Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 21, 2006 19:52:39	A Spirit of the Land is an intangible force that guards and wards the natural location it protects. It appears as a shapeless mist to those creatures that can see invisible things. Spirits of the Land exist as part of Athas life energies, slowly merging with this ebb and flow as they age and grow in power, until they exist as one with Athas itself. These wise, aged, spirits guard and cultivate their sacred lands, hoping to restore Athas from its existence as a wasteland. As they age, these spirits become less individuated slowly merging with their sacred lands and Athas as their previous indentity slips away. These dormant spirits exist all over Athas as beings that, while sleeping in a bath of eros, protect and ward their sacred lands, provide knowledge and communion to druids, and mend Athas' life-web. A dormant spirit is harder to rouse the older it gets, and even defiling may not wake very old spirits. Not all Spirits of the Land are good or benevolent, and some local tribes learn to avoid certain sacred places for fear of rousing the local spirit. Other Spirits become the object of worship for primitive tribal groups, and in some cases members of a tribe will be sent to receive spiritual instruction from a Spirit of the Land or a glimpse of the spirit bear, or spirit jaguar, a wildshaped forms of the Spirit of the Land. (An ego-less Spirit should be taken under control by the DM to guard and mend their sacred lands as an unindividuated part of Athas life energies). The natural course of the Druidic path on Athas is to become a Spirit of the Land, to further that connection with Athas and to mend the planet from within. Many druids continue on this path until they merge with the land itself, providing guidance to the next generation of Athas' caretakers. Other Spirits do not care for mortal beings, and only for the care of their sacred lands, and aged Spirits may simply rest in the nature of Athas life energies, rarely aroused by the happenings around it.
#2 csk Jul 21, 2006 20:20:55	Most epic classes (dragon and avangion included) are designed to allow a potentially infinite progression by gaining certain abilities at say every even level or every 4th level, etc. As this class lacks that characteristic, it's a little strange. One fix would be to change your Druidic Focus ability to one that is gained at levels 3, 6, 9, etc. and add more options to the list.
#3 phaaf_glien Jul 26, 2006 4:33:45	I enjoyed the read Orbdrin. I've always felt the metamorphosing druids needed more work.
#4 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2006 6:13:06	Didn't Dragon Kings state that Druids who progressed on to become Spirits of the Land also needed to be 20th level psionicists? (don't remember exactly, book not to hand). Adapting this to the other advanced being conversions for 3.5Ed surely they would need to be capable of manifesting 6th level psionic powers or greater to begin the metamorphosis or whatever you like to call it. I like the idea that the more the character advances towards becoming a spirit, the more he/she recedes away from the physical world. I think that should be true for elemental ascendants also. Eventually they become one with their element and dissappear!
#5 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2006 6:22:44	Without gods to hold them back, Athasian PCs ought not just "fade away" at epic levels, like they do in the Realms or on Krynn. No! They ought to change their world forever, not lurk in hidden caverns (Ioulaum, I'm looking at you, buddy) or advise minor kings of petty fiefdoms (Elminster, anyone). They ought to instead stride the Tablelands like conquering overlords, and even sorcerer-kings should be afraid of them. --a druid metamorphosing into a spirit of the land ought to be a mighty engine of Nature's wrath NB
#6 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2006 10:07:39	Without gods to hold them back, Athasian PCs ought not just "fade away" at epic levels, like they do in the Realms or on Krynn Okay, fair enough, but on the other hand epic charachters of the advanced being variety could very easily affect the status quo of the tablelands. We know that SKs pursue even any rumours of avangions and the emergence of another dragon also affects a campaign greatly. Though there is not much that I remember reading on elemental ascendants or spirits of the land affecting the established regime in the tablelands. Earth, Air, Fire & Water suggests that clerics become increasingly imbroiled in the conflicts between the elemental planes and that victories on the elemental planes have direct results observed on Athas Perhaps clerics eventually retire from Athas to work on repairing the conduits or to defend their element, ensuring that Athas slowly heals itself. Similarly, perhaps druids are drawn deeper and deeper into the earth, nurishing, revitalising and restoring it from the effects of defiling, eventually becoming very desensitised to the events of the world while fulfilling their overall task. No?
