Sadira, the famous enchantress and gonfalonier of Athas.org, once possessed of the powers of the Steeple of Crystals, no longer requires, when the sun is upon her, to memorize spells:
During the day, when she was imbued with the sun's power, Sadira could shape her magic with little more than a thought. But at night, she was like any other sorceress. She could use only spells whose mystic runes she had impressed on her mind through hours of rigorous study. Unfortunately, speaking an enchantment's incantation erased its runes from the mind, so the caster could not use the spell a second time until she studied it again.
(CS, 287)
If this is so, then must we assume that the champions have the same ability, which is, again, to cast spells without recourse to spellbooks and study?
This issue, to me, is a rather central problem. Now, aesthetically, I often muse that I prefer the dragon-kings (champions) actually memorizing their spells like everyone else, especially because the supplements and adventure modules seem to favor this opinion, as well as for other reasons. However, it seems difficult to deny that they would have at least the same powers as Sadira, as far as spell non-memorization goes, and the supposition that they would have weaker powers with regards to this seems to me unflatteringly weak and illogical. Sadira was made without the Dark Lens, and if the champions were made with it, we might logically expect that they would be at least as powerful as her in this matter, or if not more powerful. Indeed, tentatively, I must reluctantly agree that they can whip spells out just as easily as Sadira, and perhaps even more easily. This of course makes the champions, with regards to spells, more fit the mold of Lynn Abbey's genocidal anti-heroes, but it seems to fit the mold of even the Prism Pentad.
Rules wise, it is difficult to fall upon the exact method of how the sorcerer-monarchs might have "rememorized" their spells. Sadira seems to get a new allotment of them whenever the sun rises (does she slowly regain them throughout the day perhaps... what would happen, for instance, if she used a spell to follow the day around Athas?). How quickly might the sorcerer-monarchs regain their spells? I have conjectured, in 2nd edition game terms, that both Sadira and the monarchs might receive "spell slots" for every ten minutes that pass (one slot for every ten minutes). These slots would accrue until their maximum spell capacity was reached. They would not be assigned spells, per se, upon accretion, but would rather be expended only upon the casting of a spell. Furthermore, a 21st level dragon, who could only cast two 9th level spells according to Dragon Kings for instance, could not cast 9th level spells indefinately using this method. The spell "slots" would be drained upon the casting of these two 9th level spells, and of course lower level spells could be cast subsequently, but the 9th level spells could only be cast again after 90 minutes had passed (10 minute per spell level, as per the old Player's Handbook spell memorization rules). Is this method, which I have spelled out here in the proverbial nutshell, appropriate to Dark Sun game mechanics?
Indeed, there are further questions on this matter. Tantalizingly, in Dragon's Crown for instance, we are told that, with regards to PCs attacking Hamanu, that the sorcerer-king might, "as a 21st level Dragon... unleash wishes, meteor swarms, and time stops all day long" (Out of the Valley, 59). Does this imply that the champions (and/or dragons/avangions?) can cast multiple, multiple high level spells, perhaps even without limit... or does this rather imply that Hamanu has a great many spell scrolls?
Unfortunately, the Prism Pentad is of little help to us in these matters, for neither Sadira or the kings cast enough spells at any one time for us to conjecture as to the specifics of their spell casting ability. What is the fate of the matter then? If we side with the game materials, it seems to me that we necessarily nix the Prism Pentad's description of how it all works. Of course, one could simply say Sadira is somehow an exception, but this seems rather puerile to me.
Yet another consideration is what do we do about other advanced beings, such as spirits of the land, character elementals and dragons and avangions? Might their spells return to them in ways parallel to how they return to Sadira (even if for different reasons)?
These seems to be to be rather important questions. The board members' input on this matter would be of considerable help to me, for even Athas.org seems not to have addressed this issue head on, least not in the e-publications of the dragon and champion templates, from what I could see.
As for the arguments regarding champions=dragons, this matter might give a slight difference between champion dragons and "regular" dragons (as well as avangions).
And yet another comment: we could dismiss the Pentad's descriptions, and simply return to regular spell memorization (which is much easier for game mechanics I think, especially in regards to 10th level spells, etc.), blasting Sadira's ability to not need to memorize spells as simply Denning's novel writing privilege.
...
Also, perhaps Sadira's other powers need discussion. Beyond the Prism Pentad's stats of her are rather ridiculous, and bear only a crude resemblence to what we knows of her from the Pentad (the SMs' stats are also poorly constructed, btw).
I'll save Sadira's other powers for another thread I think though.
(I'm not too keen at the moment on dredging up all the spellbook/ non spellbook instances and inferences... if anyone is interested in these (and some of them are rather pertinent) request it so.)
Simply because the same equipment was used does not, to me, imply that the processes, or end results, were at all similar.
Tantalizingly, in Dragon's Crown for instance, we are told that, with regards to PCs attacking Hamanu, that the sorcerer-king might, "as a 21st level Dragon... unleash wishes, meteor swarms, and time stops all day long" (Out of the Valley, 59). Does this imply that the champions (and/or dragons/avangions?) can cast multiple, multiple high level spells, perhaps even without limit... or does this rather imply that Hamanu has a great many spell scrolls?
I think this is more exaggeration to push home the point that Hamanu's (or any other 21st level wizard's) extremely potent magic should make it rather easy to overcome the PC's at that point in the adventure. I do not feel it implies any special powers. Hamanu could very well have a large number of spell stored on scrolls or other items, however.
