1) Although officially Ochaelans dont like non-humans, there are other creatures than humans on the islands. The main group are ofcourse Dragons! As per previous discussions Thyatian Dragons, serving as mounts for the Knights of the Air and the Retebius Air Fleet could actually be Dragons from Wyrmsteeth and Ochaela. This would be an explaination to why Thyatis has Dragonriders in AC1000, but not in AC1010 since Ochaela is no longer a colony. Ochaela would be ideal for Gold Dragons and other metallics if they exist IYC.
2) Going further with that I was considering Half-Dragons, but then realized we have something better in Mystara: Drakes! Mandrakes take the shape of humans, thus seemingly keeping Ochaela human-only and are on friendly terms with the Dragons mentioned above.
3) The Rakasta connection. I dont know if anyone ever came up with a good explaination for the Samurai-like Rakasta on the moon (Myoshima), but what if they were once natives of Ochaela? The Ochaelans, being related to Alphatians would have the power to send the catmen to the moon when they became too obnoxious and this could also explain the similarities of these cultures. As China and Japan are divided by the ocean, Ochaela and Myoshima are divided by the Void....
4) Mystics. Ochaela should be THE main center for the Mystic Class on Mystara. If there was ever a gazetteer for this country, I am sure this class would get excellent treatment there. There should be different schools ofcourse and impressive physical powers displayed through inner discipline.
5) The names on the map are totally ridiculous! Has anyone tried to revise or change them?
Thoughts?
Håvard
4) Mystics. Ochaela should be THE main center for the Mystic Class on Mystara. If there was ever a gazetteer for this country, I am sure this class would get excellent treatment there. There should be different schools ofcourse and impressive physical powers displayed through inner discipline.
If I have the staying power, or if others want to pick up the banner
, a pod of gazetteers for Caerdwicca-Ochalea-Pearl Islands-Alatians is a real goal. [thematic pods are the reason Thanegioth Archipelago keeps getting pushed back 
- sorry]For Ochalea: the mystic/monk obviously takes center stage, but I would also add weapon mastery (perhaps revised) as an important development.
Dragon had some good 1ed NPC class variants that could be useful - like the "dart master" messenger and the escrimador.
My preferred view of Myoshimans is that some Blackmoor device basically acts as a transporter beam that periodically pulled up primitive rakasta and pachydermions, etc. The Silver Stairway to the Moon. Their M-Japanese development would occur in isolation to M-Chinese Ochaleans or M-Mongol Ethengars.
5) The names on the map are totally ridiculous! Has anyone tried to revise or change them?
Thoughts?
I don't recall any names that struck me as out-of-place. Which ones did you have in mind?
The Rakasta connection. I dont know if anyone ever came up with a good explaination for the Samurai-like Rakasta on the moon (Myoshima), but what if they were once natives of Ochaela?
There is this piece by Bruce Heard: "Myoshima, Bellayne, and things Feline" http://www.pandius.com/mybelyne.html
There's also these articles: http://www.pandius.com/themoons.html
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/kompor.html
and http://www.pandius.com/rak_hist.html
I'd really like to see Polyhedron #120, since it provides some details on how one RPGA member detailed Myoshima, using material from Oriental Adventures. Since it's a TSR publication, it would be at least semi-official. Does anybody have a copy of this? Especially to see if it had a map!
Here's a link to the download: http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/w/wizardsOfTheCoast/byProductType/magazines/polyhedron/1996/v5748btpy7n7s.I don't own a credit card, so I can't buy the download. Curiously, no mention of the OA Myoshima article is mentioned in the table of contents. Is this the right issue?
I don't think that every Asian-style culture in Mystara necessarily has to have a common origin, just as not every European-style Mystaran culture has to be connected. Though Chinese civilization has had a great influence on Japan, China and Japan are as different as Italy and Germany or France and England.
For what it's worth, and at the risk of hi-jacking the thread, I'm not so keen on having an M-Asian Skothar. We've already got an M-Asia in the invisible moon of Patera: there's an M-Japan (Myoshiman Empire), M-Philipines (Malacayog), M-Indonesia (M-Surabayang), M-Singapore (M-Selimpore), M-Cambodia (Kompor-Thap), and (another) M-India (Rajahstan). Then there's the East Asian cultures down on the planet: Ochalea (M-China), Ethengar (M-Mongolia and Uighurstan), the nomadic Yazak rakastas (M-Japanese barbarians), and the Lhamsa area of Glantri (M-Tibet). Not to mention the South Asian, Central Asian, and West Asian cultures: several M-Indian countries (Sind, Jaibul, Shahjapur), Herath (M-Canaan), Ylaruam (M-Arabia + Muslim Central Asia), Hule (M-Ottoman Turkey), Jennites (M-Scythia), and the M-Mesopotamian cultures of the Savage Coast. There's also the Asian-style savage humanoids of the Broken Lands (e.g. Yellow Orkia, Gnollistan).
