While working on a Verdan Mini-Gaz with Giampaolo, some thoughts about the oltec origins of the Verdan/Espa peoples led me to this idea. I guess there is a lot of interesting pre-columbian civilizations and too little oltec history written until today, so...
For avoiding confusions between the Oltec civilization and the oltec etnic group, I used the word "Oltecindian" for the later
10000 BC - 9000 BC - Oltecindian people starts to grow and divide itself in numerous tribes. Competition for resources and lands force some oltecindian tribes to migrate from their original lands (Atruaghin region), reaching the jungles of the Midlands (where now lies the Great Waste) and the ones of north Davania (Forest of Ka)
9000 BC - 8000 BC - Rise of the oltecindian civilization of Orimul (Forest of Ka)
8000 BC - 7000 BC - Orimul lands are continuously attacked by other local nations (including the Carnifex)
7000 BC - 6000 BC - Orimul civilization almost collapses; Some of the Orimul migrate back to Brun, being absorved by the locals oltecindians; The original Orimul culture is the basis of the new, local oltecindian civilizations
6000 BC - 4000 BC - Rise of the classic oltecindian civilizations of Brun, divided in two main groups: the Jungle Dwellers (Great Waste), including the Proto-Otzil, and the Mountain Dwellers (Black Mountains)
4000 BC - 3500 BC - Post-classic oltecindian civilizations appears (including classic Otzil, Proto-Tahuaca and Proto-Oltec), age of the oltecindian empires.
First oltecindian, semi-nomadic groups (including the Atukaino) migrate to the Savage Coast (including the Orc's Head Penninsula and the Bayou) and the Yazak Steppes, being forced to migrate due the expansion of the oltecindian empires. Tortles are culturally absorved by the oltecindian groups; phanatons become pets.
3500 BC - 3250 BC - Rise of the Tahuaca and Oltec empires
Otzil culture, among others, is absorved by the Oltec civilization, influencing and being influenced by it.
More semi-nomadic oltecindians groups (including the Azcans) are absorved or expelled by the expanding empires.
3250 BC - 3125 BC - The last Inti (a.k.a. the Sapa Inti, that means Emperor) of Tahuaca dies and lives no heirs. The too rigid Tahuacan empire fragments quickly and is absorved by the Oltec empire. The emperor of the Oltec civilization is now called The Oltec, among other titles.
The Oltec empire is at its peak, reaching its maximum size. First Oltec colony at the Savage Coast (Savage Baronies region), formed by Otzil colonists.
3125 BC - 3000 BC - Azca becomes a separate empire (Atruaghin and Sind regions), rival of the Oltec empire. Constant wars between the two empires happens during this period.
More Otzil arrive at the Savage Coast.
3000 BC - The Great Rain of Fire threats the existence of the oltecindian empires, since the great jungle of the Midlands quickly becomes the Great Waste; the Immortals bring the remaining parts of the Oltec (including Tahuaca) and the Azcan empires into the Hollow World, while the post-classic Otzil culture is left only in the Outer World. This new Otzil-Oltec civilization flourishes there, since the weather Savage Coast begins to warm (and rather slowly, avoiding drastic changes in the environment).
Oltecindians groups begins to migrate from the Midlands region, especially to the Savage Coast, Atruaghin region (where the Azcans managed to kept their culture mostly intact) and others as far as Oceania and Esterhold.
3000 BC - 2500 BC - The Otzil civilization becomes a prosperous oltecindian cilivization of city-states, at the region of the Savage Baronies and Tortle Country. Very few Otzil outposts were build along the rest of the coast.
2500 BC - 2000 BC - Some Otzil city-states emerges from the outposts in the region of the modern Tortle Tribelands and the lands that now are under the Helmet Bay. One of these cities where the one which ruins are now known as "Monoliths of Zul".
Elves appears in the region and settles at the forests of the modern Bellayne, Eusdria, Robrenn and Torreón. Elven and Otzil civilizations don't intermingle.
The aranea mages of Herath starts to pay attention to these human and elven city-states.
2000 BC - 1500 BC - Some "elvesque" and "oltesque" city-states appears at the region of Herath.
Goblinoid tribes arrive at the Yazak Steppes.
1500 BC - 1000 BC - Otzil and elven civilizations are badly damaged by the attacks of the goblinoids of the Yazak Steppes. Rakastan and Lupin tribes migrate closer to the coast.
1000 BC - 500 BC - Nithian colonies absorvs the previous oltecindians city-states of the region of the Tortle Tribelands-Protectorado da Presa-Helmet Bay region. Tortles are used as slaves and brouthg from other regions of the coast (especially the Tortle Country) to their colonies. Some nithian outposts were built in the region of the Savage Baronies.
A "nithianesque" civilization appears in Herath, replacing the "oltesque" one.
