Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bengeldorn Jul 23, 2006 19:49:10	Regarding the project I'm working on, I'd like to know what other people theories about the nikaals' origin are. I do have some ideas on my own, but I'm not realy happy with them. As a guidline here are some questions that should be answered. 1. Where do/did they come from? 2. Why are they now in the tablelands? / Why did they left their region of origin? 3. Why does no other race know, where they come from? / Do they know where they come from? Thanks for anyone, who'd be willing to help! Bengeldorn
#2 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 23, 2006 20:05:25	I think they come from the far eastern shores of the silt sea. I tend to think of them as a nation of traders, and they have expanded their trading radius across the silt sea, into the tablelands now. I don't believe they are a rebirth race. I tend to think (which is based off of, I want to say, a Q&A with one of the original developers, or something like that) that the Nikaal are one of the three races that actually existed in the Blue Age -- the Kreen, the Rhulisti, and the Nikaal. But I tend to see them in the Blue Age as being a not very developed society -- I'm thinking tribal organization, no technology, probably an amphibious nature as well. Since they aren't a rebirth race, there was no push by Rajaat to annihilate them, and they were overlooked completely.
#3 dirk00001 Jul 23, 2006 21:24:27	I recall something along the lines of what Xlorep said - pretty sure it's been stated semi-officially that they were around during the Blue Age. My guess is that they were amphibious and only somewhat intelligent during the Blue Age, similar to how the kreen were around but not really an "intelligent" race yet, and since then they adapted to the change in environment until they became the creatures they are today. Some things are just better at adapting than others, so my guess is the nikaal were just able to keep up with the rapidly changing environment when most other creatures died off.
#4 lurking_shadow Jul 23, 2006 22:16:33	1: The Wanderer’s Chronicle text for the Rebirth states that, due to the power of “the halflings’ glowing tower”, that era was marked by the rapid genesis of a great number of different creatures. Many wound up extinct, “but the land was generous; animals and monsters alike continued to file into the world”. My best guess is that the Nikaal were one of those. It’s also possible that the cataclysms of the Cleansing War and the darkening of the Sun spawned or mutated the nikaal, as it did with a number of other creatures (the silt horror comes to mind). And, of course, they could have been around since the Blue Age, as Xlorep and Dirk00001 said. 2: In the Brown Age, there is a rumor about a nikaal homeland beyond the Ringing Mountains (presumably in the northwester part of the known world), but this may be just a rumor. If it’s not then they probably migrated there to escape the madness of Rajaat and/or the SKs. The nikaal are described as a wandering people, so they quite possibly kept on wandering until they left the Tyr Region. 3: The Tablelanders do not know much about the nikaal because the nikaal know what’s good for them. Anyway, their nomadic nature ensures minimal contact with other people, and any nikaal homeland is probably too far away. I’m not sure if they are truly aware of how and why their race was born; even the elves remember their past only as allegorical myth. Knowledge of a homeland may also be fuzzy, if the wandering tribes do not return there often.
#5 Pennarin Jul 23, 2006 22:47:11	Steve Bell runs a wesbite that hosts 3E material (years ago it was in 2E format) using the kreen, halflings, and nikaal as the three base bloodlines of Athas, from which everything else stems. He used that concept to come up with basic abilities for all three that, depending on the bloodline chosen, a DM can gift to a New Race creature, be it born of the desert, the Tower, or some other process/place that changes creatures.
