On the face of it, it appears to be an easy task: they just become elementals. In 2e they didn't need a metamorphosis spell and on the whole were less powerful than their arcane counterparts. Would a 10-level epic PrC that eventually spit out an elemental somewhere around "Monolith" power (with dragon-like spellcasting/power advancement) be in the ballpark of interesting or balanced?
Apologies if this has been tackled already or is on the docket for official conversion, though I'd appreciate thoughts, especially if this has been considered in the past.
the divine advanced beings are right after avangions actually. So as soon as we finnish up the avangions.... we will be working on Spirits of the Land and Cleric Elementals
we are very likely to add in other stuff to this to make it comparable to the dragons and avangions balance wise..... though it may not be quite as powerful as they will not require epic spells to transform.
The problem with Advanced Beings is... Dragons are pretty well laid out, full of information on them in the 2e materials. Second comes avangions, which have less information on them than Dragons (in the mechanics and setting). Then comes the Elementals which are significantly less-developed and complete than the two arcane Advanced Beings. The one with the absolute least amount of information on them is the Spirits of the Land. We are going to attempt to put all the Advanced Beings on equivalent power, which means there's some buffing that will be going to the Divine AB's to pull them up to where the arcane ones are at.
I'm not certain if we will be using the same kind of progression as the arcane AB's. In the 2e materials, they were handled a bit differently all together -- rather than metamorphosizing into a new creature all together, they seem to almost "transfigure" and gain a sort of dual-nature, their original species, and then something... else.
At the most rudimentary level, the elemental transformation could really just be the wild shape (elemental) ability, except with a different way of measuring duration (i.e. the "forced change time" from 2e) and made an (Ex) ability so that it can't be dispelled or nullified in an antimagic field (which would go along with the 2e rules as well).
If this is not the case, i.e. that they just dissappear, it would be really useful to describe one with a bit of history and background a little bit like is found with some of the undead templates in Terrors of the Dead Lands. What the SKs opinion of them are (neutral?) how he/she managed to survive, what they do in pursuit of their goals etc. A tall order perhaps.
I'm for sticking pretty closely to the 2e version of cleric elementals, maybe changing their type right off the bat but otherwise making it more of a "shapeshifting" type of thing (plus the summoning, etc. are good ideas) instead of a full-blown AB metamorphosis-type of progression. An Epic PrC for sure, but one that's meant to be "epic" due to the PrC abilities and not necessarily because the character is physically changing into something else. On the other hand, I do like the "forced change" aspect of the original class, so *shrug*.
The "forced change" aspect is interesting, but I'd also like to see the Elementals be able to revert to their original form. I've sort of looked at it with the notion that the Elementals are able to masquerade and hide among mortals (same with the Spirits of the Land), thus making it that a plausable reason they haven't been seen/recorded in history -- they remain hidden.
At the most rudimentary level, the elemental transformation could really just be the wild shape (elemental) ability, except with a different way of measuring duration (i.e. the "forced change time" from 2e) and made an (Ex) ability so that it can't be dispelled or nullified in an antimagic field (which would go along with the 2e rules as well).
Extremely rudimentary, and poor-fitting description. Mainly because I'm not certain that they "merely become elementals". I think they would become something like elemental "princes" of sorts. I've pictured them as literally becoming a physical manifestation of their patron elemental plane. Almost like an elemental vortex, linking their patron plane to the physical Athas. They gain mastery overy the creatures & inhabitants of their plane, and can summon them to do their bidding. They can grant spell power to other clerics of the same element (being actually one with the divine energies of that plane).
Going on the 2nd Ed description, I had the idea that clerics at the final level of metamorphosis, i.e. 30th level under 2nd ed., depart Athas permanently for the plane they serve, since they are fully changed (24hours a day) into an elemental beings and secondly for the simple reason that none are mentioned in any source I've read. Dragons and Avangions we have examples of, but no elemental advanced beings.
I dunno, I think it would suck to make a character that once you finish this process, you basically become an NPC. That would not make the process appealing to me one bit.
If this is not the case, i.e. that they just dissappear, it would be really useful to describe one with a bit of history and background a little bit like is found with some of the undead templates in Terrors of the Dead Lands. What the SKs opinion of them are (neutral?) how he/she managed to survive, what they do in pursuit of their goals etc. A tall order perhaps.
as I mentioned above, I think they are still around, just hiding among the people.
In 2e, as I recall, all you got out of the transformation was the ability to turn into, literally, an elemental. Nothing special, there. Although I don't think that's fitting for a 3.5e EPrC, especially an Advanced Being, it's still probably the place where the class should start. The idea that they become something other than an elemental is an "after the fact" thing, might be a direction to go with but it's not the way 2e did it.
Yea, the 2e materials tho, had the Elemental transformations be rather.... wimpy. That's one of the things I'd like to see changed. We're talking a divine Advanced Being here, not some weakling. As as I said, I have my own particular vision for these (just like I do for the Spirits of the Land), and I would like some of that to get integrated into the mechanics... because strict adherence to the 2e materials will do nothing mut make crappy divine AB's.
Yea, the 2e materials tho, had the Elemental transformations be rather.... wimpy. That's one of the things I'd like to see changed. We're talking a divine Advanced Being here, not some weakling. As as I said, I have my own particular vision for these (just like I do for the Spirits of the Land), and I would like some of that to get integrated into the mechanics... because strict adherence to the 2e materials will do nothing mut make crappy divine AB's.
