I ask, is there any way some of the ideas can be improved and the setting redeemed?
The way I see it, maybe. The scenarios published for 2nd Ed and on Athas.org are from a time when a number of monumental changes took place in the history of Athas.
Perhaps if the Paizo timeline, i.e. 300 years after the events of the Prism Pentad, are set also on the verge of number of Athas-transforming events the best ideas therein could be saved?
Just to fire some ideas out there:
1) Hamanu has vanished. After the inevitable kreen invasion of the tablelands and it's successul repulsion (due probably in part to actions of the PCs), Nibenay and the Oba push Hamanu towards progressing towards a fully metamorphosised dragon, because (just as in Rise & Fall) they fear Rajaat's prison will not hold. Instead of the final battle of the novel taking place in the deserts south of Urik, it takes place in the kreen empire, and lasts many, many years, as Hamanu completes two goals, securing the tablelands and becoming a dragon. Urik is ruled by one of Hamanu's sons. The templars still receive spells, though their true king has not been seen in many king's ages. Soon after the description of the Paizo timeine, Hamanu will return, though not in a form that anyone expects...
2) Atzetuk has become a sorcerer king true, though he is not a sorcerer. The boy eventually developed into a powerful psion, broke free of the House of the Mind's and the templarate's influence, and somehow managed to gain the ability to grant powers to his followers. Okay this is a long shot but perhaps, like Dregoth, he managed to get hold of an elemental vortex (I hear groans from the anti-LEV camp already) and after many years discovered how to manipulate it to grant spells to his chosen templars, much like Kalak did through the vortices attached to Sacha and Wyan (for those who are part of the 'Kalak was not a real champion' camp).
3) A surprisingly articulate dune freak stumbles in from the desert who claims that in the depths of despair he saw an apparition of an ancient great one, who gave him a great sentience of mind, told him of the arakore race's noble past and told him to take heart, that he and the other great ones would soon be returning to Athas to restore the world... Madman or visionary. The DM decides :D
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I actually really kind of dig the first idea you came up with, Tyklyk. That was definitely one thing I loved from Abbey's RaFoaDK was the sacrifice Hamanu made for his beloved city of Urik. He may be a villian, but at the same time he has some definite heroic qualities that came into light in that story. He was willing to become a horrific monster to save his people.
-X
Uhhhhhh......
:P
Okay, just trying to probe opinion on a couple of themes. For example, I haven't seen anyone speculate further on the idea of ancient great ones or if they'll ever return. I guess the verdict is madman, for me that is
I've been a lurker for a while, but I love Darksun and the work done on these foruns so I couldn't help posting my comments, since I sometimes feel like a madman miself...
About your second idea:
I was working on the idea that some SK's aren't really dead, only that their "deaths" are part of a complex plan to gather more power on the elemental planes or The Gray... I can't remember the name now, but there's a powerful monster into the Gray that gathers souls to enhance its influence... somewhere into these boards (I think on the thread about Kurn and Eldariich) I read that Rajaat prefered to take energy from the Gray on its early days, and that Daskinor was the only survivor of the first students he had... that said you could toy with the idea that these "gray creatures" are in fact remains of these first students and, considering the nature of undeath on Athas, the souls of the SK's could be easily undissolved on the Gray, praying on travelers and even making deals with unknown powers to increase their influence.
Atzetuk may become stronger as a consequence of his "father" actions in order to recover a position within Draj without revealing his continued existence... maybe even teaching him directly to become a powerful psion and defiler on its own, advancing him as a dragon, in order to finally mind switch with him and rule over old Draj again on a "new existence"...
As you see, plenty of mad ideas...
PS: Forgive my poor english as I'm not a native speaker. :D
1) Hamanu has vanished. After the inevitable kreen invasion of the tablelands and it's successul repulsion (due probably in part to actions of the PCs), Nibenay and the Oba push Hamanu towards progressing towards a fully metamorphosised dragon, because (just as in Rise & Fall) they fear Rajaat's prison will not hold. Instead of the final battle of the novel taking place in the deserts south of Urik, it takes place in the kreen empire, and lasts many, many years, as Hamanu completes two goals, securing the tablelands and becoming a dragon. Urik is ruled by one of Hamanu's sons. The templars still receive spells, though their true king has not been seen in many king's ages. Soon after the description of the Paizo timeine, Hamanu will return, though not in a form that anyone expects...
Curious. I'd personally not use that, but it does sound like you have the beginnings of an interesting campaign there.