And yet another comment: we could dismiss the Pentad's descriptions, and simply return to regular spell memorization (which is much easier for game mechanics I think, especially in regards to 10th level spells, etc.), blasting Sadira's ability to not need to memorize spells as simply Denning's novel writing privilege.
I simply do this:
During the day Sadria is an 18th level Sun Mage. She has the normal complement of spells for her level. However she can cast any spell she knows, untill her spells per level are expended (rather like a 3E sorcerer). The next sun rise her full complement of spells are available to her, without any need to consult her spellbooks to rememorize or prepare them.
During the night, or when sun light is otherwise not available, she is a 10th level preserver. I use an independant spell list in this case, and these must be memorized normally, and rememorize/prepared if expended.
I have no real problem with her statistics as listed in "Beyond the Prism Pentad".
...I'll save Sadira's other powers for another thread I think though...
That thread was done a couple of years ago. I made a "sun touched" template to explain Sadira's sun granted abilities. If you're interested here's the link to it: Sun Touched
During the day, when she was imbued with the sun's power, Sadira could shape her magic with little more than a thought. But at night, she was like any other sorceress. She could use only spells whose mystic runes she had impressed on her mind through hours of rigorous study. Unfortunately, speaking an enchantment's incantation erased its runes from the mind, so the caster could not use the spell a second time until she studied it again.
(CS, 287)
There is nothing alike in the description of Sadira from Beyond the Prism Pentad, p. 25-26, so I consider the novel to have no effect on the game mechanics.:
in Dragon's Crown for instance, we are told that, with regards to PCs attacking Hamanu, that the sorcerer-king might, "as a 21st level Dragon... unleash wishes, meteor swarms, and time stops all day long" (Out of the Valley, 59). Does this imply that the champions (and/or dragons/avangions?) can cast multiple, multiple high level spells, perhaps even without limit... or does this rather imply that Hamanu has a great many spell scrolls?
The latter indeed. Moreover, even one meteor swarm can impress very well just any DS character of level 10 to 13.:OMG!
And yet another comment: we could dismiss the Pentad's descriptions, and simply return to regular spell memorization (which is much easier for game mechanics I think, especially in regards to 10th level spells, etc.), blasting Sadira's ability to not need to memorize spells as simply Denning's novel writing privilege.
I think it is the only reasonable way to do.
The more likely explaination to me is, however, that Rajaat hadn't even contemplated the idea of giving his Champions *constant* access to the sun's power - i.e. as long as it's up - when he originally created them. He used the sun to fuel their transformation, but that was for the instant burst of power and not intended as a constant effect. Sadira, on the other hand, was different: without access to the Dark Lens there was no way to draw *permanent* power from the sun, and hence she was bound to it in such a way that she could draw *temporary* power from it when in its presence.
The primary reason I think the latter reason makes the most sense is that, prior to the rebellion, there were no shadow giants, which is what Sadira takes after in some ways. They were created by the S-K's during the rebellion, and spent the last 2 millenia as the only source of contact between Rajaat and the 'real world.' During that time Rajaat reconfigured his body (as you see in the Cerulean Storm), and as part of that he developed more of an affinity to the shadow-aspect of the sun's power. It seems reasonable to assume, given what we know, that this is something Rajaat hadn't even thought about prior to his entrapment. The fact that Sadira visibly looks like a shadow giant during the day lends more credence to this - if the shadow giants were originally created by the Champions and not by Rajaat (that being the official explaination), then their abilities and appearance didn't exist prior to then...so no real reason to expect Rajaat to have thought about that approach to transformation. It wasn't until two millenia later that he indirectly turned Sadira into what she was - that's a long time for the First Wizard to come up with new and improved ways of creating powerful entities from 'basic stock.'
Along a similar line, we've got Hamanu to support this idea; he's different than the other Champions, but he was also created a millenium after the first Champions. During that time Rajaat apparently learned some new things about magic and magical transformations, so stack another 2000 years onto that and we've got yet another "improvement" (or at least, "version") in the form of Sadira.
With regards to Sadira's "creation" at the Pristine Tower, and it being very different from that of the SMs' empowerings, surely oralpain may conjecture, as I conjectured with my version, that the use of the same artifact (the Steeple of Crystals) to imbue the sun wizard Sadira with her awesome powers need not actually confer corresponding abilities upon the SMs via parallel logic. Indeed, as Dirk has offered, Rajaat via the Shadow Giants or what have you may have changed the "empowerment" process by a considerable mark during the First Sorcerer's long imprisonment in the Hollow (or perhaps Rajaat could always have created something like Sadira, or even already had in the ancient past...). I for one however find it difficult to imagine Rajaat's champions being much weaker than Sadira, for of course she was created without the Dark Lens, one of or perhaps the most powerful artifact in D&D history.
As to the Hamanu example (lobbing multiple 9th level spells), oralpain and monastyrski are of course almost certainly correct that the writer is either using some exagerations or is simply meaning to convey the SK's use of spell scrolls.
As to oralpain's simplified system (in comparison to the one I presented), the simplified statement seems very satisfactory. However, I included the 10 minute per "spell slot" rule so as to deal with any "day chasing" scenario where Sadira would not actually have a setting and rising sun in a 24 hour+ scenario. It is a cumbersome rule (the 10 minute thing) surely, but it might be necessary, and indeed, it would help correspond to the champions' spell restorations.
