I haven't found out where those rules are (about multiple armed creatures with levels), could you guys provide a guiding light, please?
Thanks!
PB
Page 299 of the MM has some info on this.
Kreen could also be eligible for Multi-Weapon Fighting, in which case you would have a nightmare on your hands. ;)
Back in 2e one of my players was a Thri-kreen fighter/psionicist with the power Accelerate. We called it the "blender effect."
Back in 2e one of my players was a Thri-kreen fighter/psionicist with the power Accelerate. We called it the "blender effect."
One of my campaigns had a multi-weapon fighting thri-kreen ranger, and the other character in the group was a half-elf psychic warrior who loved 2-handed weapons. Curiously, as we went through the campaign, the only real noticeable difference in how their respective damage outputs turned out was that the TK player had to make a ton more attack rolls & damage rolls than the HE. However they both ended up with roughly the same net total damage (the TK's turn just took longer each round); sometimes the HE did more damage, sometimes the TK did more damage. Either way, combat could be summed up as "The Blender" and "The Guillotine".
If a kreen has montrous multi weapon fighting, how many attacks does it actually get? does this mean it gets 3 attacks with 3 or 4 different weapons by level 12, and a bite?
Can it use two-handed weapons simultaneously with one-handed weapons and can it also get a cleave attack/great cleave. Sheesh, if so, run and hide!
This has also confused the hell outta me under 3rd Ed.
If a kreen has montrous multi weapon fighting, how many attacks does it actually get? does this mean it gets 3 attacks with 3 or 4 different weapons by level 12, and a bite?
Can it use two-handed weapons simultaneously with one-handed weapons and can it also get a cleave attack/great cleave. Sheesh, if so, run and hide!
It's really not confusing (let's see if I can remember the mechanics on this). Multi-weapon fighting, for all intents and purposes, is Two-weapon fighting, but for those with more than 2 arms/hands. All of the weapons after the first get the same number of attacks, at the same bonus/penalty. It is very possible for a TK to wield 2 two-handed weapons, or 1 two-handed weapon and 2 one-handed weapons, or 4 one-handed weapons. Bear in mind, once again, secondary weapons/attacks have a penalty to their attack bonus & number of attacks compared to the primary weapon. It is possible to basically have cleave/great cleave as well as two 1-handed weapons. However, you'll find that they don't hit as often with the secondary weapons, unless they spend few feats...
Anyone willing to spend a number of feats like that, unless they are fighters (or rangers), will become somewhat 1-dimensional, and easily dealt with by exploiting potential weaknesses in the character.
Now, as far as doubling-up of weapons is concerned, I'm not sure if there's an official ruling or not but here's how I'd do it: choose one weapon, whether it's one- or two-handed, as the primary weapon. You get full attacks with that. Any other weapon, be it one- or two-handed, is a secondary weapon and gets a single attack. As above, if the secondary weapons aren't light you're going to suffer a higher penalty, so the smart thing to do would be to use a two-handed weapon as your primary attack and, say, two light weapons as secondary. Since you can also use thrown weapons as secondary weapons, it'd be quite "thri-kreen" to use two chatkas (spelling?) as the secondaries, and a gythka as the primary.
Multi-weapon fighting works identical to two-weapon fighting, except that it applies to creatures with more than 2 arms. So you get full attacks with your primary weapon, and every other weapon is considered secondary - 1 attack each at a -2 penalty. Thus a thri-kreen with 4 weapons and the feat would get full attacks with one of the weapons, and a single attack with each secondary plus with their bite. If the secondary weapon(s) aren't light weapons then the penalty goes up to -4.
There *is* improved, greater, etc. multi-weapon fighting feats as well.
Now, as far as doubling-up of weapons is concerned, I'm not sure if there's an official ruling or not but here's how I'd do it: choose one weapon, whether it's one- or two-handed, as the primary weapon. You get full attacks with that. Any other weapon, be it one- or two-handed, is a secondary weapon and gets a single attack. As above, if the secondary weapons aren't light you're going to suffer a higher penalty, so the smart thing to do would be to use a two-handed weapon as your primary attack and, say, two light weapons as secondary. Since you can also use thrown weapons as secondary weapons, it'd be quite "thri-kreen" to use two chatkas (spelling?) as the secondaries, and a gythka as the primary.
Actually, the thri-kreen in a group I ran had used a gythka and two chatkchas. Of course, I also ruled that he was able to dismantle a gythka into a quarterstaff and two chatkchas, if he had the time (it took a few minutes), and he could re-lash them back together as a gythka. I forget what the DC on the skill check was for that. With that in mind, he then also had the option of a quarterstaff in combat, if he had prepared to use it as such.
There *is* improved, greater, etc. multi-weapon fighting feats as well.
In 3.5e? I thought they got rid of those after 3e due to the ridiculousness of, say, a Marilith with greater multi-weapon fighting.
In 3.5e? I thought they got rid of those after 3e due to the ridiculousness of, say, a Marilith with greater multi-weapon fighting.
Coulda sworn I saw those in 3.5e.
Coulda sworn I saw those in 3.5e.
Just looked it up, the sources are Deities & Demigods, Epic Level Handbook and Savage Species...which are all technically 3e and AFAIK there hasn't been any "official" restating of them in 3.5e. The closest thing I could find to a 3.5e reference was from the 3.5 Update Booklet for the ELH, in which it states that "All non-epic feats that appeared in the Epic Level Handbooknowappear either in the Player’s Handbookor the Monster Manual, with the exception of Improved Flyby Attack (see below). Consult thosebooks for the revised versions of those feats." Since Neither the 3.5e PHB or MM lists Improved/Greater Multiweapon Fighting, unless they appear in one of the later 3.5e Monster Manuals (I only have MM3.5, none of the others) I think it's probably safe to assume that - as of today - they're not "official" feats. True, it could just be an oversight on WotC's part, but the fact that the 3.5e Marilith meets the prereqs for Improved Multiweapon Fighting and yet doesn't have it indicates to me that it wasn't a mistake - if any creature should be able to make a gazillion weapon attacks in a round it's a marilith.
Just looked it up, the sources are Deities & Demigods, Epic Level Handbook and Savage Species...which are all technically 3e and AFAIK there hasn't been any "official" restating of them in 3.5e. The closest thing I could find to a 3.5e reference was from the 3.5 Update Booklet for the ELH, in which it states that "All non-epic feats that appeared in the Epic Level Handbooknowappear either in the Player’s Handbookor the Monster Manual, with the exception of Improved Flyby Attack (see below). Consult thosebooks for the revised versions of those feats." Since Neither the 3.5e PHB or MM lists Improved/Greater Multiweapon Fighting, unless they appear in one of the later 3.5e Monster Manuals (I only have MM3.5, none of the others) I think it's probably safe to assume that - as of today - they're not "official" feats. True, it could just be an oversight on WotC's part, but the fact that the 3.5e Marilith meets the prereqs for Improved Multiweapon Fighting and yet doesn't have it indicates to me that it wasn't a mistake - if any creature should be able to make a gazillion weapon attacks in a round it's a marilith.
There is official restating of them to 3.5e. The official 3.5e SRD includes all of the information from Deities & Demigods, and the ELH (they were deemed part of the OGC).
In fact:
- Relevent file from the official SRD releases: http://wizards.com/d20/files/v35/EpicFeats.rtf
- Improved Multiweapon Fighting from the online SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMultiweaponFighting
- Greater Multiweapon Fighting from the online SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greaterMultiweaponFighting
IMPROVED MULTIWEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 15, three or more arms, Multiweapon Fighting, base attack bonus +9.
Benefit: In addition to the single extra attack a creature gets with each extra weapon from Multiweapon Fighting, it gets a second attack with each extra weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.
Normal: With only Multiweapon Fighting, a creater can only get a single attack with each extra weapon.
Special: This feat replaces the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
GREATER MULTIWEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 19, three or more arms, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Multiweapon Fighting, base attack bonus +15.
Benefit: The creature may make up to three extra attacks with each extra offhand weapon it wields, albeit at a –10 penalty on the third attack with each weapon.
Special: This feat replaces the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
So I think it is safe to assume that they are official 3.5e feats. Considering the SRD is 3.5e, and released by WotC.
Ugh...now I just have to hope that no thri-kreen PCs learn about this. *burns links*
Ah, cool - the SRD I saw them in didn't say 3.5 so I figured it was the 3.0 version.
Deities & Demigods & the ELH were not part of the SRD until 3.5e. That said, when I want to get to the main D&D page, in my browser location, I just type "http://wizards.com/dnd". For d20 stuff (trademarks/SRD/other legal things) I type "http://wizards.com/d20". If you follow the SRD link there it leads to this: Official SRD page, which states that is for version 3.5.
Ugh...now I just have to hope that no thri-kreen PCs learn about this. *burns links*
Honestly, the usefulness for Thri-Kreen isn't nearly as great as you might think. In fact, I've found that it balances out still compared to other races (wielding 2-handed weapons), simply because the reduced attack bonuses makes more misses happen. There just is a ton of dice rolls made.
Honestly, the usefulness for Thri-Kreen isn't nearly as great as you might think. In fact, I've found that it balances out still compared to other races (wielding 2-handed weapons), simply because the reduced attack bonuses makes more misses happen. There just is a ton of dice rolls made.
Thanks for the links - the one I kept getting to wasn't the same.
As for the thri-kreen...I have a two-weapon fighting gladiator in my group right now, and damage-wise she does about the same as the two-handed-weapon gladiator does (he does more, really, but he's also a power-attack guy with higher strength while she has the Dex and such, as befits the two-weapon fighting requirements). But yes, the amount of rolling is, in the end, the big difference between the two.
If the female gladiator were a thri-kreen, however, for the same feats and prereqs she'd be making *twice* as many attacks as she does now, and at the same to-hit modifiers; in theory that should mean that, on average, twice as many hit as are currently hitting. Although I agree that fighting with more than one weapon is, at best, balanced (damage-wise) with someone wielding a two-handed weapon, the additional two arms, each performing more than one extra secondary attack, is going to offset that. Number-wise I just don't see how it wouldn't.
Thanks for the links - the one I kept getting to wasn't the same.
As for the thri-kreen...I have a two-weapon fighting gladiator in my group right now, and damage-wise she does about the same as the two-handed-weapon gladiator does (he does more, really, but he's also a power-attack guy with higher strength while she has the Dex and such, as befits the two-weapon fighting requirements). But yes, the amount of rolling is, in the end, the big difference between the two.
If the female gladiator were a thri-kreen, however, for the same feats and prereqs she'd be making *twice* as many attacks as she does now, and at the same to-hit modifiers; in theory that should mean that, on average, twice as many hit as are currently hitting. Although I agree that fighting with more than one weapon is, at best, balanced (damage-wise) with someone wielding a two-handed weapon, the additional two arms, each performing more than one extra secondary attack, is going to offset that. Number-wise I just don't see how it wouldn't.
The thing is, it works, when you set the attack roll to being 50% of the total range of a d20 (11 or better). However, when the attack roll DC needs higher than an 11 or better to succeed, the number of rolls being made actually start to fall in towards a bell-curve configuration (when totalled for an entire turn). The results become skewed -- even if each individual roll has no bell-curve effect, the summed results for the turn do. Each subsiquent attack made has an additional -5 penalty to it, meaning that even if the initial attacks had the need for an 11 or better to succeed roll, very quickly, those odds get way worse. Combining it all together, you'll find that the laws of probability will result in a much lower overall gain per turn. Multiple arms (more than 2) do help, but it isn't as much as you may be thinking it is, and the net damage results will only be slightly better, yet still within reasonable balance.
All those extra rolls don't exactly help things as much as they really tend to slow down the turn. Let a character in your group get up to greater (or in epic levels, perfect) multi-weapon fighting... and I guarentee that everyone will get sick of the 12 (or 13, with perfect multiweapon fighting & bite) attack rolls that are made, with an average of maybe 1/3 actually succeeding (esp. in epic levels). My experience (and this is actual play experience, not just the paper-pushing number-crunching I do as well) is that the net gain in damage output from that does not really cover the cost in time to make all those freaking rolls. It doesn't even come close.
All those extra rolls don't exactly help things as much as they really tend to slow down the turn. Let a character in your group get up to greater (or in epic levels, perfect) multi-weapon fighting... and I guarentee that everyone will get sick of the 12 (or 13, with perfect multiweapon fighting & bite) attack rolls that are made, with an average of maybe 1/3 actually succeeding (esp. in epic levels). My experience (and this is actual play experience, not just the paper-pushing number-crunching I do as well) is that the net gain in damage output from that does not really cover the cost in time to make all those freaking rolls. It doesn't even come close.
Heh, that's *exactly* the situation we're in now; Epic levels, and unfortunately the person who decided to do the two-weapon thang is also the one that doesn't pre-roll anything. I've gotten to the point where, when her turn comes up, as soon as she tells me who she's attacking I just give her the AC, tell her if any special abilities/weapon powers/etc. won't apply (as in, if the enemy has DR or energy resistance versus her acidic weapon, can't be crit'ed, etc.), then let her roll while I move on to the next person. For awhile it was really bad, with everyone getting antsy and frustrated, but it's not a big deal anymore since 9 out of 10 times whomever she's attacking is left alone by everyone else since, at this level, odds are either she's going to totally massacre the thing or else it's going to take several rounds to kill, in which case others can confidently do their attacks against it without worrying too much that her attacks will kill it first.
Can't say as I've ever sat down and looked at the numbers, but I also use a hit-location system for the PCs and important NPCs which totally skews this - critical hits affect enemies with locations differently than normal, in a way that benefits those that are getting more crits. And her character has gone that route, specializing in elven longblades and other high-threat-range weapons so that she can get as many crits as possible.
But for a normal game, your bell-curve theory does sound about right; I hadn't thought of the non-linearity of it before, but I guess in most cases it's going to either be a slaughter (low enemy AC) regardless of the # of attacks or else only a couple are going to hit no matter how many you get, end result being the same between thri-kreen-blender and other-guy-with-big-sword.
Remember, while thri-kreen are dangerous fighters, this power comes at a price (level adjustment, short life expectancy ...). And you don't have to play hack'n slay style.
A kreen with a BAB of 16+ and improved multiweapon fighting has 11 attacks. Nasty. To speed up the turn, I suggest putting together multiple attacks in a single roll.
The Thri-kreen in the one group I had which started going the multi-weapon way of combat (because the player thought it would be cool) had 20 levels of ranger (that is +20/+15/+10/+5 BAB for his primary weapon), and had gotten up to Perfect Multiweapon Fighting (Epic Feat), so his secondary attacks had BAB's of +15/+10/+5/+0 each. Add the +4 Epic Attack Bonus to those, plus his Strength modifier, and other bonuses, that meant he had something like +30/+25/+20/+15 on the primary, and then +25/+20/+15/+10 on his secondaries. He alternated weapons, but did like the "blender" concept, with 4 chatkchas (he had them psionically enhanced by a party member). Plus, he had his bite.
That was 17 attacks a round -- insane, to be sure. However, against epic-level opponents, his net average was getting about 1/3 of those attacks to actually hit (about 4 - 5), with the rest of them basically missing. In order to speed up combat, he would actually have a ton of dice out, and would, during everyone else's turn, start rolling out attacks, leaving the dice in groups (attack & damage), so when it got to his turn, he'd just count them off in order to determine if the attacks hit, and then how much damage was done.
He was impressive in a fight, I even had it that after a while, just the mere action of his lashing out in that way was somewhat intimidating (+1 or +2 modifier to morale check DC's when I did them) to opponents -- who would want to have to deal first-hand with a Thri-Kreen blender?
Back in 2e one of my players was a Thri-kreen fighter/psionicist with the power Accelerate. We called it the "blender effect."
That´s nothing - it could be used with time dilation too! However, sooner or later you would encounter someone with kinetic control, and then it backfired. :P
That´s nothing - it could be used with time dilation too! However, sooner or later you would encounter someone with kinetic control, and then it backfired. :P
Well yes, actually, although IIRC the PC death was due to the Kinetic Control "popping" themselves rather than being released - they'd stored up a bunch of energy then got hit with a massive dispel or something similar, whatever it is that causes you to take the damage yourself.
Nasty thing, that.
Kreen could also be eligible for Multi-Weapon Fighting, in which case you would have a nightmare on your hands. ;)
Particularly if the 12th level kreen happened to be fighting his main favored enemy, @ +6 damage per hit.
8 attacks/round with 5d6 sneak damage on each when he succeeds on Feint as a free action?
I can't wait to psionic dominate him and turn him on the rest of the party...