For example: In Krynn he death knights have 10/magic. Has this changed in Ravenloft? I would almost see it as 10/good in the Domains of Dread. Is there any rules for becoming a death knight in Ravenloft?
Any information on this would be appreciated.
You can use either the MM2 (WotC) version or the one from DL (Sovereign Press).
Soth was a darklord, so his powers were enhanced beyond what a non-darklord death knight would probably get in RL.
Good candidates for Death Knight in RL would be any fallen paladin, fallen Knights of the Shadow, or knights in the service of Azalin or Death. Other darklords would have trouble "handling" them given their level of raw power. At least IMHO...
... Lord Soth is the only one I know of and he is from Krynn obviously. I'm curious if his powers changed when he entered Ravenloft. ...
Lors Soth NEVER went to Ravenloft, and there were never any Kender in Ravenloft either.
Lors Soth NEVER went to Ravenloft, and there were never any Kender in Ravenloft either.
Let's not kick that dead horse again, shall we?
In 2e, Soth was in RL and there were vampiric kenders as well (presumably live ones too but, lucky us, they all got lost). W&H tried to invalidate this because they didn't like anyone playing with one of their toys and TSR stated that they were wrong.
Now, in 3.Xe, the new version of DL (by Sovereign Press) may have invalidated officially what has gone before but, let's be honest, they can dance on their head for all the good it does them.
The novels Knight of the Black Rose and Spectre of the Black Rose are canon for RL.
The When Black Roses Bloom adventure is too.
Ditto for the stats of the vampiric kender in the Children of the Night monstrous compendium.
Saying Soth was never there and instead it was a death knight self-titled the "Black Rose" doesn't fool anyone.
Lors Soth NEVER went to Ravenloft, and there were never any Kender in Ravenloft either.
Yeah right... and I guess Ravenloft doesn't exist either?
.
Lors Soth NEVER went to Ravenloft, and there were never any Kender in Ravenloft either.
Soth was in Ravenloft.
Kender were and still are in Ravenloft.
There are plenty of Silvanesti there too.
And Raistlin is totally homosexual.
*ducks*
Sorry, but he never was there. That's been completely retconned. There were never Kender, they were really halflings.
According to WotC, he was in, now he's out. It's done, can't change it.
And he's destroyed too, what more revisionism can you want ???
As Mortepierre said, get over it. This is a ridiculous battle. If you need a worthy cause, there are homeless people in a street near you, or old people that would be happy to get visit.
Joël
I like 'Lance and the Weis/Hickman team, but Soth was in the 'Loft.
Or a dance in the Lance?
Minds have gone soft,
And 3E-ers are entranced.
Was he ever there?
Does Soth use underwear?
Do we know? Should it matter?
Ah, who cares?
Your own campaign will
Bring the "true" answers.
Sorry. Just a little poem I came up with on the spot to help settle the debate.
Two novels, an adventure, two minis, four mentions in core campaign setting books all ignored for one-line reference in a sequel to a sequel added just so the authors can pout.
I like 'Lance and the Weis/Hickman team, but Soth was in the 'Loft.
You forgot to mention his appearance & role in the Playstation videogame "Iron & Blood: Warriors of Ravenloft". It was his team of evil characters that were opposed to the team of good characters in the forced service of Strahd. Soth figured heavily in the games' opening scenes.
Soth figured heavily in the games' opening scenes.
Which is about as far as I could get. yeccch.... what a horrible game.
Sorry, but he never was there. That's been completely retconned. There were never Kender, they were really halflings.
FYI, the Dragonlance official FAQ show much less zealotism:
http://www.dl3e.com/features/faqs/common.aspx
From it:
1.6) Did Lord Soth go to Ravenloft?
Lord Soth appeared in two Ravenloft novels, and in 2nd edition Ravenloft gaming materials put out by Wizards of the Coast. Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, however, maintain that Soth didn't go to Ravenloft. Ultimately, it's up to each individual to make his or her own determination.
And as Jester wrote, when official WotC put Soth (and kenders) in Ravenloft, we couldn't care less about these famous authors' pout, or their talibans.