No real arguments there, at least as far as 2e being wimpy and the 3e versin needing to be "more" is concerned, but I still contend that the best course would be to keep them as "true elementals" rather than something totally new and unique like an "elemental prince." There's all sorts of related abilities - elemental summoning, additional spells, etc. - that can be used that creating a "new" type of elemental entity really isn't necessary, not to mention that elementals can get a lot more powerful in 3e than 2e (elemental monoliths and the epic ones - primals? Something like that). For instance, if you were to combine the two DS elemental-based PrCs (Elementalist and Elemental Master...?), throw in the ability to transform into an elemental as an extraordinary ability and at increasing levels of power, and throw in some other things as well...true, it may not be a perfect match with a Dragon or Avangion, but without the need for metamorphosis spells they *shouldn't* be. The spells involve a lot of time, money and XP to pull off, so if you're not going to have them as a part of the divine transformations you really can't compare the arcane and divine ABs directly; too apples-and-oranges at that point.
No real arguments there, at least as far as 2e being wimpy and the 3e versin needing to be "more" is concerned, but I still contend that the best course would be to keep them as "true elementals" rather than something totally new and unique like an "elemental prince."
What do you think I mean when I say "elemental prince"? I envision basically what a "true elemental is" with extra features/things that make it more impressive, and more along the line of an Advanced Being. I think you just might be confused by my terminology?
There's all sorts of related abilities - elemental summoning, additional spells, etc. - that can be used that creating a "new" type of elemental entity really isn't necessary, not to mention that elementals can get a lot more powerful in 3e than 2e (elemental monoliths and the epic ones - primals? Something like that). For instance, if you were to combine the two DS elemental-based PrCs (Elementalist and Elemental Master...?), throw in the ability to transform into an elemental as an extraordinary ability and at increasing levels of power, and throw in some other things as well...true, it may not be a perfect match with a Dragon or Avangion, but without the need for metamorphosis spells they *shouldn't* be. The spells involve a lot of time, money and XP to pull off, so if you're not going to have them as a part of the divine transformations you really can't compare the arcane and divine ABs directly; too apples-and-oranges at that point.
I understand that it won't be a perfect fit -- comparing dragon/avangion AB progressions to elemental/spirit ones. There is a bit more of an investment on the parts of the arcane AB's than the divine ones. But, I think that there still is plenty of room to expand on the AB progressions.
Like I said before, when I say "elemental prince", it is only because I want to qualify that they are an elemental, but also "something else", something a bit more -- something that makes them be Advanced Beings. In the end, they are elementals (mechanically), with a couple extra bonuses -- like the ability to revert to their original species/appearance (a disguise, more or less), the ability to summon other elementals on a whim (if they are some sort of odd conduit between their elemental/paraelemental plane, then it could be possible that they act almost as a gateway for it, and have relative ease summoning these other elementals more or less at will), possibly even a means to simply step into that plane and out of it at will as well.
One major thing I'd like to see with the divine AB's is that in order to take levels in the PrC at all, one of the prerequisites is to have your patron actually let you start. You can only become a divine AB if your patron (spirit of the land or element/paraelement... I'd like to keep exactly what that means vague and up to the DM) desires it. If that patron doesn't want you to advance in that particular way... you never can become one (so... player characters owuld have to figure out how to prove themselves to their patron, which could lead to a whole campaign all by itself). That would also tend to lead to a significant reduction in the number of potential divine AB's -- not everyone gets selected for the honor.
Another fun one I think would be great, is for the divine advanced beings to be able to grant spells to mortals (elementals would be able to grant spells to clerics of the same element; spirits of the land could grant spells to druids who follow that spirit). I'd see it as some form of leadership capability, gaining followers, without any real need to over-emphasize the mechanics as to how exactly this works.
you're a fire elemental cleric, you come accross a huge swath of forest created by a defiler through use of an artifact so he can sap the forest for his next transformation spell... so.. since the area is rather large, and the time rather short, rather than call forth a few jugernaughts, instead swarms fo hundreds of lesser elementals pour through one or more portals and begin to set everything ablaze!!! swiftly flowing through the entire forest setting things on fire faster than can be prevented...
just a thought.. your patron elemental plane could be your "fortress" or kingdom of sorts.. (guarded land for druids/spirits) and since there are elementals on Athas, spirits could call a variety... like a swarm of lesser water or rain elementals to stop a forest fire..
Actually, back when I heard "elemental prince" I immediately thought of some variation of the leadership feats... keep the idea open of summoning powerful elementals, but also keep in mind a hord/swarm/ton/huge bunch of lesser elementals at your beck and call...
you're a fire elemental cleric, you come accross a huge swath of forest created by a defiler through use of an artifact so he can sap the forest for his next transformation spell... so.. since the area is rather large, and the time rather short, rather than call forth a few jugernaughts, instead swarms fo hundreds of lesser elementals pour through one or more portals and begin to set everything ablaze!!! swiftly flowing through the entire forest setting things on fire faster than can be prevented...
just a thought.. your patron elemental plane could be your "fortress" or kingdom of sorts.. (guarded land for druids/spirits) and since there are elementals on Athas, spirits could call a variety... like a swarm of lesser water or rain elementals to stop a forest fire..
Kind of what I was thinking as well, in a way.