Several of you have voice your uncomfortableness with SMs or even Sadira "regenerating" spells without the use of spellbooks. Monastyrski for instance prefers a strong backing of the rule books over the novels, even the core novels (the Prism Pentad). This is quite understandable and even laudable to a degree, but the issue of Sadira is not so easily rolled over for me (even though I might prefer to roll it over), because of several key issues. For instance, Sadira being able to, as a sun wizardess, suddenly regain her entire spell allotment at the beginning of the day is essential to the final outcome of the Prism Pentad. Were she to have been forced to rememorize her spells from a spellbook before the entrance of she and Rikus into Ur Draxa, she would not have performed successfully against Rajaat in the upcoming hours (for if she had been memorizing spells, her allotment would surely have been largely depleted by the end of the previous day's battle with the Dragon, especially with regards to the higher level spells, leaving her performance against Rajaat the subsequent day essentially impossible, for even at 18th or 20th levels, she does not have an infinite number of spells). Indeed, for Sadira the sun wizard to be memorizing spells, elements of the Cerulean Storm would have to be altered, which would mean that other crucial elements of the storyline would have had to be altered, which then of course would begin to degenerate the integral canoncy of the Pentad and therefore much of what we know about Athas and Dark Sun in general. Indeed, unless we dramatically change large portions of the story-arc, Sadira must be allowed, in a more canon campaign, and even in game deployment, her non-memorization of spells.
... I would be quite eager to read any solid arguments as to why the champions would not have the same or a similar non-memorization ability such as Sadira possesses. I myself am not terribly pleased with the kings having such an ability, but it seems to me that this is rather likely the case.
...
The Champions, at the very least, acquired a superior defiling ability of some sort, and agelessness. Also, 15 of them were empowered at once.
The main reason I discount such free acess to magic for the SKs is that no such powers are mentioned anywhere, nor are any examples of such powers being used. Sadria's example is the opposite. The PP specifically states her case. In addition game sources say she is unique.
Another reason is that Sadria needed some edge over the Kings. If the SKs did not have to memorize spells, or worse had access to more than their typical alotment for their level, they would have been utterly unstopable without decending so far into the absurd to make the game and PP a joke. In the PP they are clearly being very singy/conservative with their magic. If they could unleash the full complement of spells available to 21s-23rd level dragons, without much care for the several days, bare minimum, it would take them to recover such magic, then the heroes of Tyr would not have lasted very long, even with the help of their artifacts.
Also, the Shadow People who aided Sadria's transformation had a good idea of the limitations of the SKs. The would have wanted Sadria to have any edge against the kings possible.
Some other speculations:
At the time of the Champion's empowerment/transformation, plant and animal life would have always been available, the sun is only up for roughly half the day.
Also, none of the Champion were preservers. It's quite possible that they did not have the finesse/skill to properly utilize the energy of the sun, even if such energy was put within reach. When a defiler casts a spell (s)he pulls all the energy available with in a certain area. Perhaps such recklessness when pulling energy from the sun itself would be hazadous, or even fatal. It's not hard to imagine how trying to defile the sun could be a bad thing.
Were she to have been forced to rememorize her spells from a spellbook before the entrance of she and Rikus into Ur Draxa, she would not have performed successfully against Rajaat in the upcoming hours (for if she had been memorizing spells, her allotment would surely have been largely depleted by the end of the previous day's battle with the Dragon, especially with regards to the higher level spells, leaving her performance against Rajaat the subsequent day essentially impossible, for even at 18th or 20th levels, she does not have an infinite number of spells).
Under 2e rules (and 3[.5]e with psionics is different as well) Sadira is utterly helpless against ANY SK, and the very idea of "her performance against Rajaat", even not equipped with the Dark Lens, is absurd, whether she memorises spells or not. The only way I see to give this plot some consistency is to state that it was the version told by Sadira herself, not more true (and much less verisimiliar) than the fate of Tithian reported to the Council of Advisors. But who dares to cast doubt on the words of Lady Sadira?
One may ask a SK of course...
Another reason is that Sadria needed some edge over the Kings.
She has got none, whether she needed or not.
If the SKs did not have to memorize spells, or worse had access to more than their typical alotment for their level, they would have been utterly unstopable without decending so far into the absurd to make the game and PP a joke.
They ARE utterly unstopable by any character of lever 18. Any such attempt is absurd of course, and this makes the game sense. As for PP, s. f. my previous post.
In the PP they are clearly being very singy/conservative with their magic.
If they were not, the great oases that are city-states would have been defiled millenia ago.
If they could unleash the full complement of spells available to 21s-23rd level dragons, without much care for the several days, bare minimum, it would take them to recover such magic, then the heroes of Tyr would not have lasted very long, even with the help of their artifacts.
If SKs tried, the heroes of Tyr would not of course.:D
She has got none, whether she needed or not.
They ARE utterly unstopable by any character of lever 18.
I disagree, to an extent. There are certainly situations where being a Sun Mage would give Sadria a few advantages.
Any being that gets careless and overconfident can be vulnerable. This goes for the Sorcerer King's as well.
If they were not, the great oases that are city-states would have been defiled millenia ago.
I was refering to their relatively light use of spells in the later books of the Prism Pentad while they were far from their own cites and couldn't have cared less about defiling everything around them.
while the sun is up she gains the following:
DR 10/epic
+4 deflection bonus on AC
+10 circusmtance bonus on hide
darkvision 60
immune to magical and nonmagical cold
+4 competence bonus on saves vs paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromantic effects
chill touch at will
Caster level and spells per day increase to level 18 (and spell slots for spells per day are replenished, though no spells are memorized)
and either gains:
1 gains x signiture spells for each spell level (example 2 spells of each spell level) that can use memorized spell slots OR empty unused spell slots to cast spells.