2) Atzetuk has become a sorcerer king true, though he is not a sorcerer. The boy eventually developed into a powerful psion, broke free of the House of the Mind's and the templarate's influence, and somehow managed to gain the ability to grant powers to his followers. Okay this is a long shot but perhaps, like Dregoth, he managed to get hold of an elemental vortex (I hear groans from the anti-LEV camp already) and after many years discovered how to manipulate it to grant spells to his chosen templars, much like Kalak did through the vortices attached to Sacha and Wyan (for those who are part of the 'Kalak was not a real champion' camp).
I've never been fond of the "Azetuk becomes a Sorcerer-King" idea... because to me, it just seems extraordinarily weak and lame. The kid's a puppet; he has no magical ability, has very little psionic training. He isn't related to Tek -- the heads of the psionics academy and the remnants of the templars placed him up in his position so they can rule from the shadows. Honestly, I think that is a direction that would make far more sense to develop. Azetuk has no way to become a true Sorcerer-King. First, he isn't a Champion of Rajaat; second, he isn't a Dragon (even Oronis was one when he started), and third, he has no way to grant templars any spells (I don't believe sacha and wyan have any vortices attached to them, as the books point to Borys using the Dark Lens as the point where that happened, and he wouldn't have done that to the two enemy Champions). Azetuk becoming a Sorcerer-King to me, just sounds like someone is reaching and trying to "fix" the setting by restoring a SK to one of the city-states that lost it.
3) A surprisingly articulate dune freak stumbles in from the desert who claims that in the depths of despair he saw an apparition of an ancient great one, who gave him a great sentience of mind, told him of the arakore race's noble past and told him to take heart, that he and the other great ones would soon be returning to Athas to restore the world... Madman or visionary. The DM decides :D
What is an "ancient great one"? The only Great One I can think of, is specific to Thri-Kreen of the tablelands, and only through their genetic memories. Further, it is explained that this basically is an Avangion (or possibly an Avangion and a great Thri-Kreen leader, or just a great Thri-Kreen leader), and Kreen get strong memories flooding in about the Great One when they see an Avangion. So... I'm totally and completely confused by what you mean on this one.
) there with mad ideas 2 and 3.2 was a try at reconciling the bad idea that Atzetuk becomes a sorcerer king.
This was a way of saying that he wasn't a real sorcerer-king, i.e. not a defiler and not a champion, but that he just appeared to be. Why? Because somehow he'd managed to gain the ability of granting spells to his templars. This idea only works out, if you accept that the living elemental vortices survived the death of the SKs in the prism pentad and that they may be manipulated by individuals who learn how. Atzetuk (and this is the long shot) managed to get one and learned how to harness it. I had an explanation for the former but not the latter (how to harness it). I don't feel the vortices idea is popular so I won't pursue it any more.
At the same time, I don't think I'm the only one who would see Atzetuk eventually becoming a power in his own right and throwing off the puppet strings. He just wouldn't become a true SK either in my opinion.
3 - I've seen two references only to ancient great ones: Thri-kreen of Athas and Dead Lands I think, it was in the history of some undead type. It seemed to me to suggest that there had once been noble leaders of all the races (such as the avangion and the thri-kreen leader) who led their races during the cleansing wars. As it became apparent the cleansing wars would be lost and Rajaat would succeed, they left for somewhere, I don't know, not much info here, the planes I guess? It was also suggested that someday they would return. I guess I was trying to spark off any ideas about these guys, where they went, how many there were, would they return? But I might have got the wrong end of the stick on this one and ended up confusing everyone including myself. Perhaps there was only the avangion and the great kreen. Still though, what happened to 'em?
Hi,
I've been a lurker for a while, but I love Darksun and the work done on these foruns so I couldn't help posting my comments, since I sometimes feel like a madman miself...
Thanks Erhebus,
I'm thinking of setting up a self-help group for the deranged. Only the very silly need apply!
3 - I've seen two references only to ancient great ones: Thri-kreen of Athas and Dead Lands I think, it was in the history of some undead type. It seemed to me to suggest that there had once been noble leaders of all the races (such as the avangion and the thri-kreen leader) who led their races during the cleansing wars. As it became apparent the cleansing wars would be lost and Rajaat would succeed, they left for somewhere, I don't know, not much info here, the planes I guess? It was also suggested that someday they would return. I guess I was trying to spark off any ideas about these guys, where they went, how many there were, would they return? But I might have got the wrong end of the stick on this one and ended up confusing everyone including myself. Perhaps there was only the avangion and the great kreen. Still though, what happened to 'em?
The references in TKoA are to a confusion in the genetic memories of Thri-Kreen. However, there is a relationship between the "Great One" and Avangions. There was an inconsistancy thread about it called "The Great What?"