#7 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2006 13:30:07	Okay, fair enough, but on the other hand epic charachters of the advanced being variety could very easily affect the status quo of the tablelands. We know that SKs pursue even any rumours of avangions and the emergence of another dragon also affects a campaign greatly. Though there is not much that I remember reading on elemental ascendants or spirits of the land affecting the established regime in the tablelands. Ahhh, but the Kreen Empire has no such entities lurking to ambush would be advanced beings! Theoretically, the kreen emperor might even be advised by an earth cleric advanced being, or a fire cleric advanced being. Call him the Infernum, and you're ready to rumble! Earth, Air, Fire & Water suggests that clerics become increasingly imbroiled in the conflicts between the elemental planes and that victories on the elemental planes have direct results observed on Athas Perhaps clerics eventually retire from Athas to work on repairing the conduits or to defend their element, ensuring that Athas slowly heals itself. True. But remember: Unlike normal elemental, clerical advanced beings can return to Athas, and stomp defiler ass. And unlike lesser elementals, cleric advanced beings're all-too-familiar with a more "normal" rate of time, and thus can react with surprising speed that their glacial masters cannot comprehend.... Similarly, perhaps druids are drawn deeper and deeper into the earth, nurishing, revitalising and restoring it from the effects of defiling, eventually becoming very desensitised to the events of the world while fulfilling their overall task. No? No, not satisfying at all. If I'm playing a druid advanced being, I want to play the very incarnation of Nature's wrath, not a disembodied do-nothing who spends his time micromanaging the local- ecosystem. I want to play a Nature-worshipping bad-ass, not a cosmic gardener. --advanced beings of all sorts MUST leave a huge impact, or there's no point NB
#8 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2006 14:17:59	A question just popped into my head, though. If all spirits of the lands are druids with mighty psionics that've merged mind and Nature-magic to an indistinguishable degree, and they grant druid spells to other, lesser druids---then who got the ball rolling? Were the first spirits of the land "natural," in that they were always as they are now? Or did some enterprising cleric advanced being bind himself or herself to the land, thus creating an entirely new type of character class in the process? --this question's been nagging at me for years NB
#9 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 28, 2006 15:00:19	My personal take on Spirits of the Land (and no, I don't have stats written on them) are these: The Spirits of the Land were actual creatures that existed on Athas for as long as anyone (including the Spirits themselves) can remember. When the four main elements formed the pact of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, they bestowed additional power to the Spirits, entrusted them with the task of keeping the balance. The Spirits could grant divine magical power to mortals that was equal parts of divine energy from the four elements. These mortals became the first druids. Over time, when psionics filled Athas, the Spirits of the Land found a way to take those of their followers who are strong enough in magic and psionics, and connect/integrate/merge with these followers. The followers become Spirits of the Land in a sense, but more like part of their parent Spirit, in an almost collective/hive mentality sort of way. This provided a way for the Spirits of the Land to expand their power and influence over an area, which was important as Spirits were being destroyed by vast unadultered usage of defiling magic (something I think is one of the big reasons Spirits may resent defilers). I have been working with the idea that each advanced being SotL actually is simply an extension of the Spirit that particular druid had followed. He or she gains the power, knowledge, and resources of his or her patron SotL, becomes insubstantial/incorporeal, immortal, all that goodness. All the advanced beings interconnected through one of the original Spirits can share experiences, knowledge, abilities, etc. with each other, and have all of those resources at their disposal; as long as they remain within the area of influence for that Spirit, which expands whenever a new advanced being is added to the "collective" or "hive-mind". Any advanced being SotL can leave the area of influence, becoming corporeal, much like they were before the transformation. They have some advanced or enhanced features, like access to knowledge and experiences across the 'link', as well as still being basically immortal, and maybe a few other things, but their full & complete power is only restored when they return to their collective Spirits' area of influence. The original Spirit, the core of each of the collectives, can never leave the area of influence. Each of the advanced beings, because they are integrated with an original Spirit, does have the ability to grant divine druidic spells to mortal druids that follow that Spirit.
#10 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2006 15:05:07	Ah, so you make them into a gestalt entity that creeps across the land with each druidic "aspect" attained? --interesting NB
#11 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 28, 2006 15:18:01	Ah, so you make them into a gestalt entity that creeps across the land with each druidic "aspect" attained? --interesting NB Well, each druidic "aspect" still retains a sense of self, and independent functionality/capabilities. But outerwise, sure. I do think that a great many of these Spirits of the Land had died (the core creatures themselves) through the mass use of defiling magic -- particularly during Borys' rampage. Of course, combined with the SK's attempted purge of druids, I tend to make my druids a bit more rough & angry than the standard. I make them really, really hate defilers with a passion.