2. gains the spellpool ability of the mages of the arcane order but it only works during the day.
these are both simple systems by the rules that allow for casting without memorizing that would not destroy the setting.
Oh and my thing on converting dragons to sorcerers, is something I revamped and just made a seperate defiler class that fit the rules better. Though I have be revamping that as well.
I was refering to their relatively light use of spells in the later books of the Prism Pentad while they were far from their own cites and couldn't have cared less about defiling everything around them.
This has less to do with the actual abilities of the sorcerer-kings and more to do with observing literary convention in a heroic epic like the Pentad. Sure, the SKs COULD have gone around slinging spells left and right and defiling all within sight of the series' climax, but it would have severely detracted from the heroic opportunities of the protagonists. It is not a tale about the SKs; they are related to the events going on, but they are not the ones that will ultimately settle it... and Denning follows convention here by not letting the obviously more powerful sorcerer-kings steal the show.
Imagine if, for example, Gandalf had just cast wish to put the One Ring in the fires of Mount Doom. Sure, he probably COULD have done it in terms of his power, but it makes for a really droll and decidedly non-epic story compared with the quest of Frodo. Similarly, the SKs COULD have flung destructive magics left and right, just as they could have squashed the heroes of Tyr had they so chosen (and not been in need of them with a much bigger threat), but it would not make for a very pleasing story or conclusion in comparison with the heroes of Tyr doing something insanely heroic.
easiest way around it that I would see would be to grant her the following when the sun is up..... it completes the rules as well as gives her the abilities without even allowing sorcerers into the game:
while the sun is up she gains the following:
Most of which is in the template I created. ;)
"The main reason I discount such free acess to magic for the SKs is that no such powers are mentioned anywhere, nor are any examples of such powers being used. Sadria's example is the opposite. The PP specifically states her case. In addition game sources say she is unique."
It is very true. Of course, one may make somewhat weak counters, such as that, if the SMs were limited in their return of spells as normal mages, they certainly chose the spells they memorized wisely, for they use a significant breadth of them during the Ur Draxa affair, and also seem to have been bold enough to come to the battle against the heroes and later Rajaat and company without the backup of spell scrolls and magical and psionic items. Of course this does not really prove anything, but perhaps it is worth considering.
I find particularly fascinating your thoughts on the "sun" element in this debate, oralpain. Certainly you have several points worth consideration there, and indeed, would Rajaat have created champions whose powers were dependant upon the rising of the sun?
We shall hopefully conclude the matter soon.
Thanks for your input.
We are all aware that, at least in the game adventure modules and campaign supplements, the sorcerer-kings, and that means champions, seem to require spellbooks and study time to replenish their spells (for more detailed information regarding these instances, see my addendum below). In this however there lies a somewhat considerable problem, a problem which I and others have brought up before elsewhere, but one which certainly is deserving of its own thread.
Sadira, the famous enchantress and gonfalonier of Athas.org, once possessed of the powers of the Steeple of Crystals, no longer requires, when the sun is upon her, to memorize spells:
During the day, when she was imbued with the sun's power, Sadira could shape her magic with little more than a thought. But at night, she was like any other sorceress. She could use only spells whose mystic runes she had impressed on her mind through hours of rigorous study. Unfortunately, speaking an enchantment's incantation erased its runes from the mind, so the caster could not use the spell a second time until she studied it again.
(CS, 287)
If this is so, then must we assume that the champions have the same ability, which is, again, to cast spells without recourse to spellbooks and study?
No.
I figure if Sadira runs around the world following the sunlight, she'll expend her spells per day, and won't get them back without 8 (or 12) hours of rest, just like a sorceror, and it's 8 hours, or sunrise, whichever occurrs "later". (after all, what if she stood at one of the poles where it could be daylight for 6 months of the year).
And I figure her template grants her a level 18 as a sorceror, but that level is unaffected by her wizard levels...
Also, as for the Sorceror kings.. it's said they hord their magic, right? These guys are trying to push forth their metamorphosis... what does hording magic have to do with that?? Well, what if when "they" were turned into prenatal-dragons, they had their wizard levels convirted to sorceror by rajaat... (think of that one psionic power that lets you rewite your character, now put that into an epic power or spell). If these guys are selected by Rajaat to destroy a particular race, he could give them each spells that are best suited to their purposes.. also, there are many spells that are very flexible.. (Illusions for one, as well as many transformation spells and conjurations). These all fit the Sorceror King style of magic.. yet if they each have Limitted or full on Wish spells.. they could use those for unusual circumstances. But wouldn't doing so cost XP?? And isn't XP a primary requirement to furthering the metamorphosis?? (Magic item creafting, epic level spellcasting, etc). So magic must be used wisely.. not relying upon those expensive wish spells, especially when those XP may be hard to win back at epic levels.. (asside from going to war with your neighbor :P) But that would also explain a SK making a royal defiler to do his will.. And time could always be spent studying an Epic spell or item to do what they wish..
Basically, I don't see the SK's as being portraied with the type of "I have a spell for anything" mentality that you'd see on other worlds with long lived casters... (FR/DL??) the SK's seem a bit more... structured... so I say, make them Sorcerors, grant them a few bonus spells through feats if you wish, and let them be easily managed that way.. (Gee, sorceror-kings that are actually sorcerors... wow) :P
(Gee, sorceror-kings that are actually sorcerors... wow) :P
Or maybe even sorcerers.
[Funny thing, you have it right in your signature though!]