What do you think I mean when I say "elemental prince"? I envision basically what a "true elemental is" with extra features/things that make it more impressive, and more along the line of an Advanced Being. I think you just might be confused by my terminology?
Yup, terminology issue - you previously mentioned that you thought this would be "something like an elemental vortex...able to grant spells..." in relation to the idea of an "elemental prince" so in my mind it took on different connotations I think. And since I'm against the ability to bestow powers to clerics (although I think it'd be nifty if there was, say, an "elemental aura" that boosted caster levels and the strength of elementals in the vicinity of the cleric AB) that idea stuck with me. But I think we're probably on the same page, more-or-less, if we both drop our pre-conceived definitions of "elemental prince" versus "just an elemental".
I understand that it won't be a perfect fit -- comparing dragon/avangion AB progressions to elemental/spirit ones. There is a bit more of an investment on the parts of the arcane AB's than the divine ones...Like I said before, when I say "elemental prince", it is only because I want to qualify that they are an elemental, but also "something else"...that makes them be Advanced Beings.
Agreed; terminology issue is all, good catch.
In the end, they are elementals (mechanically), with a couple extra bonuses -- like the ability to revert to their original species/appearance (a disguise, more or less), the ability to summon other elementals on a whim (if they are some sort of odd conduit between their elemental/paraelemental plane, then it could be possible that they act almost as a gateway for it, and have relative ease summoning these other elementals more or less at will), possibly even a means to simply step into that plane and out of it at will as well.
I like all of those ideas, as well as my above-mentioned "aura" concept which would, in a way, even relate it to other ABs (Avangion, in this case).
One major thing I'd like to see with the divine AB's is that in order to take levels in the PrC at all, one of the prerequisites is to have your patron actually let you start...That would also tend to lead to a significant reduction in the number of potential divine AB's -- not everyone gets selected for the honor.
Agreed; I already consider *any* AB transformation to be as much a matter of in-game events as game mechanics, so working it directly into the EPrC would be fine by my. The abstract prereq of "Special: Character must have been chosen by a powerful representative of his/her patron element to take this class" would work for me, as it gives the DM - and even the player - full ability to "fill in the blanks" as it were.
Another fun one I think would be great, is for the divine advanced beings to be able to grant spells to mortals (elementals would be able to grant spells to clerics of the same element; spirits of the land could grant spells to druids who follow that spirit). I'd see it as some form of leadership capability, gaining followers, without any real need to over-emphasize the mechanics as to how exactly this works.
My prob with this is that it's too S-K-like, IMO. And especially from the standpoint of "cleric ABs aren't widely known because they can hide amongst the public" it doesn't really make any sense. I think my "aura" idea is a better way of doing it; they can give bonuses to aligned clerics and such, but no actual bestowal of spellcasting abilities.
Plus, this really isn't something that you can just give to a PC and not explain the mechanics for...no player I know is going to be okay with "Yeah, you can bestow cool powers upon your followers, but I'm just going to ad-hoc the effects and not really go into details about what's going on." I mean, really... :P
My prob with this is that it's too S-K-like, IMO. And especially from the standpoint of "cleric ABs aren't widely known because they can hide amongst the public" it doesn't really make any sense. I think my "aura" idea is a better way of doing it; they can give bonuses to aligned clerics and such, but no actual bestowal of spellcasting abilities.
Actually, it is exactly because it is like the SK's, that I think lends to relevance. the SK's more or less are stealing divine energy from the elemental planes to power their templars. Basically, hijacking a mechanic that would, in my view, be natural for a divine AB to have. Even if an AB is granting power to clerics or druids, I don't see how this would make them impossible to "hide in the public" like you say. Or are you reading too much into the notion? Bear in mind, the mere ability to grant Templars their spells does not impact at all how visible a sorcerer-king is or isn't. It just provides a sort of leadership base -- a group of devoted followers that work for the sorcerer-king. Other factors greatly impact the visibility of the sorcerer-king.
Plus, this really isn't something that you can just give to a PC and not explain the mechanics for...no player I know is going to be okay with "Yeah, you can bestow cool powers upon your followers, but I'm just going to ad-hoc the effects and not really go into details about what's going on." I mean, really... :P
I'm not saying they 'bestow cool powers onto their followers'. Never once said that, so please don't be reading it into the thing. I see it more as an alteration/adjustment of the Leadership feat -- only specifically for clerics of the AB's element or druids. The AB grants spell power to these beings (their normal, everyday spells, nothing extra spiffy, can't just go and replenish all the spells for that cleric/druid in question any more than the cleric or druid already has). As such, the clerics and druids recieving their power through the AB, tend to follow that AB. It is a leadership mechanic thing -- as the AB advances, more clerics or druids add to the numbers of followers of that AB, and do what the AB requests. For druids -- we already know that they follow the Spirits of the Land, and that SotL's give them their power. Elementals could be similar -- but with a few adjustments (like the clerics really could get their power from *any* elemental AB of their element, not just that one in particular; unlike the druids, which I think would be linked to a specific SotL).
It provides an avenue for interesting situations that divine AB's have. It also can be seen as an almost counter-balance to the arcane AB's -- one which the sorcerer-kings more or less have ripped off (even inadvertently). I'm not necessarily saying that they even need to do this -- they don't have to have a group of followers around them (in some cases, it could be problematic), but I think it would be an interesting mechanic to "flesh out" the divine AB's a bit more.