Joël
FYI, the Dragonlance official FAQ show much less zealotism:
http://www.dl3e.com/features/faqs/common.aspx
From it:
And as Jester wrote, when official WotC put Soth (and kenders) in Ravenloft, we couldn't care less about these famous authors' pout, or their talibans.
Joël
Um...
Sorry, but all he's pointed out is that the official stance of WotC (at this point) is that Soth never was. He might have been a little blunt about it, but at least he never started calling anyone names...
Sorry, but all he's pointed out is that the official stance of WotC (at this point) is that Soth never was. He might have been a little blunt about it, but at least he never started calling anyone names...
I'm sure WotC hasn't released any 3e Ravenloft material. Perhpas this is a reference to the S&S line of RL books, which couldn't make any mention of Dragonlance-specific things because of liscensing issues - the same reasons Hazlik wasn't a Red Wizard, and Thayvian references in his domain were taken out.
I'm sure WotC hasn't released any 3e Ravenloft material. Perhpas this is a reference to the S&S line of RL books, which couldn't make any mention of Dragonlance-specific things because of liscensing issues - the same reasons Hazlik wasn't a Red Wizard, and Thayvian references in his domain were taken out.
Well there's the license issue, but additionally (and more to my point) is the idea that all gaming worlds now have separate cosmologies, not like in 2nd edition. Which in turn made things difficult for the "cross-over" settings, like Planescape, Spelljammer and Ravenloft.
This also caused some problems for some of the regular settings. The Forgotten Realms, for instance, have had to adapt, since Toril has now never been part of the Great Wheel. Other worlds like Krynn had it easier, since it was originally supposed to be separate anyway.
Well there's the license issue, but additionally (and more to my point) is the idea that all gaming worlds now have separate cosmologies, not like in 2nd edition. Which in turn made things difficult for the "cross-over" settings, like Planescape, Spelljammer and Ravenloft.
Separate cosmologies wouldn't inhibit Ravenloft. The Mists could already cross between cosmologies in the 2E era; they nabbed Odaire from Gothic Earth (a separate reality with its own laws of magic, etc) and took Meredoth from Mystara (which was part of the radically-different OD&D cosmology until very late in that setting's history).
Um...
Sorry, but all he's pointed out is that the official stance of WotC (at this point) is that Soth never was. He might have been a little blunt about it, but at least he never started calling anyone names...
Before being blunt and tactless, he is terribly wrong. The official WotC word on the matter is that he was in Ravenloft for a time, otherwise simply there would have been no WotC Ravenloft stuff with him. Simple.
And believe me, I've seen over the years this debate many times, on these forums and elsewhere, and my patience is low with that kind of provocateurs, especially when the Ravenloft FAQ and the Dragonlance FAQ have large points in common on the matter.
Joël
well my daddy says he wasn't!
Was too!
Was Not!
Was too!
Was not!
This is Dicefreaks' template for creating a death knight. It's different from the Monster Manual II listing. It could be worthwhile trying to apply those to a homegrown Soth.
Also, "taliban" with a lowercase 'T' technically means "students" in Arabic. So Joel's post might simply mean "students of the authors".
Before being blunt and tactless, he is terribly wrong. The official WotC word on the matter is that he was in Ravenloft for a time, otherwise simply there would have been no WotC Ravenloft stuff with him. Simple.
And believe me, I've seen over the years this debate many times, on these forums and elsewhere, and my patience is low with that kind of provocateurs, especially when the Ravenloft FAQ and the Dragonlance FAQ have large points in common on the matter.
Joël
TSR was pretty firm that Soth was in Ravenloft. Even when Weis and Hickman fought against it (although, IIRC, it was more Weis and less Hickman) after declaring they didn't care (when they left and tried to write non-Lance novels).
WotC didn't say much, probably because neither setting was seeing much game attention and Soth was quickly returned home, and just in time to die for no apparent reason.
Demiplane of Terror
(Or, The Ballad of Vlad Drakov)
In a massacred village
On a Trademarked Home World
It was a night of beheadings,
And the taking of girls.
Then up ahead in the distance
I saw a shimmering mist
My sight grew blurry and my compass flailed,
I had no means to resist.