Though European-style cultures are a majority in the Known World, and though there is a quasi-European fantasy structure inherent in the D&D rules, the Known World really isn't a European analogue. In addition to the KW's M-Asian countries, it also has M-Native North America (Atruaghin Clans and Oenkmar), M-Hawai'i (Ierendi), M-Melanesia (Isle of Dread), M-Carib (Isle of Rosentos), and some M-United States influence in Darokin. In my opinion, part of the charm of Mystara that it's a patchwork quilt. So since the KW isn't an M-Europe, in my opinion, there doesn't need to be an M-Asia on Skothar. I do imagine that in the regions of "Nentsun", the "Empire of the Great Khan", the "Empire of Tangor", and "Zyxyl" (from the Masters Set map http://www.pandius.com/master-outer-world.png), there could be several KW-style regions with tiny countries from a variety of RW and fantastic cultures, with each region having its own unique overlying themes, and one or more of the overlying themes of one or more of the regions might be Asian-related (e.g. martial arts, like how swashbuckling is a theme of the Savage Coast). Zyxyl might be (another) M-Japan, or it might not. Eastern Skothar is geographically equivalent to the RW East Asia...but southeastern Brun (the Known World) is geographically equivalent to southeast North America, and southwestern Brun (the Savage Coast) is geographically equivalent to southwest North America...but this fact doesn't affect the cultural make-up of the KW and SC. The geographic analogue to Europe is the Isle of Dawn (Britain and Ireland), Alphatia (Fennoscandia), Bellisaria (Balkans), Ochalea (Galicia in Spain), the Alatians (bits of France), and the floor of the Sea of Dawn and Alphatian Sea (http://www.scotese.com/late1.htm). If we went by what culture is geographically located at the equivalent place on the Mystara continents vis-a-vis the RW Earth continents, then Yavdlom would be an M-Florida with M-Seminoles and M-retirees, and Glantri might be an M-West Virginia!
Shane
The names on the map are totally ridiculous! Has anyone tried to revise or change them?
I studied Mandarin in the RW analogue of Beitung, and looking at the Ochalean names on this map http://www.pandius.com/alatians-pearl-ochalea-24.png, they look okay to me. One "improper" thing I see is that the names use a hodgepodge of Pinyin (e.g. "bei", "zhao"), Wade-Giles (e.g. "tsu"), and traditional (e.g. "kiang") romanizations for the spellings. Also one of the syllables is not possible in Mandarin ("phong"), but could be a valid form in Cantonese...but it'd be spelled with an "f" instead of a "ph" ("ph" is used in Vietnamese, not Chinese). In my opinion though, these imperfections are irrelevant. As long as the names look like Chinese, it's good enough for Mystara. The way I see it, Ochalean names don't have to be perfect, any more than Karameikan names must be textbook perfect Middle Greek, Old Bulgarian, and Romanian.
Going further with that I was considering Half-Dragons, but then realized we have something better in Mystara: Drakes! Mandrakes take the shape of humans, thus seemingly keeping Ochaela human-only and are on friendly terms with the Dragons mentioned above.
I do feel that drakes fit well with Ochalea. There'd also be the Chinese lupin breeds.
Shane
Eastern Skothar is geographically equivalent to the RW East Asia...but southeastern Brun (the Known World) is geographically equivalent to southeast North America, and southwestern Brun (the Savage Coast) is geographically equivalent to southwest North America...but this fact doesn't affect the cultural make-up of the KW and SC.
You made some very good points about not needing to follow Earth as a model when placing cultures - i.e., just because the larger part of Davania corresponds with Gondwanaland (South America, Africa, India, Australia, and Antarctica), it does not necessarily follow that cultures on that continent need to be based on RW African or South American cultures. I'm in complete agreement here.
[digression]
One thing that did interest me particularly were your analogues between RW and Mystaran geography - keeping in mind, of course, that Mystara is much smaller than Earth. Given that North America was tilted more or less on an angle towards the northeast around that time, the correspondence between the Serpent Peninsula and Florida is clear, as is Texas and the Yalu Bay/Orc's Head Peninsula region. Likewise, Norwold, to me, was always Greenland before it split off from North America - which led me to conclude that Heldann, the Northern Reaches would be the coast of Labrador, Thyatis would be Newfoundland and the Gulf of St. Lawrence, with Karameikos, the Shires, Darokin, and Atruaghin stretching out to around Maryland/North Carolina.