500 BC - Nithia dissapears and all the traces of it are erased by the Immortals. "Nithianesque" civilization in Herath reverts to a "Nimmuresque" one, since the araneas and manscorpins get along reasonably well.
The land where the nithian main colonies were sinks, forming the Twin Islands and the Tiger Island.
0 AC - Tortle descendents of the slaves of nithian colonies forms the Tortlec civilization of Zul.
100 AC - Another group of goblinoids (Yazaka) arrives at the Yazak Steppes, replacing the first groups and forcing them (the Yazi, including the mouselings) and the rakastan and lupin tribes into the coast. Herathians create the Gurrash, dumping them into the Bayou; the last remaining of oltecindians in the Bayou were wiped out, and the shazaks were displaced. The remaining oltecindians at the Orc's Head Penninsula (Jibarú and Dark Jungle) were wiped out by the Yaguz orcs and their newcomer cousins (Yazi orcs).
Tortlec civilization destroyed by the arrival of Yazi goblinoids.
900 AC - 1000 AC - Very few of the Otzil former glorious civilization still exists; The Otzil people lives in the jungle that surrounds the ruins of their cities.
The last remains of the Otzil and the other oltecindians (like the Atukaino) were absorved by the Ispans imigrants; The ruins of the Otzil cities are sacked by the ispans conquistadores.
Orimul - Olmec (Orimul were picked from Geoff's articles. I guess they are equivalent to the RW Olmecs (if this is true and if the Stonecarving culture of Colima was based on RW Easter Island, pehaps they are descendents of the Orimul and their stone heads, with some "polynesian" (makai?) influence))
Oltec - Toltec
Azca - Aztec
Tahuaca - Inca
Otzil - Maya
Atukaino - Arawak/Taino
Some connections could also be estabilished between some oltecindians cultures and some cultures of the Savage Coast: Pehaps much of the culture of Jibarú (Tupi) came from a small group of oltecindians? Pehaps the same happened with the Yazug orcs (Caribs), the Yazi gnolls and goblins (not sure which nort-american amerindian group they represent) and the lizard-kin realms (piramid-builders Cay, pehaps?
)Tahuaca name could be translated as the "The Four Peoples". I picked this name because of the Quechuan word for the Inca Empire, Tahuantinsuyo (The Four United Regions). Possibly these four peoples wold be based on RW Quechuans/Incas, Aymaras, Chimus and Chibchas (this one being originally a "Jungle Dweller" people, migrating to the Black Mountains before the Oltec conquest)
Otzil comes from Otzitiotl (Ixion) and the RW Tlotzil mayan people.
Atukaino comes from the arawak word Atukatxi (Sun).
This timeline also included some controversal points, how the herathian architeture looks like for example. These are justmy opinion and could be just ignored, if necessary ;)
Does anyone knows which RW amerindian people the Children of the Bear, Elk and Horse represents?
Elk are eastern woodlands cultures, notably the Algonquin and Iroquois.
The Bear are a puebloan culture, kind of a mixture of Anasazi, Zuni, and Hopi.
The Horse are great plains cultures- think Cheyenne, Comanche, and the like.
And the Yazi of Carrascal and Baldands?
Not sure, actually. Don't know too much about the Yazi, aside from the Black Vessel (which I haven't read in ages). They seemed very much like Great Plains amerindians, pre-horses (I don't recall the gnolls using horses, anyway. Might be interesting to sub hyenas in for horses, though...)
The Children of the Turtle are the equivalents of the Nootka, right?
Seem to be a general hodgepodge of Nootka, Chinook, and other Pacific Northwestern cultures (despite the oddity of their location, in a semi-tropical region- I don't recall whether the Gaz mentions any sort of cold currents coming in off of the Sea of Dread that might account for the environment, though I don't think so).
And the Children of the Tiger/Viper, their idiom doesn't look like aztec Nahuatl... which RW idiom it represents?
They are supposed to be a Nahuatl-esque type of culture, although their language doesn't correspond to any RW language I've ever been able to discover (tlaz-toi, etc.) They make them very Azcan/Aztec-like in the Gaz, although I personally would like to have seen them move a bit further away from those roots in the intervening 4000 odd years since the Azcans went to the Hollow World. I generally make them sort of a Uto-Aztecan sort of culture, kind of a hodgepodge of Piman/Hopi with elements of Aztec and a little Mayan... but to be honest, I've never quite gotten a real feel for how they should be.
Actually, I think the Tiger/Viper nation really should be recognized as a kingdom in its own right, and the way they describe the settlements seems to be almost like small cities, or large towns. Their organization and social structure should make them a more prominent political entity than they are (part of that, I think is due to the late addition of the Atruaghin Gaz to the Known World mix). I think they should also be somewhat more technologically advanced than they are presented as well- they are mentioned to use bronze weapons, etc, but I would personally have them making and using forges for iron weapons, if not steel. I wouldn't have them running around in heavy armor or anything, but for such a belligerent nation to have stood as long as it has, I can't imagine they haven't been capturing and learning new technologies from surrounding nations, and training their troops in their usage. But maybe that's just me.