There we were in a second,
Surrounded by the undead:
Their empty eyes watched our every move
With their pinpoints of red.
Then they leapt on my soldiers,
To rip their flesh from the bone.
As I pondered my "tactical retreat",
I thought I heard them groan:
Welcome to the Demiplane of Terror!
When you're done fighting, (When you're done fighting)
We think you'll fit right in.
Plenty of room in the Demiplane of Terror:
Such a nice domain
For your war campaigns...
His name was Firan Zal'honan,
He's got the secret police.
He's got a lot of campy vampy stiffs
To keep what passes for peace.
And people flock to his kingdom,
The Core's largest yet.
Some will go and grow wealthy,
But most will go - and Forget.
Then there's Ivan Dilisnya,
He's the one with the wine.
I swear, his vintage will open up your eyes...
For the very last time.
You'll hear those party guests shrieking from miles around,
You'll stick some peasants on your bedroom stakes,
Just to drown that sound.
(I said)
Loving your screams in the Demiplane of Terror!
Live your fantasies (Live your fantasies)
Do just what you please.
Tenancy's free in the Demiplane of Terror!
There's no maintenance tax,
But watch those Powers checks..."
Lightning rods on the ceiling
Quivering brains on ice.
And he said
"Here's a Nietzschean übermensch:
All virtue - and virtually no vice."
Then as the Doc pulled the lever
His child was released.
And you can strike with injuring intent,
But you can't subdue the Beast.
About this time last November,
We invaded again.
Our armies fell like chestnut shells
In the latest Dead Man's Campaign.
"Relax," the voice told me,
"We are programmed to deceive.
Keep on striving for your dearest dreams
And we're pretty sure you'll succeed!"
No reprieve in the Demiplane of Terror,
A peculiar land, (A peculiar land)
I don't understand.
Just one way to leave the Demiplane of Terror:
If Weis and Hickman retcon,
You'll be free to abscond!
Hickman says on his web site that the "real Soth" never was in RL. But like the others said, it is all up to your DM...
Which he concludes with ".. but please don't tell anyone at Wizards of the Coast that I said so."
Soth was in Ravenloft.
Kender were and still are in Ravenloft.
There are plenty of Silvanesti there too.
And Raistlin is totally homosexual.
*ducks*
About the Raistlen part, you probably haven't read the books. Raistlin was in love with Crysania, who was a woman.
I suggest for all the Dragonlance fans who do not want Soth in Ravenloft, make the Lord Soth in Ravenloft be an alternate reality clone in another campaign setting. Kind of like how spells with "Mordenkainen" in their names are left unchanged in the Forgotten Realms, so there probably are famous people with alternate clones in other campaign settings.
Edit: Stupid Double Post!
But really the Raistlin comment was a teasing reference to the debate that has frequented Dragonlance boards again and again. I was just bugging the 'Lance fans.
About the Raistlen part, you probably haven't read the books. Raistlin was in love with Crysania, who was a woman.
I suggest for all the Dragonlance fans who do not want Soth in Ravenloft, make the Lord Soth in Ravenloft be an alternate reality clone in another campaign setting. Kind of like how spells with "Mordenkainen" in their names are left unchanged in the Forgotten Realms, so there probably are famous people with alternate clones in other campaign settings.
Edit: Stupid Double Post!
What are you talking about. It's the same Mordenkainen. Mordenkainen, Dalamar, and Elminster regularly get together in Ed Greenwoods house in order to trade spell secrets. How do you think we get to know all of this stuff about other worlds.;) I mean without that suit of armor that Ed hides in while they meet we probably wouldn't even have D&D.:D
Well, Raistlin couldn't have been too in love with her considering he used her and left her to die, blind and alone in the Abyss.
But really the Raistlin comment was a teasing reference to the debate that has frequented Dragonlance boards again and again. I was just bugging the 'Lance fans.
I rephrase it. He was in "Lust" with her.
By the way, legally, WotC purchased D&D as is, and has no way of undoing ANYTHING that came before hand anyway.
Is that why Vecna is still a prisoner of Ravenloft?
;)
This is getting boring, so less Soth being or not being in Ravenloft, and more death knights! Is Soth the only death knight who was mentioned in canon material or have there been more?