#12 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2006 18:52:50	I tried to reconcile the notion that Spirits exist in much greater quantities than other advanced beings, and this being the case, left out the necessity of Psionics to transform a Druid into a SotL. A PrC/spell combo might work well in this regard. The PrC granting many cool druidic powers, while a set of a few (I see the necessity of 10 epic spells for a SotL excessive) epic spells to create the transformation itself. Although, if this was the case, the would require psionics, as the Seed does. I can see how some people would want to keep the Psionics in, though. I also was trying to reconcile the fact that there are many Npc spirits and they serve a function in the greater scheme of things, different than the Dragon/Avangion, however, a PC SotL won't want to spend their time nurturing beetles in their Sacred Lands, so there needs to be some mechanism for a incorporeal insubstantial being to adventure and whop some defiler butt AND at the same time fit the Spirit of the Land image and role that they embody. I also liked the idea of many of the Spirits of the Land being dead or dormant through the ravages of defiler magic. Otherwise, whenever a defiler casts a spell, where is the all powerful spirit of the land to defend its sacred charge?
#13 zombiegleemax Jul 29, 2006 11:45:02	Well, each druidic "aspect" still retains a sense of self, and independent functionality/capabilities. But outerwise, sure. Interesting. Kind of like how the Primordials in Exalted have more than one self, more than one soul, yet have a "central" personality ultimately giving the orders. I do think that a great many of these Spirits of the Land had died (the core creatures themselves) through the mass use of defiling magic -- particularly during Borys' rampage. I agree. Athas is best left a dying ember of its former self. Of course, combined with the SK's attempted purge of druids, I tend to make my druids a bit more rough & angry than the standard. I make them really, really hate defilers with a passion. Yeah, same here. I run Athasian druids as mean bastards. --after all, druids've lost the most, as far as character classes go NB
#14 cnahumck Jul 29, 2006 15:30:04	Does anyone out there think that they city-states have SotL? How about various villages? I could see a PC SotL doing some interesting things building up a village or city. Oronis might have a few in New Kurn.
#15 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 29, 2006 15:59:11	Does anyone out there think that they city-states have SotL? How about various villages? I could see a PC SotL doing some interesting things building up a village or city. Oronis might have a few in New Kurn. I honestly don't think that the SotL go around announcing themselves, not even to Oronis. He might have one or two that are near or in New Kurn, but the only way he might know this, is through the druids in the area. Bear in mind that Oronis was once Keltis, and I think that the SotL's memories run deep -- Keltis was among the worst of the defilers in the world, and had been portrayed as desecrating entire regions just to search for the last of the lizardmen. Even though he has changed, the SotL's could still hold a bit of a grudge, or a worry about him even now -- they could be curious about what he is doing, but leary about ever directly interacting with him. The other city-states, I would say it depends. They wouldn't really be "of the city-state", but more of the land and environment that the city-state exists within. I would halfway think that the SotL's might consider the city-states as blemishes and scars, with festering cores (the sorcerer-kings) infecting the area.
#16 cnahumck Jul 29, 2006 16:47:38	I honestly don't think that the SotL go around announcing themselves, not even to Oronis. He might have one or two that are near or in New Kurn, but the only way he might know this, is through the druids in the area. Bear in mind that Oronis was once Keltis, and I think that the SotL's memories run deep -- Keltis was among the worst of the defilers in the world, and had been portrayed as desecrating entire regions just to search for the last of the lizardmen. Even though he has changed, the SotL's could still hold a bit of a grudge, or a worry about him even now -- they could be curious about what he is doing, but leary about ever directly interacting with him. The other city-states, I would say it depends. They wouldn't really be "of the city-state", but more of the land and environment that the city-state exists within. I would halfway think that the SotL's might consider the city-states as blemishes and scars, with festering cores (the sorcerer-kings) infecting the area. That is all true, but I like the idea of a SotL ruling a city like at the end of RaFoaDK, even though I know it is not canon, and I would never use the plot line in a campaign. I could see it happening more in a small village, with druids making sure that people stay away from arcane magic and tend the earth. It would never turn into a mighty city, but perhaps a small force that has the Spirit's blessing to use and protect the land. Like Native Americans, or what the Oba pretends to be/do.
#17 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 29, 2006 17:13:44	That is all true, but I like the idea of a SotL ruling a city like at the end of RaFoaDK, even though I know it is not canon, and I would never use the plot line in a campaign. I could see it happening more in a small village, with druids making sure that people stay away from arcane magic and tend the earth. It would never turn into a mighty city, but perhaps a small force that has the Spirit's blessing to use and protect the land. Like Native Americans, or what the Oba pretends to be/do. A small village, perhaps. I thought the SotL at the end of Rise & Fall was interesting, but I'm really, really unsure about several of the things it did. Including allowing a druid to become a Templar, which to me, are diametrically opposed to each other.
#18 cnahumck Jul 29, 2006 20:41:44	A small village, perhaps. I thought the SotL at the end of Rise & Fall was interesting, but I'm really, really unsure about several of the things it did. Including allowing a druid to become a Templar, which to me, are diametrically opposed to each other. Agreed. Like I said, cool idea, but I would not do it that way.