...any mages in Faerun? Is he that powerful, or is there one in Faerun more stronger than him?
Well, this has been done to death, but, as I recall:
Rhangaun (lich Wiz 33), Kartak (lich Nec 31), Elminster, Szass Tam, Shoon VII (demilich Nec 31/Arcm 5), Aumvor the Undying (lich Nec 22/NethArc 5/Arcm 5), Larloch (lich Wiz 46), Velsharoon (now a god), Sharn the Serpent-Queen, the Simbul, Halaster (Wiz 25/Arcm 5).
So, yes, there are mages stronger than Raist. There might be more, too.
But I was just wondering cuz if he can defeat the gods of Krynn, maybe(though gods in Faerun may be different in terms of power) he can defeat each and everyone of them.
Oh ok. Sorry.
But I was just wondering cuz if he can defeat the gods of Krynn, maybe(though gods in Faerun may be different in terms of power) he can defeat each and everyone of them.
Ah, but how did he defeat them? Are you sure that it was as simple as raw magical power; and not, for instance, a loophole that Fistandantilus discovered? ;)
And going from that, doesn't it mean that he then could defeat anyone, because something unlikely isn't the same as something impossible.
And going from that, why would it matter regardless? :whatsthis
And going from that, why would it matter regardless? :whatsthis
Yeah I know it doesnt really matter. But just asking as a mark fan. I dont know... I just love to think of "what ifs", thats why Marvel created such line of comics.
Cuz some of the interesting stuffs we will never see done officially.Faerun's Curse (Su): Any spell or attack roll directed at this creature by a being from another Campaign World (ie. Eberron, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Planescape, etc) is an insta-kill. Sorry, Drizzt, but every other world is cooler than yours, so you die.
-TRRW
. I guess it is apples vs. oranges...Id say the the authors of the Dragonlance game books and the Forgotten Realms game books have different opinion as to what a lvl 27 can or cant do in terms of novels. That said though... I still do think they underpowered Raistlin in the source books 
. Especially considering they did make Maly CR 39. I mean... if Raistlin could take on Takhisis... Maly really shouldnt be able to stand a chance... or at least their CRs should be a LOT closer. Anyways just my two cents.One thing I will say is that someone like, say Ariakas comes across a more intimidating to me than any Faerun villain. Same thing with Fistandantilus and or course Raistlin.
I would say that Raistlin could beat a lot of them through cunning rather than raw power.
Heh. Other guys can cast more Wish spells, but Raistlin is the guy who can phrase one right.
Heh. Other guys can cast more Wish spells, but Raistlin is the guy who can phrase one right.
Hey, that's the best way to describe him that I've heard.
Even though many of the characters in the Forgotten Realms source book are stated higher than Raistlin, I would say that based on novels, Raistlin has accomplished far more and shown a great deal more power. My vote goes for Raistlin being able to kick all their butts
I agree. Also, their's the time reaver thing.....in order to use it the way he used it, Raist would at least need to be level 39...and he was the combination of two archmages. Now say that Fisty was level 23 (his level in Tales of the lance....and the current book on DL mages only differs on that by one level) then combine what level Raist likely was at the end of Chronicles before his time traveling...level 20 at least. combine the two together and.....viola! level 43! And that many levels would get Raist the needed feats he's missing from the Legends book: Epic Spellcasting and Craft Wondrous Item.
Do the stats in the Legends of hte TWINS reflect what he was before he went back in time or when he entered the Abyss?
The statistics for the four time-travelling characters (Raistlin, Caramon, Crysania, and Tas) reflect their status at the beginning of War of the Twins. This is why Tas has no hoopak, since he was tossed into the Abyss.
Cheers,
Cam
So then whatever happened to Raistlin and Fistandilus is coinsidered in the stats as well?
Correct.
Cheers,
Cam
Correct.
Cheers,
Cam
I'm sorry, but contrary to most people in this thread, I think the mages of Faerun, most particluar Elminster and The Simbul, could beat Raistlin. Forgotten Realms is that much overpowered, and Raistlin has the dirty Curse of the Magi against him.
The thing with Raistlin, though, is that he shoots for an unfair advantage whenever possible; he'd probably have lost in a straight-up clash with Fistandantilus, but a little sleight of hand in an antimagic field went a long way for the guy with a little silver knife up his sleeve. Frankly, he had a harder time seducing a high priestess into using all that lawful good clerical might of hers to fire up the holy relic he'd researched -- though that went down pretty smoothly, too.
To cross genres for a second, he's like Batman taking on Superman: he doesn't do it with a left hook and a swift kick to the shins.
I'm sorry, but contrary to most people in this thread, I think the mages of Faerun, most particluar Elminster and The Simbul, could beat Raistlin. Forgotten Realms is that much overpowered, and Raistlin has the dirty Curse of the Magi against him.
Curse of the Magi is an optional rule, just like NPCs that make sense are optional to the Forgotten Realms.
Curse of the Magi is an optional rule, just like NPCs that make sense are optional to the Forgotten Realms.
Senisble NPCs are optional in the Realms? I thought they were forbidden. As for who would win, I strongly favor Raistlin, but it also depends where they fought. On Faerun, it would most likely be an even battle, leaning slightly towards the FRs character, but if it were on Ansalon, it would lean towards Raistlin. Unless one of the gods of magic is in a bad mood, looks down, and sees a wizard who does not worship them. Then Raistlin is the undisputed winner, because Elminster can't do much with his 3 levels of fighter and rogue against Raistlin in his 27 levels of usable magic.
Again, I would say its up to the author's interpretation. Somehow I get this feeling if Cam Banks wrote up the stats for Elminster and the other characters in the FR setting, they wouldnt nearly be as powerful as they are now. Cam did say once that Malys (at CR 39 )would mop the floor with Elminster and uhm.. the way El's stated...uhm...yea thats not happening.