I also have other smaller groups, IMC. I have Seminole/Creek type swamp dwelling Atruaghins in the Malpheggi region. They are a problem with the Darokinian settlers, who want them off their land, such that the Darokin Council incorporated the Malpheggi swamps into the Heartlands in an effort to attempt to quell the violence between the settlers of the Borderlands and the natives (by directly administering the region)- not that the natives really recognize the Darokin authority, at least not all. I also adopted the Red Town/White Town concept of the Creek, whereby the Red Towns are those responsible for waging wars, and the White Towns are those responsible for making peace treaties and such.
Does anyone knows which RW amerindian people the Children of the Bear, Elk and Horse represents? And the Yazi of Carrascal and Baldands? The Children of the Turtle are the equivalents of the Nootka, right? And the Children of the Tiger/Viper, their idiom doesn't look like aztec Nahuatl... which RW idiom it represents?
The Bear = Navajo and other cliff-dwellers
Elk = Forest tribes of North America
Horse = Great Plains tribes.
Children of the Tiger/Viper are Toltec, I think.
Not sure, actually. Don't know too much about the Yazi, aside from the Black Vessel (which I haven't read in ages). They seemed very much like Great Plains amerindians, pre-horses (I don't recall the gnolls using horses, anyway. Might be interesting to sub hyenas in for horses, though...)
If I'm not mistaken, these gnolls do use horses, and the goblins, wolves (worgs, I guess). But I would rather use "dire hyenas" (or dire wolves) or even caniquines for them (since the lupins shun the caniquines, who uses them as mounts?).
By the way, I forgot to include the Red Orcs in my list of "oltecindian"-related peoples
Actually, I think the Tiger/Viper nation really should be recognized as a kingdom in its own right, and the way they describe the settlements seems to be almost like small cities, or large towns. Their organization and social structure should make them a more prominent political entity than they are (part of that, I think is due to the late addition of the Atruaghin Gaz to the Known World mix). I think they should also be somewhat more technologically advanced than they are presented as well- they are mentioned to use bronze weapons, etc, but I would personally have them making and using forges for iron weapons, if not steel. I wouldn't have them running around in heavy armor or anything, but for such a belligerent nation to have stood as long as it has, I can't imagine they haven't been capturing and learning new technologies from surrounding nations, and training their troops in their usage. But maybe that's just me.
I agree with you, it would be strange if the Children of the Tiger were just like Azca and a "advanced aztec" civ would be interesting. Their madeup language also helps this theory, taking they away from "pure aztecs".
The Children of the Tiger are the only clan to maintain forges and work metal into weapons. In this respect, they are much like the so-called civilized nations around them.
Could this means that they do have steel weapons/armors? ;)
Especially since the Oltecs (or at least the Tahuaca) already kwen how to make bronze weapons 4000 years in the past, why not steel for their descendents?
I guess the only thing that keeps them away from being a true, individual nation is that they are savages (or that's what th rest of the world, including the other clans, thinks), especially after Atzanteotl influencing them.
But I guess since these clans were made too generic, it would be difficult to know the exact origins of each clan (they might all have azcan blood (Hopi, Comanche, Aztec))
I also have other smaller groups, IMC. I have Seminole/Creek type swamp dwelling Atruaghins in the Malpheggi region. They are a problem with the Darokinian settlers, who want them off their land, such that the Darokin Council incorporated the Malpheggi swamps into the Heartlands in an effort to attempt to quell the violence between the settlers of the Borderlands and the natives (by directly administering the region)- not that the natives really recognize the Darokin authority, at least not all. I also adopted the Red Town/White Town concept of the Creek, whereby the Red Towns are those responsible for waging wars, and the White Towns are those responsible for making peace treaties and such.
Interesting addition. The Malpheggi swamp looks more like part of Atruaghin than Darokin anyway
The Bear = Navajo and other cliff-dwellers
Elk = Forest tribes of North America
Horse = Great Plains tribes.
Children of the Tiger/Viper are Toltec, I think.
The problem with the Toltec is that they were nahuatl-speakers, just like the aztecs, and the language of the Tiger/Viper clans isn't Nahuatl
The problem with the Toltec is that they were nahuatl-speakers, just like the aztecs, and the language of the Tiger/Viper clans isn't Nahuatl
Which raises an interesting question. Just where did this language originate from? It is clearly different from Azcan, and isn't like the other Atruaghin language(s). It doesn't seem to be very Darokinian, nor is it Sindhi, so...