You have at least one Death Knight in Cavituis (Die Vecna Die)
Joël
Joël
So Die Vecna Die was the only place to find more death knights? I realize that they are rare but you'd think with the number of liches, ancient dead, and vampires that there are that there would be more death knights than just a handful!
Just because no Death Knights are described in other domains doesn't mean there aren't some around...
Still, you seem to think there are dozens of major undeads freely roaming RL. Frankly, that would surprise me. I know some of the old VR Guides may have given that impression (especially the one about liches
) but logic dictates this isn't so.Why?
Because if there were so many liches, ancient deads and vampires around:
a) local population would drop fast (obviously mainly in regard to undeads feeding on the living)
b) darklords dislike competition but many of them would find themselves on the losing end of a fight against, say, a lich
c) unless they were all disguise experts, they wouldn't be just a frightening rumor but a terrifying reality (and you lose half the "horror" when it's so)
Remember folks, RL isn't about quantity; it's about quality. As always "more is too much".
20 liches aren't needed if all they are is cannon fodder to hack&slash-type adventurers.
1 lich played by a smart DM with a devious streak is the stuff great rpg stories are made of. Nuff said
Die Vecna Die was published after Wizards had control of the setting, as were various other RL books, such as Carnival. Soth was in Ravenloft when Wizards bought TSR, so they weren't allowed to go back and say he wasn't since Wizards bought the rights to D&D and all D&D settings as is, if I recall correctly.
Uh... think this through. If they now owned D&D in its entirety, lock, stock & barrel, and they decided to make changes, who could have stopped them?
My copy of Specter of the Rose says TSR by the way, not Wizards.
Die Vecna Die, I am not sure about, but I know Vecna Reborn is TSR, and it is a precurser to Die Vecna Die. But as Vecna was a 3.0 listed deity in the PHB, I doubt Die Vecna Die would be 3.0, if Vecna would still be in Ravenloft and there was no Ravenloft material published yet.
They do not have a Time Travelling Device, so reality. Any time they disavow anything that did happened, they are just being irresponsible and immature by not dealing witht he the downsides of the franchise they purchased.
ROLEPLAYING GAMES ARE SERIOUS BUSINESS.
My copy of Specter of the Rose says TSR by the way, not Wizards.
By the time Spectre of the Black Rose was published, TSR existed in name only -- it was just a brand under the WotC umbrella. (It was written because WotC bought TSR and enticed Weis & Hickman back to Dragonlance. As part of that deal, they demanded Soth be returned to the DL setting, thus the necessity of a product to boot Soth from RL.)
They do not have a Time Travelling Device, so reality. Any time they disavow anything that did happened, they are just being irresponsible and immature by not dealing witht he the downsides of the franchise they purchased.
I take it you've never heard of 'retroactive continuity'. Certainly, we can't argue that the books were physically published, what is in question is how much of them remain in the canon.
Things can change from the novels.
Supposedly the whole affair from start to death took only a couple of pages.
Ummmm, so why isn't Soth a new type of undead, extremely P.O.'ed about being killed in such a manner? That's the dumbest way to kill off someone who was "so important" and has lost my respect for Hickman and Weiss!
I thought it was a great send-off, personally. It was nice to see some closure for the character.
I thought it was a great send-off, personally. It was nice to see some closure for the character.
Killed off in the middle of a book with no build-up or resolution to his character?
Is that really the way one of the biggest villains in D&D (name villian in both Ravenloft and Dragonlance and iconic figure if there ever was one) deserves to die? That whole trilogy lead to the death of Takhisis, and she's just the standard "evil god".
Soth deserved his own damn book...
He may no longer be a Darklord, or he may depending on how you want him portrayed. But he can stiil be a very influencial and deadly character in RL with or without the Darklord crown.
Coincedentally, I have the same opinions of Vecna and Kas in RL. The fact that they were there was great. Now that they 'Officially' aren't sucks but that doesn't mean that they aren't really there if you want them to be. There are no greater villians than those two in all the worlds. Others are their equal perhaps, but they are hard to eclipse given the breadth and depth of their depravity, Vecna most of all. I know all about Die Vecna Die, of course but Vecna in his pride assumes the DPs don't know his plots and he is using them. It might just be the other way around after all.
