I've basically just been using 2e space combat up too this point. But its just not up too the task at hand, and now that my group is getting really interested in the actual jammer part of spelljammer (up too this point jammers where just used for transportation).
In the past I ran the jammers and NPCs as no one in the group cared too do it themselves, until now. So I had complete control over all the facets of the ship and its movement.... so for the most part a narrative combat was the easiest way too take care of the few actual void combats. Which worked well for what I needed.
Recently I have got some new blood in my circle of players. A local girl from the LGS just joined my group... it seems her last group kicked her too the curb. And now shes dead set on being the jammer pilot and controlling the ship through combat situations. Shes very confrontational so too speak, she really really likes bloodshed and conflict. Magical weapons make her go all happy, and when she learned a PC could actually control the Jammer they where on in combat. Well she went loopie on me. ANd now I have too really take a look at the void combat system, something I have put off due too lack of needing it in my game. I do have tons of ideas and bits here and thier, just need a solid foundation too bring it all together.
I've gone too the official website already, so don't bother pushing that. Im not happy with thier take on the combat system. And at the rate thier taking its going too take them far too long to come up with a combat system. So I figure I'd see if any DMs have been doing any work in this area that I can look at.
Basically I need solid "Jammer Physics" too build apon; which include things such as Speed, movement scaling, manuverability, hex maping, and acceleration. That sort of stuff.
So please feel free too post ideas, stuff you have been working, and anything else you think might fit into the areas of void combat and jammer physics.
Thanks
I've gone too the official website already, so don't bother pushing that. Im not happy with thier take on the combat system. And at the rate thier taking its going too take them far too long to come up with a combat system. So I figure I'd see if any DMs have been doing any work in this area that I can look at.
Basically I need solid "Jammer Physics" too build apon; which include things such as Speed, movement scaling, manuverability, hex maping, and acceleration. That sort of stuff
Beyond the Moons is a fansite (i.e. the material is provided by the Spelljammer community both in this forum and on the Spelljammer Mailing List (SJML) ). The very people reading your post are the people you are blaming for "taking too long to come up with a combat system" because they are the people who write for BtM.
The guy that actually runs Beyond the Moons is keen to improve it and is always on the lookout for new material. Sadly too many people in the SJ community are quick to say "I don't like this" and try to reinvent things from scratch (instead of helping Beyond the Moons to fix mistakes). In my opinion that is the main reason that Beyond the Moons has been held back.
It is really sad because tons of really talented Spelljammer fans reproduce the same basic stuff again and again and again and a lot of great stuff gets abandoned before it is finished. (See my links pages to see tons of partly finished SJ websites.) The good news is that a major effort is now underway on the SJML to get a lot of the 3e conversion work done. Once the main part of the campaign setting is converted people will be able to build upon it and developement work should accellerate.
I would strongly urge you to help improve Beyond the Moons rather than try to start a paralel effort. You could for example examine the pros and cons of their existing combat system and build a 3e system on top of it.
When you went to the official website did you look at Spelljammer Combat in 3e D&D by Leroy Van Camp III?
Although I'm not totally satisfied with Leroy Van Camp's work myself I think that it is a very good effort. Bear in mind that it was an attempt at a hybrid system rather than a total conversion (and I think that as a hybrid system it actuall works very well). However, I never liked the fact that 2e Spelljammer used a different pace and set of rules for ships combat. It always felt more like a separate wargamming system than part of the D&D combat system.
Firstly I would suggest that you check out the archives of the Spelljammer Mailing List (SJML) to see if there is anything interesting there.
I think that you should use Leroy's hybrid system as a starting point and decide what bits you think are problematic. That way you only need to create half of the 3e combat system instead of replicating all the work he has done that is already right.
The 2e Ships Raiting and Hex System seem to work well enough. Leroy has kept them (although he has adjusted them to fit in with his Time rules) I think that you should keep both of these as well (although you will probably need to adjust the hexes as well).
His Armour Class conversion rules also work well. It is a sensible system and ideally Beyond the Moons will publish conversions of each individual ship with 3e AC stats built in.
I don't like Leroy's "Time" section (which has 1 SJ ship's turn for every 2 combat rounds). I think that it would be better to switch all ship activity over to 3e combat rounds (6 seconds). (Changing the timescale would mean that the size of hexes would also probably need to change to keep things balanced.)
Another thing I'd change is "Ships Initiative". Rather than have a roll for each ship I would argue that the roll should be given to the ship's helmsman (a helm like a Forge might need its own initiative). (You could also perhaps argue that certain ship hulls grant an intitiative bonus to the helmsman.)