The reason the mechanics can be left out, is because the actual mechanics as to how the Elemental grants this spell power is really unimportant -- it just happens (and could be defined then by individual players/DM's). The benefits of this would be akin to the Leadership feat, albeit a bit more restrictive in range of followers (to just clerics of the same element or specific druids in the case of SotL's). The Elemental just has the power flow through him or her to the clerics that follow him or her -- providing themselves as "conduits" that can extend the reach of this divine energy across Athas (especially the near-dead Athas where several elements are... well... having it rough here, and their influence doesn't extend very far through normal conditions). I'm not seeing this necessarily as a "church" organization or anything, just the Elementals doing their part to extend the reach of their patron planes across Athas.
To put it another way, if clerical ABs exist, and they are capable of granting spell power to clerics, then it'd be reasonable to assume that there would be some pre-existing DS material to back up this idea. There might be, perhaps, but AFAIK there isn't. It's like with the Avangion; the end result is going to embody as much of the 2e game mechanics as well as game/novel fluff as possible to "fill out" the Avangion, but everything being done is based on *something* pre-existing.
...and that of course is just my opinion on this; if the Bureau decides to go with it then no biggie, as a possibility I'll grant that it's worth mentioning, I just don't think that there's enough pre-existing data on the role of the elemental planes and clerics on Athas to justify it as part of the AB write-up.
Now, druids on the other hand - it definitely could work for them. There's ample material that says they get their power from SotL, so if the druidic AB involves becoming a SotL then the ability to grant spells would work wonderfully. In fact, it could tie together all sorts of "undiscussed" aspects of Athasian life and history, such as the origins of the SotLs, why Athasian druids draw their power specifically from an SotL rather than from "natural forces" in general, why they tend to "bind" themselves to particular pieces of land, etc.
I never mentioned "druidic ABs" as opposed to "cleric ABs" before, and I tried not to say "divine AB" for that very reason, so I guess it's worth specifically mentioning that I like the idea in regards to the druids.
It's only the clerics that I don't think should have it.
All in all, the issue I have with cleric ABs (not druidic ABs, necessarily) being able to grant spells stems down to the fact that, AFAIK, there aren't any examples of this in any of the DS literature and on the contrary everything points at their connection being directly to the elemental planes themselves via a conduit. I realize this doesn't *exclude* the idea that a cleric AB could do this, but it strikes me as being a little too far away from our sources to be worth doing, and in fact probably adds too many extra elements (no pun intended) to easily fit into the grand scheme of things. For instance, if an elemental AB was capable of providing spells to clerics, and those clerics knew that they were getting their spells from an AB rather than from the elemental plane itself, then why haven't we heard anything about it before? Is there some huge clerical conspiracy going on where those lucky few who are gathering spell energy from an AB are concealing the fact that they're not getting it through the "normal means" in order to hide/protect the AB? It does make sense that a clerical AB would have a stronger connection to their plane of worship, but to throw in the ability to grant spells to others isn't necessary and sounds to me like too much of a "world modification" to be justifiable in an athas.org release.
To put it another way, if clerical ABs exist, and they are capable of granting spell power to clerics, then it'd be reasonable to assume that there would be some pre-existing DS material to back up this idea. There might be, perhaps, but AFAIK there isn't. It's like with the Avangion; the end result is going to embody as much of the 2e game mechanics as well as game/novel fluff as possible to "fill out" the Avangion, but everything being done is based on *something* pre-existing.
...and that of course is just my opinion on this; if the Bureau decides to go with it then no biggie, as a possibility I'll grant that it's worth mentioning, I just don't think that there's enough pre-existing data on the role of the elemental planes and clerics on Athas to justify it as part of the AB write-up.
Who says there is nothing about it in existing materials? There are plenty of points where in the materials, clerics are seen to have given names to their element, and worshipped that element as a god. What if that is actually an Elemental AB? What if the cleric isn't either capable of, or being informed of what an Elemental AB is? What if these "elemental gods" that are worshipped periodically are more than just figments of their imaginations sometimes?
While we're at it... what if the clerics don't necessarily need to know which Elemental they are recieving their spells from -- if it is from an Elemental at all? What if the mere presence of an Elemental in the area extends the scope and reach of that particular plane's influence in the world, and how far the divine energies can go? Elementals don't necessarily have to tell the clerics what is going on... They also may be inclined not to (after all... the Athasian clerics tend to be a bit individualistic). One could simply be going about, as a mentor to clerics in the region, without those clerics really know what's up.
All of this is possible with my idea, all of it does not require any "world modification" to the existing setting. It provides an insight into the Elemental AB's -- which like the SotL's are pretty darned under-defined in the existing setting. It provides a "link" between the two divine AB's, and gives them a way to be able to come up to par a bit with the Arcane AB's.
Now, druids on the other hand - it definitely could work for them. There's ample material that says they get their power from SotL, so if the druidic AB involves becoming a SotL then the ability to grant spells would work wonderfully. In fact, it could tie together all sorts of "undiscussed" aspects of Athasian life and history, such as the origins of the SotLs, why Athasian druids draw their power specifically from an SotL rather than from "natural forces" in general, why they tend to "bind" themselves to particular pieces of land, etc.
I never mentioned "druidic ABs" as opposed to "cleric ABs" before, and I tried not to say "divine AB" for that very reason, so I guess it's worth specifically mentioning that I like the idea in regards to the druids.
It's only the clerics that I don't think should have it.
For the Elementals, I see there being a bit less of a personal connection -- clerics can migrate around, and would recieve their spells from really any Elemental AB in the area that is of the same patron -- and may not even need to get spells from an Elemental AB if within close enough range to a source or wellspring of his or her element (an elemental shrine, the Sea of Silt for silt clerics, etc.) Your idea of an aura might work a bit along these lines -- the mere presence of an Elemental AB in an area can help provide spells to clerics within range.
The SotL's for the druids, on the other hand, tend to be focused around specific locations, and would probably get more involved with each druid, grooming them and tending to them to develop the druid in a specific way. Druids tend to be, from hat I have seen, focused on a specific Spirit of the Land, rather than a more generalized source like the clerics would be. The specific relationship would result in the druids being far more aware as to what is giving them their spells than a cleric would be. However, in both cases, I can see where the Advanced Beings are used as extensions and conduits to let the divine energy be able to reach out to divine spellcasters.
In a sense, what the sorcerer-kings do is a bit closer to what I see for the druids/SotL's -- however it might actually require more conscious effort on the part of the sorcerer-king than it does to a SotL (even though the sorcerer-kings have done it for so long, that they are only mildly aware of it any more). The Elemental AB's would have the least conscious effort, if you could even think of it as a conscious effort on their part at all. The SotL's fall between what the sorcerer-kings do, and what the Elemental AB's do.
Who says there is nothing about it in existing materials? There are plenty of points where in the materials, clerics are seen to have given names to their element, and worshipped that element as a god. What if that is actually an Elemental AB? What if the cleric isn't either capable of, or being informed of what an Elemental AB is? ... What if the mere presence of an Elemental in the area extends the scope and reach of that particular plane's influence in the world, and how far the divine energies can go? ...
I threw in "AFAIK" as I don't actually know if there's anything about it in existing materials - just that I can't think of any. Your "what if's" are definitely possible, and maybe even plausible...my concern is, however, whether or not it adds to the Elemental AB in a way that makes sense to everyone, or does it raise too many questions to be worthwhile? Since we *are* dealing with "what if" interpretations here, as opposed to specific rulings and fluff text related to those rulings, my position is that it requires that we actually create gaps in existing material that aren't really there so that we can insert this idea into the equation - and that doesn't sound like a good idea to me. We've got multiple explainations about how the inner planes lie close to Athas, how there are elemental conduits to the PMP through which elemental energies flow, and that the clerics connect to their "gods" (on the elemental planes, or the planes themselves...nothing that I'm aware of, again, suggests otherwise) on the inner planes from which they receive their divine abilities. What already exists works, and there are so many other possible routes to take the Elemental AB in that I just don't think this idea is worthwhile from them.
Unless someone can find a specific reference to clerics having the capability of drawing their energy from a source that exists on Athas itself, I just can't see any amount of debate changing my opinion on this.
But it's just my opinion - I'm as curious to see what athas.org does with this AB as everyone else is, be it a spell-granting being or not.
All of this is possible with my idea, all of it does not require any "world modification" to the existing setting.
...but it does! You're changing how everyone would perceive elemental clerics and their role on Athas by adding new ideas rather than expounding on the existing ideas, so you are modifying the world. Saying that an Elemental AB is either the "real" source of elemental magic, or "another" source of it, is a modification to the game world, and IMO a pretty major one at that. Saying that they merely influence elemental spellcasting around them, as I'm proposing, is also a modification, sure...but all it requires is a game mechanic to put into place - very little explaination is needed for it ("their potent connection to the elemental plane extends around them as an emanation, increasing the spell potency of nearby clerics").
We've already seen how much debate has raged over the Energy Reserve (and related) aspects of the Avangion release; I can already imagine how much worse it'd be if this aspect was included in the Elemental AB build, and just don't see how it'd be worth it.
It provides a "link" between the two divine AB's, and gives them a way to be able to come up to par a bit with the Arcane AB's.
The 2e elemental AB, at least, had access to psionic enchantments, and IIRC so did the druid - so there's a connection between the two as well as one between them and the arcane AB's. And I don't really see how this ability would help bring them up to par with an Arcane AB anyway - Arcane ABs are about increasing their personal potential and power, not about providing it to others; an Epic-level character with Epic Leadership has a really nice cohort that might pose a threat to an Epic level enemy, but beyond that their followers don't do much in the way of assisting them in an Epic-level battle.
...and why do we need to connect the divine ABs, anyway? Other than their psionic enchantments, the Arcane ABs (their transformations, at least) aren't at all connected.
...clerics can migrate around, and would recieve their spells from really any Elemental AB in the area that is of the same patron -- and may not even need to get spells from an Elemental AB if within close enough range to a source or wellspring of his or her element (an elemental shrine, the Sea of Silt for silt clerics, etc.) Your idea of an aura might work a bit along these lines -- the mere presence of an Elemental AB in an area can help provide spells to clerics within range.
Now you're totally bypassing the "elemental conduits" through the Gray as a means of a cleric gathering their spell energy; they've always been able to cast regardless of whether or not they were near a "wellspring" of their element, and I can't imagine Elemental ABs being so prevalent that they can always "fill in the gaps" so as to keep clerics energized, so again this sounds like adding in too much "newness" to something that has already been pretty well defined. My idea is based on that idea, true, but it has nothing to do with the actual *granting* of spells. That's all I'm arguing against.
The SotL's for the druids, on the other hand, tend to be focused around specific locations, and would probably get more involved with each druid, grooming them and tending to them to develop the druid in a specific way. Druids tend to be, from hat I have seen, focused on a specific Spirit of the Land, rather than a more generalized source like the clerics would be. The specific relationship would result in the druids being far more aware as to what is giving them their spells than a cleric would be. However, in both cases, I can see where the Advanced Beings are used as extensions and conduits to let the divine energy be able to reach out to divine spellcasters.
This is how Athasian druids are already described, more or less, so I see no problems with it and think that it's a good "modification" that doesn't involve the creation of "new" material...just the slight modification/expansion of existing material. With the cleric, however, you're almost literally turning them into elemental vortices...a bad idea IMO. Which is a good point to bring up; the S-K's have a game and plot mechanic that allows them to bestow divine spellcasting upon their followers - the vortices - and the game setting went out of its way to kill off that avenue to divine power by making them extinct. You previously mentioned that you thought this idea was good because it was so similar to how the S-K's do it...but the original setting creators wanted that idea to be unique to the S-K's and S-K's alone.
In a sense, what the sorcerer-kings do is a bit closer to what I see for the druids/SotL's -- however it might actually require more conscious effort on the part of the sorcerer-king than it does to a SotL (even though the sorcerer-kings have done it for so long, that they are only mildly aware of it any more). The Elemental AB's would have the least conscious effort, if you could even think of it as a conscious effort on their part at all. The SotL's fall between what the sorcerer-kings do, and what the Elemental AB's do.
If an Elemental AB doesn't know that it's providing spells to clerics, and the clerics don't know that the AB is providing them with spells, then what's the point of including it at all? And if they do know that they're providing spells to their clerics, than as I've already asked, why don't we have clear-cut examples of this in DS literature? Why don't these Elemental ABs build up armies of clerical followers and wage outright war on the paraelements?
For the clerical AB, it's just "too much new stuff."
For the druidic AB, it's only a slight extension on what we already know about them, so is an interesting, plausible, and (IMO) great idea.
"The old hermit who lives out on the rock dune among all the earth drakes? I saw him once from far off, years ago.. strangest thing too, I swear those drakes were watching out for him.. in fact, when I was young my grandfather said that those drakes came to that area about the same time the old hermit did.. who knows, maybe they like him or something, all I know is, they aren't tame that's for sure... and anyone looking to cause trouble to that old hermit will soon find those drakes practically swarming to his rescue... even so.. I've never seen such beauty in all my years as that rock dune and all those earth drakes... neither has my father, nor his father for as long as we've all been followers of the earth..." - unknown earth cleric out near the rock dune..
kinda get my drift?? Think of it as an exceptional ability where creatures of the same patron element sort of "naturally" gravitate towards helping you.. they don't necessarily follow you around (though that might be cool for a SotL) but if in their area, they'll respect and help you, even possibly serve you..
Unless someone can find a specific reference to clerics having the capability of drawing their energy from a source that exists on Athas itself, I just can't see any amount of debate changing my opinion on this.
You're missing the point. You really are here. As I said before, I'd see the Elemental AB's as more or less being conduits between their patron plane and Athas -- sort of existing in both simultaneously, and able to shift their physical selves back and forth between them. I'm not saying that the clerics on Athas would be getting their spell power from a source that exists on Athas itself. I'm saying that the Elemental AB, as a conduit between the planes, would be the means the cleric can recieve this power, not the source of the power, just the medium the power is brought into Athas.
...but it does! You're changing how everyone would perceive elemental clerics and their role on Athas by adding new ideas rather than expounding on the existing ideas, so you are modifying the world. Saying that an Elemental AB is either the "real" source of elemental magic, or "another" source of it, is a modification to the game world, and IMO a pretty major one at that. Saying that they merely influence elemental spellcasting around them, as I'm proposing, is also a modification, sure...but all it requires is a game mechanic to put into place - very little explaination is needed for it ("their potent connection to the elemental plane extends around them as an emanation, increasing the spell potency of nearby clerics").
We've already seen how much debate has raged over the Energy Reserve (and related) aspects of the Avangion release; I can already imagine how much worse it'd be if this aspect was included in the Elemental AB build, and just don't see how it'd be worth it.
You see, if you still believe I am trying to force a radical change in how people percieve clerics, then you still are missing the point. I am thinking of ways to enhance the Elemental AB's -- because honestly, they are a bit under-developed in the materials. I am doing it by looking at the existing ideas -- the elemental conduits that exist, and seeing that as a possible thing that can be integrated into the Elemental AB's, by also looking at what we know of the SotL's. I do see similarities between the two divine AB's, and I think that could be something to look further into. The two are more or less "natural" AB's -- ones that do not have some massive epic spell chain advancing them through a process, but one that is a form of elevation to the character granted by their patron -- be it an elemental plane, or a Spirit of the Land. They both have a number of similarities, and I think we can use them together to possibly fillin the cracks where the two are not as well defined.
The 2e elemental AB, at least, had access to psionic enchantments, and IIRC so did the druid - so there's a connection between the two as well as one between them and the arcane AB's. And I don't really see how this ability would help bring them up to par with an Arcane AB anyway - Arcane ABs are about increasing their personal potential and power, not about providing it to others; an Epic-level character with Epic Leadership has a really nice cohort that might pose a threat to an Epic level enemy, but beyond that their followers don't do much in the way of assisting them in an Epic-level battle.
In 3.5e rules, we're trying to ensure that the Psionic Enchantments we have, are what ties Advanced Beings together. The spell line, the structure and design of the dragons and avangions tie the two of them together, some things can be used to tie the two divine ones together a bit as well. I'm not saying make them freaking mirrors of each other, just that there are some similarities between the two.
...and why do we need to connect the divine ABs, anyway? Other than their psionic enchantments, the Arcane ABs (their transformations, at least) aren't at all connected.
Yes, they are, in a number of ways -- the method which the process is initiated is similar, the kind of magic (divine) makes them a bit related, the fact it isn't a metamorphosis, but rather a kind of transformation is yet another. There are similarities that makes them stand out as divine AB's as opposed to the arcane AB's. Psionic Enchantments (as they were re-envisioned for 3.5e) tie all AB's together, the old 2e Psionic Enchantments (which are spells, really) have yet to be brought across, and will probably end up as special kinds of Epic Spells that also tie Advanced Beings together.
is[/i] based on that idea, true, but it has nothing to do with the actual *granting* of spells. That's all I'm arguing against.
I'm not bypassing the elemental conduits through the Gray as a means of a cleric gathering their spell energy. I'm just trying to tie it together with the Elemental AB's a bit.
This is how Athasian druids are already described, more or less, so I see no problems with it and think that it's a good "modification" that doesn't involve the creation of "new" material...just the slight modification/expansion of existing material. With the cleric, however, you're almost literally turning them into elemental vortices...a bad idea IMO. Which is a good point to bring up; the S-K's have a game and plot mechanic that allows them to bestow divine spellcasting upon their followers - the vortices - and the game setting went out of its way to kill off that avenue to divine power by making them extinct. You previously mentioned that you thought this idea was good because it was so similar to how the S-K's do it...but the original setting creators wanted that idea to be unique to the S-K's and S-K's alone.
Which was before there even were divine AB's in the setting at all.
If an Elemental AB doesn't know that it's providing spells to clerics, and the clerics don't know that the AB is providing them with spells, then what's the point of including it at all? And if they do know that they're providing spells to their clerics, than as I've already asked, why don't we have clear-cut examples of this in DS literature? Why don't these Elemental ABs build up armies of clerical followers and wage outright war on the paraelements?
For the clerical AB, it's just "too much new stuff."
For the druidic AB, it's only a slight extension on what we already know about them, so is an interesting, plausible, and (IMO) great idea.
I'm beginning to think you're attempting to straw-man my idea. What I see is that the Elemental AB would help and assist clerics in different ways -- either directly or indirectly. The Elemental AB would be aware that he or she is a conduit through which clerics recieve their power, but there would be no real concern as to which spells, or how. Just that they are serving a purpose. The Elemental AB could draw on that, to gather together clerics in a region to possibly help them, but considering the nature of Athasian clerics, they tend to be a bit individualistic. Some of the Elemental AB's could even have founded more organized religious movements, taking on the persona and roles of elemental deities to their "church", resulting in possibly some of the ideas of gods on Athas. Some of them would want to rather remain aloof of it all, with their concerns being on other things... but in the end, they serve the purpose of their element.
I dunno, maybe you just are looking for reasons to dislike the idea for Elemental AB's. There is plenty of examples of what could plausably fit for this concept in the Athasian mythos and setting. There is no direct statements that it does happen, but I don't see it as being an utterly world-changing effect.
It doesn't even need to be a "Leadership like" advantage... it could be a bonus applied to dealing with clerics of the same element/paraelement. They just get along better with those of their own element, and have some instinctive advantages towards swaying those clerics. The clerics themselves might pick up on the idea that these people are... different, and are important. Then again, they probably won't necessarily understand or know why.
So please, stop with the claims that I'm looking for exactly the same thing as with the druids. Stop with the grandstanding about me wanting to "totally change the world". I'm looking for a way to make the Elemental AB's fill a role in the world, possibly a way to explain how they are almost completely unheardof, and tying them together with the notions of the elemental conduits, as well as possibly the various "elemental deities" that are worshipped around the Tablelands.
I think people probably have interacted with and dealt with Elemental AB's without even realizing it. They would have no reason to go around and broadcast their presense, or reveal their powers, as such things could draw the attention of deadly enemies. They would be fighting for their element or paraelement, however that patron sways them to do so. They are clerics that have "ascended", and "transfirgured" from mere mortals into something that is beyond all of that, and yet at the same time, can interact throughout Athas.
kinda get my drift?? Think of it as an exceptional ability where creatures of the same patron element sort of "naturally" gravitate towards helping you.. they don't necessarily follow you around (though that might be cool for a SotL) but if in their area, they'll respect and help you, even possibly serve you..
Along the same lines as Xlorep's "Leadership" idea, I think, but with a twist. Or 'Uber animal companion.'
Either way, nifty idea.
hearing the word "elemental aura" (ok, it's a phrase, or leastways, two words) gave me the idea of something.. I'm sure there's a game mechanic somewhere for how lesser elementals would behave towards an elemental AB.. as well as how a cleric of that element would react to one... animal style elementals would always behave in a positive and maybe even helpful manner to such an AB.. and an AB have a huge charisma bonus towards a cleric of the same patron.. maybe skill bonuses to influence said cleric as well.. maybe not.. that's another "aura" type thing that doesn't need to be seen (no glowy light) but that can still be noticed... even if they take humanoid form...
"The old hermit who lives out on the rock dune among all the earth drakes? I saw him once from far off, years ago.. strangest thing too, I swear those drakes were watching out for him.. in fact, when I was young my grandfather said that those drakes came to that area about the same time the old hermit did.. who knows, maybe they like him or something, all I know is, they aren't tame that's for sure... and anyone looking to cause trouble to that old hermit will soon find those drakes practically swarming to his rescue... even so.. I've never seen such beauty in all my years as that rock dune and all those earth drakes... neither has my father, nor his father for as long as we've all been followers of the earth..." - unknown earth cleric out near the rock dune..
kinda get my drift?? Think of it as an exceptional ability where creatures of the same patron element sort of "naturally" gravitate towards helping you.. they don't necessarily follow you around (though that might be cool for a SotL) but if in their area, they'll respect and help you, even possibly serve you..
I like that idea, I think that is kind of what I'm getting at, to include clerics of the same element as well.
Honestly, much of what Dirk has said has had an impact on my view, and I'm being rather flexible, adjusting things as we go along. Maybe this aura idea is better for Elemental AB's, rather than the "granting spell power" to clerics, which would be, I guess, a bit more limited in scope.
My true concern is not with having to include, or chosing not to include, game mechanics for this; it's not a case of disagreeing that, to make them more interesting and 'potent', we need to expand on the minimal 2e information we have regarding these beings - it's simply the idea that somehow divine spell energy can come "through" an Elemental AB. I do, actually, understand what you're saying - at least, if that quoted sentence is a good representation of your overall argument.
In an attempt to give an equally succinct reasoning for my disagreement, try this: I don't like the idea that an Elemental AB is in some way a conduit of 'divine' energy from the elemental planes to elemental clerics on Athas, in a way that allows them to cast their spells, as that idea is an unnecessary modification/addendum to the established concept that 'Athasian clerics are able to cast spells and turn undead by drawing divine energy through elemental conduits that connect Athas to the Inner Spheres, as described in Dragon Kings(?), Defilers and Preservers, EAF&W, and (I think) elsewhere.
...and that's it. I like the idea of their connection to the elemental planes somehow "boosting" the capabilities of clerics nearby. Although I don't necessarily like it, I don't dislike the idea of giving them a "leadership"-like ability that results in clerics naturally gathering around them. And as a whole I do think that this works as a firm, base-line concept from which to come up with the overall abilities of an Elemental AB.
I don't know how else to explain it...I do understand what you're saying, and yes, it is a feasible idea and could be incorporated into the Elemental AB EPrC. I'm simply stating my opinion (and doing my best to justify that opinion sensically) that I don't think anything about the Elemental AB should say something along the lines of "clerics are able to gain their divine spells *through* the 'body' of an Elemental AB", either as fluff or as some sort of actual class ability.
Can we use one of my least favorite phrases now - "let's agree to disagree" - ...?
Xlorep - truly, the *only* part of your entire idea that I have a problem with is summed up in this single sentence you most recently posted: "I'm saying that the Elemental AB, as a conduit between the planes, would be the means the cleric can recieve this power, not the source of the power, just the medium the power is brought into Athas." That's it.
My true concern is not with having to include, or chosing not to include, game mechanics for this; it's not a case of disagreeing that, to make them more interesting and 'potent', we need to expand on the minimal 2e information we have regarding these beings - it's simply the idea that somehow divine spell energy can come "through" an Elemental AB. I do, actually, understand what you're saying - at least, if that quoted sentence is a good representation of your overall argument.
And I can understand your problem with it. As you can see in my later posts, I've attempted to explain myself a bit more thoroughly on it, and have actually argued my way out of that completely, just before Lyric posted his thoughts on it, which I agreed with him, just as you did. I thought that meant we were on the same page now, but maybe you didn't think so? A bonus like what Lyric was suggesting, was the direction I was heading in my post just before his, and I like his idea on it. I even had said, in the post just before his, that maybe we could just get rid of the notion I was originally working with of them being conduits completely. You even sauid that Lyric's idea was a "neat idea".
:whatsthis 
Seriously though, has anyone considered what would happen in the case of an Elemental AB who had the Leadership/EpicLeadership/Legendary Commander feats? Or who has a few levels of Thrallherd?? cleric types are by nature about worship and following a patron or philosophy... with the above feats or PrC they would already have those who revered them.. (is that too strong a word?) I guess what I'm asking is, should there be a mechanic made for characters who have those feats to enhance them towards their patron element and it's followers? should something be made to grant a variant of those feats for those who don't have them to again, just enhance their place in that society? and what of the option of the thrallherd? could that be tailored as well?
And I can understand your problem with it. As you can see in my later posts, I've attempted to explain myself a bit more thoroughly on it, and have actually argued my way out of that completely, just before Lyric posted his thoughts on it, which I agreed with him, just as you did. I thought that meant we were on the same page now, but maybe you didn't think so? A bonus like what Lyric was suggesting, was the direction I was heading in my post just before his, and I like his idea on it. I even had said, in the post just before his, that maybe we could just get rid of the notion I was originally working with of them being conduits completely. You even sauid that Lyric's idea was a "neat idea".
Hehe no we're on the same page now, I was just lagging one post behind you (a couple posts back I was apparently posting at the same time you were, and it threw me off). Just was catching up is all.