Citadel Cavitius is one of the most original areas in all the worlds. A place where the Undead rule, humans barely exist and only for the pleasure of those undead to use as they see fit.
Lord Soth and Vecna/Kas may no longer be in the 3.0 or 3.5 Ravenloft books but they still exist as far as I am concerned.
And pretty much the rest of the D&D world. But I was never clear on this deal with Vecna. Where is it that he "was never in Ravenloft"?
I was just saying that WotC came along, did a big adventure where Vecna easily escape from Ravenloft and did a number of impossible things (possibly followed up by breakfast a Milliways) before reshaping the universe.
Since then he's ascended to full godhood and Ravenloft has not been mentioned.
Find me a 3E reference where it says he was imprisoned in Ravenflot and escaped. While it's never officially been said he was never in Ravenloft he might as well not have been.
Find me a 3E reference where it says he was imprisoned in Ravenflot and escaped. While it's never officially been said he was never in Ravenloft he might as well not have been.
"Core Beliefs: Vecna", DRAGON #348, "The Secret History of Vecna" sidebar, p. 32. "For a span of several years, Vecna the demigod vanished. While his cult holds that he was either acting on the plot that elevated him to godhood or was undergoing a kind of divine metamorphosis, a few half-crazed planewalkers say Vecna was trapped in the rumored, mist-shrouded Demiplane of Dread. Supposedly, he rules a prison realm of the undead, waging a stalemated war with the neighboring domain of his infamous betrayer, Kas the Bloody-Handed. Although Vecna escaped, supposedly this bleak realm was claimed by a new ruler and still exists somewhere in the mists."
Matthew L. Martin
"Core Beliefs: Vecna", DRAGON #348, "The Secret History of Vecna" sidebar, p. 32. "For a span of several years, Vecna the demigod vanished. While his cult holds that he was either acting on the plot that elevated him to godhood or was undergoing a kind of divine metamorphosis, a few half-crazed planewalkers say Vecna was trapped in the rumored, mist-shrouded Demiplane of Dread. Supposedly, he rules a prison realm of the undead, waging a stalemated war with the neighboring domain of his infamous betrayer, Kas the Bloody-Handed. Although Vecna escaped, supposedly this bleak realm was claimed by a new ruler and still exists somewhere in the mists."
Matthew L. Martin
In other words, there will BE no final word any more conclusive than the slanted reports of his clerics and the gossip of crazies. It's on you to determine the facts, because if articles like this are where you intend to draw your canon from, you're going to have a tough time - as intended.
In other words, there will BE no final word any more conclusive than the slanted reports of his clerics and the gossip of crazies. It's on you to determine the facts, because if articles like this are where you intend to draw your canon from, you're going to have a tough time - as intended.
Understood and agreed with. I was aware of the weakness of the article's statements, but I was more concerned with the fact that Ravenloft was referred to. The fact that the D&D settings are no longer intertwined in a multiverse (except for some tantalizing references to the Shadow Plane) makes it harder to account for the 2E lore, but the Powers That Be are willing to acknowledge it to some extent.
Soth, of course, is the exception, but W&H never acknowledged Soth's presence in Ravenloft while he was there. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
Understood and agreed with. I was aware of the weakness of the article's statements, but I was more concerned with the fact that Ravenloft was referred to. The fact that the D&D settings are no longer intertwined in a multiverse (except for some tantalizing references to the Shadow Plane) makes it harder to account for the 2E lore, but the Powers That Be are willing to acknowledge it to some extent.
Soth, of course, is the exception, but W&H never acknowledged Soth's presence in Ravenloft while he was there. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
I'll do something that I rarely do, which is respond to author and non-game-related business politics and the like. The impression is that W&H indeed never wanted Soth to even visit Ravenloft, and yeah, he was their creation. According to JW - and his word is gospel as far as I'm concerned, because he's certainly closer to knowing the facts than I am ever likely to be - Soth had to be removed from Ravenloft in order to have W&H return and write DL again.