Malys is a very scary dragon.
...any mages in Faerun? Is he that powerful, or is there one in Faerun more stronger than him?
Depends who is writing the story.
Do you mean in D&D terms? Has Raist's stats ever been published? What level was he when he destroyed the entire Palantheon (less Astinus)?
Depends who is writing the story.
Do you mean in D&D terms? Has Raist's stats ever been published? What level was he when he destroyed the entire Palantheon (less Astinus)?
Well, that's the rub. From what I posted earlier:
Also, their's the time reaver thing.....in order to use it the way he used it, Raist would at least need to be level 39...and he was the combination of two archmages. Now say that Fisty was level 23 (his level in Tales of the lance....and the current book on DL mages only differs on that by one level) then combine what level Raist likely was at the end of Chronicles before his time traveling...level 20 at least. combine the two together and.....viola! level 43! And that many levels would get Raist the needed feats he's missing from the Legends book: Epic Spellcasting and Craft Wondrous Item.
The problem however, is the Raist was statted out at 28. Cam has defended this by stating that Raistlin's situation was novel based and an exception. I can understand this, as Dragonlance is not the kind of campaign setting the boasts epic characters. However, one can see a lot of characters that were supposed to be epic, like Kingpriest Belindas and Mina, statted out as merely high level characters, but where given artifacts that pushed their spellcasting up (while not allowed by the levels) so that they could have all the benifits of the levels they *should* have had while still being below 20th level. It's these kind of things that get me a little irked at otherwise exemplary work.
Do you mean in D&D terms? Has Raist's stats ever been published? What level was he when he destroyed the entire Palantheon (less Astinus)?
Raistlin's stats from the beginning of War of the Twins i.e. around the time of the Dwarfgate War are published in the Legends of the Twins sourcebook. Luckily, since the version of Raistlin that fought and defeated the gods was in an alternate timeline and was entirely a plot-device, we don't need to know what he looked like.
Which means Raistlin could have beaten anybody the writer felt like him beating. I am sure Margaret would tell you that Elminster wouldn't have had a chance.
Cheers,
Cam
Raistlin's stats from the beginning of War of the Twins i.e. around the time of the Dwarfgate War are published in the Legends of the Twins sourcebook. Luckily, since the version of Raistlin that fought and defeated the gods was in an alternate timeline and was entirely a plot-device, we don't need to know what he looked like.
Which means Raistlin could have beaten anybody the writer felt like him beating. I am sure Margaret would tell you that Elminster wouldn't have had a chance.
Cheers,
Cam
Well, divine Raistlin would just be a major aspect template slapped onto his Legends stats. That's no biggie. And the excuse of "plot device" is beginning to......grk.
The Green Gemstone man was a plot device as well, that doesn't mean it isn't good to have RPG info on the character. Same here. Sure it was a plot device or a part of the writing, yeah, everything is. It's a piece of fiction. That still doesn't mean that when buying a RPG book(s) that claim to detail the events of a novel series, that we crazy consumers expect that. The trope of a plot device is defeated. No more. We'll all agree not to talk about Raistlin anymore if y'all agree never to use that thin argument again.
Dealsies? :D
Well, divine Raistlin would just be a major aspect template slapped onto his Legends stats.
Which wouldn't really tell anyone anything about the abilities of Divine Raistlin Spectaculaaar (feel free to add a few more aa's and maybe an exclamation point if you want) in the statistical sense since Dragonlance deities don't actually have any, well, stats.
So since you have an entity with numerically defined statistical abilities, namely one Raistlindantilus, transforming into one without them, namely God Raistlin, it's all just plot device material anyway. Or something.
We'll all agree not to talk about Raistlin anymore if y'all agree never to use that thin argument again.
You can all talk about Raistlin as much as you like. I'm sticking by the plot device defense.
Cheers,
Cam
Luckily, since the version of Raistlin that fought and defeated the gods was in an alternate timeline and was entirely a plot-device, we don't need to know what he looked like.
Which means Raistlin could have beaten anybody the writer felt like him beating. I am sure Margaret would tell you that Elminster wouldn't have had a chance.
Cheers,
Cam
Did you ever purchase the Chronomancer's Guide? Read the section on Dragonlance. Its not long.
Dragonlance is built almost entirely on alternate timelines. Claiming that there is one "true" timeline, and that others are alternate, is a bit futile.
Did you ever purchase the Chronomancer's Guide? Read the section on Dragonlance. Its not long.
There are a lot of 2nd edition AD&D products that no longer have any bearing on the current continuity. Takhisis having her home plane listed as Baator, for instance.
Dragonlance is built almost entirely on alternate timelines. Claiming that there is one "true" timeline, and that others are alternate, is a bit futile.
On the contrary, Dragonlance features alternate timelines as a guide for the establishment of the story in the "true" timeline, which is the one in which the final resolution of events takes place. I never said that alternate timelines weren't significant, but anybody who reads Legends gets the point that Raistlin defeating the gods was supposed to be a Very Bad Idea and not something that should really be attempted. Providing specific rules for how he managed to do it is something Margaret never wants to see published, and I tend to agree with her.
Cheers,
Cam
Raist did it, so we all know it's possible somehow. But giving the players a clear guideline on how to do it just stinks to high heaven of powerplaying. If a DM wants to allow it, there's nothing stopping him. But I don't ever want to see a canon "Guide to Becoming a God". Even the old immortal rules were very vague on the exact things you had to do, and that's a good thing.
There are a lot of 2nd edition AD&D products that no longer have any bearing on the current continuity. Takhisis having her home plane listed as Baator, for instance.
Specifically, Abthalom ;) . The silent majority rather liked some of those flavor rules, however.