"The main reason I discount such free acess to magic for the SKs is that no such powers are mentioned anywhere, nor are any examples of such powers being used. Sadria's example is the opposite. The PP specifically states her case. In addition game sources say she is unique."
It is very true. Of course, one may make somewhat weak counters, such as that, if the SMs were limited in their return of spells as normal mages, they certainly chose the spells they memorized wisely, for they use a significant breadth of them during the Ur Draxa affair, and also seem to have been bold enough to come to the battle against the heroes and later Rajaat and company without the backup of spell scrolls and magical and psionic items. Of course this does not really prove anything, but perhaps it is worth considering.
I find particularly fascinating your thoughts on the "sun" element in this debate, oralpain. Certainly you have several points worth consideration there, and indeed, would Rajaat have created champions whose powers were dependant upon the rising of the sun?
We shall hopefully conclude the matter soon.
Thanks for your input.
This has less to do with the actual abilities of the sorcerer-kings and more to do with observing literary convention in a heroic epic like the Pentad. Sure, the SKs COULD have gone around slinging spells left and right and defiling all within sight of the series' climax, but it would have severely detracted from the heroic opportunities of the protagonists. It is not a tale about the SKs; they are related to the events going on, but they are not the ones that will ultimately settle it... and Denning follows convention here by not letting the obviously more powerful sorcerer-kings steal the show.
Imagine if, for example, Gandalf had just cast wish to put the One Ring in the fires of Mount Doom. Sure, he probably COULD have done it in terms of his power, but it makes for a really droll and decidedly non-epic story compared with the quest of Frodo. Similarly, the SKs COULD have flung destructive magics left and right, just as they could have squashed the heroes of Tyr had they so chosen (and not been in need of them with a much bigger threat), but it would not make for a very pleasing story or conclusion in comparison with the heroes of Tyr doing something insanely heroic.
I do my best to reconcile the events of the PP (which I consider as canon as possible for a set of novels) with the game material. Therefore, in my view there should be some logical explanation for the actions, and limitations, of the sorcerer kings that goes beyond the literary conventions of making a heroic epic.
I do my best to reconcile the events of the PP (which I consider as canon as possible for a set of novels) with the game material. Therefore, in my view there should be some logical explanation for the actions, and limitations, of the sorcerer kings that goes beyond the literary conventions of making a heroic epic.
While I respect such attempts at rationalization, and I do in fact agree that the PP is about as canon as one can get, I cannot help but feel that the conclusion of the PP is blatantly illogical in and of itself. Therefore, it is kind of pointless to try to apply logic to it. Certainly we can speculate and say "well, maybe" until we are blue in the face (or fingers in this case), but that's all we are left with in the end: speculation.
On that note, in terms of logic, the ending is completely impossible. Essentially, the closest thing to a god on Athas is completely unable to be defeated by the most powerful beings on Athas, yet is fairly easily defeated by a half-elven woman and a small child. Absurd? Yes. Mythologically significant, pleasing, and possible? Of course.
Logically, if some of the oldest and deadliest beings on Athas, infinitely more powerful and ancient than the heroes of Tyr, cannot so much as harm this ultimate evil, what chance would mere mortals, especially five-year-old children and slave-born half-breeds, possibly have? It defies all logic in a manner that is blatantly mythical, specifically in terms of the hero myth conventions to which Denning is conforming in his own heroic fantasy.
One could argue "well, but Rajaat created the sorcerer-kings and knows what to expect, so he is impervious to them but not to Sadira because he doesn't know what to expect from her," but this doesn't really hold up because his servants, the Shadow Giants, created Sadira as well... and are still able to converse with Rajaat (and therefore detail the creation of Sadira, which was possibly Rajaat's plan all along as insinuated by Lynn Abbey, among others).
Furthermore, the sorcerer-kings, having already battled Rajaat once, would likely realize that their powers are useless... and in that you have one possible "logical" explanation, but it's still just a literary tactic on Denning's part to keep the sorcerer-kings from stealing the limelight. Again, logically, if they can't harm Rajaat, then how can Sadira possibly hope to? Why would the Shadow Giants create something that is BETTER able to defeat their master than their master's own creations? Even this potential logical explanation leads to illogic.
The bottom line is that there isn't going to be a satisfactory reconciliation between EVERYTHING in the Pentad and any given game system. The literary conventions are extremely important, and in fact CAN be an end in and of themselves because Denning was certainly NOT writing every single aspect of the Pentad with explicit D&D mechanics in mind... he was trying to tell a good story. There really ISN'T a game mechanics reason why the SKs didn't do anything in the end of the PP... just like there are no game mechanics reasons why they couldn't harm Rajaat. We are never given any such things in the official material... a lot of the PP is reconciled with fluff, not game mechanics.
So what?
I've seen similarly "absurd" events happen in actual high-level game play, with experienced and competent DMs and Players. Raw, potential power and statistics are far from everything. And even the oldest, wisest beings are capable of slipping up.
Regardless, the remaining Sorcerer King's have learned a difficult and embarassing lesson. They will not be making such mistakes again.
Removing all possibility for foolishness/absurdity is absurd in the opposite direction.
Furthermore, the sorcerer-kings, having already battled Rajaat once, would likely realize that their powers are useless... and in that you have one possible "logical" explanation, but it's still just a literary tactic on Denning's part to keep the sorcerer-kings from stealing the limelight. Again, logically, if they can't harm Rajaat, then how can Sadira possibly hope to? Why would the Shadow Giants create something that is BETTER able to defeat their master than their master's own creations? Even this potential logical explanation leads to illogic.
Well we could have 2 ways to rationalize this:
1) The traitor: the Shadow Giants meaned to create something that is BETTER able to defeat their master than their master's own creations
'cause the wanted him to be defeated,
May be someone wanted to remain Shadow Giants?
2) The Twisted Plot: It was all part of a complex plot of Rajaat to create the Cerulean Storm as a component for a more complex ritual...
What if it was all part of a HUGE mitigating factor for a DC 500+ epic spell?
The Twisted Plot: It was all part of a complex plot of Rajaat to create the Cerulean Storm as a component for a more complex ritual...
To be honest, I would tend to agree with this. Rajaat let himself be defeated for some unnamed greater purpose... just like he had Sadira transformed for some greater reason. He really doesn't have much else to do in the Black apart from scheme and plot... and he's supremely intelligent with a LOT of time on his hands. However, there's no "official" explanation, so it really could be anything.
EDIT: Fixed quote box
I can come pretty close to the reconciliation I want. The sorcerer kings could have easily done something similar to what young Rikard did...if they had thought of it. Rajaat could easily have prevented his defeat, if he had taken the threat seriously.
That's what I'm trying to say... pretty close is about as good as one can expect in some cases. I still believe that Denning had Rkard and Sadira defeat Rajaat for literary reasons, which is the point I am trying to make.
Foolish, even absurd mistakes, abount in the PP.
So what?
...
Removing all possibility for foolishness/absurdity is absurd in the opposite direction.
You're missing the point as well as putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about removing the possibility of foolishness... instead, I was merely pointing out that such "foolishness" and logic-defying acts are a reflection of the employment of literary convention by Denning. The storytelling defies logic for the sole purpose of telling a good story on a mythical scale. This was in response to your claim that literary convention is not a good reason for the SKs to have refrained from action. Whatever rationalization one might wish to employ, it's really never going to be the "right" one, or even a universally satisfactory one, because Denning was certainly thinking about telling a good story first, then about how the mechanics would work out (more than likely, he wasn't thinking about the mechanics at all by that point in the PP).
Raw, potential power and statistics are far from everything. And even the oldest, wisest beings are capable of slipping up.
Agreed... and that's what I'm arguing. It would logically be that way, but it isn't because of the mythical stature of the story. Furthermore, given this concession, why does there even need to be a mechanical reason for the sorcerer-kings not casting spells in the closing of the Pentad? Wouldn't it just be enough to say that they could have and chose not to? That would be quite a slip-up in my mind... being able to unleash power and just not doing it.
Furthermore, given this concession, why does there even need to be a mechanical reason for the sorcerer-kings not casting spells in the closing of the Pentad? Wouldn't it just be enough to say that they could have and chose not to? That would be quite a slip-up in my mind... being able to unleash power and just not doing it.
You could apply the same logic used in the adventure Dregoth Ascending to the events at the end of PP. The PCs are sent by the SKs to stop Dregoth instead of going themselves.Admittdly, this seems odd at first, but the SKs reasoning is that they (Nibenay, Hamanu, and Lalali-Puy) could go and no doubt take down the undead dragon king, but the ramifications of four epic level defiler/champion/dragons slinging around spells would be catastrophic to the already fragile and volatile Tyr region to handle.
Under this assumption, imagine the massive devastation that seven SKs would have wrought on Athas at large if they engaged Rajaat by casting their most powerful magics and manifesting the sickest of powers. <>
You could apply the same logic used in the adventure Dregoth Ascending to the events at the end of PP. The PCs are sent by the SKs to stop Dregoth instead of going themselves.Admittdly, this seems odd at first, but the SKs reasoning is that they (Nibenay, Hamanu, and Lalali-Puy) could go and no doubt take down the undead dragon king, but the ramifications of four epic level defiler/champion/dragons slinging around spells would be catastrophic to the already fragile and volatile Tyr region to handle.
Exactly. It's not a mechanical reason, it's a fluff reason... with the express purpose of providing a heroic opportunity to the protagonists. The storyteller/DM can't simply say "the SKs can't go because this isn't their story" (well, they COULD say that, but that would not be very pleasing). In this case, there would not be an adventure at all if the SKs handled the situation... which would be no fun for Dark Sun players. The main reason for keeping the sorcerer-kings inactive is to provide for heroic opportunity for the protagonists of the given story. Any secondary reasons are merely fluff to preserve the sense of verisimilitude in the story... which is especially important in a fantasy world.
Under this assumption, imagine the massive devastation that seven SKs would have wrought on Athas at large if they engaged Rajaat by casting their most powerful magics and manifesting the sickest of powers. <>
Logically, though, which is the worse option for the sorcerer-kings: wreaking havoc on Athas and preserving the status quo, or doing nothing and allowing Rajaat to kill them and restore Athas to the Blue Age? From the SK point of view, it's absurd to do NOTHING. Again, it's merely a literary convention to provide for heroic opportunity... whatever secondary reason is provided is just fluff.
That's what I'm trying to say... pretty close is about as good as one can expect in some cases. I still believe that Denning had Rkard and Sadira defeat Rajaat for literary reasons, which is the point I am trying to make.
Troy pretty much admitted as much.
Furthermore, given this concession, why does there even need to be a mechanical reason for the sorcerer-kings not casting spells in the closing of the Pentad? Wouldn't it just be enough to say that they could have and chose not to? That would be quite a slip-up in my mind... being able to unleash power and just not doing it.