Possibly (and this is something that just occurred to me), it could be a combination of Azcan (the tl in Tlaz-ti, for example), and Malpheggi lizardmen (the z's, the s's- Slak-ti, etc.). This would fit with certain theories of mine regarding the contacts between serpent/lizardkin in the area (and a theory of mine to tie in RW Nagaland information from India with Nagas and Sind), and it would certainly fit with the confusing Viper/Tiger clan information. Perhaps they were originally the Viper clan (due to their lizardkin ties), but changed to the Tiger clan when Danel Tigerstripes became their patron? Thus both names?
(Unfortunately, I'd have to change my Viper clan/Mounds culture to fit the vision, but it was still only a half formed idea anyway).
The language issue of the Clans has bugged me for some time. Clearly, there are multiple languages there (a sign language, Bear clan language, Tiger language, etc.) based on the words that are used in each clan section. The mishmash of RW cultures the clans are based on also had many hundreds of languages between them. The PWAs only give us one Atruaghin language, though. Frankly, lately I've been inclined to simply have one Atruaghin language, with the strange words and phrases holdovers from when they had multiple languages or regional dialects. It makes less confusion, and also (in game terms) makes it easier to actually have people go to different locations without making communication too difficult (even if not realistic).
In fact, I'd probably go one step further, and have there be two languages spoken around the plateau- "Atruaghin", an Oltec originated language with its various regional dialects (or whatever it is named; too many dang things named Atruaghin there), and "Tiger", the Azcan/Malpheggi mix spoken only by the Viper/Tiger clan.
Possibly (and this is something that just occurred to me), it could be a combination of Azcan (the tl in Tlaz-ti, for example), and Malpheggi lizardmen (the z's, the s's- Slak-ti, etc.). This would fit with certain theories of mine regarding the contacts between serpent/lizardkin in the area (and a theory of mine to tie in RW Nagaland information from India with Nagas and Sind), and it would certainly fit with the confusing Viper/Tiger clan information.
Very interesting theory. Pehaps this also means that the Malpheggi lizardmen have a mesoamerican culture? Since they're between the Oltecs and Azcans...
But I guess I would include mayan (Otzil) as a source for the origin of the Tiger clan idiom. Pehaps it's just me, but I guess their names sounds a little like mayan
Perhaps they were originally the Viper clan (due to their lizardkin ties), but changed to the Tiger clan when Danel Tigerstripes became their patron? Thus both names?
Very possible, indeed
And pehaps after Atzanteotl influence, Viper name is gradually becoming the official name, and Tiger starting to be desused
The language issue of the Clans has bugged me for some time. Clearly, there are multiple languages there (a sign language, Bear clan language, Tiger language, etc.) based on the words that are used in each clan section. The mishmash of RW cultures the clans are based on also had many hundreds of languages between them. The PWAs only give us one Atruaghin language, though. Frankly, lately I've been inclined to simply have one Atruaghin language, with the strange words and phrases holdovers from when they had multiple languages or regional dialects. It makes less confusion, and also (in game terms) makes it easier to actually have people go to different locations without making communication too difficult (even if not realistic).
In fact, while DMing a Savage Coast campaign, I considered Thyatian, Espa and Verdan as being variants of one same language, roleplaying these languages more like accents. There are too many different idioms there, and it was becoming a problem in my campaign
In fact, I'd probably go one step further, and have there be two languages spoken around the plateau- "Atruaghin", an Oltec originated language with its various regional dialects (or whatever it is named; too many dang things named Atruaghin there), and "Tiger", the Azcan/Malpheggi mix spoken only by the Viper/Tiger clan.
Since the Viper/Tiger clan isn't famous for being very diplomatic, it would be very likely that they have their own language. But I guess the Horse language might be more than just a dialect.
In fact, saying that one of those languages came frot Oltec and the other fron Azcan don't help much, since they are the same language (Nahuatl? if so, Oltecs are Toltecs), according to the canon sources of the Hollow World.
Any comments about the oltec timeline idea?
But I guess the Horse language might be more than just a dialect.
D'oh! Of course, the Horse clan would have their own language as well (their sign language). So that would be three for the region, with several regional dialects (that are compatible, but have some differences).
[QUOTE}In fact, saying that one of those languages came frot Oltec and the other fron Azcan don't help much, since they are the same language (Nahuatl? if so, Oltecs are Toltecs), according to the canon sources of the Hollow World.
Oh- that makes sense. I hadn't even considered that the Toltecs were Nahuatl speakers for some reason. So both languages would be essentially the same.
Still digesting the Oltec timeline; will try and have some thoughts on that for you soon.
D'oh! Of course, the Horse clan would have their own language as well (their sign language). So that would be three for the region, with several regional dialects (that are compatible, but have some differences).