On the contrary, Dragonlance features alternate timelines as a guide for the establishment of the story in the "true" timeline, which is the one in which the final resolution of events takes place. I never said that alternate timelines weren't significant, but anybody who reads Legends gets the point that Raistlin defeating the gods was supposed to be a Very Bad Idea and not something that should really be attempted. Providing specific rules for how he managed to do it is something Margaret never wants to see published, and I tend to agree with her.
See, now *that's* a counter argument. Just saying "cuz I said so" or "plot-device" is a bad argument. It reaks of someone pulling a "juris my diction" on ya, a "my house, my rules", which drives me up a wall.
Now, still concidering it to be a legitamite point, I still think there could be some answer or explanation on how it was done, not necessarily rules for players to go nuts on. It's the most famous thing to have had happened in Dragonlance from its most famous character.
See, now *that's* a counter argument. Just saying ... "plot-device" is a bad argument.
It's not the same thing?
"Plot Device" is far from a "bad argument". It means that to worry about the rules governing the thing in question is to miss the point, which is pretty much what Cam just said.
I never said that alternate timelines weren't significant, but anybody who reads Legends gets the point that Raistlin defeating the gods was supposed to be a Very Bad Idea and not something that should really be attempted. Providing specific rules for how he managed to do it is something Margaret never wants to see published, and I tend to agree with her.
Yet in that other reality, Raistlin being a god is very much a reality. I can't see why we'd give any reality any weight over any other.
Even the old immortal rules were very vague on the exact things you had to do, and that's a good thing.
I remember seeing that book advertised *years* ago. That was D&D 1ed wasn't it? I never bought it, I don't think I got into D&D until 10 or so years later.
What was in these old rules?
Adrian
I remember seeing that book advertised *years* ago. That was D&D 1ed wasn't it? I never bought it, I don't think I got into D&D until 10 or so years later.
What was in these old rules?
Well the Master rules had a short section about seeking immortality that had to do with epic quests which were pretty much left up to the DM to figure out. Then the Immortal rules jumped almost straight into statting up an immortal character which was basicly a minor god. The immortals then advanced in the same way as mortal PCs to bigger better faster immortals by doing quests of godlike proportions. Fighting demons from beyond and unraveling the mysteries of the universe and stuff like that.
It's just that the actual point of transformation from mortal to immortal was never all that clear. We rarely had immortal characters who'd been mortals. Usually we just made up new characters when we started an immortal campaign.
I can't see why we'd give any reality any weight over any other.
The major difference is that in one of them, the story was resolved.
The major difference is that in one of them, the story was resolved.
We have a different definition of "resolved" obviously. How many times did Raistlin reappear in your resolved story?
In the timeline where he became a God, that was the end. Period. Resolution. In the novel reality, he kept appearing continually thereafter.
I can't see why we'd give any reality any weight over any other.
I can. The timeline where Raistlin was a god was given a couple of pages of screen time. Can you count how many pages the base timeline has been given? :whatsthis
I can. The timeline where Raistlin was a god was given a couple of pages of screen time. Can you count how many pages the base timeline has been given? :whatsthis
So you're suggesting one has more focus then the other. Ok, I agree. But both realities exist (as much as they can in a fictional world), neither one is more or less true (again from a novel's perspective) then the other.
We have a different definition of "resolved" obviously. How many times did Raistlin reappear in your resolved story?
Zero, but I suppose that begs the question of what story we're talking about. The overarching theme of Legends was of the power of mortal free will and the consequences of hubris; that story was resolved when Raistlin made his choice to save Caramon and accept his fate in the Abyss.
The continuity of the setting continued along in that universe, not the one where Raistlin took on the gods. It seems a little silly to insist that they're all "equally true."
The continuity of the universe continued along in that universe, not the one where Raistlin took on the gods. It seems a little silly to insist that they're all "equally true."
The Chronomancer's guide makes it obvious that Dragonlance exists in many realities. Each reality is similar, but not identical. In one Raistlin is a God, in another he's not, etc. Just like real life according to modern day quantum physics
In several points of time various realities intersect.
But all of this is irrelevant. The novel is a fictional work. All of those alternate realities are quite equally non-existant in any form of reality.
The Chronomancer's guide...
I will defer to people with more expertise in previous editions than I have. I mainly concern myself with the current one.
Just like real life according to modern day quantum physics
I think I studied a different form of quantum physics than you, in that case.
What is also disappointing though is that even though Raistlin has a CR of 28, there are creatures/characters with a lower CR that could destroy him because of his low stats and disappointing skills. To me, the main difference between the way he is stated out and a lvl 20 mage right now is that he has auto quicken spells for spells of lvl 3 and lower, and a lvl 10 spell slot. But then, a maximized delay blast fireball is no stronger than the empowered horrid wilting that Dalamar can throw with his Black Robe Order ability.
What is also disappointing though is that even though Raistlin has a CR of 28, there are creatures/characters with a lower CR that could destroy him because of his low stats and disappointing skills.
Raistlin would never pass muster on the WOTC optimization board, you are correct. But then again, he thought magic items were a crutch, and he was a frail individual all the way up until the point at which his stats represent him. Kharas almost killed him with a single blow.
He's as good as he says he is, and how good he is means he can still wipe the floor with the other mages in the Conclave. I was the one who wrote their stats, also.
Cheers,
Cam
I suppose one should keep in mind they are just wrote by other fans (who happen to work for WotC or what-have-you). They may have one vision from a character, from having read the same novels we have, and we might have another. And unless that fictional character was based off one of their own RPG characters, and all of their fictionalised events also (to ensure a caracter with X stats could actually defeat Y creatute in game terms), then their view of the stats is no more perfect then ours. They're just paid to do the same thing.
What interests me, is this, how do they choose these skills? We heard one person complaining Raistlin's were low. Is it an arbitrary selection, a council vote, how does it work.
Anyway, no defence to any of the game designers. They allow us to be lazy, in that they are doing the work we'd have to do otherwise.