Trying to turn this back to Mystara - does anyone use the geography where they live to influence various regions of their campaigns?
Geoff
[/digression]
1) Although officially Ochaelans dont like non-humans, there are other creatures than humans on the islands. The main group are ofcourse Dragons! As per previous discussions Thyatian Dragons, serving as mounts for the Knights of the Air and the Retebius Air Fleet could actually be Dragons from Wyrmsteeth and Ochaela. This would be an explaination to why Thyatis has Dragonriders in AC1000, but not in AC1010 since Ochaela is no longer a colony. Ochaela would be ideal for Gold Dragons and other metallics if they exist IYC.
Sounds reasonable. I had some thoughts about dragons and Ochalea recently, but I can't recall offhand what they were.
3) The Rakasta connection. I dont know if anyone ever came up with a good explaination for the Samurai-like Rakasta on the moon (Myoshima), but what if they were once natives of Ochaela? The Ochaelans, being related to Alphatians would have the power to send the catmen to the moon when they became too obnoxious and this could also explain the similarities of these cultures. As China and Japan are divided by the ocean, Ochaela and Myoshima are divided by the Void....
I've had a couple of different explanations over the years, but at the core, I've always postulated that Ochalea was originally inhabited by the rakasta, prior to the arrival of humans. As I currently am looking at things, the rakasta were sort of a barbaric culture on Ochalea and then came into contact with the Ochalean/Alphatians when they arrived. They eventually overtook and enslaved the Ochaleans (much in the way the Mongols conquered China), and became more "ochalean" than rakasta. At one point, they used some of the Ochalean flying treasure fleet (that was instrumental in assisting the Alphatians to the new world) to settle a colony on Myoshima. When the Ochaleans eventually threw off the shackles of their oppressors, the Myoshiman colony remained, but was now isolated (they had a couple of Ochalean flying ships, but not the knowledge of magic to create more). The Myoshiman colony eventually took on a more Japanese-like culture in isolation from the Chinese-like Ochalean mainland.
There is a timeline I came up with for Patera long ago, but as I noted above, my current line of thought is somewhat different from the elements that I initially based that timeline on.
5) The names on the map are totally ridiculous! Has anyone tried to revise or change them?
How do you mean ridiculous? I'm not looking at the map right now, but I don't recall that there were all that many names, and the ones they had seemed somewhat Chinese-ish.
James Mishler came up with a couple of maps of Ochalea a long time ago, but as he noted, they use somewhat more Japanese names than Chinese. But it is still the best and most detailed description anyone has yet done.
I have long wanted to do more with Ochalea myself. Steven Carter on the MML, when he was discussing doing the same, came up with an idea that hadn't occurred to me before he mentioned it, but that I would incorporate when doing up Ochalea, and that is to divide it up into smaller chunks/kingdoms/regions that would be not just M-Chinese, but also some other M-Asian equivalents (M-Korea, M-Vietnam, etc.). After all, the Ochalean island is enormous (covering an area comparable to the Known World, with all its myriad and mishmash cultures).
Of course, I think there is also a general western-centric tendency to view China as one gigantic homogenous culture as well, despite very pronounced regional differences and traditions across the scope of the country, so I'd like to incorporate that as well. The little bit of info that we've been given on Ochalea is just not enough to really do that nation justice at all.
History as the Ochaleans Know It
History as the Immortals Know It
Customs and Traditions
Trade and Livelihood
The Dragons of Ochalea
The Emperor's Breath
The Jade Orchid Cabal
The Towers of Saraakos
The Underkingdom
The Windswords of Luontang
The Withered Palm
I don't have time to read it all, but just scanning through, it looks like a good start for one of OldDawg's Gazeteers, if you two would collaborate with each other (wink wink, hint hint)...
I do like the Ochlea/Myoshima connection, but I've yet to visit that area in any of my campaigns so I have little imput of my own...
Roger
Steven Carter on the MML, when he was discussing doing the same, came up with an idea that hadn't occurred to me before he mentioned it, but that I would incorporate when doing up Ochalea, and that is to divide it up into smaller chunks/kingdoms/regions that would be not just M-Chinese, but also some other M-Asian equivalents (M-Korea, M-Vietnam, etc.). After all, the Ochalean island is enormous (covering an area comparable to the Known World, with all its myriad and mishmash cultures).