#6 zombiegleemax Jul 24, 2006 8:26:47	I really don't like the idea that there were three races in the Blue Age. It seems to "clutter" what was otherwise a mono-racial and mono-cultural Age. I liked how the Rebirth was a truly "Out of one, many" style of event. I really detested learning that kreen are a Blue Age race. And now the nikaal.... Ah, well, I must admit it fits. Almost all sentient races and non-sentient creatures on Athas come from either mammals, insects, or reptiles. As birds're really just niftily-evolved reptiles, it does fit, the nikaal being Blue Agers..... --still, I dislike the idea IMMENSELY NB
#7 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 24, 2006 9:39:47	I really don't like the idea that there were three races in the Blue Age. It seems to "clutter" what was otherwise a mono-racial and mono-cultural Age. I liked how the Rebirth was a truly "Out of one, many" style of event. I really detested learning that kreen are a Blue Age race. And now the nikaal.... Ah, well, I must admit it fits. Almost all sentient races and non-sentient creatures on Athas come from either mammals, insects, or reptiles. As birds're really just niftily-evolved reptiles, it does fit, the nikaal being Blue Agers..... --still, I dislike the idea IMMENSELY NB Well, to me, the Rhulisti were easily the most dominant and advanced of the Blue Age races. I don't even consider the Kreen as sentient at that point (since I tend to think they were modified by the nature-benders to suit their purposes later), but the predecessors to the Kreen were still there (basically something like the Trin). I see the Nikaal as something only in a very localized area, and just beginning as a culture/race of sentients at the end of the Blue Age. The Rhulisti may not have even acknoowledged them as a sentient species at that point. The results are that basically, the Rhulisti were "the" sentient Blue Age race. It is just that two other races also can trace back to the Blue Age. For me, this helps break up the whole "pristine tower does everything" mentality. Throw in the notion that the Gith were once Githzerai or Githyanki and were radically de-evolved to their current state (I still say that if there was any race that could possibly have slipped into the Gray from the outside, it would be the Githyanki), and you end up with a small assortment of races that were not created during the Rebirth.
#8 cnahumck Jul 24, 2006 11:15:56	The results are that basically, the Rhulisti were "the" sentient Blue Age race. It is just that two other races also can trace back to the Blue Age. For me, this helps break up the whole "pristine tower does everything" mentality. Throw in the notion that the Gith were once Githzerai or Githyanki and were radically de-evolved to their current state (I still say that if there was any race that could possibly have slipped into the Gray from the outside, it would be the Githyanki), and you end up with a small assortment of races that were not created during the Rebirth. The material in the Black Spine Mountains adventure goes along these route. I am a fan of everything in the tablelands having been desended from halflings, but everywhere else is up for grabs. You have quite a lot of time and space to work with.
#9 dirk00001 Jul 24, 2006 13:54:23	AFAIK the only modern-day races that existed in the Blue Age are the halfings, the kreen (that's according to the Thri-Kreen of Athas sourcebook and maybe the Wanderer's Chronicle as well, although I'm not sure about that), and the dolphins found in the Last Sea (*sigh*)
#10 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 24, 2006 15:18:17	The material in the Black Spine Mountains adventure goes along these route. I am a fan of everything in the tablelands having been desended from halflings, but everywhere else is up for grabs. You have quite a lot of time and space to work with. I put a few very small hints at various little details like that in my campaigns. For instance, I have made all the races in my version of Dark Sun be "naturally psionic" (they have 1 - 3 power points, and access to the psionic feats), except the Gith, which I have them being the only race that isn't naturally psionic -- the "Psionic Bomb" totally destroyed their ability to innately have psionic abilities. They can still take psionic classes, but they don't start with anything for free.
#11 lurking_shadow Jul 24, 2006 17:43:03	and you end up with a small assortment of races that were not created during the Rebirth. Just to be clear, I don’t think that the nikaal were a Rebirth race in the sense that they are descendants of rhulisti. Athas went through two tremendous changes, at the Rebirth – when oceans gave way to green lands – and at the Cleansing Wars – when the lands turned to desert and the remaining oceans turned into silt. The consequence of that should have been the total annihilation of the world’s life forms, but Athas still wound up with scores of creatures that are well adapted to the new environment. Evolution certainly isn’t that quick; the changes happened within a timeframe of less than fifteen thousand years. Something helped mutate the creatures of Athas, and I believe there are three good candidates. The first is the Pristine Tower, whose powers of transmutation are well known. The second is the long rhulisti tenure as masters of Athas: their lifeshaping abilities may have made all life forms on Athas more susceptible to mutation. Third is the huge amount of raw energy released by the Cleansing Wars into the environment: ever thought about what happens to the life energy leeched by defiler spells after the spell is over? Since this is a fantasy setting, it’s entirely possible that this energy disperses into the world and acts like radiation was believed to act in the 50s and 60s: causing genetic mutation. No matter who’s the culprit, Athasian life does mutate, and I believe the nikaal are the result of one such mutation.