With time and initiative both switched over to the 3e system your pilot would be in charge of what her ship does during combat. This makes sense because a pilot sitting on the helm can't really do anything else (except talk and get off of the helm). Because the helmsman is operating the ship (while they remain on the helm) I think that the helmsman should also make all the ships saving throws.
2e and 3e saving throws work in a different way so each ship probably needs updating. Leroy uses a workaround system, but I think it would be good to convert them all. This is a fairly complex task so I'd advise using one or two test ships to make sure the conversion works, before rolling it out.
Ships weapons are another issue. Each one is manned by individual people. I'd argue that each weapon should be controlled by one PC or NPC and that everyone else assisting should be viewed as using the aid action (the +2 to hit bonus is probably already factored in as under the 2e rules there was no bonus for a fully manned weapon). I'd say that the person 'operation' the weapon should decide on its initiative and make its attack rolls. This means that we need to work out a typical 2e crew member, subtract them out of the 2e stats (to get the weapons bonus) and then throw that bonus into the 3e rules.
Leroy has already proposed some feats for ships weapons and I think that they are a good idea. You might want to propose a tweak or two, but the basic principle is fine.
Obviously with helmsmen and weapon masters having different initiatives a level of co-operation (or co-ordination) would be needed, the fastest one may well have to slow down to the initiative of the slowest one (or the slowest one could refocus).
I think that is the basic direction that I would want to go into. If you are interested I'll go through each bit step by step and help you submit a full 3e combat system to Beyond the Moons.
The guy that actually runs Beyond the Moons is keen to improve it and is always on the lookout for new material. Sadly too many people in the SJ community are quick to say "I don't like this" and try to reinvent things from scratch (instead of helping Beyond the Moons to fix mistakes). In my opinion that is the main reason that Beyond the Moons has been held back.
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yea ok. i submitted Spelljammer specific artwork months ago and it is still not on the site, so i stop submitting and keep the art for myself.
yea ok. i submitted Spelljammer specific artwork months ago and it is still not on the site, so i stop submitting and keep the art for myself.
I can remind Static when I see him next. Both been kinda busy lately with work-related stuff; we used to talk daily, but we haven't talked in two weeks
I think part of the problem is the 2e curse. There are so many old sods stuck in a time warp, that they can't move forward. It's like the pathetic old men who still wear their letterman jackets and refuse to listen to any music unless it was popular in their glory years. Some even talk of converting to 3e which is too dead and buried. This is 2006, and 3.5 is the game at hand.
In first and second edition, there were many problems. Too many problems! Why can't everyone see it? Do you still play with ghosts from the past? If I had a dollar for every argument I heard from the TSR days, I would be a rich man. Things like; "No, you can't attack my character he was over there.", "That's not fair.", "That makes No sense! There's no way that could happen.", "I know it says that in that book, but this book says something different.", "A thunderbolt comes from the sky. You're dead because you p***ed off the DM.", "I am the all powerful DM. I am going to screw with your wish just because I can.", "This is my game and my story as the DM. Consider yourself lucky to play a small role in it.", "My 85th level paladin took his army of 10,000 10th level paladins and cleared out the abyss after killing the entire Norse pantheon. What do you mean you can't do that?", "Okay, the psionic creature blasts you 15 times in three segments before you can swing your two-handed sword. You are dead." , "That's my fifteenth character today. I will name him Mumra the 30th.", etc.
Third edition meant to address all these problems. The horribly put together books with huge information gaps and inconsistencies. The control freak DM's who would do whatever they wanted and kill any who even questioned it. The cumbersome and obscure rules that half the population didn't use or understand. The problems with everyone envisioning a completely different scene. ETC. Now, 3.5 has tweaked the few glitches from 3e.
Perhaps the pendulum has swung a little too far. Now there are rules lawyers, because the rules try to be so specific that it seems you need a degree in game mechanics to read them. The players now hold so many cards, the DM can't always trump them. It is easy to get caught up in the rules heavy system and lose sight of the story. There is a fine line to be walked. With a little communication exchange both ways, it still can work for everybody. As long as people play the game, as long as fallible humans make the rules, any system can be a headache. 3.5 is the present, live with it. It is a far better system despite the retirement village crying about wizards' money grabbing techniques.
Maybe my little rant is off the mark. It is the feeling I get from many of those involved. And no, I am not looking for a debate about past systems. They are dead for good reasons.
but it requires some work to convert ships stats (actually it requires to rebuild stats from scratch, counting the number of squares of the deckplans... not a funny thing to do but not difficult)