserved for whatever reason, and thoroughly mindraped to keep them from causing Kalak too much trouble. Fit's the rules, makes sense, good enough. Occam's razor and what not.
If you follow Abbey's take on when the dragon process started.
I should probably read R&FoaDK, even though few consider it canon.
It's a good book, curious you haven't read it, because you are quoting elements of it and basing your views upon those elements.
I have read a short synopsis on R&FoaDK, that cosisted of the back cover and a few comments on the book, but I really don't know that much about it. At the time I was really into Dark Sun, I was running a campaign, and only read the PP to better my knowledge of the background. Possibly non canon sources did not concern me.
Page 15-16, second to last paragraph of the "Time of Magic" section, of "The Wanderer's Chronicle", in the expanded and revised Dark Sun campaign, setting states the following:
Eventually, Rajaat sent all but fifteen of his students away. With the nature-manipulating powers of the Pristine Tower, he turned these fifteen students into his Champions. Drawing energy from the yellow sun, Rajaat imbued each of his Champions with immortality and the ability to draw magical energy from living creatures through the use of obsidian orbs. This, combined with their own psionic powers and defiling magic, would have made them nearly invincible. But Rajaat did not stop there. He hinted that there was a level of existence beyond that which he had granted them. "Through sorcery and psionics, you can become as gods!" Rajaat Promised, and his Champions believed him.
To me this is quite clear. Instead of needing mountains of wealth and 15,000 live energy levels, Rajaat uses the power of the sun to bootstrap all of his chosen students through the first stage of the Dragon transformation. He then tells them that there are further steps, and much greater power possible, and may have given them the Defiler Metamorphosis spell at this point. The part about obsidian orbs to access greater defiling magic, and the immortality (both key aspects of a Dragon), are what really convince me of this.
The next section does confuse things somewhat:
Approximately 2,000 years before the present day, Borys and most of the Champions betrayed Rajaat and imprisoned him in the Hollow. In exchange for the help they provided, Borys gave the Champions that were now loyal to him the following benefits: First, he allowed each Champion to claim one of the city-states of the Tyr Region as his or her own domain, elevating each to the title of sorcerer-king. Then he taught them the process for taking the next step up the ladder of existence: Borys taught the sorcerer-kings how to become dragon kings.
Using the Dark Lens to focus their combined magic and psionic energy, Borys began the transformations of the sorcerer-kings. The resulting storm of energy as the initial metamorphosing spells were cast connected each of the sorcerer-kings to ail of the elemental planes, thereby creating magical conduits through which elemental priestly magic could be cast, This magic could not be used by the sorcerer-kings themselves, but it could be imbued upon their loyal servants, the ternplats, the humans who helped in the Cleansing Wars.
Now the sorcerer-king were like gods, but Borys did not stop there. “One of us must complete the full transformation to dragon if the spells holding Rajaat are to
remain in place,” Borys explained. “One of us must become his warden for the rest of time. Borys, of course, was to be that warden. Using the Dark Lens again, the sorcerer-kings transformed Borys into the Dragon.
From this section it does seem that the Champions did not become dragons untill the imprisonment of Rajaat. However, this contradicts other parts of the established timeline. Elaborating on my Dregoth example, only 54 years passes between the time of Rajaats betrayal, and the rest of the Sorcerer King's killing him as a 29th level (9th stage) dragon. This is extremely implausible in my view. Dregoth was certainly powerful and ambitious, even among his peers, but I cannot concieve of how he could manage to complete 8 stages on his own in 50 years, when the next most powerful king takes over 2,000 years to finish 3.
Admittedly, the transformation, in utterly ideal circumstances can be done even faster, and Dregoths possible pace may have served as an ideal excuse fo the the attack on him.
However, Dregoth is also mentioned as having Dragon imagery worked into his amulets/coat of arms well before the end of the cleansing wars. Also, as I mentioned above, he is depicted mid-way through the transformation in art meant to represent a cleansing war battle. This may just be an example of artistic licence by Baxa, or an in game exaggeration by Dregoth, who was so obsessed with Dragonic imagery that he may have retroactively had himself depicted as one. There is also mention of his "scaly skin and elongated skull that he had recently developed".
In the end, I just took the path of least resistance. There are certainly otherways to explain immortality and the use of obsidian to defile non-plants, as magic/psionics can accomplish pretty much anything. However, it's simpler for me to not invent new, totaly redundant processes, when the evidence contradicting champions-implying-dragons is weak, and when the first stage of dragon metamorphosis can fit in so perfectly.
you are quoting elements of it
Not really possible. It's more likely that the author and I looked at the Dark Sun material and came up with a few of the same conclusions.
Page 15-16, second to last paragraph of the "Time of Magic" section, of "The Wanderer's Chronicle", in the expanded and revised Dark Sun campaign, setting states the following:
Eventually, Rajaat sent all but fifteen of his students away. With the nature-manipulating powers of the Pristine Tower, he turned these fifteen students into his Champions. Drawing energy from the yellow sun, Rajaat imbued each of his Champions with immortality and the ability to draw magical energy from living creatures through the use of obsidian orbs. This, combined with their own psionic powers and defiling magic, would have made them nearly invincible. But Rajaat did not stop there. He hinted that there was a level of existence beyond that which he had granted them. "Through sorcery and psionics, you can become as gods!" Rajaat Promised, and his Champions believed him.
This keeps getting referenced. The Athas.org decision was that the Champion of Rajaat template allows for the energy storing process, and more or less leaves it up to the individual DM to decide if this means that they became Dragons or not. It has been heavily argued, both for and against, but in the end, it does not define that Rajaat made them into dragons. especially as in other parts of the book, it does explicitly state that Borys started the transformation, like what you quoted next:
The next section does confuse things somewhat:
Approximately 2,000 years before the present day, Borys and most of the Champions betrayed Rajaat and imprisoned him in the Hollow. In exchange for the help they provided, Borys gave the Champions that were now loyal to him the following benefits: First, he allowed each Champion to claim one of the city-states of the Tyr Region as his or her own domain, elevating each to the title of sorcerer-king. Then he taught them the process for taking the next step up the ladder of existence: Borys taught the sorcerer-kings how to become dragon kings.
Using the Dark Lens to focus their combined magic and psionic energy, Borys began the transformations of the sorcerer-kings. The resulting storm of energy as the initial metamorphosing spells were cast connected each of the sorcerer-kings to ail of the elemental planes, thereby creating magical conduits through which elemental priestly magic could be cast, This magic could not be used by the sorcerer-kings themselves, but it could be imbued upon their loyal servants, the ternplats, the humans who helped in the Cleansing Wars.
Now the sorcerer-king were like gods, but Borys did not stop there. “One of us must complete the full transformation to dragon if the spells holding Rajaat are to
remain in place,” Borys explained. “One of us must become his warden for the rest of time. Borys, of course, was to be that warden. Using the Dark Lens again, the sorcerer-kings transformed Borys into the Dragon.
From this section it does seem that the Champions did not become dragons untill the imprisonment of Rajaat. However, this contradicts other parts of the established timeline. Elaborating on my Dregoth example, only 54 years passes between the time of Rajaats betrayal, and the rest of the Sorcerer King's killing him as a 29th level (9th stage) dragon. This is extremely implausible in my view. Dregoth was certainly powerful and ambitious, even among his peers, but I cannot concieve of how he could manage to complete 8 stages on his own in 50 years, when the next most powerful king takes over 2,000 years to finish 3.
The established timeline seems to separate Champion of Rajaat from Dragon -- which is the interpretation that we've used in the Epic Bureau, hense the Champion of Rajaat template, and the Dragon PrC/Epic Spell process. We've more or less worked under the presumption that what differentiates Sorcerer-Kings further, is their ability to grant Templar spells... which the established timeline defines as a unique event associated with Borys making the Champions start down the Dragon path.
However, Dregoth is also mentioned as having Dragon imagery worked into his amulets/coat of arms well before the end of the cleansing wars. Also, as I mentioned above, he is depicted mid-way through the transformation in art meant to represent a cleansing war battle. This may just be an example of artistic licence by Baxa, or an in game exaggeration by Dregoth, who was so obsessed with Dragonic imagery that he may have retroactively had himself depicted as one. There is also mention of his "scaly skin and elongated skull that he had recently developed".
I tend to work with the idea that Dregoth spent much of his time before and during the Cleansing Wars actually inventing the Dragon metamorphosis, and his research/development into this process was one of the leading reasons he never finished up with the eradication of the Giants.
In the end, I just took the path of least resistance. There are certainly otherways to explain immortality and the use of obsidian to defile non-plants, as magic/psionics can accomplish pretty much anything. However, it's simpler for me to not invent new, totaly redundant processes, when the evidence contradicting champions-implying-dragons is weak, and when the first stage of dragon metamorphosis can fit in so perfectly.
But it isn't totally redundant processes just because you say it is. The very book you quoted defines two separate events. That separation resulted in the development of 2 different Epic releases... Dragons and Champions of Rajaat.
As a further response to oralpain's recent comments, in addition to xloredarkhelm's response, with which I largely agree, some important points are worth re-emphasizing and clarifying.
I must sympathize with many of your sentiments oralpain, especially with those sentiments you held regarding "champion" essentially being a cognate with "dragon." Whereas I might in the end agree with such a conclusion, I fear however that the information which needs to be taken into account to reach such a conclusion is more complex than you seem to argue, but then again in your defense the source material and its meaning in question is somewhat involute in nature itself.
Even in the Prism Pentad we receive varying accounts of exactly what happened concerning the creation of the Champions and the events revolving around the Rebellion at the Pristine Tower. Were they dragons before the Rebellion, as you argue oralpain, or were they created after, etc? We should be prepared to deal with the conflicting accounts. Also, in response to the some of the most recent posts, we should be prepared to essentially dismiss less canonical sources. The second Dark Sun box set, as has been largely agreed upon and acknowledged in this forum, was a cruder and frequently poorly researched publication, written by Bill Slavicsek and without the direct involvement of Dark Sun core project members such as Denning, Timothy B. Brown, as well as William Connors and J. Robert King. The result was a campaign setting with a considerably different bent than that which seemed to have been originally intended. Furthermore, the intricacies of the timeline and story arc presented in the PP do not seem to have been followed with any great rigor, even though such details were obviously supposed to have spelled out the heart of the canon Dark Sun core story. Simply put, it seems Slavicsek seems to have glazed over many of the PP details, and just presented broad brush strokes of his own vision/interpretation of the events related in the Pentad. Such faults and errors continued to be produced with much of the post-2nd box set published materials, as any veterans of the Dark Sun community could readily attest to (even though for some, some of the "errors" were received with great delight). With all this in mind (and much more could certainly be said on the issue), we should probably not look to the Wanderer's Chronicle for the best of background to the issues being discussed in this particular thread. Indeed, with Abbey being largely dismissed, the Prism Pentad and the older, 1st box published materials should be, in my opinion, the greater part of our foundation for mapping out and establishing the answers to questions such as the dragon-champion issue being discussed here. This said, let us explore the issue, lightly here, as it has been done elsewhere (although to my knowledge not fully anywhere).
For instance, Nok tells us in the VP (280):
"Kalak is the Dragon?" she [Sadira] gasped.
"No. There are many dragons throughout the world," the halfling said. "Kalak is not yet one of them."
In this more unique case Denning may deliberately not be as precise as he often is [as I have argued for with some vigor in this thread and elsewhere, Denning does not try to confuse us with having his characters give out lies... all evidence seems to point towards the opposite conclusion]. Nok for instance is speaking somewhat vaguely. However, it must be admitted that Nok could be clearer here with what he means, and whether or not he is discussing full dragonhood or simply 21st level dragons or not cannot with total certainty be ascertained without asking Denning or the like directly. ...The possibility that other dragons, even 30th level ones, may be skulking around Athas is however a tantalizing possibility (cf. Dragon Kings p. 42 for other "probable" dragons beyond the Tyr region).
In another reference however, we see in the AE that the Book of Kemalok Kings has a version of events that certainly is very different than what the Wanderer's Chronicle offers (26):
"Here Sa'ram met the shadows, whom he bribed with obsidian. They told him that Rajaat and his champions had argued over the annihilation of the magical races, and fought a terrible battle against each other. By the time it had ended, Rajaat ruled the Pristine Tower no more. He was taken to the Steeple of Crystals and forced to use its arcane artifacts to make Borys into the Dragon."
Certainly this is from the dwarven annals, but nonetheless, we cannot simply dismiss it because we may or may not have a preconceived notion of what happened at the time of the Rebellion that differs with this account. We shall recall this version later, and after looking at other items in the PP that corroborate its account.
At the Steeple of Crystals for instance, Sadira retells the shadow giants the version of events she learned from the reading of the dwarven annals, and Khidar does not contradict her. Page 305 of AE reads: She quickly repeated what Er'Stali had told her: that the Champions had rebelled against Rajaat, and that they had forced him to make Borys intothe Dragon. Sadira and Khidar reached the Steeple of Crystals just as she came ot the story of how Jo'orsh and Sa'ram had tracked Borys to the Pristine Tower.
Khidar himself adds (305):
"Welcome to the Steeple of Crystlas," he said. "it was here that Rajaat imbued his champions with the power to carry out his will, and here that the traitors forced him to make Borys into the Dragon."
There is no very cogent reason for Khidar to lie about this.
Prince Dhojakt however offers something possibly contradictory to this version of events during his final confrontation with Sadira (AE, 317):
"I thought the shadows would have told you--my father [Nibenay] helped create the Dragon."
Sadira follows this up:
"What you claim is impossible. The Champions of Rajaat changed Borys into the Dragon--"
It seems however, in context, due to the literal contradiction, we may have here that the Champions, in forcing Rajaat to make the full transformation, the Champions de facto changing Borys into the Dragon, even though they did not literally do so.
However, let us continue.
The OO tweaks the previous version of the events at the Tower in a brief summary. Page 43 reads:
After overthrowing their master, the rebels had used his most powerful magical artifact to transform one of their own number, Borys of Ebe, into the Dragon....
Could this still mean that they forced Rajaat? Is Denning being here just very brief, and not elucidating properly?
The CS gives us a new waft of information however. Another summary on page 7 reads:
After dozens of centuries of fighting, the champions had learned that their master intended to strip them of their powers. They had rebelled, using the Dark Lens to lock Rajaat into a mystical prison forever. The other champions had each claimed one of the cities of Athas to rule as immortal sorcerer-kings.
Finally, during the Oba's speech after Borys' death, we read (280):
"The transformation into a Dragon is a difficult one," answered the Oba. "Shortly after we changed him, Borys lost his mental balance and went ona rampage..."
Notice the words "after we changed him..."
In brief, this is the bulk of the information regarding champions as dragons.
Again, oralpain, I believe your conception that the champions essentially are dragons with no further powers than regular dragons is essentially sound. Questions remain however. All the actual game supplements, such as Dragon's Crown and Forest Maker which discuss the issue of spells cast seem to reference, especially the Forest Maker adventure, the fact that even the sorcerer-kings (former champions) must rememorize spells the old fashioned way. However, the issue of Sadira and her ease in casting magic makes for a major difficulty for us. As she was a lesser creation of the Pristine Tower, why would the Champions, who were made with the Dark Lens in the Steeple of Crystals, be weaker in this respect? Unfortunately, there is really nothing in the PP to argue either way that the SKs had to memorize spells or not, so the Pentad does not help us, and admittedly, there is nothing in the game modules which might lead us to think they somehow received new spell slots everyday or some such, and in fact what is present in the game modules supports memorization, but regardless, as far as the PP goes, we are left with what I call the "Sadira problem." Aesthetically, I admit and prefer the SKs memorizing spells like everyone else, but very pointedly Sadira does not have to do this, and thus the contradiction remains. And then of course, if we give the champions this ability, do standard dragons and avangions have required memorization periods?
If you can solve this issue revolving around the "Sadira Problem" oralpain, or anyone else for that matter, I would be much enthused to read what you might have to offer. It is an annoying problem for me.
As for your criticism of my "life leeching" example, oralpain, I concede that the example of the battle before the Gate of Doom is not conclusive, but neither does it necessarily mean that it is in error. Remember that the PP emphasizes that dragons can use "dragon magic" to steal hit points from living creatures to power their spells. ...Really, if we limit this dragon defiling to 10th level spells, especially to 1d6 or 1d4 damage per level above 20th (save for half damage), we severely weaken the power as a whole, and given that there are no 10th level spells that are really useful for random combat scenarios (they all must be planned so far in advance... all those officially published in the old rules anyway), the effect would almost never see the light of day in any real action sequence. Aesthetically, I prefer the damage 1d6 per spell level, regardless of the level of the caster. Indeed, we cannot imagine that, for instance, Hamanu, in CL, was intending to use a 10th level spell from his bold looking staff... it would be complete overkill, and at 21st level he could only cast 1 anyway... to me Denning, although having all but no examples for it, imagined lower than 10th level defiling spells causing animals damage and even death, well beyond the initiative penalties of standard defilers (although certainly including such init. penalties for the dragons in addition to the damage!)
As for regeneration. In a nutshell, I personally favor it as a basic dragon ability, not associated with champions, although I must relent without conclusive evidence to the fancies of others. Admittedly however, oralpain, as far as I am aware, no game supplements, save for one (and a very important one), mention dragons regenerating. However, the PP has several examples, and to me, it is essentially undeniable that the champions demonstrate the standard ability. The Dragon for instance regrows his arm with incredible speed in the fight with the Heroes in the CS. Nibenay, although more slowly (given his lower level), heals his arm. There are several more examples which I need not cite at this time. Most importantly however is the fact that in the old Wanderer's Journal, a classic and foundational publication to the Dark Sun world as a whole, lists that the Dragon of Tyr regenerates 10 hp a round, automatically, in his monster stats. Given this, especially since Denning helped write the book, and given what is in the PP, it seems to me that, rather undeniably, champions at least, and almost certainly dragons, can regenerate. Surely, nothing is mentioned of this in Dragons Kings, but mistakes are rife in Dark Sun, even in the more canonical early publications (the Dragon of Tyr's monster stats for instance are inferior to what might have been listed... there is no truly canonical publication of Bory's stats in 2nd edition with which I am familiar... the Journal's stats are the closest thing).
(For rebuttles to me on healing... although they are not the best ones... reference Borys being healed by Rkard in CS, 207, or Borys' wound outside of Kemalok in AE, 24, etc.)
As for S&W's 10th level spell, in truth I heartily agree the effect does not warrant the casting of such magic (lowever level spells should have sufficied). As far as scrolls go however, no spell scrolls are either mentioned or used in the entirety of the PP, and it would seem to me to be a considerable stretch that this was what Denning had in mind. Furthermore, to me really only artifact level items could generate 10th level spells. This, in addition to previously made arguments and presented facts, it seems undeniable, however we might resist it, that S&W cast a 10th level spell.
I refer you to arguments I have made that Denning does not wish to confuse us oralpain. The statements he as the narrator or his characters make are pretty much always straightforward, and simply are meant to inform us more clearly of what is going on. My arguments for this are included in this thread, as well as several others, including the one at the following link:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=603507&page=1&pp=30
I think that's enough from me for now. Overall, oralpain, I am in much agreement with you. The champions seem to have been made 21st level dragons by Rajaat with the Lens and the Steeple, and received their templar granting abilities, all at the same time. The Chronicle is simply in what seems to be careless or willfull error, throwing out what is in the PP for Slavisek and company's fluff. I suppose it could be loosely debated, but I have made my arguments.
I shall continue with S&W later, if health, leisure and perseverance permits.
Happy Darksunning.
We know from the timeline that Sacha and Wyan attempted to free Rajaat from the Black Sphere but they get caught and beheaded. This is after all the Champions rebelled and tried to take out Rajaat.
They can't destroy him so they seperate his spirit and put it in the Hallow and all that. Then Sacha and Wyan try to free him, fail, get beheaded, then Borys turns the remaining Champions into dragons.