#12 Pennarin Jul 25, 2006 2:02:43	I'm with Xlorep on the idea that, albeit there were a few precursor races along with the halflings during the Blue Age, only the latter were civilized. I'm willing to think there were kreen (which is mentionned in TKoA), nikaal (from many a person's web project), and...gasp dolphins. The halflings would have become many of the Rebirth races through using the Tower, and the other races with the reptilian subtype would have come from mutations to the nikaal.
#13 dirk00001 Jul 25, 2006 10:24:48	The halflings would have become many of the Rebirth races through using the Tower, and the other races with the reptilian subtype would have come from mutations to the nikaal. Good thought, although I think there's more than enough written material to assume that the lizardmen came from halfling stock; for one, IMO at least, Rajaat's selection of Rebirth races to destroy were all specifically from halfling stock. On the other hand, there seems to be a pretty clear delineation between "Rebirth races" (which tends to refer to the civilization-building races) and "other creatures;" perhaps nikaal mutations from the PT resulted in many of the reptilian (and similar) creatures that made up the "unintelligent" creatures of the Rebirth, while kreen mutations likewise resulted in the insectoid (and similar) creatures. If you also assume that some of the Rhulisti changed into unintelligent mamallian creatures, I think we've got all the basics covered. (Except for plants, but those were around during the Blue Age and we also know that the PT can cause creatures to mutate into plants anyway, so that's still covered).
#14 cnahumck Jul 25, 2006 15:42:03	hate to bring this up, but Rajaat does make mention of exterminating the new races when he is freed from the Hollow. I don't have the exact quote, but it is in the first chapter (maybe prolouge) of PP5.
#15 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 25, 2006 16:04:17	Good thought, although I think there's more than enough written material to assume that the lizardmen came from halfling stock; for one, IMO at least, Rajaat's selection of Rebirth races to destroy were all specifically from halfling stock. On the other hand, there seems to be a pretty clear delineation between "Rebirth races" (which tends to refer to the civilization-building races) and "other creatures;" perhaps nikaal mutations from the PT resulted in many of the reptilian (and similar) creatures that made up the "unintelligent" creatures of the Rebirth, while kreen mutations likewise resulted in the insectoid (and similar) creatures. If you also assume that some of the Rhulisti changed into unintelligent mamallian creatures, I think we've got all the basics covered. (Except for plants, but those were around during the Blue Age and we also know that the PT can cause creatures to mutate into plants anyway, so that's still covered). I'd say not every reptillian race came from the Nikaal. In fact, I really only consider the Nikaal and the Ssurians (which I believe are supposed to be related in the lore) as being the known variants of the Nikaal species. hate to bring this up, but Rajaat does make mention of exterminating the new races when he is freed from the Hollow. I don't have the exact quote, but it is in the first chapter (maybe prolouge) of PP5. Actually, it's capitalized, the "New Races". as in, creatures that have been radically mutated by the effects of being within proximity of the Pristine Tower. He also hates halfbreeds.
#16 bengeldorn Jul 25, 2006 21:13:31	It seems that this thread is going to a direction, where I actully didn't want it to go, so I'm going to make some comments about the related stuff presented. I think they come from the far eastern shores of the silt sea. I tend to think of them as a nation of traders, and they have expanded their trading radius across the silt sea, into the tablelands now. I don't believe they are a rebirth race. I tend to think (which is based off of, I want to say, a Q&A with one of the original developers, or something like that) that the Nikaal are one of the three races that actually existed in the Blue Age -- the Kreen, the Rhulisti, and the Nikaal. But I tend to see them in the Blue Age as being a not very developed society -- I'm thinking tribal organization, no technology, probably an amphibious nature as well. Since they aren't a rebirth race, there was no push by Rajaat to annihilate them, and they were overlooked completely. 1. This is an option I actually haven't thought about. Unfortunatelly, the question would be, how did they get from the eastern shores of the silt sea to the western one, and why do "some Athasians believe there is a nikaal himeland beyond the Ringing Mountains" (MC2, p72)? 2. I had this idea too (except for the "across the silt sea"-part). This seemed the easiest way to explain the nikaals' origin, or better why no one realy knows where they do come from. 3. Although I tend to the agree on the point that nikaals are an "original race", I have some problems with them being the source of other reptilian races, as IIRC there have been other reptilien races around the tablelands, before the nikaals showed up there. 1: The Wanderer’s Chronicle text for the Rebirth states that, due to the power of “the halflings’ glowing tower”, that era was marked by the rapid genesis of a great number of different creatures. Many wound up extinct, “but the land was generous; animals and monsters alike continued to file into the world”. My best guess is that the Nikaal were one of those. It’s also possible that the cataclysms of the Cleansing War and the darkening of the Sun spawned or mutated the nikaal, as it did with a number of other creatures (the silt horror comes to mind). And, of course, they could have been around since the Blue Age, as Xlorep and Dirk00001 said. 2: In the Brown Age, there is a rumor about a nikaal homeland beyond the Ringing Mountains (presumably in the northwester part of the known world), but this may be just a rumor. If it’s not then they probably migrated there to escape the madness of Rajaat and/or the SKs. The nikaal are described as a wandering people, so they quite possibly kept on wandering until they left the Tyr Region. 3: The Tablelanders do not know much about the nikaal because the nikaal know what’s good for them. Anyway, their nomadic nature ensures minimal contact with other people, and any nikaal homeland is probably too far away. I’m not sure if they are truly aware of how and why their race was born; even the elves remember their past only as allegorical myth. Knowledge of a homeland may also be fuzzy, if the wandering tribes do not return there often. 1. Actually these are three theories. Although i apriciate that you have thought about the problem, it would have helped me more, if you have kept to one so that I could see what your actuall opinion about this topic is. Although, nikaals escaping from the Cleansing Wars is an idea, I haven't thought of. This could solve my problem with nikaals being an "original race" and other reptilian races showing up in the tablelands before the nikaals "returend". Unfortunatelly, if the nikaals have been an "original race" and other reptilian races had spawn form them, than there would have been champions that should extinguish these spawns (unless Rajaat would have wanted only the spawns from halflings be killed). 2. Well, the idea that nikaals have allways been wandered around, is one of my favorite ones, even if my actuall idea was that they have been in the west/northern west region beyond the Ringing Mountains. Them being escaped from the tablelands still leaves me to some problems as I mentioned before. 3. I allways thought that they willing to have contacts with other races, becomes they enjoy to trade with them. I don't actually see nikaals as a reserved race. At last here are some rough scetures of the ideas I had so far with the pros and cons of them: a) Nikaals used to have settlements in the region now known as the Kreen Empire. After a devastating lost war, they choosed to leave this region and never talk again about this dishonor. Pros: I was looking at their favorite class, and with it being fighter I allways wondered, why they choosed avoid unnecessary combats. The only answer I had for that, was that there has to be something in their past, that would have teached them to be more cautius. In addition to that, this would strenghten the rumors of the nikaal setlements beyond the Ringin Mountains. Cons: If they had a war against (thir-)kreens, nikaals would be resevered against them, but I couldn't find anything that would strengthen that idea. In addition, I can't remember, that there was anywhere said, that the kreens had any wars to build their empire. Another point, that bothered me, was that I couldn't explain how the nikaals would have reached the Hinterlands, because IIRC the Kreen Empire and the Hinterland are divided by a great barrier, that isn't that easy to climb. b) Nikaals used to wander in the Hinterlands, but as more and more trins started to attack them and/or destroy their eggs, they have been forced to leave this region. Pros:This would be in line with the rumors of nikaals coming from beyond the Ringing Mountains. In addition, this would have solved the problem, with the great barrier being climbed. Cons:The idea of nikaals laying eggs that they burrow into the earth, came to me as I made some research for reptiles. But this idea never was very appealing to me, as IMO no "intelligent" race could evolve any culture, if their scions don't grow up amongst them (unless they something like a racial memory as the kreens have). In addition, the escaping from a thread part didn't seem to be something, that a race with fighter as their favorite class would do. I had another idea of nikaals originally being an aquatic race that was forced to live on earth with the oceans receding, but none of their racial traits would strengthen this idea.