It is much less a slip up than Troy couldn't or wasn't skilled enough to describe such an epic battle. We was trying to wrap up the story showing that the "PC heroes" could change the world, and everything in the series and setting was building up to that fact. Troy has said if he could do it over again he would write the ending differently so that the dragon-kings didn't look like mooks.
The novel department (who Troy Denning was working for at the time he wrote the book) and the RPG department were kept apart from each other. He wrote the story without ever seeing the rules Dragon Kings for epic Dark Sun characters. He wrote the story without ever seeing the sourcebook that became Valley of Dust and Fire. Amazingly! He didn't even know someone was writing that accessory for where his final book was going to. He had to dramatically change the ending after his first draft was submitted because what he described for Ur Draxa was different than Richard Baker's. He had no rules in mind, everything was a story. He didn't know what abilities the dragon-kings were going to get in rules.
Even without involving game mechanics or "literary reasons" there's really no way to justify - or refute - the reasons why an S-K or even Rajaat himself would do or not do something. There's just too large of a gap between how they think and how any of us can think to guess what it is they're actually thinking.
Of course this is from a "they're real!" standpoint. I agree that the whole thing played out as it did to make a good story, otherwise. ;)
Troy pretty much admitted as much.
It is much less a slip up than Troy couldn't or wasn't skilled enough to describe such an epic battle. We was trying to wrap up the story showing that the "PC heroes" could change the world, and everything in the series and setting was building up to that fact. Troy has said if he could do it over again he would write the ending differently so that the dragon-kings didn't look like mooks.
Yeah, I recall reading that in an interview (or possible multiple interviews) with Troy... it might've even been your interview, but I don't recall which one specifically
. That's my whole point, though: that he was just doing what he did for literary reasons, with no attention being paid to game mechanics.The novel department (who Troy Denning was working for at the time he wrote the book) and the RPG department were kept apart from each other. He wrote the story without ever seeing the rules Dragon Kings for epic Dark Sun characters. He wrote the story without ever seeing the sourcebook that became Valley of Dust and Fire. Amazingly! He didn't even know someone was writing that accessory for where his final book was going to. He had to dramatically change the ending after his first draft was submitted because what he described for Ur Draxa was different than Richard Baker's. He had no rules in mind, everything was a story. He didn't know what abilities the dragon-kings were going to get in rules.
That is kind of surprising, but not altogether unexpected. The miscommunication between the two departments of TSR at that time are well-publicized. Still, it's kind of surprising that Troy had no idea about Dragon Kings, given that he and Tim Brown had conceptualized that from the beginning. I guess it makes sense that he didn't have any idea of the specifics mechanically.
I just feel that trying to rationalize the novels with game mechanics is awkward. It's not an altogether fruitless endeavor, as it does have some merit, but it feels like a forced marriage to me.
... after all, no one really stands up to them to begin with, and after the death of both Kalak and Lalai-Puy (er...that's who Sadira killed w/ the Scourge-shard, right?)
It was Abalach-Re.
It's amazing what a macguffin... er, artifact... can do!
Even without involving game mechanics or "literary reasons" there's really no way to justify - or refute - the reasons why an S-K or even Rajaat himself would do or not do something. There's just too large of a gap between how they think and how any of us can think to guess what it is they're actually thinking.
Of course this is from a "they're real!" standpoint. I agree that the whole thing played out as it did to make a good story, otherwise. ;)
Agreed. That's why I said in my earlier post that it's all just speculation. We can't really prove or disprove any theory as to their motives. Regardless of their motives, though, it really is just a literary tactic to keep the focus on the protagonists.
(I want a WWa5kYOCoSPD? bracelet...)
HAHA! You and me both, my friend! :D
I never intended to contest the fact that Denning had events play out as they did for literary reasons. A good story is going to be the goal of most any novel. I'm just saying the apparent flaws are reasonably easy to make workable in a game context as well, even if plausibility is a priority.
I agree with that as well, either from the standpoint of "they follow the athas.org 3.5e rules" or "they're sorcerers, not wizards" or "they start recovering spells every X minutes." In any of those instances, they were all worried/pretty sure that they'd be going up against Rajaat pretty soon, so I can see many in-game reasons to have "held back" on spells:
- they were fighting characters that were a lot lower level than them, and so (game mechanic-wise) should have been easily defeated without expending any of their "big guns"
- even if they recovered spells every 10 minutes or so, they probably didn't know exactly how long they had until their fight with Rajaat...and the difference between 1 or 2 9th+ level spells could have made the difference between a win or loss.
- They knew that Rikus was immune to most of what they could do, so sent Hamanu after him; that part is easy. As for the others, they probably didn't know what Sadira was really capable of, and so didn't want to waste expensive spells/psionics that might have been ineffective.
- They may very well have expended spells and psionics up to this point, either for travelling, communication spells/psionics to coordinate things, protective spells and powers, etc. These *are* paranoid individuals, after all.
- There's the XP issue with wishes and the like that has been pointed out; you can only cast so many of them, and again, with Rajaat on the horizon, expending precious wishes on a group of much less potent characters is somewhat of a waste.
- ...especially when wishes, meteor swarms and the like are not (in 3.5e at least) "instant win" spells; everyone can roll a 20 on a save, or a 1 on a caster level check, etc. ...nothing is a given.