Though those two countries are among the few major countries that don't (yet) have a Mystara version, I see M-Korea and M-Vietnam as having their own analogues somewhere else on Mystara. Heck, they could be placed in any as yet unexplored place on Mystara...no need to place them within or near another M-Asian country. Ochalea is big, but IMO not so big that it needs to be stuffed full of other Asian cultures. James' map of the provinces seems to represent the provinces of "China Proper"* pretty well in my opinion (as long as the Japanese placenames were switched to Chinese).
*The area of inner China that was/is historically considered the "homeland", which is distinguished from the outlying tributary states which are now either independent (Korea, Vietnam, Burma, Mongolia), incorporated into another independent country (Ryukyu Islands, Java), or have become "autonomous regions" of China instead of regular provinces (Tibet, Uighurstan).
The outlying independent or autonomous cultures deserve their own separate M-analogues in my opinion, like there already are in Ethengar (M-Mongolia and Uighurstan) and Lhamsa (M-Tibet). However, it might be fitting to have a few Ochalean dominions at the prefectural level (the administrative level beneath provinces) that are M-versions of minor minority peoples of inner China, such as the Miao, Yao, and Yi peoples. They could even be represented by humanoids of some kind (I don't mean orcs...I mean something dignified*, just not human), which would fit with Ochaleans'/Chinese' traditional disdain for non-humans/non-Chinese minorities. It's clear on this map how different the status of the Tibetans, Uighurs, and Mongolians of outer China is compared to the little islands of peoples scattered through inner China: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/china_ethnolinguistic_1967.jpg.
Anyway, in China these minor ethnic groups often have their own self-ruling government at the prefectural level ("autonomous prefectures"), so this would be fitting for Ochalea. Actually, some tiny ethnic groups have "autonomous counties" - counties being the level below prefectures - but this is probably too detailed for Ochalea, at least until someone wrote a full-blown Ochalean gazetteer.
*For example, the M-Miao could be a Butterfly-folk (aka Aurelians, a new race with 3E and OD&D stats), since their RW legends say they are descended from butterflies.
A final note: despite the fact that the Manchurians are nowadays mostly assimilated (and thus aren't even depicted on the map), I'd say they might deserve their own M-country somewhere else, since they had their own large country and language for much of history (consisting of present day NE China).
My two fen,
Shane
One thing that did interest me particularly were your analogues between RW and Mystaran geography - keeping in mind, of course, that Mystara is much smaller than Earth. Given that North America was tilted more or less on an angle towards the northeast around that time, the correspondence between the Serpent Peninsula and Florida is clear, as is Texas and the Yalu Bay/Orc's Head Peninsula region. Likewise, Norwold, to me, was always Greenland before it split off from North America - which led me to conclude that Heldann, the Northern Reaches would be the coast of Labrador, Thyatis would be Newfoundland and the Gulf of St. Lawrence, with Karameikos, the Shires, Darokin, and Atruaghin stretching out to around Maryland/North Carolina.
Trying to turn this back to Mystara - does anyone use the geography where they live to influence various regions of their campaigns?
Geoff
[/digression]
I have a little, in the campaigns I've DM'd, mostly only in trying to determine what plant-life/flora would exist in the particular regions. I can't say I went into it in a lot of detail, and still would only use such comparisons to RW loosely, after investigating in the various GAZs and other published sources what I could about flora. This was for the purpose of determing what regions would have certain plants for herbal/medicinal uses, and to a lesser degree, what kinds of woods would be used for making furniture, crafts, etc.
For example, I thought that olive trees were certainly appropriate for the Thyatian culture, but they were a little odd in the western hemisphere. Regardless, I still allowed for them, for one thing, since they greatly influence the culture itself (and others, from the Greeks to the mid-east).
I was generally looking at a lot of North American plant life to try and determing what trees, etc. were native to certain areas, but I wasn't trying to extrapolate EXACTLY where RW positions were, or even accounting much for shifting of the land masses over the millenia.
I would have liked to do the same thing with gemstones, too, to find out which gemstones were more common in some regions (affecting availability, price, and what adventurers would more often find in treasures), but that takes a little more research (and I haven't taken the time). The geologic references at the bottom of the TM1 map (or TM2, can't remember?) about mountain ranges was certainly helpful for this. But, of course, that's not really a RW-comparison that I was worried about, in that respect.
(Hope this isn't a thread-jack; we can put this in another thread if needed
.)I don't know if some information on herbal plants, etc. might have been done by some others and posted on the web or in the Vaults. Guess it would help to look.