#17 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 25, 2006 21:38:48	It seems that this thread is going to a direction, where I actully didn't want it to go, so I'm going to make some comments about the related stuff presented. 1. This is an option I actually haven't thought about. Unfortunatelly, the question would be, how did they get from the eastern shores of the silt sea to the western one, and why do "some Athasians believe there is a nikaal himeland beyond the Ringing Mountains" (MC2, p72)? The original boxed set defined the ringing mountains as what people had assumed to be a series of mountains that "ringed" the silt sea & tablelands. I believe the notion was they continued on the other side. So, it is concievable that the eastern side of the silt sea, could have a mountain range that people might think of as being analogous to the ringing mountains... and they could be from there. 2. I had this idea too (except for the "across the silt sea"-part). This seemed the easiest way to explain the nikaals' origin, or better why no one realy knows where they do come from. Across the northern tip, where the two sides would potentially be closest, and then migrating south. 3. Although I tend to the agree on the point that nikaals are an "original race", I have some problems with them being the source of other reptilian races, as IIRC there have been other reptilien races around the tablelands, before the nikaals showed up there. I'm not personally fond of the notion as them being the progenetors of all reptillians. The Ssurian, sure, because the two races, if memory serves, were already outlined as being related.
#18 lurking_shadow Jul 25, 2006 23:27:30	1. Actually these are three theories. Although i apriciate that you have thought about the problem, it would have helped me more, if you have kept to one so that I could see what your actuall opinion about this topic is. As I said, my best guess is that they are the result of a wild mutation most likely caused by the Pristine Tower. I find there is a bit too much suspension of disbelief involved in them being a Blue Age race or a true Rebirth race. Them being escaped from the tablelands still leaves me to some problems as I mentioned before. The Cleansing Wars were a devastating cataclysm that lasted more than a thousand years and was perpetrated by human supremacists; the nikaals could have been made very motivated to flee the chaos of the Wars even if they were not targeted by any particular Champion. 3. I allways thought that they willing to have contacts with other races, becomes they enjoy to trade with them. I don't actually see nikaals as a reserved race. Agreed, but that doesn’t mean they are willing to share their deepest secrets with anyone. They may be congenial and cheerful around strangers, but keep certain sensitive informations to themselves for the simple purpose of survival. a) Nikaals used to have settlements in the region now known as the Kreen Empire. After a devastating lost war, they choosed to leave this region and never talk again about this dishonor. That’s an interesting idea. They may not hold grudges toward the kreen of the Tyr Region because they are aware of the difference (and feud) between thri-kreen and tohr-kreen. Or they may have fought the other four tohr-kreen races, but never tangled with jeral or tok’sa kreen. EDIT: The Crimson Savannah/Hinterland barrier is rather steep, but a determined humanoid could climb it. Kreens on the other hand cannot, since their bodies are not fit for climbing. If memory serves, only the zik-trin can reach the Jagged Cliffs region, and only because their anatomies were reshaped by the zik-chil. I'm not sure about the nikaal's climbing abilities, but fleeing to the Hinterlands is a good way of escaping the tohr-kreen.