To mee it seems those two are more opertunists then anything else. The wind blows against Rajaat, we'll kill him. We defeated him but can't kill him, maybe we should pretend we were always on his side and try to free him. They just got caught. After being beheaded (thier Champion immortality powers keeping them alive as heads) they manage to escape.
Borys uses the Lens to turn the Champions into Sorcerer Kings, giving them the ability to grant Templars spells. What if the Dark Lens was linked to all the Champions back when Rajaat used it to turn them all into Champions? Unknown to Borys the heads also get tied to the living vortices and thus get the ability to grant spells. With thier newfound power they strike a deal with Kalak, a powerful wizard and psionicist. They'll help him become a dragon and a real sorcerer king, he uses the forces of Tyr to hide them and protect them from the Dragon (and maybe even help to release Rajaat?). While Kalak is far to weak to oppose a real sorcerer king let alone the Dragon, he's still pretty powerful and has a city at his beck and call.
[this post is a huge mess once I get home to my books and resources I will tidy it up a bit]
I agree no hands drastically reduces spell casting abilities
They were no confused/enslaved, "Kalak hasn't fed us for weeks" this comment wouldn't be made by a servant or confused person.
I believe they couldn't levitate/didn't want to - because they were so weak Kalak hadn't fed them in ages. And all their energy would have been draining when the Templars used their spells - The Brazen Gambit - every templar was reluctant to use their spells because they carried a hefty price - I imagine for using some of Hamanu's energy he drained some of theirs at a later time <- just a thought.
Tithian feeds them and they have enough energy to utilise their psionic powers - ie levitate etc.
They eat because it is just about the only way to regenerate their energy - short of some artifact/spells which they can't use/cast. Maybe they could regenerate their undead bodies if they gained enough energy but they were significantly weakened when borys SK's tried to kill them and by lack of feeding from Kalak and granting of energy sapping Templar spells.
The case for undead is strong - grey ooze when they are killed, empty minds full of insubstantial grey sludge(Agis uses The Way to attack Wyan, The Obsidian Oracle).
No healing - Wyan's broken teeth
No damage from a dagger in Wyan's head from Kester.
They can't regenerate their undead bodies because of some arcaine spells Bory's SK's cast on them?
Warm but not necessarily living, also surely by helping Kalak with the knowledge to transform they were sealing his fate - insane rage and battle with the other SK's & Bory's resulting in someones death - either way good for them another death of their & Rajaats enemies. 1000 less slaves every year to keep him trapped, or say Borys death, or a nother SK's death. Even if S&W are killed Rajaat can revive them later and why wouldn't he resurrect such loyal SK's.
xlorepdarkhelm
disagree with you there they loved to eat and using the way would sap energy they needed.
King tec was killed so easily because Rajaat was very intermit with the powers dark lens afforded/he used some huge strength and/or enhanced (by "The Way") force - Rajaat had become much more powerful during his captivity - if only by intelligence, resulting in more precise control of his powers. Everyone else didn't have the dark lens for any length of time, except Jo'orsh & Sa'ram and look at the enchantments they made with it - reveal the location and your brain melts into sludge!
oral pain
CbtSS shows Dregoth as a fourth level dragon - I totally disagree with this they didn't know what they were before they defeated Rajaat(just my opinion - but I'm sure I have some canon to back this up).I feel they only found out Rajaat began them on the dragon metamorphosis(stage one) after they fought and defeated him, because that is when they decided to make Borys fully metamorphosised(after he made Rajaats prison and S&W were disabled).
They know of the Urikite Advance on Tyr because of communication with Umbra perhaps?
S&W could have been operating an arcane artifact from Kalak's treasury to project Tithian in the CL novel.
zmaj
I believe they went along with the plan to trap Rajaat because if they didn't they would have been killed(reduced in power etc.) by all the other SK's around at the time, and they didn't know they were feeling the same - couldn't really talk about deserting the other SK's when they were surrounded by them during the rebellion, besides later when SK's had all gone off to their city-states was a much better time to attempt a rescue once they had discovered their likemindedness - perhaps with communication with the black/shadow giants - Wyan: "I want to free Rajaat, how shall I go about this." Umbra: "First you should meet up with Sacha he is also loyal and has instructions for Rajaats rescue."
Ah yes the contradictions and vagueness of the novels - well they are novels not technical AD&D rule sets so they are going to vary and we shouldn't try and analyse every word for technical AD&D rules to apply to our game. Lets decide on a Unified Theory of Everything(my name is Stephen Hawking and this is Dark Sun String Theory lol) a merger of ideas from the novels/technical books the ideas that everyone likes that fit best. We could have several separate groups who support different paths.
Also how could Rikus kill Sacha with a knee to the head? True he killed Bory's
and would have progressed to level 18(perhaps)?
What happened to DarkSunRising - does anyone have those 3 main maps, Where are you Brian? Our Cartographic God has forsaken us!
I've been watching these forums for about 2 years, and I have finally decided to join up.
Welcome.
xlorepdarkhelm
disagree with you there they loved to eat and using the way would sap energy they needed.
hmm? Disagree with me where?
What happened to DarkSunRising - does anyone have those 3 main maps, Where are you Brian? Our Cartographic God has forsaken us!
DarkSunrising.info was run and operated by cyrus9a, who had died in a car accident. His brother came here at one point to let us all know. He is greatly missed. Brian I think has been busy, and inable to continue his mapmaking project.
The Brazen Gambit - every templar was reluctant to use their spells because they carried a hefty price - I imagine for using some of Hamanu's energy he drained some of theirs at a later time
Nice idea. Typical of Hamanu's way of doing things, as per RaFoaDK.
hmm? Disagree with me where?
As for Sacha and Wyan biting people rather than using anything else.... they could have just been toying with people. I always got the impression that they really didn't take anyone else (that wasn't a sorcerer-king or Rajaat himself) very seriously. In fact, they seemed to exude an aire of treating everyone else as playthings to abuse as they desired. They could have simply not considered he people they bit, as being worth the effort of using their magical or psionic capabilities. After all... if the other champions couldn't kill Sacha and Wyan, what chance does anyone else, other than Rajaat, have to being able to kill them? They also might have just liked to bite people -- it really is their only "physical attack" they have left.
Thats what I mean't to put in there - I believe it was more about conserving their energy for useful times, self defense, freeing Rajaat, etc.
Damn I hate cars, but is there anywhere that those 3 main maps are hosted, or anyone able to email them to me?
Nice idea. Typical of Hamanu's way of doing things, as per RaFoaDK.
No I think thats how all the SK's Templar giving powers work - after all thats how the elemental planes balance out, each element needs followers/worshipers to provide them with power in the struggle for control of the elemental planes so each time a Elemental being gves powers to a lesser elemental being they lose some power but in the long term they gain more power/have power resources to call upon.
In short it just balances things out more - like magic in DS drains life so should templar spells - I mean they are drawing the energy from somewhere!(a SK doesn't suddenly wake up in the middle of the night and defile a garden because a templar has used a spell - or the Living Vortice doesn't become weakened.
Which takes me to Living Vortices - they can't be extinct because there is one for every SK - now if only we could get them together for some breeding in captivity to rejuvenate the species
As for Sacha and Wyan biting people rather than using anything else.... they could have just been toying with people. I always got the impression that they really didn't take anyone else (that wasn't a sorcerer-king or Rajaat himself) very seriously. In fact, they seemed to exude an aire of treating everyone else as playthings to abuse as they desired. They could have simply not considered he people they bit, as being worth the effort of using their magical or psionic capabilities. After all... if the other champions couldn't kill Sacha and Wyan, what chance does anyone else, other than Rajaat, have to being able to kill them? They also might have just liked to bite people -- it really is their only "physical attack" they have left.
Thats what I mean't to put in there - I believe it was more about conserving their energy for useful times, self defense, freeing Rajaat, etc.
I'm still confused, how does that disagree with or conflict with my statement at all?
Damn I hate cars, but is there anywhere that those 3 main maps are hosted, or anyone able to email them to me?
I have them I just have to get them on my new site still (they are tucked away in a backup of my old website)
My point is they probably could have and would have prefered to use the way to inflict torturous pain upon their victims(and I am sure they would have prefered not to eat people - unless they were undead -- needing to eat for some reason*), except that [I believe] they needed/prefered to reserve their energy for a more important time.
I'll simplify this -
you(xlorepdarkhelm) - S&W like to bite/can only
me(borys_son) - they don't prefer to bite, do it only to reserve their (psp)energy[of coarse there may be the undead compulsion to bite eat people]
*so someone who knows about the undeads undying need to eat, please come to our rescue here and explain this. [I'm off to google AD&D rules on the undeads hunger for brains]
Sacha and Wyan are just sadistic jerks.
Yes not an undead compulsion but a need to eat for energy purposes. I am sure with the right kind of energy resources/artifact perhaps help from a wizard they could rejuvenate their undead bodies just like Dregoth.
As for Sacha and Wyan biting people rather than using anything else.... they could have just been toying with people. They also might have just liked to bite people -- it really is their only "physical attack" they have left.
My point is they probably could have and would have prefered to use the way to inflict torturous pain upon their victims(and I am sure they would have prefered not to eat people - unless they were undead -- needing to eat for some reason*), except that [I believe] they needed/prefered to reserve their energy for a more important time.
I'll simplify this -
you(xlorepdarkhelm) - S&W like to bite/can only
me(borys_son) - they don't prefer to bite, do it only to reserve their (psp)energy[of coarse there may be the undead compulsion to bite eat people]
Ok... see.... what I said, could still be tied into them reserving energy. I do think they were sadistic jerks, and probably had a couple different mindsets about things. First -- their bretheren Champions are all traitors. Second, the traitors seemed incapable of killing them. Third, they needed to free Rajaat to punish the traitors. I'm guessing their "power supply" is pretty lkimited, so of course they'd be wanting to hold back, and keep it in reserves. But I also think they just plain liked tormenting people, and enjoyed biting people. As I said, the two ideas are not mutually exclusive.
*so someone who knows about the undeads undying need to eat, please come to our rescue here and explain this. [I'm off to google AD&D rules on the undeads hunger for brains]
I don't think they are undead. They might have some undead-like qualities, but I don't think they actually are undead. Denning didn't give clues, or even hints to them being undead. There was no ritual or magic performed (in any of the materials) that made them undead. All that is known is they were beheaded, and... the heads are still alive & animated. What purpose would it serve Borys and the other sorcerer-kings to keeping those two around to backstab them? Nothing.
Maybe a more objective definition of undead is needed?
Sounds like something a bunch of lawful evil, epic-level uber-villains would do to a couple traitors whom they probably never liked in the first place (since they probably all didn't get along, really).
For those arguing that S&W aren't undead and couldn't be killed due to their Champion natures how would you explain Dregoth? Under that assumption the Dread King couldn't exist in his current state of undeath, or even have been killed for that matter. Sure, you could pin it on the fact that S&W may not have been despatched in the same manner as Dregoth (i.e. the use of the Scorcher), but thats not to strong of an argument. But hey, that might just be me ;)
I dunno, perhaps Rajaat, sensing something was happening, did something that prevents Sacha & Wyan's deaths. He might have heard whispers, sensed it himnself, or otherwise knew that there was dissent among his Champions, and took measures to prevent those he knew were truly loyal to him from being killed -- but not had time to do more than the minimum necessary. Or they are undead, and it is some sort of contingency on them that keeps them around. six of one, half dozen of the other, I think. Personally, I think making them undead is the less.... interesting path.
Ok... see.... what I said, could still be tied into them reserving energy. I do think they were sadistic jerks, and probably had a couple different mindsets about things. First -- their bretheren Champions are all traitors. Second, the traitors seemed incapable of killing them. Third, they needed to free Rajaat to punish the traitors. I'm guessing their "power supply" is pretty lkimited, so of course they'd be wanting to hold back, and keep it in reserves. But I also think they just plain liked tormenting people, and enjoyed biting people. As I said, the two ideas are not mutually exclusive.
I think we agree, I think that they are sadistic and love to bite too.
I don't think they are undead. They might have some undead-like qualities, but I don't think they actually are undead. Denning didn't give clues, or even hints to them being undead. There was no ritual or magic performed (in any of the materials) that made them undead. All that is known is they were beheaded, and... the heads are still alive & animated. What purpose would it serve Borys and the other sorcerer-kings to keeping those two around to backstab them? Nothing.
I don't thinkt hey are undead per se either. Appologies if my last post appeared to imply something else.
Maybe a more objective definition of undead is needed?
I must disagree, they weren't made undead by Borys and the SK's. It's my belief that they are some form of undead(on some immortal level), we don't get much evidence for all sorts dark things from the dark sun novels - let alone the rest of the DS resources. It's my belief that there is enough evidence to support my theory.
For those arguing that S&W aren't undead and couldn't be killed due to their Champion natures how would you explain Dregoth? Under that assumption the Dread King couldn't exist in his current state of undeath, or even have been killed for that matter. Sure, you could pin it on the fact that S&W may not have been despatched in the same manner as Dregoth (i.e. the use of the Scorcher), but thats not to strong of an argument. But hey, that might just be me
Have to agree with that logic - using the scorcher to dispatch Dregoth plus the SK's might have had better magic at their disposal -- Bory's certainly had reached a new power level altogether. S&W were not in any danger since they were being held/used by Kalak.
Personally, I think making them undead is the less.... interesting path.
I don't necessarily think they are a classical undead. We could make them some sort of immortal undead where they can regenerate their bodies if they had help from a powerful wizard/artifact/huge energy source--dark lens / a city-state ziggurate.
A stronger argument (as Dirk has pointed out) is that the other Champions reserved a special punishment for S&W for turning on them by trying to free their former master and teacher the Warbringer.
But then they rebel and need to kill S&W...they don't know how. So they mutilate them on the idea that without their bodies their powers will be severly diminished.
Hundreds of years after the rebellion, after each Champion has had all that time to consider what he or she'll do if a neighboring Champion decides to try and kill them (now that Rajaat is out of the picture and that each Champion's time is no longer taken by cleansing), Hamanu is the first to confront another Champion - Sielba - and successfuly butchers her.
(In RaFoaDK, Hamanu has one unique power, a kind of uber defiling, but he doesn't use it when he kills Sielba, he uses a simple knife. Apparently its knowledge that allows him to do this feat...as if Champions had a special or mystical anatomy one needs to explore first if his strike is to be true.)
So in theory, it could have gone something like this:
- S&W rebel, but they're caught by Gallard and Borys, the two "leaders" of the rebellion and IMO the most likely to have been near the obsidian orb when S&W attempted to break it open (this is based on Abbey's idea that Gallard was the one whom created the imprisonment spell to begin with). They can't kill the two, and don't fully know what Hamanu's capable of, so they do the best they can - cut S&Ws heads off.
- Borys is then turned into the Dragon, goes crazy, so the Champions all split up and retreat to their cities. This is likely when Kalak runs off with S&W; after all, *someone* might as well do it.
- The S-K's collectively kill Dregoth. Everyone sees that Hamanu obviously has some special ability in this regard, but either he tricks them into thinking it's the Scorcher or else they think that it's a combination of the Scorcher and his own abilities. In either case, Hamanu gets rid of the sword and everyone goes back to hiding from Borys.
- Hamanu kills Sielba. Since he doesn't have the sword but did it anyway, it's pretty obvious to everyone at this point that Hamanu is capable of killing another Champion himself.
- Kalid-ma goes on his rampage, and since the S-K's now know "don't F with Hamanu" Borys asks for his help and (for whatever reason) Kalak's. Kalid-ma is killed, probably at the hands of Hamanu.
In any case, the end result of this scenario is that S&W probably aren't "alive" in the truest sense of the word, but they're not necessarily undead either...who really knows? They display some undead qualities, but also display qualities of life...but undead on Athas are almost always unique, so perhaps they *are* undead and simply have disadvantages (and advantages) as free-willed, unique undead that give them some semblance of life.
It's sorta like a Tootsie Pop - maybe the world will never know.
perhaps Hamanu truly is the only entity (other than Rajaat) capable of destroying another Champion, and that's specifically because he was "designed" that way.
Perhaps you intended to mix Abbey and the rest, but if not I have to point to you that in Abbey's work Hamanu mentions its lack of the appropriate knowledge that prevented Champions from killing each other before the rebellion, and that once the knowledge was uncovered nothing could prevent one Champion - any Champion - from killing another.
The idea of "only if Hamanu participates" can a Champion be killed is NOT from Abbey's work, but is instead a product of this forum.
Is there more evidence of Hamanu's uniqueness in works other than Abbey's? I don't recall any at the moment. In fact...what I recall from Denning's work is that Hamanu might not have been unique had Rajaat replaced additional Champions besides Myron. If, say, Sielba had been replaced by Rajaat then she would have been immune to the Scrourge too, and just like Hamanu benefited from Rajaat's improvements upon the Champion form.
The idea of "only if Hamanu participates" can a Champion be killed is NOT from Abbey's work, but is instead a product of this forum.
And Hamanu vasn't present wen Kalak was killed...
back on the issue of S&W I'll love to se the headless boyes of the Champions to surface again from theyr graves now that the the false selves represented by the severed heads are no more warding them against it..,
the severing of the heads and the fact both remained coscient and powerless semms to me a clue of a more complicate ritual used to spoil the contermesures against being slain I will take if I was a poverfull defiler confronted with a group of my equals that overnumber my faction 6 to 1....
However, an item of note is that other than Kalak, Hamanu was present at all the other Champions deaths.
Good point.
So they mutilate them on the idea that without their bodies their powers will be severly diminished.
Not mutilated, but I like everything else you have said. S&W's broken teeth could have come from a shockwave spell when they were captured during the rebellion(vibration like Sadira used on Borys to smash his obsidian spheres). And Borys knew Kalak had S&W: The Amber Enchantress "Arala and Bodach. I have often wondered what became of you two after Kalak's death!", so perhaps Kalak was the one to stich up their necks because they were useful to him.
dirk00001
Great stuff
quarnasco
I have trouble standingunder your writs.
quarnasco
I have trouble standingunder your writs.
And U meant? And I forgot about Kalak.
(More specifically, I misread Sysane's statement that "However, an item of note is that other than Kalak, Hamanu was present at all the other Champions deaths," as 'Kalak was present at every death' rather than 'Kalak was the only exception to the idea that Hamanu was present at the other deaths').With Kalak, however, we *do* have the Heartwood Spear involved and, as an artifact, who knows how much of a difference that may have made. Recently there was a thread discussing Kalak's transformation, and it was mentioned that he may have partially caused his own demise by "pushing himself too much" with the full metamorphosis after already having suffered a grievious wound from the spear. At any rate, although this does answer the question as to whether or not someone/thing other than Rajaat or Hamanu can definitely kill a Champion ("yes"), it doesn't necessarily apply to the Champions themselves; Rajaat could have "built into" the Champions the inability to kill each other as a way to insure that, should they come to blows while the CW was still going on, they didn't inadvertently kill one another and thus hurt the overall war effort. As Xlorep likes to state, they're not mutually exclusive ideas (;)) - it's possible that, amongst the Champions, only Hamanu has the power to kill another Champion, but outside of that circle it's possible (albeit difficult) for anyone to do so given a lot of luck and the right circumstances.
Then of course Rajaat can kill them, but that's a separate matter entirely.
Re: Kalak and the Heartwood Spear, there's still/also the possibility that he wasn't technically a Champion and thus his death (if you take that stance) would have no impact at all on the idea that Hamanu and Rajaat (or Rajaat's artifacts) are the only ones/things capable of killing a Champion.
In the context of Denning's work, I'd say the only thing that's different with Hamanu in terms of abilities is that he's immune to some of Rajaat's artifacts and defenseless towards others (immune when other Champions are defenseless and vice versa). To this you can add a few minor improvements to his form (i.e. better template abilities).