Raistlin would never pass muster on the WOTC optimization board, you are correct. But then again, he thought magic items were a crutch...
Cam said that? Cam Banks? Oh my god.
There seems to be this odd mixup floating around about that one particular thing that I've always tried to correct, but it infects more and more people all the time.
It was not Raistlin. Raistlin didn't abhor magic items. Raistlin even had warding runes on his robes.
It was Fistandantilus. Fistandantilus thought magic items were a crutch.
I know it's easy to get the two mixed up, but it really was Fistandantilus and not Raistlin.
Damn. I don't have Legends of the Twins yet, but I really really hope that that didn't get into any Raistlin info.
It's not the same thing?
"Plot Device" is far from a "bad argument". It means that to worry about the rules governing the thing in question is to miss the point, which is pretty much what Cam just said.
Everything's a "plot point" in a book. And I'm not repeating myself. Read what I said about this in my original post. Then have a nice day.
It was Fistandantilus. Fistandantilus thought magic items were a crutch.
Hmmm, didn't Fisty need that stone to steal the souls from his apprentices? What a hypocrite. HAHAHAHAHA
Hmmm, didn't Fisty need that stone to steal the souls from his apprentices? What a hypocrite. HAHAHAHAHA
You don't think that was a crutch? He would have died without it. ;)
Cam said that? Cam Banks? Oh my god.
There seems to be this odd mixup floating around about that one particular thing that I've always tried to correct, but it infects more and more people all the time.
It's not a mixup. Magic items were "scorned" by Raistlin as being "fit only for weaklings." Rings, pendants, etc. The chest he took along with him in War of the Twins has the night-blue binding spellbooks and the dragon orb, and that's about it. Raistlin wouldn't dream of loading himself up with trinkets and charms when he's got the Staff of Magius and the orb at his disposal.
I get my stuff from the source, you know.
Cheers,
Cam
Raistlin would never pass muster on the WOTC optimization board, you are correct.
No, he wouldn't, and the game shouldnt really be about optimization, but if he's not going to be capable of really fighting as a CR 28 (in respect to other monsters) why claim him as such. To me, it feels like you threw us a bone (by acknowledging that he is in theory that strong), but also made sure that it was hollow.
But then again, he thought magic items were a crutch, and he was a frail individual all the way up until the point at which his stats represent him. Kharas almost killed him with a single blow.
Yes, but like him becoming a god, that single blow is also a "plot device." Ariakas has over 200 hitpoints and Tanis kills him with a single sword thrust. By that reasoning, Ariakas should only have about 30 hitpoints or so.
Also keep in mind that Raistlin was doomed to have history repeat itself; Fisty was deeply wounded and it was required for Raistlin to suffer the same fate.
I'm not saying that Raistlin wasn't frail, and to be honest I don't begrudge the hitpoints you gave him ( though it seemed like he did take quite a bit of damage with his battle against Fisty) but I think you really made up your decision on Raist's hitpoints based on that one encounter with Kharas and I wouldn't say that that's fair.
He's as good as he says he is, and how good he is means he can still wipe the floor with the other mages in the Conclave. I was the one who wrote their stats, also.
I wouldn't say that.
"'I don't give a damn about the world!' he said softly. 'I could rule it tommorrow if I wanted it! I don't'"
-Raistlin to Kitiara in Time of the Twins
Raistlin said he could take over the world PRIOR to merging with Fisty. Sorry, but even the lvl 27 stats he had AFTER his merge with Fisty doesn't support that. And while he is individually stronger than any of the Conclave members stated out, thats besides the point. Raistlin was stronger than all the Conclave put together...so much so that they lived in fear of him (and again this was PRIOR to him going back in time). The way the stats go (AFTER the merge)... Raistlin would STILL be hard pressed to take them all on stated as he is; In a battle between Raistlin and the 3 order mages, it'll come to a matter of who gets off what spells first.
"'I don't give a damn about the world!' he said softly. 'I could rule it tommorrow if I wanted it! I don't'"
-Raistlin to Kitiara in Time of the Twins
Raistlin said he could take over the world PRIOR to merging with Fisty. Sorry, but even the lvl 27 stats he had AFTER his merge with Fisty doesn't support that. And while he is individually stronger than any of the Conclave members stated out, thats besides the point. Raistlin was stronger than all the Conclave put together...so much so that they lived in fear of him (and again this was PRIOR to him going back in time). The way the stats go (AFTER the merge)... Raistlin would STILL be hard pressed to take them all on stated as he is; In a battle between Raistlin and the 3 order mages, it'll come to a matter of who gets off what spells first.
I think one of the points you are missing is the authors actually roleplayed the Dragonlance characters and the story reflected this. The rules were 1st edition and in the hardcover book the level limit was 18 for all characters. The gods would not let anyone advance past level 18 after Raistlin. In first edition raistlin was around level 23 at the end of the Time of the Twins. That was five levels higher then anyone else in the world. He also had some of the most powerful artifacts in the world (including control of a tower) and he had the knowledge and power that Fisty gave him.
When you look at it in the old version of Dragonlance you can see why he would feel he was a god. In 1st and 2nd edition....wizards were far more powerful then any other class at high level. There was nothing that could really stand against a high level wizard except another high level wizard. Now have a wizard 5 levels or so higher then "EVERY" other wizard in the world. The only few wizards at level 18 were the heads of each order. One of each. So do you understand why he was such a "bad arse" in Krynn?
I think one of the points you are missing is the authors actually roleplayed the Dragonlance characters and the story reflected this.
Well, I don't know all the details, I would guess the novelised characters were based on characters that were played. I don't think that proves the possibility of all actions in the novels.
Unless the novels just retell adventures that did happen. Of course, the DM drastically effects what characters can and cannot do (disregarding their stats).
A DM can let the impossible happen.
The rules were 1st edition and in the hardcover book the level limit was 18 for all characters.
1st edition D&D? Or 1st edition of the Dragonlance campaign setting? I don't know, so I'm just asking.
So do you understand why he was such a "bad arse" in Krynn?
Lafarallin, I think you misunderstood me. I do think he's very powerful...especially novel wise. I just dont think they did him justice on the 3rd edition game.
Well, I don't know all the details, I would guess the novelised characters were based on characters that were played. I don't think that proves the possibility of all actions in the novels.
Unless the novels just retell adventures that did happen. Of course, the DM drastically effects what characters can and cannot do (disregarding their stats).
A DM can let the impossible happen.
I don't recall where I read they ran parts of the story for friends, actions players made actually influenced what happened in their novels.
For example: They stated that Raistlin charming Bupu (the gully dwarf, not sure on spelling), was what a character did. That was not something they originally thought of writing in the story. That is only one example I can remember. It has been a LONG time.
1st edition D&D? Or 1st edition of the Dragonlance campaign setting? I don't know, so I'm just asking.
The hardcover book was based on 1st Edition AD&D rules if I recall correctly. I got this book before the Forgotten Realms box set came out.
Lafarallin, I think you misunderstood me. I do think he's very powerful...especially novel wise. I just dont think they did him justice on the 3rd edition game.
No I understand what you're getting at. The problem is many of the 1st and 2nd Edition rules don't transfer over very well. Krynn was really a 1st edition world altered slightly for 2nd edition. It was an under powered world even then. There were articles in "Dragon" that had wizards from different worlds meeting up. They were called "World Watchers" and the three I remember were Mordenkanen from Greyhawk, Dalamar from Krynn and Elminister from Toril.
There was a funny episode where Dalamar came to visit and ran into the Simbul who was with Elminister. Dalamar said something kind of cocky and Elminister warned Dalamar when the Simbul left to watch what he said next time or she might "take offense". Dalamar makes some comment like "I'm a big bad arse and head of the Black Robes!" Elmininster basically laughs and says, "She would waste you." Dalamar then throws a tantrum yelling, "Is every wizard in your world more powerful then me?" I'm basically para-phrasing most of this but that was the main idea of the article. Dalamar was considered the most powerful wizard in Krynn and he paled in comparison to many wizards of other worlds.
So when you compare 1st/2nd Edition Dragonlance to other game worlds it had far lower level characters. Most of the heroes of the lance were around level 13. None of them reached the max level of 18 for that campaign world except for Raistlin. Compare this to other characters from other worlds and they are very underpowered. Now you translate all this to 3.0 or 3.5 and it just doesn't transfer well.
The hardcover book was based on 1st Edition AD&D rules if I recall correctly. I got this book before the Forgotten Realms box set came out.
Someone said that the Gods in Krynn limited player's levels. I guess that wasn't true? Or was that how the Dragonlance campaign setting explained the D&D limitation on level?
Someone said that the Gods in Krynn limited player's levels. I guess that wasn't true? Or was that how the Dragonlance campaign setting explained the D&D limitation on level?
Yes that is true. The gods in Krynn did restrict character's levels to 18 max. I believe this happened after Raistlin almost became a god. If I recall the book said if you had a character over level 18 you would need to drop it to level 18 or move to another world. It has been awhile but level 18 was definately the level cap enforced by the gods in Krynn.
Yes that is true. The gods in Krynn did restrict character's levels to 18 max. I believe this happened after Raistlin almost became a god. If I recall the book said if you had a character over level 18 you would need to drop it to level 18 or move to another world. It has been awhile but level 18 was definately the level cap enforced by the gods in Krynn.
NO this was not after Raistlin, or was it a rule. The rule said that you went to live with the gods, unless one of them let you stay(Ariakas) or you were powerful enough to stay on your own(Raistlin).
And said rule is now moot, it is not a part of the newest edition of the game, at least not that I've seen.
It is not a moot point. We're discussing why Raistlin was not all powerful compared to other characters, in other worlds. That is the reason as far as I can discern it.
That said, Raist really did get hosed. And yes, I do recall the thing about Dalamar. But that, you see, is the thing about Dalamar. He's given up a lot to be merely lackluster, something the character is painfully aware of.
Raistlin is another story altogether. Sure back in the day, Dragonlance was (and is) a nerfed campaign setting, that's just the spirit of the rules, if you don't like it, then maybe this campaign setting isn't for you.
However, on thing DL had back in those days was a quality over quantity kind of attitude over its epic characters. The Dragon Empiror was a Gish among Gishes, Raist was not one archmage, but two.
And, it was this world, out of all the prime worlds in the multiverse, was the world that held the primordial diety Chaos trapped. This was one possible reason why planar travel was so restricted on Krynn (other than the attempts to limit the spread of Kender and Krynnish gnomes).
Yes that is true. The gods in Krynn did restrict character's levels to 18 max. I believe this happened after Raistlin almost became a god. If I recall the book said if you had a character over level 18 you would need to drop it to level 18 or move to another world. It has been awhile but level 18 was definately the level cap enforced by the gods in Krynn.
Was this in the campaign setting rulebook? When was this rule changed?
I don't recall where I read they ran parts of the story for friends, actions players made actually influenced what happened in their novels.
For example: They stated that Raistlin charming Bupu (the gully dwarf, not sure on spelling), was what a character did. That was not something they originally thought of writing in the story. That is only one example I can remember. It has been a LONG time.
IIRC, the whole thing with Raistlin always speaking in a raspy whisper also came up at the table -- and led them to think, "Whoa, that's cool, it's like 'low-key freak'; we never would've come up with that, but it's going in the book. It makes his sarcasm into something bitter and pitiable."
Was this in the campaign setting rulebook? When was this rule changed?
It didn't make it into 3rd edition (or 3.5). Truthfully I don't recall if it was in 2nd.
It didn't make it into 3rd edition (or 3.5). Truthfully I don't recall if it was in 2nd.
It was only ever a rule in the Dragonlance Adventures hardcover, for 1st edition AD&D. It didn't appear in any materials prior to that or afterward, and like many 1st edition conventions it either was ignored in 2nd edition or not considered for the 3rd edition DLCS.
One of the good things about published game stats is that it's easier to add magic items than to remove them. Throw on a series of stat boosting items (like amulets of health or headbands of intellect) and Raistlin might be able to pwn the un1v3rz, d00dz.
Cheers,
Cam
You don't think that was a crutch? He would have died without it. ;)
That's exactly what I'm sayin', he considered magic items a crutch, yet he couldn't survive without the use of a major one. He's a total hypocrite :D
That's exactly what I'm sayin', he considered magic items a crutch, yet he couldn't survive without the use of a major one. He's a total hypocrite :D
I'm still trying to figure out Cam's take on this: "Raistlin wouldn't dream of loading himself up with trinkets and charms when he's got the Staff of Magius and the orb at his disposal." Uh, yeah. He uses magical items. Constantly. Because he's a guy who needs crutches. That's not hypocrisy; that's the whole point of a crutch.
It's not a mixup...I get my stuff from the source, you know.
So wait, do you mean that it's been retconned so that it's now Raistlin, or both him and Fistandantilus? Or what? Because that doesn't really make any sense.
That was the thing that really separated them. Fistandantilus was the overly arrogant one who got surprised by Raistlin, who wasn't shy of using any means necessary to win.
There were articles in "Dragon" that had wizards from different worlds meeting up. They were called "World Watchers" and the three I remember were Mordenkanen from Greyhawk, Dalamar from Krynn and Elminister from Toril.
That was The Wizards Three. I wouldn't exactly call an article that refers to Dalamar as a drow who lives underground accurate in any way.
So wait, do you mean that it's been retconned so that it's now Raistlin, or both him and Fistandantilus? Or what? Because that doesn't really make any sense.
How is it a retcon when it's actually in the book?
They're both as arrogant as each other, especially after Raistlin goes back to Istar to take him on. Which is something of a hint about how that really came out.
Cheers,
Cam
So wait, do you mean that it's been retconned so that it's now Raistlin, or both him and Fistandantilus? Or what? Because that doesn't really make any sense.
That was the thing that really separated them. Fistandantilus was the overly arrogant one who got surprised by Raistlin, who wasn't shy of using any means necessary to win.
That was The Wizards Three. I wouldn't exactly call an article that refers to Dalamar as a drow who lives underground accurate in any way.
Well they were at least accurate about one thing, "The Simbul" could obliterate Dalamar.
How is it a retcon when it's actually in the book?
Where exactly does it say that Raistlin also abhorred magic items?
One of the good things about published game stats is that it's easier to add magic items than to remove them. Throw on a series of stat boosting items (like amulets of health or headbands of intellect) and Raistlin might be able to pwn the un1v3rz, d00dz.
Cheers,
Cam
Thanks Cam, I needed that laugh. :D Fanwank leet. Teh awesum.
Where exactly does it say that Raistlin also abhorred magic items?
Im unsure as to if its in any of the sourcebooks, but I know that the novels (Im thinking War of the Twins specifically) made this statement.
Especially since, again, he carries around the Staff of Magius.
I'm still trying to figure out Cam's take on this: "Raistlin wouldn't dream of loading himself up with trinkets and charms when he's got the Staff of Magius and the orb at his disposal." Uh, yeah. He uses magical items. Constantly. Because he's a guy who needs crutches. That's not hypocrisy; that's the whole point of a crutch.
I was talking about Fisty being a hypocrite for using a magic item (the stone) to keep himself alive. Nevermind, you guys are too serious and touchy to get a joke.
Where exactly does it say that Raistlin also abhorred magic items?
In War of the Twins, when Raistlin is opening the chest that contains his spellbooks and the dragon orb, prior to using the orb to scry into the future and speak with Dalamar.
It's apparent from the comment about trinkets and amulets being for lesser mages that he felt only true items of power were worth his attention. No headbands of intellect and slippers of spider climbing for him.
Cheers,
Cam
No headbands of intellect and slippers of spider climbing for him.
Cam
I agree with you there. Which is why I would be opposed to beefing him up by adding magic items as you had suggested earlier. But that he was capable of doing what he did (or would have done) WITHOUT such items makes it all the more remarkable...and why I don't feel his official stats gives him justice.
In War of the Twins, when Raistlin is opening the chest that contains his spellbooks and the dragon orb, prior to using the orb to scry into the future and speak with Dalamar.
It's apparent from the comment about trinkets...
Aaah. Well that part actually makes the whole thing pretty straightforward. It doesn't say "magic items" or "trinkets". It clearly singles out rings and pendants.
Rings and pendants. :thumbsdow
If in FR, the Raistlin does not have the Curse of the Magi, is not bound by the Weave in any way, and is also not restricted as much in his time travelling, because there is no river of time in FR, and thus he could change things as he see's fit.
In the first example, Raistlin stays the same, but he also knows that he stays the same, while the others get much weaker, and probably do not understand why. Plus he can always say, hey Dalamar, tell the conclave I've found some really nasty renegades. . .
In the second example, Raistlin get really, really powerful, but in ways the others could not anticipate, and not defend against. They however, (considering they where ever born now), do not change at all.
So, in all honesty, whould even stand a chance against him? He didn't beat a goddess, he outsmarted her and conned an enemy to do most of his dirty work, then he destroyed her!
If in FR, the Raistlin does not have the Curse of the Magi, is not bound by the Weave in any way
In any way? It is my understanding that without the weave, wizard spellcasting *Cannot* take place.
I've also read that Mystra can deny spells. People like Elminister are good friends of Mystra. Would she really let Raistlin cast against him?
Plus he can always say, hey Dalamar, tell the conclave I've found some really nasty renegades. . .
I seem to recall reading that Raistlin was a renegade also. So calling in favours of the conclave probably won't work.
Yes yes, in time/test/war of the twins it talks about Raistlin's empty chair in the conclace. Inconsistencies are a pain aren't they.
In the second example, Raistlin get really, really powerful
Why would he gain anything?
So, in all honesty, whould even stand a chance against him? He didn't beat a goddess, he outsmarted her and conned an enemy to do most of his dirty work, then he destroyed her!
He beat Takhisis because some author said he did.
I really don't think its possible to kill someone who can see the future (see Astinus' remark about seeing the future being the realm of Gods in Time of the Twins). Nor do I think a person of < 30 intelligence could outsmart or trick a God. That would be like me 2 year old son outsmarting me in the long run.
He beat Takhisis because some author said he did.
All of this stuff happens because some author says it does. I'm not sure this is a valid line of argument.
Cheers,
Cam
All of this stuff happens because some author says it does. I'm not sure this is a valid line of argument.
Because arguing what Raistlin can and cannot do in relation to fictional characters of other realms because some author favorable to that character said he did something is a bit silly.
Raistlin is not real. Nor or those he might fight that they prepose. So isn't it a bit silly saying who would and would not win?
Author #1 would say Elminister would win
Author #2 would say Raistlin would win
Is either one more correct? No, of course not.
The only possible logical approach is to look at their stats (only), and Raistlin is short about 10 levels.
All of this stuff happens because some author says it does. I'm not sure this is a valid line of argument.
Cheers,
Cam
Which is why it's irksome when you use it in other debates.;)
I know there have been situations when characters I have played have overcome near impossible odds and other times we have been routed by enemies we should have crushed easily. Underdog sports teams/individuals upset teams/individuals that are heavily favored all the time. Simply looking at stats tells you who should be favored but not necessarily who will win.
My point is that nobody (except perhaps an author writing a story) can say with absolute certainty who would win the outcome of any duel.
Which is why it's irksome when you use it in other debates.;)
Of course, but then I'm allowed to. ;)
Cheers,
Cam
Simply looking at stats tells you who should be favored but not necessarily who will win.
Right. Of course, but since the possible circumstances are infinite, we can't reliably use those.
For every "what if" situation I could give, the counter argument for or against a character could give five "what ifs" in response.
The only possible logical approach is to look at their stats (only), and Raistlin is short about 10 levels.
Elminster edges out Raistlin on caster level by about one or two levels, tops. Elminster's CR is beefed up by levels in fighter, rogue, and cleric, which are only there because Ed made him dip into these professions when he was a kid. Caster-wise, he's a Chosen of Mystra wizard 24/archmage 5, so not a whole lot off.
Cheers,
Cam
Elminster edges out Raistlin on caster level by about one or two levels, tops. Elminster's CR is beefed up by levels in fighter, rogue, and cleric, which are only there because Ed made him dip into these professions when he was a kid. Caster-wise, he's a Chosen of Mystra wizard 24/archmage 5, so not a whole lot off.
I think I have a sourcebook where he's well over 30. And since he has other classes, that means he has a lot more hit points.
I think I have a sourcebook where he's well over 30. And since he has other classes, that means he has a lot more hit points.
CL 29 in FRCS and Epic Level Handbook, and I don't think it ever changed after that.
He also has a lot more hit points because the Chosen of Mystra template gives him a +10 Constitution.
Cheers,
Cam
CHe also has a lot more hit points because the Chosen of Mystra template gives him a +10 Constitution.
Levels in fighter wouldn't hurt either.
My point is those extra hit points would be a big advantage.
Of course, but then I'm allowed to. ;)
Cheers,
Cam
And that's where we disagree. You're not allowed, really!
And that's where we disagree. You're not allowed, really!
It says right here on page XX that I am. Can't refute that.
It's still a silly argument. But I think we're all past that point of dissention!
Cheers,
Cam
It says right here on page XX that I am. Can't refute that.
It's still a silly argument. But I think we're all past that point of dissention!
Cheers,
Cam
Show the whole clip....
"It says right here on page XX........you know that book I wrote?"
And usually from others.....
"It says so right here on page XX..."
"Well, we're setting {such in such} aside for now..."
AAaaaaargh!
AAaaaaargh!
Yes. If only you knew the deep and lasting internal conflict we feel about this very subject and how we wish we could tell you everything and give you all the answers, etc etc.
Cheers,
Cam
According to Dragonlance Wizards, the magic comes from both learning to focus your will on the rest of the world, and being able to sacrafice a part of your soul without recieving anything back. In FR, you just learn to manipulate the Weave. So, in essence, Raistlin would be using a third type of Arcane magic if he were in FR, lets call it the Raist Weave. Additionally, I think being backed by three versions of Mystra sort of outdoes Mystra's "I control the Weave" line anyway. Remember that Raistlin is the chosen of all three DL Magic deities, (not Chosen).
Right. Of course, but since the possible circumstances are infinite, we can't reliably use those.
For every "what if" situation I could give, the counter argument for or against a character could give five "what ifs" in response.
My point exactly!
Yes. If only you knew the deep and lasting internal conflict we feel about this very subject and how we wish we could tell you everything and give you all the answers, etc etc.
Cheers,
Cam
Yeah.... Am I out of touch? No, no, its the people who are to blame!:P
Elminster edges out Raistlin on caster level by about one or two levels, tops. Elminster's CR is beefed up by levels in fighter, rogue, and cleric, which are only there because Ed made him dip into these professions when he was a kid. Caster-wise, he's a Chosen of Mystra wizard 24/archmage 5, so not a whole lot off.
Cheers,
Cam
El has 29 caster lvls true...but those other lvls in other classes do add a LOT...you cant just disregard that...more hitpoints...more feats, more stats, etc. After all... pure caster lvls doesnt have much of an effect on how power a spell is cast when you get that high. Heck, its what makes El so strong in the FR...there are several in the FR that has more pure caster lvls...Simbul, Halaster..etc. But i digress on that... even just looking at El and just as a caster...its hardly a contest...El's spells are much harder to resist at 21 + caster lvl than 17 + caster lvl. El's based stats, including intelligence, are also MUCH higher than Raists. And on top of that... yes those 2 caster lvls just puts El way over the top in a one on one fight... and thats really unfortunate as even Ed Greenwood pointed out... Elminster is far from the strongest in the Forgotten Realm world.
But i digress on that... even just looking at El and just as a caster...its hardly a contest...
Why not grab a friend, give him one of the two, and take the other one, and just go at it with the two wizards to see how they get on in a one-on-one fight.
Try it without Elminster's Chosen template benefits, which he'd not get on Krynn, and then try it without Raistlin's Master of the Tower benefits (those that don't work outside of the Tower).
I'd be keen to know just how little a contest it ends up being in actual play.
Cheers,
Cam
Why not grab a friend, give him one of the two, and take the other one, and just go at it with the two wizards to see how they get on in a one-on-one fight.
Try it without Elminster's Chosen template benefits, which he'd not get on Krynn, and then try it without Raistlin's Master of the Tower benefits (those that don't work outside of the Tower).
I'd be keen to know just how little a contest it ends up being in actual play.
Cheers,
Cam
Does that include El being able to cast lvl 14 spells...as in twin energy drains/meteor swarms? And while they may be argued that on Krynn (the scenario you set up), the contest is closer (though still favoring El), being in the FR is a blow away. Also while it can be argued that Elminster would loose his Chosen template, what about others like Szass Tam who wouldnt be changed and who can cast lvl 16 spells (quicken maximized energy drain ...yikes!).
Does that include El being able to cast lvl 14 spells...as in twin energy drains/meteor swarms?
The version I'm looking at has him able to cast a single 10th level spell per day. I'm not sure what version you have.
Cheers,
Cam
The version I'm looking at has him able to cast a single 10th level spell per day. I'm not sure what version you have.
Cheers,
Cam
I think its the normal 3rd Edition D & D Forgotten Realm Setting book... was there a 3.5 version? Hm... what does everyone elses book say... and which versions?
I think its the normal 3rd Edition D & D Forgotten Realm Setting book... was there a 3.5 version? Hm... what does everyone elses book say... and which versions?
Cam's right, the updated version in the Epic Level Handbook has him with only 1 10th level spell. But despite that the version your looking at can't cast 14th level spells either.
On an diffrent note in the 1993 gray forgotten realmes box set Eleminster was a 29th level wizard. I always wondered where he got all those levels of other things. Probably a good reason, just one I've never heard.
I think its the normal 3rd Edition D & D Forgotten Realm Setting book... was there a 3.5 version? Hm... what does everyone elses book say... and which versions?
The Epic Level Handbook has a more recent version of Elminster, without the "Epic 4" levels of the FRCS.
Cheers,
Cam
On an diffrent note in the 1993 gray forgotten realmes box set Eleminster was a 29th level wizard. I always wondered where he got all those levels of other things. Probably a good reason, just one I've never heard.
There are a series of "Elminster" books that explains his past and where he gets his other levels, how he becomes a Chosen of Mystra, etc. They're quite good books, I like Ed Greenwood's writing style.
Cam's right, the updated version in the Epic Level Handbook has him with only 1 10th level spell. But despite that the version your looking at can't cast 14th level spells either.
Oops sorry...typo. I meant 13th
... which is still the lvl to cast twin meteors or energy drains. I havent seen the newer version yet (the one in Epic Lvl Handbook); that will probably put them on a more equal footing...though can someone tell me the main differences between the two? Thanks.Oops sorry...typo. I meant 13th
The version of Elminster in the FRCS uses a wholly different epic level system than the one in the ELH. Essentially the FRCS version just allows you to cast at much higher spell levels but doesn't allow you to cast actual epic spells.
The version of Elminster in the FRCS uses a wholly different epic level system than the one in the ELH. Essentially the FRCS version just allows you to cast at much higher spell levels but doesn't allow you to cast actual epic spells.
Forgotten Realms has 10th - 15th level spells. I believe 15th was the max, it was higher than 12th anyway.
They are covered in the Netheril boxed set. The only 15th level spell makes you a God.
Forgotten Realms has 10th - 15th level spells. I believe 15th was the max, it was higher than 12th anyway.
They are covered in the Netheril boxed set. The only 15th level spell makes you a God.
There was no maximum for spell slots higher than 9th level in the 3.0 FRCS. You could continue taking the +1 spell level "epic" benefit over and over and over again so that if you were high enough in level you could have something ridiculous, like 35th level spell slots.
My personal opinion, I agree with Clark, its not often that two mages of this magnitude get together. Why fight, why not debate topics of greater magical theory?
The thing with Raistlin, though, is that he shoots for an unfair advantage whenever possible; he'd probably have lost in a straight-up clash with Fistandantilus, but a little sleight of hand in an antimagic field went a long way for the guy with a little silver knife up his sleeve. Frankly, he had a harder time seducing a high priestess into using all that lawful good clerical might of hers to fire up the holy relic he'd researched -- though that went down pretty smoothly, too.
To cross genres for a second, he's like Batman taking on Superman: he doesn't do it with a left hook and a swift kick to the shins.
lol, so now I have to ask. Could Raistlin beat Batman?
lol, so now I have to ask. Could Raistlin beat Batman?
Batman pulls out his antimagic ring, after making his will save to resist domination, then beats the puny wizard to unconsciousness, contacts the gods via a supersecret ritual he learned from monks in the himalayas, and convinces them to place raistlin elsewhere.