#19 bengeldorn Jul 27, 2006 9:52:59	I'm not personally fond of the notion as them being the progenetors of all reptillians. The Ssurian, sure, because the two races, if memory serves, were already outlined as being related. Can you remember the source?
#20 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 27, 2006 10:59:47	Can you remember the source? I almost want to say it was the Monsterous Compendium entry for Ssurians. But I know I saw something on it, and that stuck in my head, because it was the only real reference to a race being related to the Nikaal.
#21 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 27, 2006 11:28:25	As I said, my best guess is that they are the result of a wild mutation most likely caused by the Pristine Tower. I find there is a bit too much suspension of disbelief involved in them being a Blue Age race or a true Rebirth race. I don't know how it is too much suspension of disbelilef for them to be a Blue Age race, really. We know next to nothing about the global dynamics during the Blue Age, other than it was covered with water, and that Halflings/Rhulisti ruled supreme. We also really only know one continent... hell... we know one part of one continent. We don't really know much about across the Silt Sea, we don't really know about the world West of the Crimson Savannah, North of the Last Sea, or South of the Deadlands. We don't know really all that much. I personally think, that in the scope of how D&D tends to function, across all versions, the notion of a world where only a single sentient race had sprung up... that is a bit harder to believe. But, as I tend to look at the Blue Age with a more "sci-fi eye", I'm willing to think that the Rhulisti were the dominant sentient life. I don't think it is a stretch of the imagination, or causes any complications at all to believe that the Nikaal could have been some sort of amphibious reptillian fledgeling race during that time -- hell, the Rhulisti could have had them on "nature preserves", to protect the Nikaal from external interference and been watching them develop. Just like I don't think it is much of an exagerration to think that the modern Kreen could have been the results of genetic manipulation caused by the old Rhulisti nature-benders -- the nature-benders were sent off in the exact same direction away from the Tyr regoin, that the Kreen Empire now resides, and the Zik-Chil seem to bear some interesting similarities in what they do, to a perverted version of lifeshaping. The Cleansing Wars were a devastating cataclysm that lasted more than a thousand years and was perpetrated by human supremacists; the nikaals could have been made very motivated to flee the chaos of the Wars even if they were not targeted by any particular Champion. That is a good point, I'll give you that. But I don't think there was an "unknown Champion" that was sent off to kill the Nikaal. There could have been human supremicists that went off on their own to hunt races like the Nikaal, however. We only know that Rajaat protected the Halflings (for the most part) from the Cleansing Wars. He could have ust not given a damn about the Nikaal (much like how he didn't give a damn about the Kreen). Agreed, but that doesn’t mean they are willing to share their deepest secrets with anyone. They may be congenial and cheerful around strangers, but keep certain sensitive informations to themselves for the simple purpose of survival. Of course. I actually think they would be putting on a "sales face" around other races, in the efforts of establishing new trade... but like most "sales faces", it really is just for show.