In fact, there might or might not be only two languages. If this sign language was based on the original Horse clan dialect, just replacing words with gestures, this might be just another way of using the same language (just like speaking and writing). If not, then it's indeed another idiom =)
Oh- that makes sense. I hadn't even considered that the Toltecs were Nahuatl speakers for some reason. So both languages would be essentially the same.
I guess Oltec/Azcan might be the same language for the same reason that Atruaghin officially have only one language (trying to avoid having too much languages in the setting? Trying to make obvious that a group of peoples are closely related?) and the Oltecs were suposed to be M-Inca, even if quechua and nahuatl are as close as english and hindi, at best. But we have another problem if we consider the Oltecs were the M-Inca: the Azcan culture is, in fact, the Oltec culture. So, how can we explain so man differences? That's why I like to think the Oltecs as M-Toltecs (the name also helps making this association
) and including a different oltecindian group, Tahuaca (M-Inca)Still digesting the Oltec timeline; will try and have some thoughts on that for you soon.
It's not very small, indeed. So, no need to rush ;)
In fact, it's smaller than it should, it don't include most of Atruaghin timeline
Orimul - Olmec (Orimul were picked from Geoff's articles. I guess they are equivalent to the RW Olmecs (if this is true and if the Stonecarving culture of Colima was based on RW Easter Island, pehaps they are descendents of the Orimul and their stone heads, with some "polynesian" (makai?) influence)
I readily admit that I know very little about native American cultures - that said, Orimul was intended to have a vaguely mesoamerican feel to it. Here are some rough ideas of how I envisioned it to be - written down for the very first time:
Orimul was a realm of small, independent towns centred around some variation of a step-pyramid (simpler in design compared to what would come later). The Orimulians forged metal, traded with one another, and were proficient stone carvers - large blocks of intricately carved stonework served as currency.
For defence, they carved their fortresses into the sides of hills and in the faces of escarpments. Thus, their enemies would be compelled to attack from a position of weakness, as no invading army could allow such strongholds to exist in an occupied territory.
The Orimulians did not get along with the peoples of Nevumm or Ilarnn (who were related to each other), and in fact did nothing while the Nevummians were being annihilated by the Carnifex.
Physically they resembled modern Oltecs. Both sexes dressed in dyed cotton kilts or tunics and wore sandals (when they wore footwear at all). Hair was generally worn long; although women tended to gather theirs in braids. Adornment was fairly simple - small studs of carved bone, stone, or jade inserted into the ears or the upper lip.
Geoff
I readily admit that I know very little about native American cultures - that said, Orimul was intended to have a vaguely mesoamerican feel to it. Here are some rough ideas of how I envisioned it to be - written down for the very first time:
I guess many characteristics of the Orimul makes me remind of the Olmecs (that being intentional or not). So, unless you want them this way, they could be our M-Olmecs ;)
Orimul was a realm of small, independent towns centred around some variation of a step-pyramid (simpler in design compared to what would come later). The Orimulians forged metal, traded with one another, and were proficient stone carvers - large blocks of intricately carved stonework served as currency.
Not much of the Olmec culture survived, but one thing that make it until today and is very peculiar to the Olmec culture is their carved stone heads. Since the Orimul are indeed stone carvers, this could be part of their culture (making them one step closer for being our M-Olmecs)
Physically they resembled modern Oltecs. Both sexes dressed in dyed cotton kilts or tunics and wore sandals (when they wore footwear at all). Hair was generally worn long; although women tended to gather theirs in braids. Adornment was fairly simple - small studs of carved bone, stone, or jade inserted into the ears or the upper lip.
According to wikipedia, jade carved objects were another thing olmecs were fond of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmec). One step closer, I think ;)
I don't know much about the olmecs either, but AFAIK all the characteristics of the Orimul culture fit nicely with what is know about the olmecs (or, at least, don't conflict with anything).
Another interesting thing that is written about the Olmecs is that they already worshipped the Feathered Serpent deity. Our M-Quetzalcoatl is Atruaghin, but pehaps it, originally, was another name for Ka (since he is Atruaghin's patron, anyway)? Oltec/Azcan pantheon would include many different names for the same Immortals, anyway (and the same for the Otzil and Tahuaca, even if not as much). And what about the Orimul, which deities do they worship? Ka, pehaps (since they live in the Forest of Ka, anyway)? Ixion as well?
There are clear similarities in the train of thought with Wilhelm's ideas; however, I go with a hard 6000BC sudden appearance of man rather than a longer (and more RW natural) development.
10,000 BC The Carnifex are banished. Guardian races (giants, dragons, actaeons) inherited certain domains in Brun and Skothar.
6000 BC: Forest of Ka stretches from northern Davania to southern Brun. Proto-oltec groups such as the Protecs inhabit the Forest of Ka and the Addakian Sound.
5000 BC: The Mictec Gulf Culture briefly appeared in Davania.
4800 BC: Lotomec tribes supplanted the Mictecs in Davania.
4300 BC: Classic Oltecs appeared in the mountain forests of NW Davania. Related tribes reverted to a more primitive existence.
4000 BC: The Tenac Culture briefly challenged the Oltecs, but the later prevailed. They discovered the use of copper and bronze and began to conquer their rivals. Southern tribes brought legends of lizard-like beings and introduced the worship of Kalakataka.
3850 BC: A group of warlike, flatland rainforest tribes were conquered by the Oltecs. Originally a semi-nomadic people from the North Desert, these tribes clung to their distinct heritage.
3500 BC: A lowlander rose to position of military head of the entire Oltec Empire and proclaimed "I am the Azcan, the son of Azca." After a failed military coup, he retreated to the lowlands and led the "Azcan" cities in rebellion.
3400 BC: The ongoing Azcan-Oltec war forced many tribes to migrate. Some, like the Zumache, settled the eastern and southern shores of the Savage Coast. Others travelled east along the Davanian coast and across the waters. These were the ancestors of the Ethengar, the Jennites, and the Oceanians. The eastern tribes encountered Blackmoor explorers. Many of the northern realms, particularly Lumbrai, proved eager to exploit this potential source of labor. Slave ports sprouted in Bellisaria and Skothar.
3350 BC: Blackmoor explorers sailing from Zyxl discovered the legendary elven capital of Evergrun. The unwelcome intrusion ignited the Second Elven War (the Great War) - principally a naval-marine conflict while Blackmoorian land troops were engaged in the Thonian Wars. Bellisarian elves warred against the slavers.
3330 BC: The Concordance of Mohacs ended the Second Elven War and the Thonian Wars. It established the 4th Republic of Thonia under Blackmoor, established colonization limits between Blackmoor and the elves, and ended the Oltec slave trade.
3000 BC: The Great Rain of Fire. Oltec and Azcan forests gave way to plains, and the Serpent Bridge was deluged. This was known as the End of the Fifth Sun. Bellisarian Oltecs, progenitors to the Jennites and Teslans, joined the Tanagoro and Janbu plainsmen in the region of the Minean Coast.
Survivors of the Blackmoor Ice Station Outposts fled south into the Midlands. One group became the Urduks, nomadic hunters who followed large herbivores around the foothills of the Black Mountains to the recovering margins of the Great Waste.
2900 BC: Proto-Ethengars crossed from Bellisaria to the Isle of Dawn. They began to intermingle with the local Neathar population.
2800 BC: Oltec-Azcan war and ecological changes drove the two cultures to extinction. Northern survivors travelled east and sought refuge in the caves of the original Atruaghin Plateau.
2400 BC: The Ethengar people moved further north on the Isle of Dawn towards the landbridge to Brun. An offshoot group remained in the central plains region - ancestors to the Alasiyans.
2300 BC: Ilsundal elves settled among the Savage Coast Oltecs. Internal squabbles did not prevent the tribes from building and extensive culture.
It seems that my RW-group inspirations list didn't make the move, so these lists are guesses.
Protecs - Protomecs (sp?), an early Gulf culture
Mictec - Mixtec Gulf Culture of Mexico
Lotomec - another Gulf culture, I believe they were called the Lomecs?
Oltecs - Olmec/Toltec
Tenac - early Incan?
Azcan - Aztec
Zumache - a cross of Zuni, Hopi and Apache
FWIW, my Tanagoro list resembled:
Satum - Axum
Saku - First kingdom of Kush or the Nok culture
Tanagoro - Kalahari bushman
Janbu - Bantu tribes
Ibu - a group that was driven west by Bantu migration patterns (can't remember the name)
Karimari - pygmies, another victim of Bantu migrations
Kho - Berber-related group, name taken from a truncation of a language-family pertaining to that region
Yavi - Jamaican
For established Mystaran groups with Amerind inspiration the list was
Bear - Navajo, pueblo tribes
Elk - Iriquois/Algonquian
Turtle - Pacific
Tiger - amalgamation of Aztec culture in a Mayan environment with a major technological boost (steel) and South American use of poison (unaware of NA Amerind cultures or Mesoamerican ones that used poison weapons)
Horse: Plains indians (Sioux, Cheyenne)
Yazi gnolls - Later spaghetti western indians (when trade/peaceable relations were worked into the storylines)
Blackbelly goblins, etc - earlier spaghetti westerns
Los Guardianos (native Savage Coasters) - Mexican-Californian
"Pagans" (X9 encounters, between Baronies and Eusdria) - bandito Tex-Mex culture plus El Dorado [Think valley of Gwangi]
"Pagans" (X9 encounters, in what is now Bellayne and Herath) - doubtful this group still exists, but probably Yanomam-inspired
Here are some of my maps on the Vaults http://www.pandius.com/grof_map.html to better see what I'm talking about.
If I'm not mistaken, these gnolls do use horses, and the goblins, wolves (worgs, I guess). But I would rather use "dire hyenas" (or dire wolves) or even caniquines for them (since the lupins shun the caniquines, who uses them as mounts?).
Yes, the Yazi gnolls do use horses, according to the SC book. Caniquines are a good alternative (otherwise, they'd mostly used by humans).
Yes, the Yazi gnolls do use horses, according to the SC book. Caniquines are a good alternative (otherwise, they'd mostly used by humans).
Or a rare breed of horses, that don't feel intimidated by gnolls, lupins and similar races. Something that would help explaining pistoleros lupins using horses at Cambourg/La Roca (since pistoleros are natives to the Savage Coast, and Cebrian Sandoval's army were mainly formed by ispans of Narvaez, these horses could be available for the pistoleros conquistadores when they arrived at Renardy)
Here is the Oltec-related timeline that I use in the background for projects. (Note: this only extends to 2000BC)
Funny, i looked for any oltec related articles at the Vaults before writing this (and I found Geoff's Orimul while doing this and then included them in the timeline), but somehow I didn't find your maps. Otherwise, I would surely include them as well ;)
10,000 BC The Carnifex are banished. Guardian races (giants, dragons, actaeons) inherited certain domains in Brun and Skothar.
Hm... when did the Carnifex banishment happened? I don't have the canon sources that might answer me this question... According to Marco Dalmonte's Carnifex Files, this would be circa 9000 BC; I guess they were no longer in Davania around 8000-7000, then
6000 BC: Forest of Ka stretches from northern Davania to southern Brun. Proto-oltec groups such as the Protecs inhabit the Forest of Ka and the Addakian Sound.
I was using HW maps for this timeline, and it didn't show that Brun and Davania were connected (possibly because this map represents Mystara in 3000 BC?). Because of that, I was considering that the origins of the Oltec people was the Atruaghin region instead of the Forest of Ka.
4300 BC: Classic Oltecs appeared in the mountain forests of NW Davania. Related tribes reverted to a more primitive existence.
I placed the beginning of the Oltec-Azcan civilizations closer to the GRoF only because this way we could have two distinct "oltecindians" groups inside the Oltec lands of the Hollow World, but it could happen before this date as well
2900 BC: Proto-Ethengars crossed from Bellisaria to the Isle of Dawn. They began to intermingle with the local Neathar population.
Ethengarians descends from the Jennites, them? I like it
By the way, is there any big difference between both groups?
2400 BC: The Ethengar people moved further north on the Isle of Dawn towards the landbridge to Brun. An offshoot group remained in the central plains region - ancestors to the Alasiyans.
Did any of these Jennite-porto-Ethengarians-and-Alasiyans moved west and originated the Hulians as well?
Protecs - Protomecs (sp?), an early Gulf culture
Mictec - Mixtec Gulf Culture of Mexico
Lotomec - another Gulf culture, I believe they were called the Lomecs?
I have to admit, I never heard of the Protomecs or Lomecs... where can I read more about them?
Tenac - early Incan?
Another name for the Tahuaca people? Pehaps one of the "Four Peoples" ;)
Hm... when did the Carnifex banishment happened? I don't have the canon sources that might answer me this question... According to Marco Dalmonte's Carnifex Files, this would be circa 9000 BC; I guess they were no longer in Davania around 8000-7000, then
According to what's been written, no. The Carnifex that appeared in Twilight Calling (labelled by fans as "Greater Carnifex") were banished between BC 10,000-9,000. The Carnifex that appeared in later periods (according to my own work) were the Y'hog Carnifex, a slightly less powerful, and far more degenerate sub-race. Even further down the pole in terms of power levels are the Deep Carnifex, who inhabit underground cities in the Adakkian Mountains of Davania.
Of course, this is not to say that some Greater Carnifex didn't escape banishment, but a pretty good reason why they weren't sent away would have to be found. Some ideas are in the Vaults (i.e., the Mystaraspace articles).
Geoff
According to what's been written, no. The Carnifex that appeared in Twilight Calling (labelled by fans as "Greater Carnifex") were banished between BC 10,000-9,000. The Carnifex that appeared in later periods (according to my own work) were the Y'hog Carnifex, a slightly less powerful, and far more degenerate sub-race. Even further down the pole in terms of power levels are the Deep Carnifex, who inhabit underground cities in the Adakkian Mountains of Davania.
Then it needs only a small correction:
8000 BC - 7000 BC - Orimul lands are continuously attacked by other local nations (including the Carnifex of Y'hog)
Another thing is that I can't find any articles about the Lomecs and Protomecs, but there is another nteresting mesoamerican civilizations that could be added here, like Teotihuacan, Zapotecs and Huastecs. So, we would have this:
Protecs - Zapotecs
Lotomecs - Tollon (Teotihuacan); possibly the name of this city-state would be Lotom, then ;)
Mictec - Mixtec
Tenac - Tenec (Huastec)
and the Four Peoples of Tahuaca (Inca):
Intizco - Inca of Cuzco
Chimuari - Chimu-Huari
Taipikala - Aymara-Tiahuanaco
Suesca - Chibcha-Musica
10000 BC - 9000 BC - Oltecindian people starts to grow and divide itself in numerous tribes. Competition for resources and lands force some oltecindian tribes to migrate from their original lands (Atruaghin region), reaching the jungles of the Midlands (where now lies the Great Waste) and the ones of north Davania (Forest of Ka) .
9000 BC - 8000 BC - Rise of the oltecindian civilization of Orimul (Forest of Ka).
8000 BC - 7000 BC - Orimul lands are continuously attacked by other local nations (including the Carnifex of Y'hog).
7000 BC - 6000 BC - Orimul civilization almost collapses; Some of the Orimul migrate back to Brun, being absorved by the locals oltecindians; The original Orimul culture is the basis of the new, local oltecindian civilizations .
6000 BC - 4000 BC - Rise of the classic oltecindian civilizations of Brun, divided in two main groups: the Jungle Dwellers (Great Waste) and the Mountain Dwellers (Black Mountains).
6000 BC - 5500 BC - Rise of the Lotomec, Protec-Mictec and Tenac-Otzil civilizations (Jungle Dwellers), direct descendents of the Orimul culture.
5500 BC - 5000 BC - The city-state of Lotom becomes the center of the oltecindian culture. Protec and Mictec groups split and start warring each other. The Mountain Dwellers Proto-Intizco, Proto-Chimuari and Proto-Taipikala civilizations appears.
5000 BC - 4500 BC - Tenac and Otzil groups split; Otzil groups migrate to the Gulf of Hule region. Suesca civilization appears, close to the Otzil new territories.
4500 BC - 4000 BC - Oltec civilization appears. Oltec allies with rebelious groups of Lotom and conquer this city, burning part of it. Lotomec civilization is destroyed, but it influenced a lot the Oltec culture. Rise of the Intizco, Chimuari and Taipikala cultures.
4000 BC - 3750 BC - Oltec civilization begins to expand its territories, forcing some semi-nomadic groups (Atukaino and others) to migrate into the Savage Coast (including the Orc's Head Penninsula, the Bayou and the Yazak Steppes). Tortles are culturally absorved by the oltecindian groups; phanatons become pets.
Other oltecindian groups are absorved as mercenaries, including the Proto-Azcans.
The Suescas' lands are conquered by the Oltecs and they migrate to the Black Mountains region, forming with the Intizco, Chimuari and Taipikala peoples the Tahuaca culture. Intizco people unify the Four Peoples. First Inti (Emperor), or Sapa Inti (Supreme Emperor).
3750 BC - 3500 BC - Protecs, Mictecs and Tenacs are conquered. Azcan soldiers are considered to be the best soldiers the Oltec empire have, and the elite troops of the Oltec empire are formed by Azcans.
One azcan is the new Tlacatecatl (supreme general); He tries to replace the current oltec emperor, but fails. Half of the empire is under the rule of the first azcan Tlatoani (emperor) and the new Azcan empire.
3500 BC - 3250 BC - The Inti of Tahuaca dies, living no heirs. The too rigid Tahuacan empire fragments quickly and is absorved easily by the Oltec empire. The emperor of the Oltec civilization is now called The Oltec, among other titles.
Oltec and Azcan empire are at war.
3250 BC - 3000 BC - Constant wars between the Oltec and Azcan empires happens during this period. The ongoing Azcan-Oltec war forces many tribes to migrate (some of them reaching Oceania and Esterhold). Otzil people migrates to the other side of the Gulf of Hule (Savage Baronies region), forming independent city-states there.
3000 BC - The Great Rain of Fire threats the existence of the oltecindian empires, since the great jungle of the Midlands quickly becomes the Great Waste; the Immortals bring the remaining parts of the Oltec (including Tahuaca) and the Azcan empires into the Hollow World, while the post-classic Otzil culture is left only in the Outer World. This new Otzil civilization flourishes there, since the weather Savage Coast begins to warm (and rather slowly, avoiding drastic changes in the environment).
Oltecindians groups begins to migrate from the Midlands region, especially to the Savage Coast and Atruaghin regions.
Does anyone know which RW culture the Stonecarving culture of Colima (Azca) was based on? Pehaps the moai carvers of the Easter Island? Or the Capacha culture of Colima (Mexico)?
No one? I guess it wouldn't be a problem to picture them as M-Rapa Nui culture, then ;)
And what about some "Nazca lines" in the Plain of Fire? Or pehaps closer to the Twin Oasis? ;)