Herein lies one of the reasons I'm afraid to pursue publication of anything I write: Once the WRITING is done, the book, the characters, and the remainder of the literary property become the property of someone else. W&H didn't like Soth going to Ravenloft, but at the time he WENT, they didn't own him. Now, to appease a pair of finnicky artists (I'd be one myself if I could, so I in no way intend disrespect to two of the bestselling authors tied to D&D), they had to return Soth to Krynn from Ravenloft. The fact remains, though, that he was indeed there, no matter how the authors might whine and cry and complain about it. I think having the company use your creation as a strong marketing move should be flattering, but that must be just me.
I apologize for even responding to any discussion of W&H's getdown with Wizards over authoring books set in DragonLance. I don't care one whit about DragonLance; what I do dislike and do get riled up about from time to time is how one person or two people, in their insistence that they get their way, end up causing untold confusion in untold numbers of people because they can't "just let it go," and the fans can't "just drive on" and play the game.
It also makes me INSANE when people just INSIST that things are a certain way, when it has been stated OVER and OVER and OVER again that they are NOT. The argument over whether there was a 3.0 RL DMG that got updated to 3.5, despite the presence of an AUTHOR of the product, just made my skin crawl. I wish that I could isolate all the authors' posts, condense them, and create a messageboards bible that could be referred back to when these SAME BEASTS rear their ugly heads again, and again, and again.
I guess I'm just whining to you because you seem reasonable and are online, Mr. Martin. Thanks for your time. :P
Sorry about that. It won't happen again.
What about World of Kyrnn mabey takes place during Grand Conjunion?
Thus, the difficulty. Very little is put down in definitive form any more, and I agree with that philosophy. These boards have been junked for years with debate over whether Soth actually entered Ravenloft or not, or whether the DragonLord of Kalidnay - whatever his name was - LEFT Dark Sun when he ENTERED Ravenloft, or whether Raistlin is gay or straight, or a THOUSAND other things. Wizards is (in my opinion, wisely) leaving it to the individual DM to make these ultimate decisions about what has happened in the scheme of his or her own cosmology. Read the quote I reposted here, edited ONLY to include bolds to indicate words that make every word IN the quote INCONCLUSIVE. (Except the bolding of Mr Martin's name; I intend no slight, sir. The system does that automatically.)
In other words, there will BE no final word any more conclusive than the slanted reports of his clerics and the gossip of crazies. It's on you to determine the facts, because if articles like this are where you intend to draw your canon from, you're going to have a tough time - as intended.
To be correct on this (don't get me wrong just
:D ) the Dragon Lord of Kalidnay must have left the Darksun setting. A friend of mine lead campaigns in Darksun for years and we talked about RL and Darksun one evening, when we on coincidence came to the connection, he had a book in 2e that mentioned that the whole city ceased to exist in the Darksun Setting and was eager to get to know about it's whereabouts. So I think, it's mentioned somewhere.So Die Vecna Die was the only place to find more death knights? I realize that they are rare but you'd think with the number of liches, ancient dead, and vampires that there are that there would be more death knights than just a handful!
Liches create themselves. Vampires create more vampires with their bite. Some undead rise after a level draining attack. Death Knightes have to be cursed by their gods to become undead, and the gods don't throw that curse out lightly. Soth was cursed because first he lost his honor by stealing that elf girl away and killing his wife. He dragged his friends down with him and holed up in his keep. Then when offered a chance to redeem himself and prevent the near destruction of the world and subsequent departure of the gods, he screwed that up too. That sort of thing doesn't happen very often.
Sorry, but he never was there. That's been completely retconned. There were never Kender, they were really halflings.
And Han shot last...
Is that why Vecna is still a prisoner of Ravenloft?
;)
Vecna became more powerfull than the powers controlling the Demi Plane of Dread and escaped.
That's different than saying that he was never there to begin with...
The DM looks up at the players and says, "Sorry guys, bad news. It looks like WotC has decided that Soth never went to Ravenloft, and as such, you guys could never have done any adventures in his realm. That means I'm going to have to take your experience away that you earned there. Dave, that puts you down two levels and you never found your +2 longsword...: