but as this is the message board most frequently visited by me,
then that is my reason for posting it here.
u might know it from SG1 (it is egypthain flavored, and i like egypthian settings as well as Dark Sun), so here goes:
Goua' Uld,
+2 racial adjustment?
Racial stats:
+4 str, as they are physically much stronger when dominating a host.
-2 dex, as i think it takes some effort to command a body not fully your own(besides the balance i need)
Racial skills:
+2 Know, history, arcana and religion
Racial feat:
Education
(as they posses the knowledge of all the former hosts as well as the Goua' Uld itself.)
Dark Vision, 30'
Natural Psionics, 3 psp's
Power resistance, 5 +lvl
Purity of body, Immune to none-magical disease's (as per monk ab.)
Wholeness of body, heal a max of up to 2 hp per day (as per monk ab.)
Meditation, the host needs only 6 hours of rest/ sleep to recover fully
Breathe water, when fully emersed, when the character starts drowning, the symbiot takes over, the body goes unconsious, but the symbiout does provide the body with enough air out of the water to sustain the body and not let it die)
Symbiot form:
Swim speed, 50'
Breathe water, as air
i will Edit as when i get responce and feedback or when ideas pop up in my defunct brain
Though it would be easy enough to make one more powerful and give it class levels of psion to represent the Goua' Uld knowledge. (btw a ability more like the bardic knowledge ability would fit more for a Goua' Uld than what you have listed)
and concerning the bardic knowledge, that is based on social worldly interaction, not personal research and development of personality over the ages of exsistence...
random rolls do not reflect in my view this personalized research in any way.
i do thank u for your replies, but u did not give me the answer i need,
i am asking if these abilities are in consistence with the +2 level adjustment.
I agree that the puppeteer doesn't have everything you need to get across the idea of Stargate's symbiotic system lords, but it's the closest analogy in the existing rules, so if you're serious about your "balance" question, that's where you should start.
Another analogy isn't even a monster or race, but the true mind switch power. Game wise that's part of what's happening here: a synthesis of the host's physical stats with the symbiote's mental stats. I am NOT saying make them a Mind Switch; I'm saying look to the mind switch description to help fashion balanced rules.
Now if you're interested in the To'kra angle, where the host essentially timeshares the body with the symbiote, so that the composite creature switches between State 1 (Go'auld symbiote mental stats imposed on host physical stats + symbiotic physical benefits) and State 2 (Host physical and host mental stats + symbiotic physical benefits + knowledge and memory of the symbiote), then, my friend, you are out in the cold as far as 3.5 precedent is concerned, and you'll have to make your own way and put a play-test team together to figure out what's "balanced." You can't guess-work something that's radically different than anything currently in the rule.
I'd be interested in the findings of such a play-test team, if you could put it together, because once there was a scale for balancing anything like that, it would open the door to create a slew of other strange and marvelous critters. But I suspect that figuring out a way to balance what you describe would take a team of play-testers on the scale of the manhattan project.
I'm a storyteller rather than a mechanic, and I agree with you that the flavor of the Go'auld very strongly resembles a lot of stuff going on in Dark Sun, but I think it would be a serious mistake to just add Go'auld to Athas without making other changes.
It's not that the Go'auld don't fit; the problem is that they fit too well into a space that's already occupied by Athas' sorceror-kings. I have often thought, if I had time to start a new Dark Sun Campaign, I would surprise the hell out of the experienced DS players and make the SKs go'auld rather than Dragons. Give the templars a larval symbiote rather a mere signet, in order to get their templar spells.
That's how I see it. Just adding the Go'auld in to Athas as it is would be redundant, like putting sugar on frosted flakes, or chocolate-coated chocolate.
Like Ra said to Daniel Jackson, "there can only be one Ra!"
"Personality" is not a skill or an ability. Personality is control of the character. You don't "get" its personality: It takes your body as its own. And as for ages of existence, like Seker said, that's something you'd add in through experience levels, not through some sort of racial bonus. Some Go'auld may be old, but some are just born. Older ones will have character levels that they can take, regardless of the host they are in, just like a mind switch. Younger ones will only have the base race stuff.
Yes, Go'auld are supposed to have some ancestral memory as well, but then so are Thri-kreen, and we don't make a 3e mechanic for that.
not to get an answer that i have to buy some book wich is i think out of print and hard to get...
thanks anyway
I'm not a rules mechanic, but even I can tell you that +2 is absolutely NOT right for this "race," and it's not about the stat adjustments. The ability to TAKE A HOST, i.e. to possess a creature against its will is equivalent to a level 5 spell or power. That's not a racial ability you hand out to a +2 ECL creature in 3.5.
What level adjustment would be appropriate, I can't say, because what you've got is not a race in the first place. but a mix between a race and a template, and something else that has no real precedent in 3.5 as far as I know. And if I'm wrong, show me; I'd be delighted to be wrong on this.
thank u for the reference to the puppeteer, but this entry in no way does good to what a Goua' Uld should be.
and concerning the bardic knowledge, that is based on social worldly interaction, not personal research and development of personality over the ages of exsistence...
random rolls do not reflect in my view this personalized research in any way.
i do thank u for your replies, but u did not give me the answer i need,
i am asking if these abilities are in consistence with the +2 level adjustment.
the problem is what you have described above does not do the Goua' Uld justice either, nor does it match the existing rules for parasitic/symbiotic relationship of them and their host.... and there are rules for something similiar in D&D... specifically in Eberron.. the Inspired (blend a humanoid host and a Tsucora Quori) though in that case it is a more spiritual possession, illithids, and the above mentioned puppetteers.
to do them propperly you would need to do the stats for 2 creatures... the host (which I would limit to humanoids and monstrous humanoids if it were me.... similiar to the limitations a mindflayer deals with)
on the bardic knowledge.... there is an almost identical ability that dragons get from a feat called draconic knowledge which fits more like what you are talking about though it is more specific to things dragon like and what the actual dragon would have experienced.....
so make an ability called Goua' Uld knowledge and give it the effect of working on anything based on the genetic memory of the Goua' Uld... ie magic, psionics and technology of the Goua' Uld or the stuff they stole.
on doing them as a race, if would be more like something like this.
Goua' Uld
Fine Aberration (psionic)
Hit Dice: 3d8 (14 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 20, swim 40
Armor Class: 18 (+8 size)
Base Attack/Grapple: +6
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d4-4 damage minimum of 1 damage)
Space/reach: 1/2 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: Burrowing possesion, psi-like abilities, psionic powers
Special Qualities: naturally psionic, blindsight 60 ft, fast healing 3, immune to posion/disease, Goua' Uld knowledge
(when possessing host gains dual spirit)
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +5, Will +4
Abilities: Str 2, Dex 18, Con 8, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 14
Skills: Bluff +4, Concentration +3, Knowledge (psionics) +3, psicraft +5, use magic device +6, use psionic device +8
Feats: Psionic affinity, psionic body
Enviroment: either per possesed creature, or underwater
Organization: solitary, or group
CR: 2
Treasure: none unless possessed
Alignment: Usually Lawfull Evil
Advancement: 4-20 HD (fine)
Level Adjustment: - (per possessed creature + Goua' Uld Hit dice)
Burrowing Possession: (Ex) if a Goua' Uld is able to make a successful bite attack on the neck or mouth of a target it may start burrowing in to start taking possession of its new host as long as the creature is a humanoid or monstrous humanoid. The Goua' Uld must first psionically charm the host, but if successful the host is treated as dominated for as long as the Goua' Uld remains within it.
Psi-like abilities: 3/day- detect psionics, mental barrier, psionic charm (DC 13). Manifester level equal to the Goua' Uld's manifester level. The save DC's are Charisma based.
Psionics: Goua' Uld is treated as a psion (telepath) of level equal to its racial HD for powers known, power points, and manifesting.
Blindsight: (Ex) Goua' Uld can assertain creatures by nonvisual means within 60 feet.
Naturally Psionic: Goua' Uld have 3 additional power points
Goua' Uld Knowledge: (Ex) Goua' Uld treat all knowledge skills as trained, and gain checks as per the bardic knowledge ability, save that their DC's are controlled by how related the subject is the the Goua' Uld.
Dual Spirit: (Ex) when inhabitting a host body the host gains the following abilities in addition to being eligible for host feats:
--ability scores: uses the Goua' Uld mental ability scores (if higher than the hosts), but the hosts physical.
--combined skill ranks: combines the skill ranks of both the host and the Goua' Uld
--Dual Mind: may reroll any failed save against a mind-effecting spell or ability. If the rerolled save also fails, the Goua' Uld and host suffer the effects of the ability.
--enhanced abilities: +4 enhancement bonus on Str and Con
--Goua' Uld abilities: the host is able to use all the Goua' Uld psi-like abilities Goua' Uld knowledge, and psionic powers, as well as gaining its fast healing 3 and immune to posion and disease.
--reduced sleep: a Goua' Uld only requires 4 hours of sleep per day.
From reading this discussion, I wonder if a template is a better option - at least for the symbiot relationship? Apply the template to the creature that becomes the host.
problem with a template is that the creature can choose to leave at any time, and having a mobile template is not standard in the systems.... however the effects of possession are in various forms.
in Eberron they have the inspired which is a combined race. Very similiar to what they are like in the show. And that is where I got alot of the rules.
in the case of the puppetteers it is just considered a dominated host... but puppetteers are actually more like the sluglike "masters" in many a sci fi novel, in that they are external controllers.
actual possession, ala the fiends, would also work and would be easy to do.... but the Goua' Uld give set bonuses to the host for the most part.
The reason I did up the Goua' Uld the way i gave is that it gives a way to represent the sheer level of power/knowledge difference between a just mature Goua' Uld (3HD) and one that has been around for centuries. And the main increase in power comes from the psionics they gain (which acts as a good replacement for their technologies) though perhaps treating them as wilders or psychic warriors power wise would work better than psion.
much appreciated,
but it is still not what i think is correct for the Goua'Uld, and specially not if u also have to do the exact same for a To'Kra...(and the Jafar that is)
i am building up something myself and when i have it in "finished" form i will post it here
:evillaughThanks Seker for your input,
much appreciated,
but it is still not what i think is correct for the Goua'Uld, and specially not if u also have to do the exact same for a To'Kra...(and the Jafar that is)
i am building up something myself and when i have it in "finished" form i will post it here
actually what I wrote up works just as well for the To'Kra as the Goua'Uld, as the To'Kra are just a subspecies. All that you would have to put in the above write up is a subspecies section that specifies that the To'Kra can willingly let the host communicate and control the body at will.
And the Jafar WOULD require a species entry no matter what as they are not truly humans.... at the very least they would require a template that gives them the bonuses when they are converted into a Jafar. And the template would also apply to those that were born as one.
I was just trying to give you an accurate portrayal of them that would fit the rules for D&D (in d20 modern/future they would be quite a bit different.)
You have to realize, I have the DVD sets of all the seasons released so far. (have to admit I love the show, I love egyptology [and to a lesser extent all other mythos] and sci fi so this made an awsome series for me.)
the issue is that considering that they are a seperate race that can combine with another race/take them over, you would need to do them up as a seperate race.
Although on second look at the race I wrote up I would reccomend switching the psionics over to either psychic warrior or wilder instead of psion.
I was also having the same thoughts as u had in using the quori and Githyanki/ Githzerai as a basis, even though i think u made a good basis for the race in the make up u did, i still did not agree with some of the abilities and ways of implementation.
here is my go at it (using your template as the basis, as i was comming up with similar thoughts, great minds....yadayada):
Goua' Uld, To'Kra and Jafar
Fine Aberration (psionic)
Hit Dice: 3d8-3+4(13 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 20, swim 40
Armor Class: 18 (+8 size)
Base Attack/Grapple: +6
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d4-4 damage minimum of 1 damage)
Space/reach: 1/2 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: Burrowing possesion, psi-like abilities, psionic powers
Special Qualities: naturally psionic, immune to non magical disease, Goua' Uld knowledge
(when possessing host gains dual spirit, only the To'Kra have this ability)
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +5, Will +4
Abilities: Str 2, Dex 18, Con 8, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 14
Skills: Bluff +4, Concentration +3, Knowledge (magic) +3, Knowledge (psionics) +3, psicraft +5, use magic device +4, use psionic device +8
Feats: Psionic affinity, psionic body, Iron Will (Goua'Uld and Jafar only)
Enviroment: either per possesed creature, or underwater
Organization: solitary, or group
CR: 2
Treasure: none unless possessed
Alignment: Usually Lawfull Evil (Ghoua'Uld), any Lawfull (Jafar) and Usually Lawfull Good (To'Kra)
Advancement: 4-20 HD (fine)
Level Adjustment: - (per possessed creature + Goua' Uld Hit dice)
Burrowing Possession: (Ex) if a Goua' Uld is able to make a successful bite attack on the neck or mouth of a target it may start burrowing in to start taking possession of its new host as long as the creature is a humanoid or monstrous humanoid. The Goua' Uld must first psionically charm the host, but if successful the host is treated as dominated for as long as the Goua' Uld remains within it.
(Goua'Uld only, as the To'Kra host must be willing, and the Jafar insert the symbiot manually into some part of the stomach)
Psi-like abilities: Body Adjustment, Body Purification, detect psionics, psionic charm (Ghoua'Uld only) (DC 13), . Manifester level equal to the Goua' Uld's manifester level. The save DC's are Charisma based.
Psionics: Goua' Uld is treated as a psion (telepath) of level equal to its racial HD for powers known, power points, and manifesting.
Naturally Psionic: Goua' Uld have 3 additional power points.
Goua' Uld Knowledge: (Ex) Goua' Uld treat all knowledge skills as trained, and gain checks as per the bardic knowledge ability, save that their DC's are controlled by how related the subject is the the Goua' Uld.
Dual Spirit: (Ex) when inhabitting a host body the host gains the following abilities in addition to being eligible for host feats:
--ability scores: uses the Goua' Uld mental ability scores (if higher than the hosts), but the hosts physical.(except when the To'Kra takes over, otherwise, the original stats of the host have effect, and with the Jafar, the host keeps all his own stats)
--combined skill ranks: combines the skill ranks of both the host and the Goua' Uld (except when making a player character, then the player gets to decide wich will be his first level (this can be 1 hd of the Goua'Uld, but he gets the x4 skillpoints only once))
--Dual Mind: may reroll any failed save against a mind-effecting spell or ability. If the rerolled save also fails, the Goua' Uld and host suffer the effects of the ability.
(To'Kra only)
--enhanced abilities: Goua'Uld: +4 enhancement bonus on Str , To'Kra and Jafar: +2 str, Jafar only: +4 con
--the Symbiot breaths water and air equally well, if in a host, it gives the following ability:when the host can no longer hold its breath and start "drowning", the Symbiot takes over, the host goes unconsious and the symbiot provides air from the water as long as the host resides underwater, the host regains his consiousness 24 hours minus his constitution in hours after exiting the water.
--Goua' Uld abilities: the host is able to use all the Goua' Uld psi-like abilities Goua' Uld knowledge, and psionic powers, and immune to nonmagical disease.(except where noted otherwise)
--reduced sleep: a Goua' Uld only requires 6 hours of sleep (meditation)per day.
--Favorite Class: in addition to the hosts fav.class, the Goua'Uld: any 1, Jafar: Psychic Warrior, To'Kra: Psion
--and because the Jafar implant the symbiot into the stomach and not in the "regular" way, there is no mind link and no "advanced" Jafar, only the basic symbiot in the Jafar and the Jafar's class levels.
--Racial +2 modifier on Intimidate checks
per example, one of the "ex templars is not in agreeance with the way Tectuktitlay's predesessor Atzetuk took power with the help of the psions and powerless templars, and wants another real power on the throne...
after searching his ass of in all the table lands, he come's across a ruin with an asteroid impact site, only what was the actual "asteroid" was a mothership crashing, and it exploded after impact, however, unknown to the templar some jafar managed to take the body of the heavily damaged "..insert name of Goua'Uld..." into a sarcophagus and get him out before the actual explosion.
the jafar die due to local wild life and the sarcophagus stay's secretly there for some time , untill the templar finds it, he then detects great psionic power radiating from the sarcophagus, and decides to take it with him to his city, he studies the sarcophagus, and finds out what it is and contains, gets a plot underway to get the (being a powerfull templar anyway, and having access to the chamber's of Atzetuk... and making him see what situation he is in and how he can better his position (in working with the Goua'Uld).
and the reason for the ship exploding is ofcourse the To'Kra's bidding, and some of them survived and are now plotting against him and they r thinking of joining the Veiled alliance to do so.
Thematically, it's a mistake, like I said above. Good luck with it, but I think you'll find they don't click for reasons explained above. They are redundant.
nothing more, no redundancy there, as there are more such races and mindsets.. even within Athas/ Dark Sun.
makes it even more interesting to make such a character having to find out he is not the biggest fish in the pond and is not the "God" of the planet/ system.
and if u read my initial post, i did not intend to stick them in Athas perse, just this seemed by style (and frequency of my visits) my best choice of message board.
First if you are bringing them in directly as they were in the show.... then the stats need to be adjusted... pretty much remove most psionics as they used technology. And we are not even going to go into the fact that Athas is a closed crystal sphere so is not even linked to the rest of the universe aspect so there is no place for them to have come from. I was working from the idea that they were an abomination from the world itself that just happened to be "identical" to the ones from the show.
And frankly they would get their snakey butts handed to them on Athas. Masters of the way would notice them pretty much instantly.... and they would have NO chance vs a SK, member of the Order, or frankly any normal high level character. Face it they were being killed off by normal humans in the show and the average human on dark sun is more powerful than the Jafar of the show. (remember the humans of darksun per prior editions, compared to humans of other worlds were 2 levels higher and could have stats that were well beyond normal characters.) They would make an interesting green age species that is dangerous in isolated areas... but frankly, they are out of their league on Athas.
TheBrax, Kurn, 1 attempt with transparent looks towards the Egypthians?, so what, that does not constitute the whole setting of Dark Sun,
i myself see it more as a combination of Mad Max in fantasy, with all kinds of settings brought into it, like Mayan's, Aztec's and the like...
so no strikt setting of no egypthians allowed because they are already in it.
and again i have to stress:
And if u read my initial post, i did not intend to stick them in Athas perse, just this seemed by style (and frequency of my visits) my best choice of message board.(copied from my own former post)
OTOH, if they actually were SKs, in some Alternate DS where the templars were all Jaffa, etc., I think you'd see some intereresting synergy. All the levels would be in the symbiote itself, if the Symbiote maintained control, right?
no they would not, as the jaffa have no (rules invented-wise) "advanced versions", they do not have the same psychological connection to the symbiot that the To'Kra and the Goua'Uld have, they just manually insert the symbiot into the lower abdomen (perhaps to keep the jaffar from growing as powerfull (at least racial wise) as the ruling lord/ ladies).
The Jaffar never in the series (i have seen up till now(via the SF channel)) have shown any "personality" other then that of the host itself, and never did they have "glowing eyes (to me an indication of the symbiot taking over/ and or getting angry
)Seker, that constitutes your oppinion, not mine, and it is a Fantasy setting where anything can happen, besides, even the orignal creators allowed interlopers now and then, (Githyanki invasion, Mindflayers, a.o.)...
TheBrax, Kurn, 1 attempt with transparent looks towards the Egypthians?, so what, that does not constitute the whole setting of Dark Sun,
i myself see it more as a combination of Mad Max in fantasy, with all kinds of settings brought into it, like Mayan's, Aztec's and the like...
so no strikt setting of no egypthians allowed because they are already in it.
and again i have to stress:
And if u read my initial post, i did not intend to stick them in Athas perse, just this seemed by style (and frequency of my visits) my best choice of message board.(copied from my own former post)
Actually in every single case of invasions happening it was from standard parts of the D&D cosmology.... and ONLY through the planes... NOT through space.... Athas has always been a sealed crystal sphere.
And I was replying to your "asteroid crashing in the tablelands" bit.... and sorry but they would get their butts handed to them. Dark Sun is a tougher world than any other campaign world, barring possibly planescape. And in Stargate SG1, normal humans were taking them out left and right with inferior technology.... think of what any defiler or worse yet dragon king would do to such a creature with NO knowledge of actual magic. And even in my write up of them (which was more powerful psionicly speaking) they would still not be able to take over anywhere significant without running afoul of one of the main players of Athas,
Frankly if you are wanting to write them up, you need to use the D20 modern or d20 future setting. Both would allow for a much better character for what you are looking for. As they have more accurate systems for this kind of thing.
"think of what any defiler or worse yet dragon king would do to such a creature with NO knowledge of actual magic. And even in my write up of them (which was more powerful psionicly speaking) they would still not be able to take over anywhere significant without running afoul of one of the main players of Athas"
end quote.
i disagree, magic is not an ingredient only needed to have power, and besides, then the order would have been kicked off the map long ago...
and is running afoul of some big players not part of the game?, really would be boring if u would never go toe to toe with some bigger players, direct or indirectly..
see my former post on a posibilitie how to introduce and get into power.
besides there can be a big rationale onsome other continent where they actually are in power, not some other player created crossover setting where hobgoblins and gnolls worshipping demons, besides them supposedly having to be extinct in the original setting (no insult intended towards the creativity of such ppl, but at least this is still in flavor with Dark Sun)
quote:
"think of what any defiler or worse yet dragon king would do to such a creature with NO knowledge of actual magic. And even in my write up of them (which was more powerful psionicly speaking) they would still not be able to take over anywhere significant without running afoul of one of the main players of Athas"
end quote.
i disagree, magic is not an ingredient only needed to have power, and besides, then the order would have been kicked off the map long ago...
and is running afoul of some big players not part of the game?, really would be boring if u would never go toe to toe with some bigger players, direct or indirectly..
see my former post on a posibilitie how to introduce and get into power.
besides there can be a big rationale onsome other continent where they actually are in power, not some other player created crossover setting where hobgoblins and gnolls worshipping demons, besides them supposedly having to be extinct in the original setting (no insult intended towards the creativity of such ppl, but at least this is still in flavor with Dark Sun)
First off... a Sorcerer King is epic level as both a defiler AND a manifester. (and to be honest I think we need to up the actual manifesting ability of the dragons as it is, to a similiar but lower level than what we are planning for avangion.... but I am going by just the rules we have now.) You are looking at characters in the 20+ range minimum on both caster level and manifester level. They are well beyond the power of most other characters can possibly reach, not even mentioning their bonuses from being Champions.
Even in the Dragon Kings book it mentions the fact that the Order are not at odds with the Sorcerer Kings in ANY way. Just looking at it logically, think of this. The Order does not allow its members to extend their lifespan beyond their normal range.... so they have no hope of every reaching the levels of psionics that a Sorcerer King could have. So really even in a straight psionic battle, a Sorcerer King would likely win.... and no Monarch would be dumb enough to fight fair and not use their most powerful ability, magic.
The Order exists without problems because they do not start wars with the SK's not the other way around.
And as to your "a posibilitie how to introduce and get into power" as I said before, Athas is a CLOSED crystal sphere, their is NO link to other worlds physically. It is sealed off so that it is very difficult to even reach the world through the planes, but other travel does not exist. So have a mothership crash on the world does not fit the world as it is written. If you want to make a homebrew world like darksun that is not cut off that is your option. But as the world is written this would not work.... I was writing them up as a race native to Athas which is the primary method that would work if you really want them in darksun.
As to their ability vs a SK or any of the other movers and shakers in darksun..... by your version of the creatures.... even at the most advanced stage (20HD) they are still only equal to a 10th level psion in power. And even if they had all of the abilities of the person they took over (including class levels) and they were able to take over a level 20 wizard..... they would be equal to a level 40 character in ECL. And they would still be so much meat against a SK. And the likelyhood of them possessing a epic level host, even at max HD, is a virtual impossiblity.
tada..
If these symbiotes have been on Athas for long, they could have kept their hosts alive perpetually, or gone host to host, thus reaching epic levels.
Speaking of which, I wonder how the Order stops powerful psionicists from using True Mind Switch to achieve immortality.
Actually, Seker, wouldn't it depend on the timeframe?
If these symbiotes have been on Athas for long, they could have kept their hosts alive perpetually, or gone host to host, thus reaching epic levels.
Speaking of which, I wonder how the Order stops powerful psionicists from using True Mind Switch to achieve immortality.
It might be possible that one would reach epic level by taking class levels, or be a DM exception to allow it to go beyond 20 HD in the racial class. But even then you are looking at a creature that only gains half the HD as manifesting levels. Compaired to a creature that has advanced in both defiling magic and psionics simultainiously. So unless you are talking about one that has been around since near the beginning of the Green Age, there is little to no chance of it having gained levels of power psionically and other power wise near a SK.
After all a Dragon, if it started as a wizard 7/psion 7/cererbramancer 10 (which gives it 9th level powers and spells), could have a manifesting and caster level equal to a straight wizard and manifester equal to a straight psion of the same level (all they need is practiced manifester and practiced spellcaster.) Which means by its very nature is going to have more power than one of these things.
And if you had an epic level one of these roaming around since the Green Age, it would have been noticed at the very least by the Order, who would likely see it as a threat to them, or by a SK who would see it as competition.
But seriously, unless you are talking one like Anubis (who was not even a normal one of the Goua' Uld but rather some half divine one) the normal Goua' Uld were mid level villians at best for characters when they actually fought them.... they fought through minions mainly.
That is a good question on mind switch.... I will bring it up to the bureau when we work on the Order.
oh and on there being more dwarves in the order, I actually remember something in 2nd edition that actually mentioned that and also mentioned that there were very very few thri-kreen in it for the same reason.
because they can simply boost theyre power with character levels..
and anyway, they also can become mages...
And if you had an epic level one of these roaming around since the Green Age, it would have been noticed at the very least by the Order, who would likely see it as a threat to them, or by a SK who would see it as competition.
then explain me why the cities abouve the Tablelands (above kurn, Mind Lords), were not known even by big ones like the sorcerer kings?.
hmmz, i do think their power should be upgraded, say to 2/3 rd of hitdice to be manifester level, but not 1 on 1.
because they can simply boost theyre power with character levels..
and anyway, they also can become mages...
then explain me why the cities abouve the Tablelands (above kurn, Mind Lords), were not known even by big ones like the sorcerer kings?.
Even upgraded they would still not be able to stand toe to toe with the real powers in Athas. And to be honest unless you are wanting to change the entire history/fluff.... (on both Stargate and on Dark Sun) they would have no reason to be.
Um the City of the Mind Lords IS known to the SK's..... heck one of the Champions (Keltis aka Oronis) visited it during the cleansing war no less. And the ones running that city are a heck of alot tougher than even most members of the Order in psionics.... and they are pretty much insane. So the Goua' Uld would be at an even more disadvantage there..... cause the mindlords and their followers would find them even quicker.
Remember just because the SK's don't tell their city about a society out there that has all this water, does not mean they do not know about them. Now the Jagged cliffs are for the most part unknown to the SK's. (and I seriously doubt Rajaat would have shared the secret of that particular place with anyone...) But the Goua' Uld woudl be at even greater of a disadvantage there..... as the Rhulisti know all about symbiots and parasites. In fact if you really want Goua' Uld in Dark Sun it would be easiest to make them left over weapon of the Blue Age.... but you would definately want to limit their psionic ability if you do this.
But again Goua' Uld really fit more in d20 modern or d20 future rather than D&D.
Even upgraded they would still not be able to stand toe to toe with the real powers in Athas. And to be honest unless you are wanting to change the entire history/fluff.... (on both Stargate and on Dark Sun) they would have no reason to be.
Um the City of the Mind Lords IS known to the SK's..... heck one of the Champions (Keltis aka Oronis) visited it during the cleansing war no less. And the ones running that city are a heck of alot tougher than even most members of the Order in psionics.... and they are pretty much insane. So the Goua' Uld would be at an even more disadvantage there..... cause the mindlords and their followers would find them even quicker.
Remember just because the SK's don't tell their city about a society out there that has all this water, does not mean they do not know about them. Now the Jagged cliffs are for the most part unknown to the SK's. (and I seriously doubt Rajaat would have shared the secret of that particular place with anyone...) But the Goua' Uld woudl be at even greater of a disadvantage there..... as the Rhulisti know all about symbiots and parasites. In fact if you really want Goua' Uld in Dark Sun it would be easiest to make them left over weapon of the Blue Age.... but you would definately want to limit their psionic ability if you do this.
power does not mean u have to use it to go toe to toe with SK's. i think u have a misconception of what i mean, as i never said they had to be able to kill a SK 1 on 1.
"but you would definately want to limit their psionic ability if you do this".
Why?, even in the blue age (i think) there was psionics available, so why should they be held back in this regard?
anyway, i edited the race again on some minor things..(psionic strenght and bonus on intimidate)
i will make a write up for them to have them excist as a natural Dark Sun "race".
power does not mean u have to use it to go toe to toe with SK's. i think u have a misconception of what i mean, as i never said they had to be able to kill a SK 1 on 1.
"but you would definately want to limit their psionic ability if you do this".
Why?, even in the blue age (i think) there was psionics available, so why should they be held back in this regard?
anyway, i edited the race again on some minor things..(psionic strenght and bonus on intimidate)
i will make a write up for them to have them excist as a natural Dark Sun "race".
The point is the Sk's would destroy any of these that became a threat.... and having them take over one of the cities that lost their king..... would be a threat in the eyes of a SK.
Actually psionics comes from the green age. The Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs, goes into this in detail. As does many other books.... Psionics was the power that showed up right after the rebirth, and became the main power of the Green Age, up untill Rajaat discovered sorcery while studying the old information about the Rhulisti and lifeshaping.
Oh and in psionics for a creature it is normally either 1/2 HD or equal to HD, not 2/3rd.... or it will say that a creature has is treated as having x levels as a psion for manifesting purposes. (which normally does not increase as they gain HD through advancement in this last case.)
If you are writing them up as a natural dark sun race, the options I would reccomend are as follows:
-- lifeshaped creation of the nature benders that has been till recently in hibernation
-- an abomination that "naturally" evolved from the swamp below the jagged cliffs that were twisted by Rajaats meddling... as that area is very very close to how their homeworld was portrayed. You could even make a race like the "First Ones" for the swamp and it would be really nasty.
-- an experiment of either the Order or a SK
-- a creation by a powerful psion to make himself immortal, by using a modified version of the mind seed ability. (possibly even combining this one with them being an abomination from the swamp below the jagged cliffs)
I have no problems with making one of these into a "natural" creature of Athas... just bringing in the actual Gu'ould of stargate technology, startships, and being used to being treated as gods and all set me on edge and got me really defensive.
Bringing the ones in that are used to having humans as slaves to them being gods, would put them directly at odds with the SK's.... and that would end up getting the symbiot hunted and slaughtered.... however making them a creature of Athas, is cool with me and is what I had been working from for you.
and curiosity wise, where u get the info: Aberration (psionic) from, cant find it in the complete psionics book
how did u btw calculate the base attack of +6?, if u used the dex to calculate is, where is the weapon finesse feat?....
and curiosity wise, where u get the info: Aberration (psionic) from, cant find it in the complete psionics book
base attack was calculated using the rules in the Monster Manual 3.5.
3 HD Aberration = BAB +2
Size modfier for being fine = +8 (per page 291 of Monster manual)
Str modifier for having a 2 str = - 4
total BAB = +6 (+2 +8 - 4)
per expanded psionic handbook, any creature with the ability to manifest powers, use psi-like aiblities, etc.. gains the psionic subtype in addition to any other type and subtype.
so any creature with psionics has the psionic subtype.... they just happen to have reh aberration type.
poka (bye in russian)
He flourished in his early training years only because he had the "natural" charms, effectively making him the pet of a higher ranking female templar.
However, at a certain point in life not all things can continue everlasting. "His" patron was supposedly killed in action fighting the Veiled Alliance, meaning his happy life had ended.
Saektos knew it was done via the rivaling hand of another templar.
Knowing he knew a little to much for his own health he decided to take the opportunity when it would present itself. not much later the same week Andropinis made a decree he needed volunteers to come forward for a special mission, and Saektos knew this was his ticket out of the precarious situation he was in. He knew he had to take a leap of faith to stay alive and ahead of his greater opposition.
The trip to the ruins of Kalidnay were reasonably uneventfull. The full group on this mission consisted of 36 soldiers, 6 "sergeant's" (incl. himself) and a group of 5 higher ranking templars and officers.
The first 2 weeks were simply cleaning out duty of the aboveground ruins itself, witch was a hardfought battle agains an asortment of various monsters, none of wich he liked in particular, compared to his life in the city.
Half of those soldiers were dead at the end of the 2nd week and that meant more stress on the officers as they would have to explain the great lord Andropinis how and why their incompetence had let such things happen.
On top of that a heavy sand storm delayed things another week, although he himself did not understand yet what it was they were specifically looking for, such was not his station to know nor ask about yet. He looked at his officers with contempt, because they were actually not there to save theyre lives but just to carry out the orders of the great lord himself, they had no choice, he had had a choice and felt his motivation was more fitting to get him into a position of power or at least the recocnition he needed to come back and still stay alive.
Because of his reluctance to commit his soldiers to any actual battle he only had lost 3 soldiers uptill then, making him a bit bolder now that the storm was over, any remaining creatures had hidden themselves from the storms wrath, and so were not yet present to deter the soldiers from scanning the ruins again. So Saektos went into the ruins again with a fanatical zeal to prove his superiors he was better then them, hopefully.
during the 2nd day after the storm, one of the soldiers found a strange entrance that was devoid of rubble, there was a bit of sand, apparently the storm was powerfull enough to get a bit of its mass through the wardings.
The soldier alerted Saektos and they walked towards the entrance, carefull not to disturb any loos rubble lying around. Saektos cast a detection spell that was granted by the great lord and scanned the surroundings of the door, there seemed to be no malign enchantments as far as he could detect, so he ordered the soldier to step forward, the soldier did, and luck was with them, nothing happened. The door was made of solid Obsidian, but was surprisingly easy to handle, as if no wear or tear had ever had a chance to settle on it.
Once inside the hallway they found a labirinth of causeways, all shadowy and looming, made of the same obsidian.
Slowly they advanced, after Saektos had ordered the remaining 2 soldiers to stand guard at the doorway and let none pass besides the officers, if they would show up.
they spend 3 hours combing the corridors and rooms, nothing was to be found.
Then after some delibirate cursing another door was found, again Saektos asked his lord to grant him the sight to see what few may handle, magic and again he found no malign effect on the door nor on the doorway itself.
they stepped through and found a large rectangular room with in all the walls what appeared to be windows of pure crystal clear glass, as he himself had never seen such marvels of architecture he was amazed by the sight and let a gasp of air escape, it was frosty as it left his mouth and that also amazed him, as he knew it was still highsun outside.
Slowly stepping to what looked like a huge table, made of the same black obsidian, when they got nearer to it they saw there was actually water on its surface, Saektosheld a hand above the liquid and gently touched it, it rippled as his fingers broke the water surface.
he marvelled at the wonder of so much water in a manmade room and the fact it was so cool to the touch. He asked his lord again to assist his needs and this time he checked for poisonous residues, none to be found to his reluctance.
he slowly scouped up a handfull of the liquid and drank it, it was delicious and cooling, he fealt very clear now, and thoughts of apreciation slipped into his mind, he thought this water basin would make his officers very happy.
He ordered the soldier to immediately report to the high templar and report the findings.
Standing there with a hand in the water and his mind on completely different matters he was completely unaware of the snakelike creature jumping out of the water aiming straight for his mouth, he never knew what hit him. Saektos as we knew was no more.
Afu Rah as the great queen had named him made himself comfortable and opened his eyes, they lighted up and he could see his surroundings from a completely different angle.
he was amazed at how different his world, the water basin had looked like now that he was standing at the edge with his hand in the water. he vaguely heared the rumblings in his head from the former host untill they slowly died out. He wondered what to do next, as all he knew of life was being in a basin full with nice cold and dark water. he longed to know what was out there, and he was in for a shock.
He pushed himself into the mind of the host and found he had just given an order to another human, he remembered the details and thought on what to do, slowly moving to the door and trying to feel his new body and how it moved, he went through the door and up through the labirinth, up the stairs to where he had posted the soldiers. he stopped and looked at them, they looked at "him" with a expression of askance, he remembered such things even though he had almost never seen such expressions, it made him think how he could have such knowlegde without actual experience.
he wanted to tell he had new orders for them in the strange voice this body had but he could not get sound out, he needed to cough, the dry dusty air was not his normal way of getting air. after the fit of coughing he settled down, one of the soldiers supporting him in sitting down to get a breath again, he thanked the soldier, but that only gave him even more of a questionable reaction, so he said he should not mind.
the third soldier returned with a pompuos fat figure of a man, and though that figure looked out of place in this heated environment he did notice that there was more to this man, he could feel power emanating from this man, almosy like the power he himself had, so much inner strenght.