Is there more evidence of Hamanu's uniqueness in works other than Abbey's? I don't recall any at the moment. In fact...what I recall from Denning's work is that Hamanu might not have been unique had Rajaat replaced additional Champions besides Myron. If, say, Sielba had been replaced by Rajaat then she would have been immune to the Scrourge too, and just like Hamanu benefited from Rajaat's improvements upon the Champion form.
From the battle at the archway towards the end of the Cerulean Storm (summarized except for Sacha's statement which is verbatim):
Rikus keeps getting his arse kicked by Hamanu, totally incapable of even defending himself against Hamanu's physical attacks, so Sacha gives him a steel dagger and says "Hamanu wasn't one of the original champions, Rajaat created him to kill the idiot Troll Scorcher, Myron of Yoram, so the Scourge's magic works backwards against him. The blade won't injure him, and while you're holding it you can't defend yourself against his blows. Use plain steel instead." Rikus throws the dagger into his back which, despite being a plain steel dagger (as far as we're made aware) sinks deep into Hamanu. Since he's not holding the Scourge he's then able to avoid (mostly) an attack from Hamanu and proceeds to twist the blade and push it in all the way up to the hilt and almost up into his heart. Hamanu then gets dragged away before there's any indication that his heart is actually pierced, and that's the end of that part of the fight.
With that, however, we've got some really unique things going on with Hamanu - not only is he totally immune to Rajaat's artifact, but Sacha specifically states that it "works backwards" and that Hamanu was "created" in order to kill another one of the Champions. The way Sacha states it almost sounds as if Rajaat may have made *all* Champion magic work 'in reverse' against him. Although its not a definite, in my mind it makes sense - if Hamanu is immune to the Scourge then he's probably immune to any of Rajaat's other artifact-weapons (Myron had the Scorcher, Hamanu was created to kill Myron, so Hamanu's artifact-immunity should work against the Scorcher as well, and if it works against both the Scorcher and the Scourge it likely works against all of Rajaat's artifact-weapons). And if he's immune to all of Rajaat's artifact weapons, again as part of his "creation" to destroy another Champion, it's not much of a stretch to suggest that he was also immune to Myron's magic (or more specifically, that it worked 'opposite' against him); if Rajaat is going to make a Champion-killer, why would he only make him immune to an artifact when the Champion he was intended to kill also had access to powerful spells? (Assuming Myron could cast, of course) Artifacts are generally considered to be much more potent than mere magic, no matter who is casting it, so if Rajaat could make Hamanu immune to an artifact I don't see any logical reason why he wouldn't have also given him the same defenses against Myron's magic...and by extension, the magic of the other S-K's. (Yes, I realize I'm going out on a limb here...)
Then you've got the issue of a steel dagger nearly killing Hamanu; seems pretty extreme, at least from the general standpoint that the Champions are much more powerful than a "normal" dragon. Earlier in the book a dozen dwarves try and hack Abalach-Re apart with steel axes and the weapons bounce off of her, not even leaving a mark, so steel definitely doesn't affect her (and likely, the other Champions) the same way it does Hamanu.
So: Hamanu has several traits which are quite different than those of the other Champions and was definitely created to destroy another Champion. Nothing in Denning's or any of the other (non-Abbey) DS material lists any other Champions that were replaced (AFAIK at least), so right now we're still talking about a completely unique Champion that took part in every Champion-inflicted death of another Champion.
Also, every SK is an opportunist who would be more than willing to take advantage of any significant weakness shown by another King/Queen. Most confrontations between champions/SK's would result in a stalemate or a pyrrhic victory. It's not prudent for them to directly act against eachother.
The way Sacha states it almost sounds as if Rajaat may have made *all* Champion magic work 'in reverse' against him.
I doubt even Rajaat had this power. It's one thing to grant immunity to an item you designed and built; it's an entirely different thing to grant immunity to the personal powers of another being.
I doubt Rajaat himself was immune to the magic, psionics, or weapons (that he did not create) of his champions. He just had greater might, the extent of which was unknown (and therefore much more fearsome) to his champions.
If Hamanu had the power to kill champions, but the other champions could not kill him, I see no reason why Hamanu would not have killed them all a long time ago.
Then you've got the issue of a steel dagger nearly killing Hamanu; seems pretty extreme, at least from the general standpoint that the Champions are much more powerful than a "normal" dragon.
I don't feel the champions have any more personal power than any other dragon of eqivalent level. The only thing sorcerer kings have got that other dragons don't are cities, armies, tax revenue, and the ability to grant templar magic.
Hamanu was overconfident, and it almost cost him his life.
With Kalak, however, we *do* have the Heartwood Spear involved and, as an artifact, who knows how much of a difference that may have made. Recently there was a thread discussing Kalak's transformation, and it was mentioned that he may have partially caused his own demise by "pushing himself too much" with the full metamorphosis after already having suffered a grievious wound from the spear.
Another case of overconfidence. The description of the heartwood spear states that it ignores all magical protections. Kalak relied on his spells/enchanted items to protect him in public, so he basically just sat there as the spear sailed towards him. By the time he realised his magic couldn't stop it, the spear was probably well behind him.
As stated in Dragon Kings, each stage of the metamorphosis is uncertain. Kalak might have died during the casting, even without any attack at all. I think it's quite reasonable to assume that having a spear thrown through one's chest would further weaken one's ability to withstand tremendous shock.
Kalak and the Heartwood Spear, there's still/also the possibility that he wasn't technically a Champion and thus his death (if you take that stance) would have no impact at all on the idea that Hamanu and Rajaat (or Rajaat's artifacts) are the only ones/things capable of killing a Champion.
I totally forgot about that little fact, thank you.
From the battle at the archway towards the end of the Cerulean Storm (summarized except for Sacha's statement which is verbatim):
Rikus keeps getting his arse kicked by Hamanu, totally incapable of even defending himself against Hamanu's physical attacks, so Sacha gives him a steel dagger and says "Hamanu wasn't one of the original champions, Rajaat created him to kill the idiot Troll Scorcher, Myron of Yoram, so the Scourge's magic works backwards against him. The blade won't injure him, and while you're holding it you can't defend yourself against his blows. Use plain steel instead." Hamanu was "created" in order to kill another one of the Champions. The way Sacha states it almost sounds as if Rajaat may have made *all* Champion magic work 'in reverse' against him. Although its not a definite, in my mind it makes sense - if Hamanu is immune to the Scourge then he's probably immune to any of Rajaat's other artifact-weapons (Myron had the Scorcher, Hamanu was created to kill Myron, so Hamanu's artifact-immunity should work against the Scorcher as well, and if it works against both the Scorcher and the Scourge it likely works against all of Rajaat's artifact-weapons). And if he's immune to all of Rajaat's artifact weapons, again as part of his "creation" to destroy another Champion, it's not much of a stretch to suggest that he was also immune to Myron's magic (or more specifically, that it worked 'opposite' against him); if Rajaat is going to make a Champion-killer, why would he only make him immune to an artifact when the Champion he was intended to kill also had access to powerful spells? (Assuming Myron could cast, of course) Artifacts are generally considered to be much more potent than mere magic, no matter who is casting it, so if Rajaat could make Hamanu immune to an artifact I don't see any logical reason why he wouldn't have also given him the same defenses against Myron's magic...and by extension, the magic of the other S-K's. (Yes, I realize I'm going out on a limb here...)
I always wondered where people got the info about Myron of Yoram, Troll Scorcher (always read that part in the book to mean Myron leader of the Trolls that Hamanu was cleansing - dunno why just crazy confusion in my mind).
I like that idea of Hamanu being immune to the other SKs magic.
Then you've got the issue of a steel dagger nearly killing Hamanu; seems pretty extreme, at least from the general standpoint that the Champions are much more powerful than a "normal" dragon.
What do you mean by a "normal" dragon?
Earlier in the book a dozen dwarves try and hack Abalach-Re apart with steel axes and the weapons bounce off of her, not even leaving a mark, so steel definitely doesn't affect her (and likely, the other Champions) the same way it does Hamanu.
So: Hamanu has several traits which are quite different than those of the other Champions and was definitely created to destroy another Champion. Nothing in Denning's or any of the other (non-Abbey) DS material lists any other Champions that were replaced (AFAIK at least), so right now we're still talking about a completely unique Champion that took part in every Champion-inflicted death of another Champion.
It is my belief that Myron was a test to see how well Manu could extinguish a Champion that wielded an artifact of Rajaat. Although there is the case of him being called an "idiot", but Sacha loves to ridicule anyone given half a reason, and he may have just mean't Myron didn't figure out his weapon (& magic?) wern't working in time.
Instead, I can see them engaging in long-term battles of attrition, playing off their rival's weaknesses and hoping to impede their rival's advancement while they strengthen themselves.
itf
I doubt Rajaat himself was immune to the magic, psionics, or weapons (that he did not create) of his champions. He just had greater might, the extent of which was unknown (and therefore much more fearsome) to his champions.
I calculated once, on this board, the psion level required of Rajaat to do what he did in RaFoaDK, that is dominate every Champion at the same time, and it was in the order of something like 80 levels of psion...
The Man kicks ass, to say the least :D
I am of the mindset that the Champions were capable of killing each other, but because they are so powerful, they prefer to avoid a crude one-on-one battle (after all, they cannot be sure who will win). Add the element of mystery regarding each individual SM's transformation and the powers which may or may not go along with it, I think that the SM's would be very reluctant to enter a direct fight with one another.
Instead, I can see them engaging in long-term battles of attrition, playing off their rival's weaknesses and hoping to impede their rival's advancement while they strengthen themselves.
This deserves its own
I doubt even Rajaat had this power. It's one thing to grant immunity to an item you designed and built; it's an entirely different thing to grant immunity to the personal powers of another being.
Well, lesse here: Rajaat created magic. Rajaat taught magic to all his Champions. Rajaat created his Champions using the most powerful magical artifact in existence (the Dark Lens). Rajaat created sword-artifacts that have built-in abilities specifically meant to work against other Champions despite the weapons' "real" intensions (the Scourge was supposedly created to kill dwarves, and yet it protects the wielder from all attacks from other Champions. Hmmm...).
I see no reason why someone with those capabilities and raw magical strength (not to mention psionic abilities) couldn't have built this sort of defense into a Champion. He *did* "make" the Champions, after all; yes, it's not exactly the same as creating an artifact, but it wasn't simply a matter of teaching them and letting them go - it's mentioned in several sources that the Champions aren't just high-level defilers/psions; Rajaat gave them special abilities to boot, hence why athas.org came up with the Champion of Rajaat template.
I doubt Rajaat himself was immune to the magic, psionics, or weapons (that he did not create) of his champions. He just had greater might, the extent of which was unknown (and therefore much more fearsome) to his champions.
Er...Rajaat is imprisoned in the most powerful "prison" the Champions could devise because they *couldn't* kill him. That sounds like immunity to me. In the PP you don't see the Champions blasting away at him with offensive spells or anything - they simply try to do what they (assumedly) did the first time, which is keep him busy with psionic powers (pretty much just trying to distract him) while others deal with his body and soul. He's not "rebounding" these powers, true, but he can't be destroyed by them. And if he himself can't be destroyed by magic and psionics, I don't see why he couldn't imbue some of that ability into a "Champion Mk. II" such as Hamanu. I'm not saying that this is what he did, or that he could (or even would) make a Champion completely immune to other Champions...but if you want to go the idea that Hamanu's "uniqueness" is because he was to be the one that'd cleanse the cleansers when all the other New Races were dead, then it's a good bet that Hamanu would have additional protections against magic (or at least Champion magic) beyond simply being immune to artifacts.
If Hamanu had the power to kill champions, but the other champions could not kill him, I see no reason why Hamanu would not have killed them all a long time ago.
As was seen with Rajaat, simply not being able to kill someone doesn't mean that you can't defeat them. The only Champion that was killed by a single enemy Champion was Sielba, "easily" by the hands of Hamanu, but general consensus puts her at the bottom of the Champion-power totem pole. Other than her, however, every other Champion to have been killed by fellow Champions was attacked by multiple Champions. Although Hamanu (given my theory of things) could have single-handedly killed any of them, there are all sorts of things that could have gone wrong would he have tried it himself; much safer to do so with the help of his comrades who could counterspell or otherwise "tie up" the enemy while Hamanu does his thing.
That aside, rather than asking why *wouldn't* Hamanu have killed the other S-Ks, the more pertinent question is why *would* he? He's got his own city-state, he pays a yearly levy to keep his creator and former master trapped away in the Hollow, and the few times that another S-K gets uppity and attacks him he smacks them down. Things are as they've been for two millenia, and he's apparently content with it, so other than dealing with S-K's who think it's a smart idea to try and kill him or turn themselves into another dragon he's really got no reason to go ahead and attack any of the others. Even when Sielba died he simply sacked her city - he didn't take it over and attempt to rule two cities, so that's apparently not on his agenda. And if he doesn't want to rule another city, why create more chaos (and increase his slave levy) by killing another Champion?
What do you mean by a "normal" dragon?
I'm differentiating between creatures that have the Dragon PrC and have cast at least one Dragon Metamorphosis spell (a "normal" dragon) and those that were created by Rajaat as Champions first, and subsequently turned into dragons by Borys/tied to the elemental vortices (and thus became Sorcerer-Monarchs). A character that becomes a dragon doesn't have the same capabilities as an S-K; they can't bestow powers to templars, they don't have additional Champion powers (being able to store life energy rather than just use it instantly for the casting of a spell), etc.
It is my belief that Myron was a test to see how well Manu could extinguish a Champion that wielded an artifact of Rajaat. Although there is the case of him being called an "idiot", but Sacha loves to ridicule anyone given half a reason, and he may have just mean't Myron didn't figure out his weapon (& magic?) wern't working in time.
"Test" or not, Hamanu *was* different than the other Champions, demonstratably has abilities different from them, and was present at every killing of a Champion by another Champion. So no arguments here, although that thought doesn't really help answer whether or not S&W are living or undead, and more importantly (as I'm proposing) that this answer is likely based on whether or not Hamanu is the only Champion-killing Champion or if any of the other Champions are capable of killing each other.
I highly doubt there has ever been anything preventing the champions from killing each other besides mutual fear. They are all extremely poweful, and they are all of aproximately the same power. If you want to live forever, it's generally not a great idea to pick fights with equals, who have as potent abilities, and as many tricks up their sleeves, as you do, unless it is absolutely necissary.
There was not just mutual fear of each other, but fear of Rajaat being released/returned. I believe what held them in check the most was the worry that without providing Borys the needed lives for his spells binding Rajaat in place, they'd all be very dead.
Still, even with that, it seemed to not matter to some. Sielba apparently ticked off Hamanu something fierce, and recieved the business end of his wrath. Dregoth was trying to be sly and get up to the final stage of the metamorphosis, and the others panicked and killed him. Kalid-Ma, apparently not learning from Dregoth tried to accelerate and complete the metamorphosis, and died for his troubles as well (with it being cited that Hamanu did the killing blow with the weapon Rajaat made and Hamanu had pried from Myron's dead hands). Kalak tried to accelerate through the process, and got stabbed by a giant magical toothpick of doom for considering it.
The only Champion that has been recorded as having killed any other Champion is Hamanu. To me, that seems somewhat significant. The only one (if memory serves) that is difficult to pin it on is Kalid-Ma, however I believe it does say that Hamanu had been part of the team dispatched to kill him as well. Kalak doesn't count, because he wasn't killed by another Champion, and the ones killed in the events of Prism Pentad also do not count, they were all either killed by Rajaat directly, or indirectly through something he made, or someone he remade during the events of the novels.
Also, every SK is an opportunist who would be more than willing to take advantage of any significant weakness shown by another King/Queen. Most confrontations between champions/SK's would result in a stalemate or a pyrrhic victory. It's not prudent for them to directly act against eachother.
It was only not prudent for them to act against each other for worry that Rajaat's spells of binding mught not get enough lives to power them, and then if Rajaat was freed, all of the rebellious Champions' lives would be forfeit. Self-preservation does wonders controlling one's nature.
I doubt even Rajaat had this power. It's one thing to grant immunity to an item you designed and built; it's an entirely different thing to grant immunity to the personal powers of another being.
I doubt Rajaat himself was immune to the magic, psionics, or weapons (that he did not create) of his champions. He just had greater might, the extent of which was unknown (and therefore much more fearsome) to his champions.
I want to say in the Prism Pentad, he is regarded as the "Father of Magic", and that either one of the Sorcerer-Kings, or Borys had claimed that Magic (arcane magic) was useless against Rajaat. To me, that would be ruled as an immunity to arcane magic. I'd also consider a possible instant counterspell-like effect to any arcane spell used against him in any manner.
As far as psionics... I'm not entirely certain he was a supreme power in that regard. I'd figure he's powerful, but not nearly at the authoritative level he is with arcane. Remember that it was a divine magical spell which trapped him at the end of CS, not an arcane one. Once he was back in the Hollow, then an arcane spell was used to bind that demiplane again (but not directly being used against him).
I would not be even remotely surprised, nor would I think it is a stretch of the imagination, that Rajaat could have set failsafes in his Champions to prevent them from being able to kill each other (Hamanu as an exception). Think about it... other than him, they are the most powerful arcane magic-wielding beings on Athas. They are also all evil, just like he is. Rajaat was no fool (insane yes, but not a fool), so he would have done what he felt was necessary to prevent his Champions from totally ruining his plans through petty bickering & infighting -- including preventing them from killing each other.
If Hamanu had the power to kill champions, but the other champions could not kill him, I see no reason why Hamanu would not have killed them all a long time ago.
I do like Abbey's take on that line of reasoning -- Hamanu feels himself a father figure over Urik, and he also seems incapable of controlling his metamorphosis into a Dragon. If he was made to be the Champion against Humans as well, then even though the Champions of Rajaat are something a bit more, it would stand to reason he might have some significant advantages going his way. Especially if Rajaat was planning on backstabbing all of his other Champions (Hamanu, being the only "later" Champion known, could have been made with a specific purpose, as a "final solution" for Rajaat). If Hamanu really is effectively a time-bomb, and scared of what he is becoming, he could be doing everything in his power to slow the process -- which including refraining from killing the other Champions.
I don't feel the champions have any more personal power than any other dragon of eqivalent level. The only thing sorcerer kings have got that other dragons don't are cities, armies, tax revenue, and the ability to grant templar magic.
I am going to disagree here. I think they were given advantage and ability to help them track down and eliminate all traces of the race they were assigned. I believe Rajaat wired them up with something special when he made them his Champions. The game material points to him making them his Champions, and then later Borys makes them into Dragons. So with Borys being responsible for getting them through the first stage development into Dragons (as per the Wanderer's Chronicle), then wha did Rajaat do when he made them his Champions? Well... he made them effectively immortal (ageless at the very least, or else they'd not be able to continue slaying their respective races), and other features that we at Athas.org had put in the Champion of Rajaat template.
The Sorcerer-Kings differ from other dragons because of their Champion of Rajaat template, and then they also have the ability to grant Templar spells. That is what makes them a bit tougher, and more of a superset of what a dragon is.
As stated in Dragon Kings, each stage of the metamorphosis is uncertain. Kalak might have died during the casting, even without any attack at all. I think it's quite reasonable to assume that having a spear thrown through one's chest would further weaken one's ability to withstand tremendous shock.
Which does not discredit anything I've personally said here
BTW, I like how our latest posts mirror each other. ;)
Xlorep: Yup, Hamanu was one of the three that killed Kalid-Ma; after Kalid-Ma completed his transformation he went insane, and it was Kalak, Borys and Hamanu that defeated him in an undescribed manner (AFAIK it's not described in detail anywhere). My guess is that Kalak, being the closest to Kalid-Ma, found out what was going on, panicked and called on Borys, who then called on Hamanu since they needed him to actually do the killing. The three of them then track down Kalid-Ma (not difficult I imagine, given that he's now a 50' long lizard destroying everything in his path), Borys uses his size to physically take on Kalid-Ma while Kalak uses magic and psionics to try and counteract anything that Kalid-Ma does, then Hamanu jumps in and performs the coup de grace.
In other threads on this forum, I've also put out the notion that Kalak somehow slipped off, behind the other two's backs, with Kalid-Ma's research notes on accelerating the metamorphosis, so he could craft something similar for himself later.
BTW, I like how our latest posts mirror each other. ;)
Yea, I noticed that after I submitted my response. When I first hit the response key, yours wasn't up yet (gotta love multi-tab web browsers).
In other threads on this forum, I've also put out the notion that Kalak somehow slipped off, behind the other two's backs, with Kalid-Ma's research notes on accelerating the metamorphosis, so he could craft something similar for himself later.
Hmmm good idea. It could explain why Kalak would have been the first to know about Kalid-Ma's transformation but somehow failed to notice it until after Waverly was already destroyed. "My agents in Waverly didn't respond to my summons and a scry on the area revealed the destruction, so I teleported over there to try and find Kalid-Ma; we were buddies, you know. Oh, you didn't know that? Oh well, we were, so I went over there and sure enough he was gone, but the footprints looked an awfully lot like yours, Borys, so that's when I called you."
Yeah, I noticed that after I submitted my response. When I first hit the response key, yours wasn't up yet (gotta love multi-tab web browsers).
Hehe yeah, when I first check the forums in the morning I end up with ~10 or so tabs open, and half of them I don't actually get to for an hour or two.
Hmmm good idea. It could explain why Kalak would have been the first to know about Kalid-Ma's transformation but somehow failed to notice it until after Waverly was already destroyed. "My agents in Waverly didn't respond to my summons and a scry on the area revealed the destruction, so I teleported over there to try and find Kalid-Ma; we were buddies, you know. Oh, you didn't know that? Oh well, we were, so I went over there and sure enough he was gone, but the footprints looked an awfully lot like yours, Borys, so that's when I called you.
I don't understand I thought Kalid-Ma was killed in Kalidnay?
Cheers for clearing up that "normal dragon" Dirk, and everything else you and Xlorepdarkhelm wrote is great.
EXCEPT we are taking over Sacha and Wyan thread with talk of SKs and battles, which is why I suggested and made a new thread -> Sorcere Kings Fight!
EXCEPT we are taking over Sacha and Wyan thread with talk of SKs and battles, which is why I suggested and made a new thread -> Sorcere Kings Fight!
Well, it is a point to be worked out, and then reintegrated into the discussion of Sacha and Wyan. The problem is: even if the non-Hamanu Champions of Rajaat potentially cannot kill each other directly, Hamanu was present at the revolt against Rajaat, thereby he could have potentially killed Sacha and Wyan, rendering the whole point moot on this point. As such, it is up in the air, I'll have to admit, as to if they are undead or not. Occam's Razor does lean towards them being undead (even if I'm not overly thrilled with the notion personally). As such, they would most likely, following that argument, undead wizard/psion heads with the Champion of Rajaat template applied. The extent of their powers would be modeled from that information then.
In other threads on this forum, I've also put out the notion that Kalak somehow slipped off, behind the other two's backs, with Kalid-Ma's research notes on accelerating the metamorphosis, so he could craft something similar for himself later.
This is certainly plausible.
I think it is likely Nibenay grabbed them because he is going slowly but surely with his metamorphosis, and Dregoth didn't drain his populous of their life for his transformation he did it slowly.
Which begs the question: Did some other SK grab Dregoth's research?
I think it is likely Nibenay grabbed them because he is going slowly but surely with his metamorphosis, and Dregoth didn't drain his populous of their life for his transformation he did it slowly.
I dunno. My personal theory is that Dregoth actually came up with the dragon metamorphosis spell. I think he found something in Giustenal that made him stop and work on it through the Cleansing Wars -- plus, he could have already been working along the lines of the dragon metamorphosis before that. I think that by the time of the rebellion against Rajaat, Dregoth was already advanced through a few of the stages of the process. Tack on his discovery of the planar gate, and if he had found a plane or two where time worked differently, he'd have more than enough time to get to the stage he is at, without ever needing to accelerate the transformation.
After all... if he was worried about the side-effects of complete transformation, especially at an accelerated rate... then he could have very well just used Borys as a guinea pig. Seeing what chaos Borys caused would have made him most likely begin to refine the spell series to ensure that he himself did not go through the same thing. To me, the greatest irony, and the biggest factor pointing at the absolute limited knowledge that the SK's have about the metamorphosis, was them killing Dregoth when he was working on casting the final stage -- when the rampage sets in much earler in the metamorphosis. The fact that there is no evidence or even legends to suggest Dregoth had done the same kind of damage that Borys did, would mean he probably figured out the way to avoid it -- potentially by just developing slowly through the stages, as opposed to accelerating through it "all at once".
I suppose someone could have taken his research notes... except that Dregoth's notes then would be an explanation as to why it must be taken slowly, and with caution, rather than all at once like Kalid-Ma and Kalak wanted.
The way it plays out in my head is like this:
They were all level 21 dragons, advanced to this level to make them immortal by Rajaat using the Pristine tower*, I believe dragon stage one was just a side effect, and he didn't know how to do it any other way. After all surely if he intended to despatch his champions at the end of the Cleansing Wars he wouldn't have made them able to progress to higher power levels(ie dragon stages).
Okay how long did the Cleansing Wars go on for 1000-2000 years? None of the Champions knew they were dragons, and although they might have been killing powerful "Good"** enemies not all of them would have been good and killing the same kind of enemies - usually weaker than you - wouldn't provide a huge XP resource. I think that when the Champions rebelled they were defeating Rajaat and he was killed by Borys(borys already killed Rkard super powerful Lawful Good guy= huge xp), dealing the final blow to Rajaat resulted in him metamorphosising into a level 22 stage dragon crippling him with pain.
The other Champions dealing with a now undead Rajaat - questioned him about what he did to Borys, threatening him with certain oblivion if he didn't fess up. Thats when he informed them of their Dragon status.
I just don't like how some history says the Champions forced Rajaat to transform Borys into the dragon - I mean you are going to let the first Sorcerer into the Steeple of Crystals alone - don't think there is room for 12 or so other champions to fit. If Rajaat was allowed to use his powers he could have just taken off, teleport or cast a super deadly spell. Athough I guess he knew he couldn't be killed and figured he would just bide his time and amuse them - redering one of the rebellers useless(metamorphosis pain/insanity not sure if he knew about the insanity).
*OOH ooh that begs the question was the Dark Lens and Steeple of Crystals already there before Rajaat, it makes sense for the Nature Masters to have used it with their powers since their skills were similar to The Way. I haven't seen any references to Rajaat making the Steeple of Crystals or the Dark Lens[do inform me if you are holding out on any info].
**refer to my other thread Sorcerer Kings Fight! for a detailed explanation.
NO No No!
The way it plays out in my head is like this:
I am hoping that you are joking about all of that. :P I guess, if it's your games, then so be it. But you aren't going to find much support in the setting for your ideas.
Please explain what you find objectionable about my idea - if it needs revising I will be happy to, thats the whole reason I am posting here.
Why?
Please explain what you find objectionable about my idea - if it needs revising I will be happy to, thats the whole reason I am posting here.
Sorry, I was not trying to insult you, it's just you made reference to a thread that you started, which when I glanced it over, and the title of the thread itself seemed to be tongue-in-cheek humor. Plus, the way you started off that post, I thought you were being tongue-in-cheek as well.
That said...
They were all level 21 dragons, advanced to this level to make them immortal by Rajaat using the Pristine tower*, I believe dragon stage one was just a side effect, and he didn't know how to do it any other way. After all surely if he intended to despatch his champions at the end of the Cleansing Wars he wouldn't have made them able to progress to higher power levels(ie dragon stages).
*OOH ooh that begs the question was the Dark Lens and Steeple of Crystals already there before Rajaat, it makes sense for the Nature Masters to have used it with their powers since their skills were similar to The Way. I haven't seen any references to Rajaat making the Steeple of Crystals or the Dark Lens[do inform me if you are holding out on any info].
The problem is... the game books don't agree with that. On several fronts. The materials, and the official timeline point to Borys being the one to initiate the dragon metamorphosis in all of the sorcerer-kings. It is pretty unsound reasoning that is used, based off of what is presented in the game materials, to assume that Rajaat made them into dragons when he made them his Champions. That said, it is the direction that Lynn Abbey was going with her novels. Of course, she also attributed the granting of templar spells at that time as well.
Also... the nature-masters did not have "skills similar to The Way". Tey had lifeshaping capabilities, which lifeshaped devices are nothing like arcane, divine, or psionic devices. They are more or less living creatures designed genetically for a specific task. The "Steeple of Crystals" is part of the Pristine Tower, which is a relic from the Blue Age and the Rhulisti. It is not inherently magical or psionic. It is something else. Rajaat more or less bastardized it to assist him in making his Champions, most likely.
Okay how long did the Cleansing Wars go on for 1000-2000 years? None of the Champions knew they were dragons, and although they might have been killing powerful "Good"** enemies not all of them would have been good and killing the same kind of enemies - usually weaker than you - wouldn't provide a huge XP resource. I think that when the Champions rebelled they were defeating Rajaat and he was killed by Borys(borys already killed Rkard super powerful Lawful Good guy= huge xp), dealing the final blow to Rajaat resulted in him metamorphosising into a level 22 stage dragon crippling him with pain.
**refer to my other thread Sorcerer Kings Fight! for a detailed explanation.
Your time is a bit off, I want to say the Cleansing Wars lasted closer to 3,000 - 5,000 years (if not longer). Yes, that means the sorcerer-kings are freaking old. You can't seriously be telling me that in the scope of 3k - 5k years, they'd never make enough experience to even achieve 1 level. You also are using the 2e levelling scheme when defining the dragons -- which means that they couldn't be taking levels in anything else following that mechanic (but they could with the 3/3.5e dragon rules we have on Athas.org). To claim that there would be no opponents at levels that the Champions could gain XP from, across all of the Tablelands, over a 3k - 5k year span, while wiping out species after species just seems intellectually dishonest.
Absolutely none of the materials for Dark Sun ever even remotely suggest that the sorcerer-kings ever killed Rajaat. In fact, the opposite is what is shown. They were incapable of killing Rajaat. So they had to devise a way to imprison and trap him, because even though they were able to catch him off-guard and overwhelm him, they couldn't kill him. That's where the Hollow comes in, that's why Borys became The Dragon, that's why there was the Dragon's Levy. It was all to keep Rajaat imprisoned.
The other Champions dealing with a now undead Rajaat - questioned him about what he did to Borys, threatening him with certain oblivion if he didn't fess up. Thats when he informed them of their Dragon status.
There's even less material even remotely suggesting that Rajaat is undead. Rajaat, while he was imprisoned, was still very much alive. When he got freed, he wasn't undead -- he was closer to being godlike, and still very much alive -- just significantly dimented. He doesn't hate life. He just hates what he sees as abominations plaguing the surface of Athas -- the Rebirth races and any other race that did not exist during the Blue Age. He really liked Halflings.
I just don't like how some history says the Champions forced Rajaat to transform Borys into the dragon - I mean you are going to let the first Sorcerer into the Steeple of Crystals alone - don't think there is room for 12 or so other champions to fit. If Rajaat was allowed to use his powers he could have just taken off, teleport or cast a super deadly spell. Athough I guess he knew he couldn't be killed and figured he would just bide his time and amuse them - redering one of the rebellers useless(metamorphosis pain/insanity not sure if he knew about the insanity).
Like I said before, I'm not big on that theory either. I see that the sorcerer-kings used each other, not forcing Rajaat to do their bidding (which is just silly).
I don't understand I thought Kalid-Ma was killed in Kalidnay?
Er yeah, Kalidnay not Waverly. Waverly is under silt.
Well, it is a point to be worked out, and then reintegrated into the discussion of Sacha and Wyan. The problem is: even if the non-Hamanu Champions of Rajaat potentially cannot kill each other directly, Hamanu was present at the revolt against Rajaat, thereby he could have potentially killed Sacha and Wyan, rendering the whole point moot on this point. As such, it is up in the air, I'll have to admit, as to if they are undead or not. Occam's Razor does lean towards them being undead (even if I'm not overly thrilled with the notion personally). As such, they would most likely, following that argument, undead wizard/psion heads with the Champion of Rajaat template applied. The extent of their powers would be modeled from that information then.
Heh, it didn't even occur to me that Hamanu was around when S&W were beheaded. *Sigh* I think you're probably right here, although - to argue in favor of them not being undead for a change - it's highly unlikely that S&W would have tried to free Rajaat at a time when more than, say, one or two other Champions were "in the area" (it'd have been suicide if they were all around), so just because Hamanu was present at the original rebellion doesn't mean he was still there when S&W tried to free Rajaat. From the "official" timeline:
Despite their power, the children of Rajaat cannot destroy his mortal remains. Instead, Gallard separates the First Sorcerer's essence from his physical form, placing each in a separate location. Aided by the power of the Dark Lens, Gallard creates the Ho llow, where he placed Rajaat's essence. Gallard then creates a cyst of enchanted stone called the Black Sphere in which he places Rajaat's substance. He then hides the Black Sphere in a location known only to him and Borys of Ebe.
Sacha and Wyan, who remained loyal to their master, attempted to breach the cyst before it is hidden away. Their plan is discovered and they are beheaded by Borys.
Through the use of the Dark Lens, Borys rewards the remaining Champions by beginning their transformations into sorcerer-kings. This process links each of them to living vortices, which allows them to grant their followers clerical spells.
The Champions realize that Rajaat's prison will not hold. Even segmented, Rajaat's power is supreme and he would one day be free. Hence, the Champions once again used the Dark Lens to transform Borys into the Dragon, whose power would keep Rajaat imprison ed for all time.
Borys's transformation causes him to become temporarily insane, beginning a century of rampages across the land. In the confusion, two dwarven knights named Jor'orsh and Sa'ram steal the Dark Lens. The remaining sorcerer-kings each claim a city of Athas a nd barricade it from the rampaging Dragon.
...so, given that, it may have gone down like this: Gallard traps Rajaat and says "okay guys, I'm going to go hide this thing away where no one can find it." Everyone else believes him, since they all fear Rajaat enough to not even contemplate that some of them might still be on Rajaat's side, so they all go their separate ways. S&W, being the traitors no one suspect, try and break Gallard's spells as he's leaving the Tower with the cyst, but they discover that his magic is a lot more potent than they thought, can't free Rajaat quickly enough, and so Gallard "calls" back Borys and maybe some of the others who proceed to defeat and behead the two. The rest of the timeline goes as discussed. If it went down like that, however - taking place over a couple days rather than an afternoon, with S&W striking at the most opportune time - then they most likely would have done so when Hamanu *wasn't* around; after all, he's the only known Champion-killer. And, once the cyst was damaged, all of the remaining Champions likely would have been freaked out enough by the thought of Rajaat becoming free already that having Hamanu "finish" S&W may not have even crossed their minds; they're so concentrated on figuring out what to do with Rajaat, and thus turning Borys into the Dragon, that no one says anything when Kalak shoves the two heads into his Bag O' Holdin'.
See? You don't have to give up on the idea that they're not undead yet, Xlorep. ;)
Your time is a bit off, I want to say the Cleansing Wars lasted closer to 3,000 - 5,000 years (if not longer). Yes, that means the sorcerer-kings are freaking old.
1,500 hundred years plus another 1,000 for the Preserver Jihad.
But still, everything you said in that post holds true.
1,500 hundred years plus another 1,000 for the Preserver Jihad.
But still, everything you said in that post holds true.
Ok.... I must have been calculating from the start of the Cleansing Wars to the present.
Ok.... I must have been calculating from the start of the Cleansing Wars to the present.
Yup, that'd put it at the 4500ish mark.
Sorry, I was not trying to insult you, it's just you made reference to a thread that you started, which when I glanced it over, and the title of the thread itself seemed to be tongue-in-cheek humor. Plus, the way you started off that post, I thought you were being tongue-in-cheek as well.
Okay I can understand that because of my jokes about dwarf hair in "Can silt burn" thread.
The materials, and the official timeline point to Borys being the one to initiate the dragon metamorphosis in all of the sorcerer-kings. It is pretty unsound reasoning that is used, based off of what is presented in the game materials, to assume that Rajaat made them into dragons when he made them his Champions.
Yes I like it better that Borys rewarded the Champions with Dragon metamorphosis, but how did he learn about it?
The sorcerer-kings are freaking old. You can't seriously be telling me that in the scope of the cleansing war years, they'd never make enough experience to even achieve 1 level.
Thanks for clearing up my squewed view.
Er yeah, Kalidnay not Waverly. Waverly is under silt.
No the silt receded, its Ebb that is still covered.
Xlorepdarkhelm is the top dog, and bosses(corrects) me around then I boss Dirk around lol pack heirachy.
Since it was Borys who beheaded Sacha and Wyan, it is quite possible that they are not undead. I think that a credible argument can be made that Hammanu alone is the only SM who can kill another SM, which would mean that Sacha and Wyan are actually still alive. (Although Occeam's Razor is important in real life, sometimes it doesn't create the most interesting fantasy role-playing senarios...)
If Sacha and Wyan are still alive, this creates some interesting prospects for their bodies. What happened to their bodies? Were they separated and trapped like Rajaat's essence? Are they wandering around, looking for their heads? Would they be artifact-level things like the Hand / Eye of Vecna?
Next, what happened to the Armies of Sacha and Wyan? While the certainly could have disbanded, it seems like a more interesting prospect to consider that some of their followers survive as a sort of secret society in order to carry out their master's will. Perhaps there is an "inner chamber" within one of the Veiled Alliances which is truly loyal to either Sacha or Wyan.
Your thoughts?
BTW: Xlorep, excellent job in breaking down the inconsistencies between Borys's Son's perspective and the official timeline.
itf
Yes I like it better that Borys rewarded the Champions with Dragon metamorphosis, but how did he learn about it?
My particular take (which I explained above), I think that Dregoth showed him. I think that Hamanu discovered something's fishy with Rajaat's plan, and word sort of spread. They could have all realized that trapping Rajaat would be problematic, and Dregoth could have clued Borys in on a possible solution to the problem.
If we go with a strict reading of the official timeline, Sacha and Wyan are beheaded before the SM's go through the Dragon metamorphasis.
If there were any time for xlorepdarkhelm to reply with his inexhaustable Tome of Correct Knowledge...
Therefore Abbey's contention that Kalak wasn't a "true" Soceror-King
No not Abby, I believe Hamanu mentions Kalak as the pretender champion(Crimson Legion novel). Andropinis also calls Kalak a weakling/fool - something to that effect(The Obsidian Oracle novel).
Occeam's Razor is important in real life
What the hell is that?!
Next, what happened to the Armies of Sacha and Wyan?
Ever heard of Rajaats prison, well I imagine after S&W were busted, they used the armies for further strengthening of his prison - it had to be moved to a new secret location.
I am rather sad that we have concluded Hamanu can kill another Champion/SK, because I had always wanted, him to have Sielba's head in one of his palace chambers.
My particular take (which I explained above), I think that Dregoth showed him. I think that Hamanu discovered something's fishy with Rajaat's plan, and word sort of spread. They could have all realized that trapping Rajaat would be problematic, and Dregoth could have clued Borys in on a possible solution to the problem.
Oh dear - that raises the question - was Dregoth in the metamorphosis stages already?
For example, when you come back home and find that your magazine fell off the edge of the coffee table, it is more than likely that a gust of wind blew it open and the unbalanced book then fell off the table.
Occam's Razor is a philosophical principle used to rule out more complicated explanations (giant book-hating cockroaches / spontaneous leviation) until the simpliest explanations have been excluded.
BTW, Exlorep, I really like your idea about Dregoth developing the dragon metamorphasis spell. It makes perfect sense, it accounts for Dregoth's Cleansing Wars depictions as a Dragon, and it also makes our Dark Sun narrative that much more interesting...
itf
Originally Posted by inix toenail filth
Occeam's Razor is important in real life
What the hell is that?!
QUOTE]
from wikipedia:
Occam's razor (also spelled Ockham's razor) is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar William of Ockham. Originally a tenet of the reductionist philosophy of nominalism, it is more often taken today as a heuristic maxim that advises economy, parsimony, or simplicity in scientific theories. Occam's razor states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating (or "shaving off", like a razor shaves off unneccessary hair) those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae (law of succinctness):
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem,
which translates to:
entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.
It is the quote in my signature!
to inix toenail filth
S&W are the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern of Athas!
I LOVE the idea of the headless bodies being still around, what if the heads were only a mokery of the real S&W, just a sik joke made at them? (comes to mind what happens to the heads of beasthheaded giants...)
If there were any time for xlorepdarkhelm to reply with his inexhaustable Tome of Correct Knowledge...
Rofl. I do get it wrong as well, and have my own take on Athas which doesn't necessarily blend perfectly with the books...
Oh dear - that raises the question - was Dregoth in the metamorphosis stages already?
Actually, in my take on things, yes. Borys used the Dark Lens on him, it really didn't do anything (other than attract a living vortex which became fused to Dregoth all the same). I'm not entirely certain if Dregoth even told Borys he was already developing as a dragon.
BTW, Exlorep, I really like your idea about Dregoth developing the dragon metamorphasis spell. It makes perfect sense, it accounts for Dregoth's Cleansing Wars depictions as a Dragon, and it also makes our Dark Sun narrative that much more interesting...
For me, it also means he has a deeper understanding about the dragon metamorphosis process, and then could have used that knowledge to help design the Dray.
Occeam's Razor is important in real life
What the hell is that?!Occam's razor (also spelled Ockham's razor) is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar William of Ockham. Originally a tenet of the reductionist philosophy of nominalism, it is more often taken today as a heuristic maxim that advises economy, parsimony, or simplicity in scientific theories. Occam's razor states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating (or "shaving off", like a razor shaves off unneccessary hair) those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae (law of succinctness):
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem,
which translates to:
entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.
Or, as I usually remember it -- "the simplest explanation is probably true."
No the silt receded, its Ebb that is still covered.
Xlorepdarkhelm is the top dog, and bosses(corrects) me around then I boss Dirk around lol pack heirachy.
That'd be "Ebe." And true, the silt eventually receded away from Waverly, but it was covered in silt.
And watch the 'heirarchy' comment, Mr. I Just Joined The Boards Within The Last 9 Days. Xlorep may be the alpha, but my fangs are bigger than yours. *growl*
160th King's Age (-2,310)
-Guthay's Defiance
Kalak, 2nd Champion of Rajaat kills the last of the ogres of Athas.
(In reality, Irikos wiped out the Ogres, Kalak was his lieutenant, killing the last ogre after being severly wounded by Irikos)
164th King's Age (2,002)
Desert Vengeance
Rkard, the last dwarven king of Kemalok, is slain by Borys of Ebe in mortal combat-though Borys himself is gravely injured. The Champion's attendants spirit him from the battlefield leaving his sword, the Scourge, still buried in the dwarf's chest. Before he can retrieve the sword, Hamanu tells Borys of Rajaat's true plans for Athas
Becoming aware that Rajaat intends to wipe out all races except the halflings, Borys leads the Champions in a rebellion against their master-from which they emerged victorious. Rajaat's halfling servants are banished to the Black as punishment for siding with the War-Bringer
(This includes Sacha and Wyan, rebelling against Rajaat)
Despite their power, the children of Rajaat cannot destroy his mortal remains. Instead, Gallard separates the First Sorcerer's essence from his physical form, placing each in a separate location. Aided by the power of the Dark Lens, Gallard creates the Ho llow, where he placed Rajaat's essence. Gallard then creates a cyst of enchanted stone called the Black Sphere in which he places Rajaat's substance. He then hides the Black Sphere in a location known only to him and Borys of Ebe.
(Once Sacha and Wyan realize that Rajaat can’t be killed each independently decides to change sides and once again work for Rajaat, they begin to work together once they find each other following Gallard and Borys to the hiding place of the Black Sphere)
Sacha and Wyan, who remained loyal to their master, attempted to breach the cyst before it is hidden away. Their plan is discovered and they are beheaded by Borys.
(Thinking combined they can take Gallard and Borys by surprise they attack but are beaten. Both are beheaded by Borys to limit their power until he can call upon Hamanu to destroy them both but the heads manage to escape when Rajaat’s prison, still newly created begins to crack)
Through the use of the Dark Lens, Borys rewards the remaining Champions by beginning their transformations into sorcerer-kings. This process links each of them to living vortices, which allows them to grant their followers clerical spells.
(Dregoth realizes that the Champions need more power to keep Rajaat locked away and tells Borys of his dragon metamorphosis research, inadvertently, Sacha and Wyan, connected to the Dark Lens by Rajaat during their transformation into Champions, are also linked to the vortices)
The Champions realize that Rajaat's prison will not hold. Even segmented, Rajaat's power is supreme and he would one day be free. Hence, the Champions once again used the Dark Lens to transform Borys into the Dragon, whose power would keep Rajaat imprisoned for all time.
(Needing even more power to hold Rajaat, the Champions agree to transform Borys into the ultimate guardian)
Borys's transformation causes him to become temporarily insane, beginning a century of rampages across the land. In the confusion, two dwarven knights named Jor'orsh and Sa'ram steal the Dark Lens. The remaining sorcerer-kings each claim a city of Athas and barricade it from the rampaging Dragon.
(Kalak, a powerful defiler and psionicist takes control of Tyr with the help of Wyan and Sacha, part of a deal to combine their powers for defense against the Dragon, the other Champions are unaware of the help Kalak is receiving)
-Friend's Fury
Lead by Abalach-Re of Raam, the sorcerer-kings storm Guistenal and kill Dregoth, Ravager of Giants just before he is to become a 30th-level Dragon. The battle destroys the city, the land, and most of its population. Afterwards, Hamanu throws the Scorcher into the Silt Sea.
(Hamanu is pressured by the others who were afraid they would be killed next, Hamanu knew the Scorcher was only a tool, he was what killed a Champion, Borys the only other Champion who knows Hamanu’s secret is still on a rampage)
With the aid of his high templar Mon Adderath, Dregoth is returned to life as an undead dragon king. The surviving populace is gathered soon after, and construction of New Guistenal begins.
165th King's Age (-1,925)
-Wind's Defiance
Borys emerges from his insanity and learns Rajaat's prison is on the verge of collapse. Soon after he collects a levy of 1,000 slaves from each sorcerer-king, using their lifeforce to reseal the First Sorcerer's prison on a yearly basis.
160th King's Age (-2,310)
-Guthay's Defiance
Kalak, 2nd Champion of Rajaat kills the last of the ogres of Athas.
(In reality, Irikos wiped out the Ogres, Kalak was his lieutenant, killing the last ogre after being severly wounded by Irikos)
This sounds like Kalak was severly wounded by Irikos? But I think you mean the Last Ogre Killed Irikos and Irikos severely wounded him, then Kalak finished the job.
160th King's Age - Mountain's Vengeance (Y73) / -2238FY
¸ The warlord Irikos, the left hand of Rajaat, sacks the city of Bodach, but is killed at the conclusion of the battle. His sword (a creation of Rajaat's), the Silencer, is lost for 2,000 years.
Doesn't say Irikos was after the Ogres or completed the cleansing: can you point me to some info where it says your version of evens as I would love to grab it.
Sacha and Wyan, who remained loyal to their master, attempted to breach the cyst before it is hidden away. Their plan is discovered and they are beheaded by Borys.
I disagree I believe this happened after their dragon metamorphosis reward. Because that is when they all got linked with the Vortices.(Just my opinion)
(Dregoth realizes that the Champions need more power to keep Rajaat locked away and tells Borys of his dragon metamorphosis research, inadvertently, Sacha and Wyan, connected to the Dark Lens by Rajaat during their transformation into Champions, are also linked to the vortices)
Because this connected to the Dark Lens stuff sounds odd, why would they be connected to it, doesn't that mean they would sense if it was being stolen by Jo'orsh & Sa'ram, even though Borys the Dragon was insane(for power - he still had enough logic not to risk his life fool hardily) would have gone to the Lens rescue, and the SKs came out to take down Dregoth why wouldn't they venture out to save the most powerful artifact too? It just doesn't fit with me - there is no reason why everything would not happened quickly: subdue Rajaat and put him in the hollow, reward champions, then go off and hide Rajaats new prison. Again just my thoughts[I know it goes against the timeline a bit but not much
just one line back a year].Ooh ohh Which brings up the thought that Yoram(Irikos champion), could have been destroyed by Borys, location between Tyr and Unik in the wastelands - the city mentioned in The Darkness Before the Dawn novel. He could have also killed other SK's but this is stretching it a bit because that is not mentioned in the Timeline, but not much is mentioned during Borys rampaging years anyway dregoth killed, lens stolen, SKs take a city each, Yoram could have been destroyed before a SK got(fortified) to it - making them hide away and barricade themselves.
Needing even more power to hold Rajaat, the Champions agree to transform Borys into the ultimate guardian.
Nice touch, I like that - giving an exact reason why they transformed him. Dregoth may also have wanted to see what he was in for - with the next transformations~final stage appearance.
Borys's transformation causes him to become temporarily insane, beginning a century of rampages across the land. In the confusion, two dwarven knights named Jor'orsh and Sa'ram steal the Dark Lens. The remaining sorcerer-kings each claim a city of Athas and barricade it from the rampaging Dragon.
(Kalak, a powerful defiler and psionicist takes control of Tyr with the help of Wyan and Sacha, part of a deal to combine their powers for defense against the Dragon, the other Champions are unaware of the help Kalak is receiving)
That sounds great although they could have been doing it before the rebellion against Rajaat, Tyr was probably a large rich/powerful city and Rajaat would have liked control and take its riches for themselves. It may have even been hiding a few Ogres, and by killing the last that is how Kalak got a chamion titile after his name. Just some thoughts.
-Friend's Fury
Lead by Abalach-Re of Raam, the sorcerer-kings storm Guistenal and kill Dregoth, Ravager of Giants just before he is to become a 30th-level Dragon. The battle destroys the city, the land, and most of its population. Afterwards, Hamanu throws the Scorcher into the Silt Sea.
(Hamanu is pressured by the others who were afraid they would be killed next, Hamanu knew the Scorcher was only a tool, he was what killed a Champion, Borys the only other Champion who knows Hamanu’s secret is still on a rampage)
I believe Hamanu was there just because he lived close.
This is supported by references in the Timeline, the history section of Preservers & Defilers, and the Revised Box, and by a mention of a defiler warlord by the name of Merek the Wrong, in the Dragon Crown adventure, who answered to Hamanu and who's job was to destroy the order of the Wind Mages. Nowhere do we have indications that one Champion was subserviant to another, so I'm strongly inclined to thinking this Merek, as well as - originally - Myron and Irikos, were defiler warlords, that is, powerful individuals leading Rajaat's armies from long before the coming of the Champions and even beyond it (in the case of Merek, who served under Hamanu). How did they stay alive this long? Someone developped an immortality formula, one that Dregoth (as said in City by the Silt Sea) knew and who applied it to his high templar. Here I presume this process is a simple epic matter to invent, or failing that then the more worthy warlords can be bestowed immortality by Rajaat as recompense for their loyalty and skill. (In any case, ever-prolonged or rejuvenated life is a simple matter of casting 9th-level spells in DS, since the setting has several ways for a wizard to stay alive.)
With this conclusion in mind, which garnered support last time I mentionned it IIRC, I have come to think that Rajaat first had a bunch of relatively mundane but high-powered defiler warlords to lead his armies in the preserver jihad, and that later he created his Champions, taking some of them from the ranks of those defiler warlords that managed to survive the wars and fitted the bill of what Rajaat thought would make a suitable Champion.
With this conclusion in mind, which garnered support last time I mentionned it IIRC, I have come to think that Rajaat first had a bunch of relatively mundane but high-powered defiler warlords to lead his armies in the preserver jihad, and that later he created his Champions, taking some of them from the ranks of those defiler warlords that managed to survive the wars and fitted the bill of what Rajaat thought would make a suitable Champion.
Although I'm against Irikos being a Champion, as it leads to the Kalak/Irikos problem, I otherwise am one of those who agree with you on this. IMO most of the Champions, if not all of them, started off as defiler-psionicists that "proved themselves" during the Jihad and were selected for Rajaat's real goal of wiping out the New Races. In essence, the Jihad was Rajaat's way of determining who had the power, motivation, greed, intelligence and complete lack of morals to effectively commit genocide on a worldwide scale. In the case of Irikos, my opinion has been that he had motivation and loyalty to Rajaat, but it was obvious to Rajaat that he wasn't smart enough to perpetrate a millenia-long war (as demonstrated by Irikos getting himself killed sacking a city). Perhaps Myron was Rajaat's "favorite" or something, good enough that Rajaat overlooked many of his mistakes until eventually, after Myron had repeatedly failed at being a successful Champion, Rajaat got fed up and had him executed. A "cut your losses" situation.
The scope of the preserver jihad and the cleansing wars would make hundreds, if not thousands, of generals necissary. Fifteen champions, commanding fifteen armes would be insufficent. Clearly they were an extremely potent vanguard, but they could not have been everywhere at once. The champions obviously had lieutenants. It stands to reason that Rajaat would have more than just his Champions reporting to him and taking orders from him.
Maybe Irikos was just a skilled and loyal general (of whatever class), not a mighty psionicist/defiler (as all the champions were; one of the reasons I'm inclined to think that champion=dragon, and that Rajaat chose his champions becasue they were able to take the first stage of metamorphosis).
I just remembered my (old) explaination for this, which I posted on some other, somewhat related thread (I think it was one of the "was Kalak a real champion?" threads started up within the last couple months)...and it was basically that. I think my idea was something along the lines of Irikos not having been a psion/wizard, as you said, and at that time Rajaat hadn't fully developed his "Champion" spell nor had he fully thought out the Cleansing Wars, and so he didn't know what the "requirements" were going to be. Thus, when he finally figures out how the CW will go, he realizes that Irikos doesn't fit the bill (not a psionicist/defiler) and so has to pass him up for Champion-hood.
The Champion=dragon issue has been debated as well, and although it continues to this day there seems to be more reason to believe that this is *not* the case (i.e. "becoming a Champion" didn't actually involve becoming a dragon); IIRC that's why athas.org went with the Champion of Rajaat template in addition to the dragon PrC/metamorphosis, as it was necessary to have both in order to make the given history fit correctly.
but...if one considers that Myron and Irikos were Rajaat's left and right hand lieutenants during the preserver jihad (i.e. centuries before the Champions were created), then its possible to imagine that Rajaat had trained/recruited a number of powerful "defiler warlords", as they're named, and that some of them got artifact swords and some of them later were turned into Champions...
that's the approach I've always taken. It really does seem the most fitting, IMO, although many of the others on athas.org have disagreed with me.
Maybe Irikos was just a skilled and loyal general (of whatever class), not a mighty psionicist/defiler (as all the champions were.
at that time Rajaat hadn't fully developed his "Champion" spell nor had he fully thought out the Cleansing Wars, and so he didn't know what the "requirements" were going to be. Thus, when he finally figures out how the CW will go, he realizes that Irikos doesn't fit the bill (not a psionicist/defiler) and so has to pass him up for Champion-hood.
Yes love it, he could have been one of the first for champion processes but because he was more melee, is the reason he got killed easier than the other champions.
Also (I'm going on a limb here)Myron could have been part of the Hamanu process to get rid of the Champions, and Hamanu not liking it or fearing that Myron would be the one to finish him in the end - took him out first.
The scope of the preserver jihad and the cleansing wars would make hundreds, if not thousands, of generals necissary. Fifteen champions, commanding fifteen armes would be insufficent.
As in any war there would be mundane generals, genuine warrior or fighter individuals. Troops would not be composed of defilers, but rather of warriors and fighters with abnormally high numbers of defiler support troops.
On the other end, while Hamanu fought the trolls Merek worked for him eradicating the Wind Mages hundreds of miles away in the Ring of Fire. Eradicating wizards, not trolls, and eradicating wizards while the Cleansing Wars raged....which shows that the Preserver Jihad perdured for some time after the start of the Cleansing Wars, and that the surviving defiler warlords were assigned by Rajaat to work under the orders of Champions, with whom they carried on their functions or acquired new ones.
For some defiler warlords, I imagine, they continued on fighting the Jihad, while for others they assisted the Champions with cleansing on a larger front.
Me and Methvezem created a few additional defiler warlords for the background histories of the various magic items we created - Merovech, Amen Thal, Vaque, and Setare. Amen Thal served under Uyness during the wars, and Merovech under the Slayer of Elves. All four are considered deceased, albeit a DM can create an adventure centered around liberating an imprisonned warlord, or one in stasis, or resurrect one. Far less deadly but just as colorful as bringing back a Champion ;)
that's the approach I've always taken. It really does seem the most fitting, IMO, although many of the others on athas.org have disagreed with me.
One of the supporting elements is located, IIRC, in the history section of Defilers & Preservers: its mentionned that what signaled the start of the Cleansing Wars period was the sun turning darker and darker as each Champion was created (a good indicator they were not all created at the same time, btw)...which to me indicates that Irikos and Myron, albeit they had the Scorcher and Silencer, were not Champions during the Jihad because there would have been a darkening of the sun and that such an event is the stapple of the Wars and the implementation of the Champion creation process.
Putting two and two together, and holding as sacrosaint the idea that what all history sections and timelines say about when the Champions were first created is true, then it fitts.
The Champion=dragon issue has been debated as well, and although it continues to this day there seems to be more reason to believe that this is *not* the case (i.e. "becoming a Champion" didn't actually involve becoming a dragon); IIRC that's why athas.org went with the Champion of Rajaat template in addition to the dragon PrC/metamorphosis, as it was necessary to have both in order to make the given history fit correctly.
After reading the Champion of Rajaat template again, I find the powers granted to be rather outlandish. Except in the case of Borys (The Dragon of Tyr), none of the champions/sorcerer kings really depict any of the abilities in the template that could not easily be granted by mundane psionics/magic, or status as dragons. However, I have mentioned that before.
One thing that had slipped my notice for a while was brought to my attention again, by mention of Merek.
In the second book of the adventure Dragon's Crown, the preserver ghost Haakar describes the bit of defiler magic he attempted to cast to make himself powerful enough to defeat Merek. This is clearly the Defiler Metamorphosis spell. Also, the event clearly preceeds the Champion's betrayal, and Haakar's background entry states that "During the rise of the defilers, he discovered their means of power amplification", then it goes on to mention his attempt at transformation. This strongly suggest that these events took place shortly after the beginning of the cleansing war, and not long after the creation of the original champions.
After reading the Champion of Rajaat template again, I find the powers granted to be rather outlandish. Except in the case of Borys (The Dragon of Tyr), none of the champions/sorcerer kings really depict any of the abilities in the template that could not easily be granted by mundane psionics/magic, or status as dragons. However, I have mentioned that before.
Wanderer's Chronicle specifically states that the Champion transformation made them immortal as well as providing them with the ability to draw magical energy from living creatures. Although this sounds like dragon magic, it's not until the betrayal that the Champions were, historically, turned into dragons (the book says 'dragon-kings' but it's the first use of the term 'dragon' so it suffices). So yes, I agree that you don't have to go with the whole "Champions are that much cooler" aspect, but they are different than a normal dragon and *not* dragons (at least, most of them aren't during the time of the Cleansing Wars...kinda hard to teach the Champions about the metamorphosis if they've already started, after all).