#22 lurking_shadow Jul 27, 2006 18:48:24	I don't know how it is too much suspension of disbelilef for them to be a Blue Age race, really. We know next to nothing about the global dynamics during the Blue Age, other than it was covered with water, and that Halflings/Rhulisti ruled supreme. We also really only know one continent... hell... we know one part of one continent. We don't really know much about across the Silt Sea, we don't really know about the world West of the Crimson Savannah, North of the Last Sea, or South of the Deadlands. We don't know really all that much. I personally think, that in the scope of how D&D tends to function, across all versions, the notion of a world where only a single sentient race had sprung up... that is a bit harder to believe. But, as I tend to look at the Blue Age with a more "sci-fi eye", I'm willing to think that the Rhulisti were the dominant sentient life. I don't think it is a stretch of the imagination, or causes any complications at all to believe that the Nikaal could have been some sort of amphibious reptillian fledgeling race during that time -- hell, the Rhulisti could have had them on "nature preserves", to protect the Nikaal from external interference and been watching them develop. Well, I did try offering an open opinion, but Bengeldorn requested that I provide a specific one. Anyway, while I’m not opposed to new ideas, I share much of Nero’s Boot’s opinion on the matter: the Blue age was supposed to be about the rhulisti, and incorporating too many race’s origins into that age diminishes this rather fundamental concept of the setting. I’m pretty sure that most people on the DS boards can come up, without effort, with at least a dozen canon races whose origins were not yet established. These couldn’t possibly have all been Blue Age races or rhulisti descendants. Quite frankly, beyond some vague suggestions in MC2 about the nikaal having a “mysterious” origin, I don’t see why this particular race is a better candidate than any of the others for being yet another exception to established canon. Just like I don't think it is much of an exagerration to think that the modern Kreen could have been the results of genetic manipulation caused by the old Rhulisti nature-benders -- the nature-benders were sent off in the exact same direction away from the Tyr regoin, that the Kreen Empire now resides, and the Zik-Chil seem to bear some interesting similarities in what they do, to a perverted version of lifeshaping. Yes, there do seem to exist some rather curious coincidences that tie the zik-chil to the nature benders. And I very much like the concept. But I don't think there was an "unknown Champion" that was sent off to kill the Nikaal. Yes. I dislike the idea of the nikaal being a true Rebirth race pretty much for the same reasons that I stated above. They aren’t better candidates for being “unmentioned descendants of the rhulisti” than any of the other races. That’s why I prefer to set their origin as a wild mutation during the Rebirth. Lots of new creatures were being generated at that time in order to build a new ecosystem; if some of those new creatures acquired sentience, that would explain the origin of many of the Brown Age races. (That also goes for later mutations occurring in the Green Age or, especially, during or after the Cleansing Wars.) There could have been human supremicists that went off on their own to hunt races like the Nikaal, however. We only know that Rajaat protected the Halflings (for the most part) from the Cleansing Wars. He could have ust not given a damn about the Nikaal (much like how he didn't give a damn about the Kreen). Exactly. Neither Rajaat nor the Champions would have cared much if the nikaal were caught in the crossfire of the Cleansing Wars. I actually think they would be putting on a "sales face" around other races, in the efforts of establishing new trade... but like most "sales faces", it really is just for show. Agreed.
#23 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 27, 2006 20:04:15	Well, I did try offering an open opinion, but Bengeldorn requested that I provide a specific one. Anyway, while I’m not opposed to new ideas, I share much of Nero’s Boot’s opinion on the matter: the Blue age was supposed to be about the rhulisti, and incorporating too many race’s origins into that age diminishes this rather fundamental concept of the setting. I forget who it was who had suggested that the direction TSR was heading was that the Rhulisti, Kreen, and Nikaal were from the Blue Age. I totally agree, there should be a minimal number, and as I said, the Nikaal's role could be significantly downplayed -- but I don't want every non-Rhulisti race to be summed up as "something that happened from the Pristine Tower", I like some interesting alternatives for a handful of races that aren't from the Pristine Tower's effects. I consider the Kreen, Nikaal, and Gith as prime candidates for such a possibility. The Nikaal, who come from a far-off land, could have originated from the Blue Age, and have absolutely nothing to do with the Pristine Tower -- but are native to Athas all the same. The Kreen? I see them as something native to Athas, but were altered by the nature-benders -- whom could have redesigned themselves into the zik-chil, and eventually more or less wrote themselves out of existence due to reliance on a flawed genetic memory. The gith, I see as potentially coming from the githyanki & githzerai, but 'de-evolved' into the modern Athasian gith. I’m pretty sure that most people on the DS boards can come up, without effort, with at least a dozen canon races whose origins were not yet established. These couldn’t possibly have all been Blue Age races or rhulisti descendants. Quite frankly, beyond some vague suggestions in MC2 about the nikaal having a “mysterious” origin, I don’t see why this particular race is a better candidate than any of the others for being yet another exception to established canon. true, but for the nikaal, I'm picking something that was already mentioned... if I could only remember from where.