After playing along about the water resevoir he understood they could not all go out of the water yet, there were not enough hosts and it would raise suspision, so when he had another chance alone he spoke to some of the others and explained them to be patient, that he would get sutable hosts back here and they would in time be able to leave this place at theire own bidding.
Once outside he saw what a devastation had been srought upon the fair city, he wanted to weep but would not, as it would be strange for this host to seem so "weak".
He still did not know why he was what he was, and even how he had this knowledge he seemed to posess, but that would hopefully come with due time.
During the following days he had some of his brethren take hosts in the soldiers as well, but he dared not take any bigger targets for fear they could resist the domination and attack them.
during the remaining week they stayed in Kalidnay, he just told his brethren what he saw outside.
Then the fat man ordered them to hed back to Balic, and when the man spoke that name it stirred somethign in his being, as if he knew the name, he would have to find out what made him react so.
During the weeks it took to travel back, he got to understand his powers as "Saektos", the spells he could command and were in his memory, command in a way, as he had to ask his master, seemingly a same type of king like Kalid-Ma was a queen to him, for the power he needed. And then the power was gone, suddenly and without warning, others also cried out as they noticed the difference in what was now absent. Theyre lord was no longer in this world he found out. but not as to why, how could such a powerfull being suddenly not grant that wat was there always, intriguing.
That was a link to answers, his queen was also gone, and so was this king now, it seemed so similar, that if he could find out what had happened, it might slowly give him answers.
That had to wait untill they got back to Balic, for now he was to adjust and survive.
hope more people will comment though..
Mind you, it's a cute idea and works. In fact, I run a d20 Stargate game based in Athas (Or a warped versions of Athas).
Pretty much just rewrote the history and threw a lot of the PP out. Rajaat was Ra. The Champions were Ghoua-uld who rebelled and drove him off (And he had bigger fish so he let em) And one of the rebel lords (Dregoth) took possession of the Stargate and claimed it was lost in the battle with Ra.
Actually runs quite well, but again, involves a complete re-vamp of the World's history and play (Just used Technology and Jaffa as Templars and used various tech to explain away all the magic). But it also works just fine with the official stats of Jaffa, Ghoua'uld, etc.
but was "distracted" by wanting to finish his/ her Dragon metamorphosis,
that he/ she never got to finish the project, so the reason for them to exist and such is not actually known.
The magic that kept them in stasis so long has been slowly fading and left them to awaken and "activate" themselves, and to explore the Obsidian catacomb-like water basins (that are underground and interlinked with small waterways only big enough for "fish sized" creatures to use) and had time to grow themselves, hence the racial levels and differences between the various members of the race.
i am still brainwaving on any other details..
It is only if they still had the whole "we are your gods" idea that they would become a major nuissance to the SK's.... as they are now they are a good mid level threat/opponent.
besides being a good new race no one knows much about and be good as annoying NPC's
the reason for their creation is not clear, so the DM in question can make up any reason for that.
things like assasin/ spy come to mind, or simply a stronger basis for a new breed of templars
Still curious how they survive on Athas, as Sekar's point about Power level is right.
Mind you, it's a cute idea and works. In fact, I run a d20 Stargate game based in Athas (Or a warped versions of Athas).
Pretty much just rewrote the history and threw a lot of the PP out. Rajaat was Ra. The Champions were Ghoua-uld who rebelled and drove him off (And he had bigger fish so he let em) And one of the rebel lords (Dregoth) took possession of the Stargate and claimed it was lost in the battle with Ra.
Actually runs quite well, but again, involves a complete re-vamp of the World's history and play (Just used Technology and Jaffa as Templars and used various tech to explain away all the magic). But it also works just fine with the official stats of Jaffa, Ghoua'uld, etc.
Ah, see that's exactly what I was talking about, except that I'd replace the tech with magic and psionics. Have the templars have symbiotes instead of signets, but keep the templar spellcasting.
The problem of arcane magic is even greater at the level of the epic sections.... as the dragon magic ability would end up draining their own hosts and killing the hosts of the SK.
The problem with replacing the Sk's with Ghoua-uld's is one of the nature of magic.... if you leave them with psionics and lifeshaping you have a valid version.... heck and having them "grant" psionics to their followers ala the Divine Mind class from the Complete Psionics would be perfect for their Jaffa templars. The Divine Mind class could be made to require a symbiot in this version and grants secular authority.
The problem of arcane magic is even greater at the level of the epic sections.... as the dragon magic ability would end up draining their own hosts and killing the hosts of the SK.
Naw. The symbiote provides immunity. BTW, do SKs have familliars? :D
Naw. The symbiote provides immunity. BTW, do SKs have familliars? :D
I highly doubt they do.... as they would have killed them long ago.... in my own write up of defilers and preservers, defilers do not get familiars at all.... because the defiling would cause so much pain as to break the bond.... which is why i give them a free raze feat instead
but regardless i will keep my idea of the Goua'Uld being created by SQ
Kalid-Ma, but original intent not known and now they have to fill themselves into a new and bizzare world..