In the second book of the adventure Dragon's Crown, the preserver ghost Haakar describes the bit of defiler magic he attempted to cast to make himself powerful enough to defeat Merek. This is clearly the Defiler Metamorphosis spell. Also, the event clearly preceeds the Champion's betrayal, and Haakar's background entry states that "During the rise of the defilers, he discovered their means of power amplification", then it goes on to mention his attempt at transformation. This strongly suggest that these events took place shortly after the beginning of the cleansing war, and not long after the creation of the original champions.
History goes like this:
1) Rajaat teaches magic in general.
2) Rajaat teaches a select few how to defile, and decides that humans are the best at it (well, magic in general).
3) Rajaat starts formulating his plans for the Cleansing Wars. At about the same time he starts the millenium-long war against the preservers.
4) Towards the end of the preserver war, Rajaat stops teaching defiling magic in general and instead focuses on the 15 students that best meet his needs for the CW. These people are turned into the Champions, darkening the sun in the process.
5) Sometime around the start of the CW the preserver wars end, the preservers either dead or in hiding. It's not specified if this occurred before the CW started or soon afterwards.
As far as Dragon's Crown goes, I just read the bit you're talking about and sure enough, it explains the dragon metamorphosis spell. Even if this had occurred right at the end of the preserver war, so say 200ish years after the CW started, it still doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Champions=dragons; there have been many, many threads pointing out that Borys had to learn the dragon metamorphosis spell from someone (or at the very least had to have created it) and others that talk about Dregoth having been a dragon during the wars and possibly even before (say, during the preserver jihad). So just because someone had access to the dragon metamorphosis spell 1000 years after defilers first came out of the woodwork doesn't have to equate to the Champions themselves being dragons; it just means that the spells were around at the time, and apparently some of the more powerful defilers had used them.
On the other hand, Dragon's Crown also mentions that Haakar "knows of Hamanu and will not take kindly to anyone cooperating with the sorcerer-king"; it wasn't for a millenium after Haakar died that Hamanu replaced Myron, and up until then his name was Manu. Additionally, Dragon's Crown was written 2 years before the Revised Setting, and (based on the TSR product number) right after the 4th and 5th Prism Pentad novels (and all within several months of each other; Obsidian Oracle was printed in June, Cerulean Storm in September, and Dragon's Crown is copyrighted later that same year...), so whatever is said in it doesn't necessarily jive with the "real" history as set by later books. Again, to refer back to previous discussions, it has been pointed out that in general later books take precedence over earlier ones in regards to "figuring out consistencies," and since the Revised-setting history is based on the events from the Prism Pentad, as well as books normally having been written months before their release, I wouldn't be surprised if the writers of Dragon's Crown hadn't even seen the Obsidian Oracle, let alone Cerulean Storm, when they wrote that bit into the adventure. So, if anything, this little piece of info should probably be discarded as "bad information" rather than used to justify the idea that Champions = dragons.
Because this connected to the Dark Lens stuff sounds odd, why would they be connected to it
I dislike it when people try to make the Dark Lens out to permanently linked to the SKs. I've even read posts where they've said that Templar spells are actually granted by a connection to the Dark Lens (As if the Elemental Vortexes don't exist). It's a TOOL, not an infection. It does its job and then it's done, no lingering connection.
were not Champions during the Jihad because there would have been a darkening of the sun and that such an event is the stapple of the Wars and the implementation of the Champion creation process.
Ooh so if Rajaat kept draining the sun then the world would get F**T up pretty quickly.
In the second book of the adventure Dragon's Crown, the preserver ghost Haakar describes the bit of defiler magic he attempted to cast to make himself powerful enough to defeat Merek. This is clearly the Defiler Metamorphosis spell. Also, the event clearly preceeds the Champion's betrayal, and Haakar's background entry states that "During the rise of the defilers, he discovered their means of power amplification", then it goes on to mention his attempt at transformation. This strongly suggest that these events took place shortly after the beginning of the cleansing war, and not long after the creation of the original champions.
Ahhh this is driving me insane, is there no way out of the nconsistenciesiedieisieisieisie%/ Dirk00001 our saviour from the madness!
I dislike it when people try to make the Dark Lens out to permanently linked to the SKs. I've even read posts where they've said that Templar spells are actually granted by a connection to the Dark Lens (As if the Elemental Vortexes don't exist). It's a TOOL, not an infection. It does its job and then it's done, no lingering connection.
Don't steal my quote grab IMAGE(grrr.gif) Zmaj's text and bash him with it!
Ooh ohh Which brings up the thought that Yoram(Irikos champion), could have been destroyed by Borys, location between Tyr and Unik in the wastelands - the city mentioned in The Darkness Before the Dawn novel. He could have also killed other SK's but this is stretching it a bit because that is not mentioned in the Timeline, but not much is mentioned during Borys rampaging years anyway dregoth killed, lens stolen, SKs take a city each, Yoram could have been destroyed before a SK got(fortified) to it - making them hide away and barricade themselves.
Uh oh. I think I am mistaken that city might have a name I will check and post here when I get home to my novels. Besides it would be nice for Yoram to be another outlying city like Arala in Brian's maps.
I dislike it when people try to make the Dark Lens out to permanently linked to the SKs. I've even read posts where they've said that Templar spells are actually granted by a connection to the Dark Lens (As if the Elemental Vortexes don't exist). It's a TOOL, not an infection. It does its job and then it's done, no lingering connection.
Its not a matter of liking, its a matter of it being from the novel Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, by Abbey. Its an alternative explanation to how the templars get their spells, etc etc.
In the second book of the adventure Dragon's Crown, the preserver ghost Haakar describes the bit of defiler magic he attempted to cast to make himself powerful enough to defeat Merek. This is clearly the Defiler Metamorphosis spell. Also, the event clearly preceeds the Champion's betrayal, and Haakar's background entry states that "During the rise of the defilers, he discovered their means of power amplification", then it goes on to mention his attempt at transformation. This strongly suggest that these events took place shortly after the beginning of the cleansing war, and not long after the creation of the original champions.
Hamanu became a Champion late in the war, I think something like between five hundred to a thousand years after the Cleansing Wars started....yet Merek was working for Hamanu. To this I conclude that its kinda normal for Haakar to be getting glimpses of a new process only the Champions have.
You may decide that this process ought to be the dragon metamorphosis, but it can also be the Champion creation process. In any case, Haakaar had lots of decades to study this new process of magic that the Champions were boasting, and in any case we don't actually know what he attempted to transform himself into. It might not have been the dragon process, or even an attempt at becoming a Champion, it could have been a new process he designed and with which he believed he could wield the power of the Champions that were - all over the world - attacking the holdings of the Wind Mages (i.e. Hakaar, as part of a vast group of wizards, had access to more than just Merek to base his research on).
Uh oh. I think I am mistaken that city might have a name I will check and post here when I get home to my novels. Besides it would be nice to have another outlying city like Arala in Brian's maps.
That city is unrelated to the Champions...it dates from what in athas.org speak we'd call an early "Green Age" city...but the author of the novel seemed unaware of many of the specific details of the setting, so he screwed up on that. Its not exactly a Green Age city...its...ahh ghaa!
Hamanu became a Champion late in the war, I think something like between five hundred to a thousand years after the Cleansing Wars started....yet Merek was working for Hamanu. To this I conclude that its kinda normal for Haakar to be getting glimpses of a new process only the Champions have.
The timeline I'm looking at indicates Hamanu became a champion very near the end of the cleansing wars. This was a big war; the chain of command would have been quite deep. Merek could easily have been working for Hamanu well prior to Hamanu becoming a champion, and Hamanu could have been working for Myron. It's logical that one of Myron's subordinates would be chosen to replace him when he faltered.
You may decide that this process ought to be the dragon metamorphosis, but it can also be the Champion creation process. In any case, Haakaar had lots of decades to study this new process of magic that the Champions were boasting, and in any case we don't actually know what he attempted to transform himself into. It might not have been the dragon process, or even an attempt at becoming a Champion, it could have been a new process he designed and with which he believed he could wield the power of the Champions that were - all over the world - attacking the holdings of the Wind Mages (i.e. Hakaar, as part of a vast group of wizards, had access to more than just Merek to base his research on).
Haakar's description of this trasformation fits the Defiler Metamophosis spell exactly.
I don't think Haakar based his research on Merek at all. I doubt Merek, or even Hamanu, had access to a copy of Defiler Metamorphosis, at this point.
Yeah it could be something else, but that would just add more layers and complexity for nothing. I don't think their is any need, at all, for a separate champion template, prestige class, transformation process, or the like. As far as I am concerned, "Champion" is simply a title, bestowed on those students of Rajaat chosen to become dragons and undo the rebirth.
On the other hand, Dragon's Crown also mentions that Haakar "knows of Hamanu and will not take kindly to anyone cooperating with the sorcerer-king"; it wasn't for a millenium after Haakar died that Hamanu replaced Myron, and up until then his name was Manu.
I doubt Haakar was utterly stagnant for all those years after his death. He probably had some knowledge of the happenings in the world around him. He was still clearly intelegent and free-willed.
Additionally, Dragon's Crown was written 2 years before the Revised Setting, and (based on the TSR product number) right after the 4th and 5th Prism Pentad novels (and all within several months of each other; Obsidian Oracle was printed in June, Cerulean Storm in September, and Dragon's Crown is copyrighted later that same year...), so whatever is said in it doesn't necessarily jive with the "real" history as set by later books.
I don't really see any direct contradictions between the Prism Pentad and what is mentioned in Dragon's Crown.
There are inconsistencies all over the game products, so I'm taking the path of least resistance, unless something clearly, and strongly, contradicts it.
Yeah it could be something else, but that would just add more layers and complexity for nothing. I don't think their is any need, at all, for a separate champion template, prestige class, transformation process, or the like. As far as I am concerned, "Champion" is simply a title, bestowed on those students of Rajaat chosen to become dragons and undo the rebirth.
...except that, as I pointed out, Wanderer's Chronicle specifically states 1) Rajaat "created" the Champions (not "named them") and bestowed additional powers upon them (specifically the ability to draw life energy), which caused the sun to grow darker - No dragon metamorphosis spell does that, so *something* extremely powerful had to be involved; 2) the transformation into Champions made them immortal, and 3) Borys made them dragons after the rebellion. If someone can find a later product (...maybe Preservers & Defilers?) that says otherwise then great, definitely correct me on this, but AFAIK the WC makes it pretty clear that "becoming a Champion" involved a magical transformation on par with the those transformations performed during the Rebirth; I see no other explaination for how Rajaat's creation of the Champions would have changed the color of the sun - he used the Pristine Tower to cast powerful spells on the Champions in a manner that was inconsistent with the dragon metamorphosis.
I doubt Haakar was utterly stagnant for all those years after his death. He probably had some knowledge of the happenings in the world around him. He was still clearly intelegent and free-willed.
Quite possibly, and he'd already been 'visited' by Urikites prior to the PC's visit...but the gist I got from Dragon's Crown was that he somehow knew that Hamanu was either a Champion or intimately involved in that war. This isn't really an arguing point, since that's just my opinion and there's really no way to back up the claim either way; your idea is just as valid as mine. I just mentioned it as I'm guessing there are others who agree with me that it sounds a little "off," historically speaking.
I don't really see any direct contradictions between the Prism Pentad and what is mentioned in Dragon's Crown.
There are inconsistencies all over the game products, so I'm taking the path of least resistance, unless something clearly, and strongly, contradicts it.
I've given you your contradiction twice now, from the history as presented in the revised setting materials. More so, the way Haakar makes it sound, the "secret weapon" of the defiler armies were that they were a bunch of dragons. Kinda far fetched, don't you think? That's where the implied contradicition - albeit not direct - comes in; the prism pentad makes mention of "other dragons" (Nok's statement), that the S-K's are dragons (again, Nok), and demonstrates the difference between defiling magic and dragon magic on several occasions. Then there's the "historical wrap up" presented by the S-K's towards the end of the PP (thanks, Andy - nice light show) from which the revised setting "history of Athas" was based upon.
No, not any direct contradictions...but if dragons were that prevalent during the preserver jihad or Cleansing Wars, enough-so that Haakar would have been able to get enough info on the transformation spells to try and duplicate them, you'd think that there would be mention of dragons *somewhere* in the history sections of the later books beyond "...and Borys turned them into dragons."
...except that, as I pointed out, Wanderer's Chronicle specifically states 1) Rajaat "created" the Champions (not "named them") and bestowed additional powers upon them (specifically the ability to draw life energy), which caused the sun to grow darker - No dragon metamorphosis spell does that, so *something* extremely powerful had to be involved; 2) the transformation into Champions made them immortal, and 3) Borys made them dragons after the rebellion. If someone can find a later product (...maybe Preservers & Defilers?) that says otherwise then great, definitely correct me on this, but AFAIK the WC makes it pretty clear that "becoming a Champion" involved a magical transformation on par with the those transformations performed during the Rebirth; I see no other explaination for how Rajaat's creation of the Champions would have changed the color of the sun - he used the Pristine Tower to cast powerful spells on the Champions in a manner that was inconsistent with the dragon metamorphosis.
From my point of view, Rajaat turned them all into dragons simultaniously using the Pristine Tower and the Dark Lens in place of the standard casting, using energy from the sun in place of 15,000 life energy levels.
Quite possibly, and he'd already been 'visited' by Urikites prior to the PC's visit...but the gist I got from Dragon's Crown was that he somehow knew that Hamanu was either a Champion or intimately involved in that war. This isn't really an arguing point, since that's just my opinion and there's really no way to back up the claim either way; your idea is just as valid as mine. I just mentioned it as I'm guessing there are others who agree with me that it sounds a little "off," historically speaking.
Over a few thousand years he probably had quite a few visitors.
Tons of stuff sounds more than a little off, historically speaking. Much information is presented as various characters understand it. There are gaps and and innacuracies all around.
More so, the way Haakar makes it sound, the "secret weapon" of the defiler armies were that they were a bunch of dragons. Kinda far fetched, don't you think?
Extremely far fetched, but that's not what I think he's saying. If even a handful of the defilers had these strange and potent abilities he has seen or heard about, that would be more than enough. By defilers, I think he refers to the Champions forces as a whole. Also, Haakar clearly doesn't know the entire story. His grasp of the spell was pretty weak afterall; he didn't even know the end result of the transformation.
That's where the implied contradicition - albeit not direct - comes in; the prism pentad makes mention of "other dragons" (Nok's statement), that the S-K's are dragons (again, Nok), and demonstrates the difference between defiling magic and dragon magic on several occasions.
I doubt that Nok really knew all that much either.
Then there's the "historical wrap up" presented by the S-K's towards the end of the PP (thanks, Andy - nice light show) from which the revised setting "history of Athas" was based upon. No, not any direct contradictions...but if dragons were that prevalent during the preserver jihad or Cleansing Wars, enough-so that Haakar would have been able to get enough info on the transformation spells to try and duplicate them, you'd think that there would be mention of dragons *somewhere* in the history sections of the later books beyond "...and Borys turned them into dragons."
I don't feel they were prevalent at all. I think there were 15 (the champions), total, at this time.
Dragons do not have to be prevalent for Haakar to obtain a copy of the Defiler Metamorphosis spell. It's pretty clear that Haakar didn't even know what a dragon was. I suspect that the WInd Mages either stole, or stumbled upon, a complete, or nearly complete version of the spell, and that Haakar simply did not have necisscary skills to full grasp the workings of the spell. Afterall, it did take a 20th/20th level psionicist/defiler to cast. Haakar was likely a far cry from that level of psionic ability and a bit short in magical skill.
Where exactly is this "...and Borys turned them into dragons." from? I can't find it.
Where exactly is this "...and Borys turned them into dragons." from? I can't find it.
Beginning of the Wanderer's Chronicle (or W Journal; whichever is in the revised setting box set) it goes over the history of things - right before the section on the Cleansing Wars it states that Rajaat gave the Champions immortality and the ability to use life energy, then a page or two later, when it talks about the rebellion, it says 2 or 3 times that he told them how to become "dragon-kings" and taught them the first stage in the transformation process (i.e. defiler metamorphosis I). Then he says something to the effect of "...and now one of us has to complete the transformation to watch over Rajaat's prison."
Doesn't leave much room for debate the way the whole thing is worded - Borys and the others turn into dragons *after* the rebellion, and use the same transformation process (only fully) to change Borys into a 10th-stage dragon.
But, yes, that passage leaves little room for argument, if it is taken as gospel.
I guess it comes down to what feels right. That is nearly the only official (and non athas.org) passage that specifically states the champions became dragons after the rebellion. Earlyer material hints in the opposite direction. A bigger factor for me is the dubious utility of a Champion transformation. The sorcerer-kings seem to have no more personal power than other dragons would have. They never demonstrate (in game products or the Prism Pentad) any abilities that cannot be explained by reasonably common psionics or magic. Some of the major powers attributed to the champions are part of being a dragon as well.
Basically, I don't feel another inflating trasformation helps the game, or makes much sense where history is concerned.
I can either make a few changes to one entry in one source, or I can totaly disregard several earlier sources.
Edit: I just remembered something that may help reconcile many of these descrepancies. A few sections in "Defliers and Preservers: Wizards of Athas" go a long way in explaining the existance of a Deflier Metamorphosis spell created by Raajat, but quite possibly never used by him. This would allow for the Champions in general to not yet have begun the metamorphosis, but would provide for a copies of the spell somewhere that Dregoth and Haakar could possibly have obtained.
On page 17; what appears to be preliminary research into a transformation of some sort (seemingly related to life-shaping and the powers of the pristine tower):
-he learned that the spark of energy inherent in all living things was a source of great power. He wanted to use that power to transform either his body or his spirit into something grand. Though he believed he was close to a solution, none of the processes he developed achived the desired effect. However, Rajaat did acomplish something. He unlocked the secrets of magic and became the First Sorcerer.
Life energy was the source of magic, and Rajaat learned through experimentation that plants and the land itself were the easiest sources to tap. He eventually realized that there were certain places where the life force was stronger, more abundant. If he found a place overflowing with life, he believed he could use its energy to initiate the transformation he so desperately desired.
On page 18; research into psionics and the combining of it with magic, looks like this could be where the Defiler Metamorphosis was produced (and just as quickly tossed aside):
Rajaat’s studies also focused on psionics, for by combining the two arts he became even stronger. Through mastery of both magic and psionics, Rajaat found a path to transformation and a higher level of existence. The First Sorcerer wasn’t pleased, however, for this higher existence wasn’t the one he dreamed of. It seemed to Rajaat that all his work had been for nothing.
Perhaps the process used to grant his Champions their immortality, and greater defiling ability through obsidian, was something like defiler metamorphosis 'lite'? Knowing that a physical dragon transformation would be nigh irreversible, and given his dislike for the creatures of the rebirth, perhaps a partial transformation was easier for him to stomach than something that would make his Champions even further from the idea.
Or, perhaps more likely, Rajaat simply feared the possible powers of dragons.
Another possibility could have been that the Defiler Metamorphosis spell had been lost/stolen at this point and Raajat was unwilling to spend the time and effort to reinvent it when a simpler process would suffice?
Conform to our way of thinking - you want a war? I say we get an impartial dm and fight it out over the Athasian wastes. Lets settle this debate for once and for all. Then we can finally say: no that is wrong we settled that in the "Dragons or Champions War of 2006"(or Free Year 35)
And as far as
A bigger factor for me is the dubious utility of a Champion transformation. The sorcerer-kings seem to have no more personal power than other dragons would have. They never demonstrate (in game products or the Prism Pentad) any abilities that cannot be explained by reasonably common psionics or magic.
The last page of this thread has several posts by me referring to how Hamanu is extremely different from the other Champions, and of course this whole thread is supposed to be about Sacha and Wyan and the idea that they may not, in fact, be undead entities due to special abilities granted to them by Rajaat.
I'll admit that your arguments are sensical if taken in the context that you broach them in, but yours is the minority view on the boards here (at least amongst those that commonly post), and definitely not the way athas.org went. If you look at the whole picture, and try and piece together everything in a way that makes the most sense as a whole then the Champions end up being different than "just dragons."
Even with that there's nothing to say that Dragon's Crown can't still be used - we're talking a ghost here who fought the defiler armies and who is definitely 'warped' in some way by it (heck, as pointed out he screwed up the spell and killed off everyone in the entire area), so there's no reason to even believe that what he tells the group is the reality behind it. Since the full 10-stage dragon metamorphosis was known to Borys after the rebellion then it had to have been developed prior to that, and if it was developed prior to that then perhaps Haakar caught wind of it.
But that still doesn't mean that the Champions were dragons.
The discussion has however sloped some from more pertinent items of interest. If I may be so bold, I might recommend that our dialogues may be more progressive if...
1) "First Box" canon should probably be taken in favor of what 2nd box and post-second box offer. First box corresponds far more comfortably to the flavor and designs of the Prism Pentad, and perhaps even more importantly, was more frequently written and supervised by the authors who originally created the Dark Sun universe. Mistakes are even more plentiful in the post 2nd box publications, and in my opinion the authors of these later supplements did note demonstrate the more intimate awareness many of the members of this board have attained with regards to all the novels and earlier supplements. Simply put, post-2nd box writers and editors seemed to simply become either sloppy and/or careless. Items such as the 2nd box timeline in the Wanderer's Chronicle (as opposed to the 1st box Wanderer's Journal) should be taken only with reservation, for once again the timeline does not demonstrate a nuanced familiarity with the events and story put forth in the Prism Pentad or in the 1st box supplements. The timeline's author seems only to possess a thorough surface knowledge of the PP, and not a more in-depth familiarity. Etc.
2) Too associated with 2nd box material, and really in many ways in its own category, Lynn Abbey's novels and supplement short story, although frequently entertaining, severely damage the logical integrity of the DS universe. Only an astute Abbeyophile apologist could tweak R&FoaDK and company to correspond well with the PP, which, I hope we all agree, forms much of the heart of the DS world and story. Abbey's depictions of S&W will likely not help us much here then, save for those who have embraced an Abbeyan universe in favor of Denning's work.
3) There are quite a few details which I have yet to annotate in this thread concerning Sacha and Wyan in the Obsidian Oracle and the Cerulean Storm (see my posts near the beginning of this thread). Some of this material, if treated properly, is very enlightening, regarding S&W, but also regarding the champions and DS ancient history in general. What are S&W's powers? Can they cast 10th level spells, as I have argued in this thread? One of us astutely pointed out that S&W's seemingly demonstrated clairsentient abilities may have simply only been their communication with the shadow people... certainly an excellent observation. Information and dialogue more along these lines, drawing strongly from the PP, will assist us more readily with our general discussion rather much more than ill-written and short items in the 2nd box world and R&FoaDK.
I hope to join the fray more comprehensively in the near future. Until then... Happy darksunning.
As a note, I have a certain degree of support for your arguments regarding champions=dragons oralpain. Use of the 2nd box timeline in this matter by some of your opponents is certainly inappropriate (it is a flawed chronology, and its canonization in my mind by the community is dubious). The PP should probably be more of the authority in this matter. I mentioned many of the most pertainable arguments concerning the PP's information regarding this matter much earlier in this thread, as well as elsewhere.
1) "First Box" canon should probably be taken in favor of what 2nd box and post-second box offer. First box corresponds far more comfortably to the flavor and designs of the Prism Pentad, and perhaps even more importantly, was more frequently written and supervised by the authors who originally created the Dark Sun universe. Mistakes are even more plentiful in the post 2nd box publications, and in my opinion the authors of these later supplements did note demonstrate the more intimate awareness many of the members of this board have attained with regards to all the novels and earlier supplements. Simply put, post-2nd box writers and editors seemed to simply become either sloppy and/or careless. Items such as the 2nd box timeline in the Wanderer's Chronicle (as opposed to the 1st box Wanderer's Journal) should be taken only with reservation, for once again the timeline does not demonstrate a nuanced familiarity with the events and story put forth in the Prism Pentad or in the 1st box supplements. The timeline's author seems only to possess a thorough surface knowledge of the PP, and not a more in-depth familiarity. Etc.
An opinion that you share with some here, and not with others. Honestly, people should understand that different people have different ideas with regards to what should or shouldn't be chosen. The Athas.org view is to let the individual DM choose.
2) Too associated with 2nd box material, and really in many ways in its own category, Lynn Abbey's novels and supplement short story, although frequently entertaining, severely damage the logical integrity of the DS universe. Only an astute Abbeyophile apologist could tweak R&FoaDK and company to correspond well with the PP, which, I hope we all agree, forms much of the heart of the DS world and story. Abbey's depictions of S&W will likely not help us much here then, save for those who have embraced an Abbeyan universe in favor of Denning's work.
Actually, Lynn Abbey's work came out independent of the 2nd Boxed Set. They are not integrated, nor do they influence each other at all. Ref: Communication breakdowns irife in TSR.
3) There are quite a few details which I have yet to annotate in this thread concerning Sacha and Wyan in the Obsidian Oracle and the Cerulean Storm (see my posts near the beginning of this thread). Some of this material, if treated properly, is very enlightening, regarding S&W, but also regarding the champions and DS ancient history in general. What are S&W's powers? Can they cast 10th level spells, as I have argued in this thread? One of us astutely pointed out that S&W's seemingly demonstrated clairsentient abilities may have simply only been their communication with the shadow people... certainly an excellent observation. Information and dialogue more along these lines, drawing strongly from the PP, will assist us more readily with our general discussion rather much more than ill-written and short items in the 2nd box world and R&FoaDK.
With the 3/3.5e rules, ability to cast 10th-level spells (Epic Spells) are independent of being a Dragon. I have no problem with Sacha and Wyan being able to use Epic Spellcasting, or maybe even Epic Manifesting. I'm even relatively lenient on the notion that they could use magic and psionics together. I do have a problem with the somewhat slippery slope idea that what Rajaat meant when he said he'd make his Champions to be like gods, that automatically means he made them into dragons. Because honestly, there is far too many other ways that can be taken that it would be intellectually dishonest to automatically assume one possible choice as the only option.
As a note, I have a certain degree of support for your arguments regarding champions=dragons oralpain. Use of the 2nd box timeline in this matter by some of your opponents is certainly inappropriate (it is a flawed chronology, and its canonization in my mind by the community is dubious). The PP should probably be more of the authority in this matter. I mentioned many of the most pertainable arguments concerning the PP's information regarding this matter much earlier in this thread, as well as elsewhere.
Another view is that game materials override the novels -- for novels cannot properly define or encompass mechanics. Second -- later materials include a variety of changes & fixes along with those flaws. But, the later publication date materials still hold much more credibility with regards to the Dark Sun game than the novels do, particularly, once again, with mechanics. Use of the Wanderer's Chronicle is not out of line here at all.
Merek could easily have been working for Hamanu well prior to Hamanu becoming a champion, and Hamanu could have been working for Myron.
No matter how much the details of RaFoaDK which happen to straddle those of the Prism Pentad series can be ignored, those details that are unique to RaFoaDK - such as the past of Hamanu - are canon. Manu was the son of a hillside farmer, his whole village killed by trolls pushed forward by the armies of Myron. Manu became part of those primitive marauding bands Myron used as an "army", and eventually led a rebellion within it, for he discovered that these bands only corralled the trolls but did not cleanse them. The troll killings attracted the attention of Myron, who killed Manu but binded his soul to his dying body. Manu's death cries that lasted days travelled the ether and reached the Pristine Tower, causing Rajaat to teleport to the scene and take notice that Myron was not doing his job of killing the trolls, so he makes Myron suffer the same death throes as Manu did while Manu is being brought back to life by Rajaat, who then makes him a Champion, after which the newly minted Hamanu finishes off Myron's burned out frame.
...except that, as I pointed out, Wanderer's Chronicle specifically states 1) Rajaat "created" the Champions (not "named them") and bestowed additional powers upon them (specifically the ability to draw life energy), which caused the sun to grow darker - No dragon metamorphosis spell does that, so *something* extremely powerful had to be involved; 2) the transformation into Champions made them immortal, and 3) Borys made them dragons after the rebellion. If someone can find a later product (...maybe Preservers & Defilers?) that says otherwise then great, definitely correct me on this, but AFAIK the WC makes it pretty clear that "becoming a Champion" involved a magical transformation on par with the those transformations performed during the Rebirth; I see no other explaination for how Rajaat's creation of the Champions would have changed the color of the sun - he used the Pristine Tower to cast powerful spells on the Champions in a manner that was inconsistent with the dragon metamorphosis.
Exactly! The parallel with the changes the Rebirth brought upon the sun is a major argument.
From my point of view, Rajaat turned them all into dragons simultaniously using the Pristine Tower and the Dark Lens in place of the standard casting, using energy from the sun in place of 15,000 life energy levels.
This opinion of yours is based on RaFoaDK...yet a post or two earlier you mention that you think that Champion is only a title bestowed by Rajaat, while in RaFoaDK Hamanu clearly states there are differences between a Champion (= Champion process + dragon process) and a powerful guy who achieves dragonhood on his own (= character levels + dragon process). Abbey's Champions have insane powers, not all of them steming from being dragons...the rest are due to the template Rajaat bestowed upon them when he made them Champions.
So you see, Champion is not just a title if you go by the source which I believe you keep dear to heart (RaFoaDK).
But, yes, that passage leaves little room for argument, if it is taken as gospel.
I'm inclined to grin a lot here, because you make this appear vague and loose so the ideas you like - Rajaat turned all his Champions into dragons from the get go - can have more weight.
Yet you can't have it both ways. You can't use overwhelming evidence to support one part of your ideas, and then mention that another bunch of overwhelming evidence (which happens to go agaisnt your ideas) is sketchy at best and can safely be disregarded.
That is nearly the only official (and non athas.org) passage that specifically states the champions became dragons after the rebellion.
The same is true about the passage that mentions elemental vortices...yet nearly everyone loves that concept and disregards RaFoaDK's lens connection. Even though elemental vortices are barely mentionned in any of the sources...they are canon and athas.org uses them.
The same is true about the passage that mentions elemental vortices...yet nearly everyone loves that concept and disregards RaFoaDK's lens connection. Even though elemental vortices are barely mentionned in any of the sources...they are canon and athas.org uses them.
The living elemental vortices are mentioned a good deal actually (mostly in Dragon Kings). Your post is the first time I have heard of this "lens connection".
You can't use overwhelming evidence to support one part of your ideas, and then mention that another bunch of overwhelming evidence (which happens to go agaisnt your ideas) is sketchy at best and can safely be disregarded.
Why not? There is evidence for both, yet both cannot be true. This is where the DM makes a choice. Being the minimalist that I am, I feel strongly inclined to toss out anything that is not necissary, unless it has substantial backing.
The material in "Defilers and Preservers" is the strongest argument for champion status really being a transformation distinct from dragon. Well, it doesn't really argue that point, but it provides a very plausible reason for me to think it likely.
I normally try and stay out of the champion template vs dragon debate. But I will say this.
If you go by the original box set and the novels, there is nothing to show that the champions were more than the dragons that Rajaat created. And this is the way I preffer to go with my own campaigns..... note they are really powerful epic psions and defilers, but their special abilities are all ones that players can duplicate..... except for one.... the ability to grant spells.... that comes from the unique nature of their creation using 2 specific artifacts that drained from the source of all life force, the sun itself.... so their transformation to the first stage of being a dragon granted them an increase in power there. Note I do grant them minor boosts on the first spell due to this.... but further transformation is by the base rules
So by the first box set and novels it is more along the lines that, by 3.5 rules, the first defiler metamoprhosis was different than the one presented for PCs to use, but it was also using totally different mitigating factors... further transformations would be by the book..... (except in Borys case as he used variant spells to complete the transformation again at the tower.) so this is why the SK's gained the ability to grant spells and such.... they were opened up to a conduit to drain the very life force of the sun itself.... it makes sense they would have additional elemental conduits from this. (be they elemental vortexes drawn into them due to the transformation or what have you.)
Note once the revised set came out, it pretty much contradicted most of the prior stuff and hence the inconsitancies crept in. I really, really do not like alot of stuff that came out of the revised setting and I think it really damaged the feel of the setting (in addition, I disliked some of the later stuff in the dragon kings book mainly among the things I dislike are the Avangions, I much preffer the idea of preserver dragons personally, which is what Nok was originally portrayed as, even by the interviews with Troy Denning. Even though I loved that they actually statted out the dragons, even though they lost alot of the ability that Borys had in the first box set.). I personally stick to the earlier form of the timeline... but leave the exact nature hidden and lots of misconceptions and outright lies out there to mess with people.
Now for the stuff I have helped with at Athas.org, I go with the majority on what we design, even when it goes against what I will use in my own games.... this is why i have designed my own versions of defilers/preservers, dragons, avangions (in case I ever use them... more likely just to give to others who like my ideas), whole new systems to fit Athas better, new classes to represent the history of psionics and magic in Athas, etc...
...By the way Seker, on the matter of Nok, do you have any access or the links to Denning's comments regarding the preserver dragon issue. I have lightly looked for some full interview with him on the internet regarding this, but I must have missed it. Could you inform me or offer further assistance?
Much thanks.
...A company of armored figures marched out of the abse of the keep. They descended the tower's spiraling staircase and went into the wilderness. Soon, great patches of forest began to wither and die as they waged a terrible war.
"He created us - his champions - to lead the armies of the Cleansing Wars," said the Oba. "Rajaat told us to destroy all the new races, or they would spawn monsters like him and overrun the world."
...Then...the destruction ceased, and the champions returned to the Pristine Tower.
...(stuff about Rajaat being mad vs. him not choosing humans)
"And then you rebelled, imprisoning Rajaat," finished Sadira.
..."I see you know the rest of the story."
"Not all of it," said Sadira. "How did Borys lose the Dark Lens? I'd think he would be more careful with something so valuable."
"The transformation into a Dragon is a difficult one," answered the Oba. "Shortly after we changed him, Borys lost his mental balance and went on a rampage. No one realized the lens had been stolen until he recovered - a century later."
That's the bit that the Oba states.
Based on this, the history from the revised setting contains "more" info than Denning put into the PP (...although I think there were previous PP quotes regarding the actual rebellion, I just don't know where to look for them). Denning doesn't specifically differentiate between champions and dragons, but the above quote does give us the following to go off of:
1) Rajaat 'created' the champions. The way it's worded indicates to me that, dragon or champion template, they were definitely changed somehow.
2) The champions turned Borys into the dragon, and the Oba acknowledges that the transformation is a difficult one.
Now, to me, those two pieces of info give credence to the idea that there's something different about champions than simply being a dragon; the Oba doesn't say "he created us - his champions" and then later "the transformation is a difficult one, when we finished turning Borys into a dragon..." but instead seems to separate the two.
Let me throw this bit into the mix as well, from Dragon Kings (written by Timothy Brown, the DS co-creator with Denning):
Essentially, the seven S-K's are the first defilers who matched their great magical skills with ultimate psionic power. When they attained this level of magic is unclear... On attaining the first stage... Each had mysteriously become the focus of unlimited elemental magic. Though they couldn't tap this power themselves, (they) could impart that power to...the templars. ...
In actuality, with the casting of their first metamorphosizing spells, the sorcerer-kings each attracted the attention of...a living vortex.
Right there you've got it stated that they cast the spells, that it caused the link to the vortices, etc., which is all as stated in the WC. This also helps knock down the idea that there were a ton of dragons roaming around during the CW - might have been some, but definitely that wasn't "the source of the defiler's power" as Haakar puts it, and it also seems to separate champion-vs-dragon as well. I guess you could argue that the PP's lack of mentioning anything other than warriors and defilers during the Cleansing Wars doesn't mean that there weren't any, but we do have a pretty clear-cut idea here that it was during their dragon metamorphosis that the vortices attached themselves; if you want to say that champion=dragon, then you're also going to have to include templars into the whole of the Cleansing Wars.
...which I guess you can do, but the way the WC describes it seems to make more sense to me, even when compared to "original" game/setting material.
...By the way Seker, on the matter of Nok, do you have any access or the links to Denning's comments regarding the preserver dragon issue. I have lightly looked for some full interview with him on the internet regarding this, but I must have missed it. Could you inform me or offer further assistance?
Found this in the Cerulean Storm:
..."If Rajaat was trying to give the world back to halflings...why didn't he use halflings?"
"He couldn't make them sorcerers," answered the Oba. "Because their race harkens back to the Blue Age, before the art of sorcerey existed, they cannot become sorcerers."
That's right from Denning's own writing. I recall him mentioning the preserver/dragon issue somewhere, but at least that's what the PP has to say about it.
I guess that also means that no thri-kreen should be able to cast spells, either. And maybe the Nikaal(?) as well. Huh.
Right there you've got it stated that they cast the spells, that it caused the link to the vortices, etc., which is all as stated in the WC. This also helps knock down the idea that there were a ton of dragons roaming around during the CW - might have been some, but definitely that wasn't "the source of the defiler's power" as Haakar puts it, and it also seems to separate champion-vs-dragon as well.
Honestly I think Haakar's statement could be true to a great extent even with a single example of a dragon (or simply a champion who could use obsidian to channel non-plant life energy). Anything that gave "the defilers" (the forces of Rajaat) a difinitive edge could be considered the source of their power without too much of a stretch.
Haakar clearly had a copy of the defiler metamorphosis spell. I doubt he had any way of knowing if anyone had used it at that point. He is likely making an assumption based on the percieved power/complexity of the magic and how it matches up with various phenomena he has attributed to some part of Rajaat's forces.
I guess you could argue that the PP's lack of mentioning anything other than warriors and defilers during the Cleansing Wars doesn't mean that there weren't any, but we do have a pretty clear-cut idea here that it was during their dragon metamorphosis that the vortices attached themselves; if you want to say that champion=dragon, then you're also going to have to include templars into the whole of the Cleansing Wars.
...which I guess you can do, but the way the WC describes it seems to make more sense to me, even when compared to "original" game/setting material.
As has been noted there are mistakes and inconsistencies all around. Later material took steps to resuce this somewhat, but there are still gaping questions and some contradictions.
It's not really hard to separate dragon transformation and the attachment of the living vortices, if that is what someone chooses to do.
That's right from Denning's own writing. I recall him mentioning the preserver/dragon issue somewhere, but at least that's what the PP has to say about it.
I guess that also means that no thri-kreen should be able to cast spells, either. And maybe the Nikaal(?) as well. Huh.
I am not contesting what the Oba said, but it's clear that her reasoning is innacurate, or a vast over simplification.
All the races of the rebirth predate wizard magic.
Also, I don't see anything in that quote that appears to have anything to do with the "preserver/dragon issue".
As far as the revised setting 'messing up' the original, intended history...I'll disagree full-heartedly with that. Troy Denning was one of the original setting creators, he messed up things during the PP and thus created the revised setting, and as far as even *his* version of history goes, it changes during the course of the PP depending on where you look and who's speaking. In the early stages of the series it's stated (by Er'Stali) that the traitors forced Rajaat to turn Borys into the dragon. Later on, Khidar tells Sadira (right before turning her into the sun wizard) that his people were created when the traitors sacrificed them to turn Borys into the Dragon (i.e. their lives were used to fuel the metamorphosis spells), and in CS the Oba tells them that "Rajaat created us-his champions" and a paragraph or two later says that "when we transformed Borys" and that "the transformation into a dragon is a difficult one." Anyone trying to write a "true" history based on Denning's work would have to do some editing, so that's what they did, and that's why I feel that the history - as presented in the WC - is the "best you can get" from an all-'round standpoint.
First off these three statements are NOT mutually exclusive. Not to mention the fact that each of the people giveing the history had reasons to have skewed viewpoints on it.
1, lets see the first quote was from the DWARVERN book from that time period.... the ones that were hunted and knew the least about the actual structure of what happened in the champions armies and their creator. So this has to be taken with a grain of salt. But even then.... it just states that the champions forced Rajaat to make borys into the final stages of dragon.... ie to complete the transformation. Again though, the dwarves have no actuall people who would have been present during the transformation, so this is second hand information at best.
2. Khidar actually said "It was here that Rajaat imbued his champions with the power to carry out his will, and here that the traitors forced him to make Borys into the Dragon." (page 305 of amber encantress) And then on page 308 says "Our race was born of the magic which made Borys into the Dragon. We're the descendants of the loyal servants of Rajaat - of the men and women whom the champions sacrificed in order to complete the betrayal of their master. When Borys dies, our race will be released from its fate."
Notice by this information it in NO way contradicts the info from the book of Kemalok kings. It is stating the halflings were used to power the transformation (which brings into question what would happen to the people used to power Kalaks transformation if he had not died.) But it is ALSO stating that Rajaat was forced to make the transformation of Borys into the final form of dragon.
3. The only thing mentioned there is that after "we" changed Borys.... which in no way removes them from forcing Rajaat in making the transformation of Borys.... she just does not specify how it was done at all.
That's the bit that the Oba states.
Based on this, the history from the revised setting contains "more" info than Denning put into the PP (...although I think there were previous PP quotes regarding the actual rebellion, I just don't know where to look for them). Denning doesn't specifically differentiate between champions and dragons, but the above quote does give us the following to go off of:
1) Rajaat 'created' the champions. The way it's worded indicates to me that, dragon or champion template, they were definitely changed somehow.
2) The champions turned Borys into the dragon, and the Oba acknowledges that the transformation is a difficult one.
I am sorry but you are inferring something that was not stated in this analysis. By everything that was actually written in the PP it is showing that the Champions forced Rajaat to complete the tranformation of Borys into the Dragon.... it says nothing of the nature of champions/dragons other than that (save Noks information that all of the Champions are dragons)
So yes the Champions did turn Borys into the Dragon.... but only indirectly by forcing their creator to complete his transformation.
Now, to me, those two pieces of info give credence to the idea that there's something different about champions than simply being a dragon; the Oba doesn't say "he created us - his champions" and then later "the transformation is a difficult one, when we finished turning Borys into a dragon..." but instead seems to separate the two.
Note they are reffering to the final form Dragon in each of these quotes, so you are assuming that they are seperate. I personally do see there is something extra to being a champion than just being a dragon, but that it is more likely that it is just a modified version of the first spell, due to the location it was cast in, and the items used in the proccess.
Let me throw this bit into the mix as well, from Dragon Kings (written by Timothy Brown, the DS[ co-creator with Denning):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Kings
Essentially, the seven S-K's are the first defilers who matched their great magical skills with ultimate psionic power. When they attained this level of magic is unclear... On attaining the first stage... Each had mysteriously become the focus of unlimited elemental magic. Though they couldn't tap this power themselves, (they) could impart that power to...the templars. ...
In actuality, with the casting of their first metamorphosizing spells, the sorcerer-kings each attracted the attention of...a living vortex.
Right there you've got it stated that they cast the spells, that it caused the link to the vortices, etc., which is all as stated in the WC. This also helps knock down the idea that there were a ton of dragons roaming around during the CW - might have been some, but definitely that wasn't "the source of the defiler's power" as Haakar puts it, and it also seems to separate champion-vs-dragon as well. I guess you could argue that the PP's lack of mentioning anything other than warriors and defilers during the Cleansing Wars doesn't mean that there weren't any, but we do have a pretty clear-cut idea here that it was during their dragon metamorphosis that the vortices attached themselves; if you want to say that champion=dragon, then you're also going to have to include templars into the whole of the Cleansing Wars.
Again, while there may have been many dragons raoming around in the cleansing war, and I have nver said this, none of the others were made at the Pristine Tower with the Dark Lens..... which are 2 powerful artifacts linked to psionics and the Sun.... which has both elemental and life force properties per the novels.
And you would not have to include templars during the wars even if the Champions did gain the ability to do so during the time of the wars.... after all gaining a power and learning to use it are two seperate things....
...which I guess you can do, but the way the WC describes it seems to make more sense to me, even when compared to "original" game/setting material.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phaaf_glien
...By the way Seker, on the matter of Nok, do you have any access or the links to Denning's comments regarding the preserver dragon issue. I have lightly looked for some full interview with him on the internet regarding this, but I must have missed it. Could you inform me or offer further assistance?
Found this in the Cerulean Storm:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Right after the above quotes
..."If Rajaat was trying to give the world back to halflings...why didn't he use halflings?"
"He couldn't make them sorcerers," answered the Oba. "Because their race harkens back to the Blue Age, before the art of sorcerey existed, they cannot become sorcerers."
That's right from Denning's own writing. I recall him mentioning the preserver/dragon issue somewhere, but at least that's what the PP has to say about it.
I guess that also means that no thri-kreen should be able to cast spells, either. And maybe the Nikaal(?) as well. Huh.
Hmmm lets see.... the Oba was told that by who exactly? Rajaat.... and in the original box set, while halfings could be illusionists (and with high enough stats could even be ones of 20th level) they could not be normal wizards.... and illusionist at the time were severely limitted when it came to combat magic.... so they were NOT the best combat spellcaster, they would really not be the best choice for leaders of a war.... plus while it was easy to get huge numbers of humans to follow his champions in their genocidal purges, most halflings would not have been doing so.... his servants at the tower were not that many. (Add to the fact that humans were MUCH more numerous than halflings so make the logical choice.)
So while he could not make them "sorcerers", ie wizards, halflings could easily be illusionists. So that arguement is moot. Yes halflings are not as good of arcane spellcasters as humans, but they are able to achieve the levels needed for a metamorphosis even in the original setting, level wise.... there were just 2 problems in it.... first they could not cast all wizard spells.... and second, by the fluff, almost all halflings leaders were preservers (illusionists had to choose to be preservers or defilers) and so the chances of a defiler halfing of level high enough to become a dragon would be a 1 in a million (or 1 in a billion) shot.
I concur greatly with seker... the matter with Nok excepting, to a point, although in many ways I am forced to agree with him. Thank you for your imput here Seker... your authority on this issue will hopefully help bury this issue, at least on this thread.
Doubtful. Seker's views on preserver dragons and such are in the minority, perhaps even held only by Seker. I'm not commenting his view of things but rather its widespread adoption by fans.
Doubtful. Seker's views on preserver dragons and such are in the minority, perhaps even held only by Seker. I'm not commenting his view of things but rather its widespread adoption by fans.
Heh Penn, I think he was agreeing with me on the stuff "except" the stuff on perserver dragons. And while I know alot of my opinions on how things should be are based off only the first box set and original novels, but i personally think that when the revised set was released it caused almost all the conflicts in fluff....
And you know how much of a stictler on fluff I am. You also know that while I set my own games by how the original fluff was (up to the point that I have rewritten the entire rules system no less than 5 times to get all the kinks out to make the system match the fluff properly) that I will help others build their systems around the fluff they want to accept. (even when I disagree with it.)
To be honest, on the presever dragon issue I admit that most of it is from the one interview and the instance of Nok in the novels, but to be honest the idea of the avangion leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Though I have even positted that the avangions ARE the preserver dragons at one point, at which point it makes sense for them to be able to drain animal life too.... As we added in the idea of them having the personal reserve of energy, this is a valid alternate way of looking at them.
On the other part where I was saying that the conflicts were brought in by the revised box set and further on (most likely due to lack of communication in TSR at the time, which we all know did happen... look at Abbey's work) this is something I can actually back up in quoting sources. As I did on Dirk00001's contention that there was a conflict on the origins of the champions/dragons even in the PP.... which I proved was an assumption and reading into what was actually written. By what was actually written there was no conflict in fluff.
And I am grateful for your help on material based on fluff you happen to not like that much...not sure I would be able to do the same with someone else would our places be reversed. Power unto you my friend
I hope we can one day finish that Nok-Farcluun-Xaymon-tree druid-Semetaire thing, as I really liked what our brainstorms brought up. Of late, someone on the boards asked for a few details on my stuff for Farcluun and I went off with several mile-long PMs to the guy...I think I'm still excited a lot about that whole Nok-Farcluun thing...
Doubtful. Seker's views on preserver dragons and such are in the minority, perhaps even held only by Seker. I'm not commenting his view of things but rather its widespread adoption by fans.
I also agree by and large with seker's responses concerning Dirk's recent criticisms, although of course you know of my reservations concernings the halfling wizard(/illusionist) issue.
Also Pennarin, although I have my reservations concerning seker's "Nok the dragon" arguments, nevertheless, I too am not terribly comfortable with most any other version of Nok with which I am aware. Indeed, although at times I seem forced to conclude Nok might be at some sort of avangion status (through conjectured methods which other strings spell out), I too have, as seker puts it, "a bad feeling in mouth" regarding Nok being an avangion. I feel that, even if Seker's view about the "dragon Nok" is not largely accepted, it at least may bear some more examination, from me at least, for there seems some glimmer of possibility, stemming from this Denning interview, that Denning himself might have supported something close to what seker is supporting.
As to Sacha and Wyan, hopefully my annotations of Books 4 and 5 will be coming shortly. There are some surprising tidbits offered in OE and CS about many things, and indeed, it is somewhat difficult to be clear on how exactly Denning defines the two, and other things for that matter...
...Any further thoughts, comments or criticisms of the tentative conclusion that S&W could cast tenth level spells as heads, or on any other such conclusions, would be most helpful I think.
Also Pennarin, although I have my reservations concerning seker's "Nok the dragon" arguments, nevertheless, I too am not terribly comfortable with most any other version of Nok with which I am aware.
Then you might be interested to know Seker and I thought hard about the issue and come up with the following. Nok is a kind of vagrant figure due to his affinity with wizard ways (which are anathema to halflings ways). He starts up as a preserver, perhaps even one on the verge of becoming a defiler, or is already one, when he stumbles on an immortal druid in the forest. Ensues sensei-like meetings with the tree (yes, the druid transformed himself long ago into a tree of life, so as to achieve immortality while respecting nature), who teaches Nok how to make the best use of his wizard skills, understanding Nok can't change who and what he is. The druid teaches Nok how to become a Leech (this discussion resulted in Jon considering changing the Leech PrC to allow for preservers to take it) so that he'll stop using nature's life energy as much as possible, sprinkling it with his own and that of his fellow halflings. The best the druid can do without changing Nok's nature.
There's a gazillion other things about this story, but basically Nok can pull life energy out of people since he's a Leech, and Ktandeo's Cane - the item Sadira uses in the novels - duplicates this class ability of Nok (...besides being a really powerful item).
Have I got it right Seker? Been a while. Sure I made a huge error somewhere.
Then you might be interested to know Seker and I thought hard about the issue and come up with the following. Nok is a kind of vagrant figure due to his affinity with wizard ways (which are anathema to halflings ways). He starts up as a preserver, perhaps even one on the verge of becoming a defiler, or is already one, when he stumbles on an immortal druid in the forest. Ensues sensei-like meetings with the tree (yes, the druid transformed himself long ago into a tree of life, so as to achieve immortality while respecting nature), who teaches Nok how to make the best use of his wizard skills, understanding Nok can't change who and what he is. The druid teaches Nok how to become a Leech (this discussion resulted in Jon considering changing the Leech PrC to allow for preservers to take it) so that he'll stop using nature's life energy as much as possible, sprinkling it with his own and that of his fellow halflings. The best the druid can do without changing Nok's nature.
There's a gazillion other things about this story, but basically Nok can pull life energy out of people since he's a Leech, and Ktandeo's Cane - the item Sadira uses in the novels - duplicates this class ability of Nok (...besides being a really powerful item).
Have I got it right Seker? Been a while. Sure I made a huge error somewhere.
yep you got it pretty much right on what we did up. Nok was a master of the way and had become a defiler prior to the druid/tree from speaking to him. And considering the power levels he would have been by our write up he was close to the point where he would start looking into defiler metamorphosis. The tree redeemed him and trained him to draw closer from animals (ie the leech PrC) to try and control his tendancies to drain to much. This kept him from risking the Green and destroying the Forest Ridge in his quests for power. It also toned down his own lust for power a bit and they started a village around taking in the halflings that were too close to the edge on becoming defilers.... to judge them and train those that could be redeemed.... those that could not or who would not wholely given themselves to the Green, were given to the Green. The reason his followers would follow him to death so easily.
Overall a really good story line, and I will try and get online on IM more this week so we can work on the stuff some more to finnish it up.
Note while I think we did alot of good stuff on it, I am still using Nok as a dragon in my own games :P
Mainly cause I do not allow alot of the prestige classes from athas.org in my own campaign.... including the leech. I feel it steps on the toes of the dragons too much. Though I do have a PrC that can allow for that ability much later on without becoming a dragon, the Obisidian Bard, but that is due to a mastery of obsidian itself and the price is much more than the Leech. It does Con damage not hp damage, to every one in the radius including the caster to use animal life in this manner..... of course my version of the Dragon does Con damage on life draining too though.
Nok was already a master of the Way and on his way to start considering some kind of epic transformation?? What I remember was the defiler or near-defiler status of Nok, the tree saving Nok from the perdition by teaching him the ways of the Leech and how to be a Wilder...so as to provide Nok a crucial skill set beyond sorcery.
I also remember we considered something like saying all halflings who are sent to Nok and don't end up fed to the Green are taught a twin skill set - sorcery and something else (generally Warrior, Fighter, Ranger, or a halfling PrC). A second skill set removes the need - thus the tentation - to use sorcery.
This, I think, explained certain tribe leaders that are powerful preserver/psions...they were part of Nok's tribe at one point and thus gained great prestige, for Nok is a child of the forest who communes with its spirits.
The Leech affects animal life energy, but is not powered by it. A Leech alone in a lush grove is as potent as in a crowd.
Nok was already a master of the Way and on his way to start considering some kind of epic transformation?? What I remember was the defiler or near-defiler status of Nok, the tree saving Nok from the perdition by teaching him the ways of the Leech and how to be a Wilder...so as to provide Nok a crucial skill set beyond sorcery.
I also remember we considered something like saying all halflings who are sent to Nok and don't end up fed to the Green are taught a twin skill set - sorcery and something else (generally Warrior, Fighter, Ranger, or a halfling PrC). A second skill set removes the need - thus the tentation - to use sorcery.
This, I think, explained certain tribe leaders that are powerful preserver/psions...they were part of Nok's tribe at one point and thus gained great prestige, for Nok is a child of the forest who communes with its spirits.
heh you are right it has been too long, we had him only as a wizard to start with and it was learning the psionics aspect which helped pull him away and eventually help him to learn to draw animal life (as a leech)
And we did have him teaching his followers a second skill set in all cases, to remove the reliance on sorcery. He did not allow for single classes wizards among his followers so that they would not focus on it too much.... but those that would not turn away from the defiler nature were fed to the green as abominations.
And we did have some few tribal leaders being his former students..... but not all of those that were preserver/psionicists.... as even by the original box sets most halfling tribal leaders were preservers per the fluff.
And we did have some few tribal leaders being his former students..... but not all of those that were preserver/psionicists.... as even by the original box sets most halfling tribal leaders were preservers per the fluff.
Then this is as good too, because it means some tribal leaders were former defilers or tainted wizards, and have become leaders despite this blemish on their record...which indicates to me that the stamp of approval of Nok and the tree druid are hard currency in the Ringing Mountains, valuable enough that even formerly tainted wizards or downright former defilers can be considered to become tribal leaders.
IIRC, the original boxed set contains little if any references to the Cleansing Wars, the sorcerer-monarchs themselves, or anything of that nature. Then there's the first "dragons!" book, Dragon Kings, which gives us our first real reference to the S-K's and what they're capable of, but still doesn't go into the Cleansing Wars and their part in them. The Prism Pentad obviously does, but we largely get it in pieces over the course of 5 books, and from a bunch of varying viewpoints. By the time the revised setting came out there were adventures galore, as well as other novels (...with, as you said, less communication within TSR to keep everything "in line"), and just like we all have our opinions on what should constitute canon and what should be ignored, I'm sure that the writers/editors of the revised setting had similar difficulty in deciding which way to "define history."
*shrug*
Oralpain: I misunderstood your "preserver/dragon" reference/question; one of the problems with writing a reply over the course of several hours and multiple interruptions. Quite frankly I don't even know what I was thinking you were asking when I posted that "answer."
Oralpain/Seker: The parts I was quoting from the PP weren't meant as a definitive "it has to be this way because it doesn't make sense any other way" type of response, nor were they meant to completely exclude any other possibility (i.e. I didn't intend for them to be "mutually exclusive" to each other, or even the other ideas broached). It was more along the lines of "things have never been completely clear-cut IMO since you have to decide what sources to take as truth, which ones as lies, and which ones as a little of both, so here's some more reasons why I go with the champion transformation != dragon metamorphosis line of reasoning." And that was about it - if it came off sounding like I was trying to 100% prove that my take is correct then it must have been a case of not being clear enough on my part. All of the arguments that both of you put forth are valid as well, and like you said Seker, there's no reason to believe any of the quotes I referenced, and more so they're likely all biased and/or incorrect to some extent.
IIRC, the original boxed set contains little if any references to the Cleansing Wars, the sorcerer-monarchs themselves, or anything of that nature. Then there's the first "dragons!" book, Dragon Kings, which gives us our first real reference to the S-K's and what they're capable of, but still doesn't go into the Cleansing Wars and their part in them. The Prism Pentad obviously does, but we largely get it in pieces over the course of 5 books, and from a bunch of varying viewpoints. By the time the revised setting came out there were adventures galore, as well as other novels (...with, as you said, less communication within TSR to keep everything "in line"), and just like we all have our opinions on what should constitute canon and what should be ignored, I'm sure that the writers/editors of the revised setting had similar difficulty in deciding which way to "define history."
*shrug*
Oralpain: I misunderstood your "preserver/dragon" reference/question; one of the problems with writing a reply over the course of several hours and multiple interruptions. Quite frankly I don't even know what I was thinking you were asking when I posted that "answer."
Hehe, no worries.
My points were the fact that the actual novels were pretty straighforward on the history. There were actually very few conflicts on the stuff in the first 5 novels. And I have read those novels so many times in goinv over everything to write all the different versions of the rules that I have memorized huge portions of it.... but I still refference just to be sure.
And while I really enjoy the authors of the revised settings other works (in fact the author was one of the ones who worked on my Fave system of all time TORG.) I really was disappointed with the revised setting when it came out because how it changed the entire feel of the campaign world, while at the same time causing massive conflicts in the fluff, and even removing options that were part of the original setting.
I base most of my own personal work off the original fluff and the Prism Pentad. And bring in the parts that do not directly conflict with it.
And remember while I think the change into Champions of Rajaat did make them first stage dragons..... I do NOT think that was all that was involved. I personally think that the transformation was much more dramatic in their cases as it also added certain other bonuses in. And in 3.5 terms they were epic spells designed using the pristine tower and the dark lens to mitigate the huge DC's of the spells
So by this interpitation sacha and wyan would be champions AND dragons.... and due to this stature they are not truely undead but more likely kept in this state to prevent them from regaining their power. (as any epic wizard worth his salt would create some kind of contingency against death. Especially ones that were leading genocidal campaigns.)
I also firmly believe that the spell granting ability stems from the Champion nature (as per the dragon kings book they gained it when they became dragons).... however I do not think it was a deliberate, it was more of a side effect of using the sun (through the power of the tower and focussed through the dark lens) to power the initial transformation. For while the Sun is the source of all life energy in Athas, at least per the novels.... it is also an elemental source for Sun clerics. Therefor this being what cause the linking of the vortexes really fits. And I do not think the SK's figured out how to use it for a long time.... after all they were not having actual worshippers to focus it too untill they became the Sorcerer Kings (ie the immortal kings and queens of the city-states) so it even fits that they would not be granting magic untill they were actually fully SK's .... the title and responsibilities that Borys gave them after his transformation.