I'm probably thinking about this too much. *le sigh*
Such said, I think Dirk made some excellent points in his most recent posts regarding why the SKs might not have blasted the Heroes out of a existence as simply a matter of course. Indeed, they are not "all powerful" in my view, and speaking from experience, I myself as a DM in another campaign setting have a player who actually, by the rules, over the course of 6 years of play, leveled up a 20th level 2nd edition militant wizard, who with a 16 intelligence can only cast up to 8th level spells... and I can tell you he is extremely judicious with his expenditure of spells, frequently preferring to use his sword. He is especially conservative with regards to his higher level spells (7th-8th) level, being paranoid that me might need them for an even greater opponent in the near future, and thus in effect rarely using them at all in combat situations. As far as spells go, the SMs in Dark Sun, only a few levels higher than my player, would almost certainly use their magic rather coservatively, even if we give them the spell "regeneration" that Sadira possesses. And indeed, my 20th level player has a whole array of stolen spell scrolls (which he is also paranoid to use, for fear he might need them later), and the SMs in the Cerulean Storm demonstrate that they seem to have none, which would make them even more conservative with their magic expenditure... As oralpain mentions, high level and super-intelligent PCs, NPCs and monsters can make mistakes... being a genius in one thing does not mean you are a master tactician etc.
All this and similar points considered, it would seem not terribly useful or even logical to mark the SMs conservative use of spells in the CS as an argument in favor of the idea that the SMs must memorize their spells as would any other normal mage. Indeed, to me, especially since they seem to boldly enter the fray without scrolls (although of course they may have scrolls in reserve in undisclosed bags of holding and the like), it is almost necessary to conjecture for points of logic that they have an ability akin to Sadira's spell regeneration, although of course it seems rather impossible to authoritatively conclude this.
As to "wishes" as spells in DS, I prescribe to the option put forth in Dragon Kings that "wishes" simply do not exist in Dark Sun, at the very least not in the normal sense. Indeed, there is no direct and observable use of these spells in the Prism Pentad, although occasionally some of the game supplements mention that they could be used by the SKs (such as by Hamanu perhaps in Dragon's Crown). This is me however, as indeed, Dragon Kings both clearly and wisely specifies this interpretation of Dark Sun "wishes" as optional.
As to these Denning interviews, can anyone supply links to these? I am trying to collate a stable list of these, in the hopes that perhaps, if anyone knows how to, Denning might be contacted and interrogated again.
As errata to some comments made earlier in this thread, Dirk made an excellent series of points regarding how Rajaat and the SKs may act very differently then we might suppose they would have.
On another related matter, I must rather vehemently disagree with those who have recently opined that Rajaat might have deliberately been defeated in the CS. Denning stresses what we might simply conclude as Rajaat's extraordinary megalomania upon his emancipation from the Hollow. He seems to hardly even use his wizardly abilities, drawing almost completely upon his obscene elemental abilities, which do not require the usual spell gestures, material components or even mystic phrases. He passively tosses even Sadira aside, just before this even preferring to squeeze her to death rather than blow her apart with spell or that Way, which, certainly, he very easily could have done (her rudimentary psionic defenses, as taught to her by Agis, could not possibly have withstood an onslaught by Rajaat, who I gage in 2nd edition terms as 40th level, or perhaps even higher (45th?)). In another instance, he instantly entraps the SMs in impermeable "bubbles" with the greatest of ease, out of which the SMs seem unable to free themselves (such would be the highest order of magic...), yet even still is rather lackidaisical in destroying them. Indeed, he does not teleport after Sadira when she takes the Dark Lens, as he certainly could do, nor does he blow her apart with a spell, as he also likely could do (at the very least he could have slowed her down). Instead he plods after her. Indeed, it seems to me that Denning envisioned Rajaat as being a truly megalomaniacal being who had imagined, in his prison, a rather exact vengeance and return of the Blue Age, and does not even seem to really consider that he could be stopped, giving only slight concern even to his former champions. He was careless in his supreme confidence, and certainly paid the penalty for it.
That is enough for now.
Happy darksunning.
Indeed, they are not "all powerful" in my view, and speaking from experience ... As oralpain mentions, high level and super-intelligent PCs, NPCs and monsters can make mistakes... being a genius in one thing does not mean you are a master tactician etc.
In my 2e DS game I had a bunch of 12th-ish multiclass characters go up against Andropinis, a bunch of his soldiers, and some of his high-up templars and defilers and such. Granted my game (and hence group) was overpowered; I used an location system (as I still do in 3e), which basically means that a PC can take about 3x as much damage as normal (due to different locations being hit, how I work area-of-effect spells, etc.), and I also had a persistent stat-increase system in place (every stat had % attached to it, like an 18 Strength, and depending on class you'd add a certain % to each stat every level...so it meant your 'primary' stats would go up about every 4 or 5 levels or so). At any rate, I didn't hold back on statting out Andy, but the way I set up the encounter (it was the "end game" of a 2-year campaign) there were all sorts of unknowns - both by Andy as well as the PCs - that gave the group a fighting chance (they had an intelligent artifact weapon with antimagic shell capabilities, the room they were in blocked extradimensional travel into or out of it, and some other things). In the end the group was trashed, but they not only won but actually managed to kill Andropinis without me fudging any 2e rules...it was a matter of good teamwork, using their abilities to their fullest (such as keeping the AM-field on Andy as much as possible), etc.
In my current 3.5e game (still overpowered, but then again 3e is all-'round more easily abused than 2e IMO) I just had a group of low-epic (21st-24th) level characters take on the Dragon (statted out at CR 60-65ish). They could barely do anything to him and there was no way in Hell they were going to kill him, but even with his retardedly high power points, number of spells, etc. they were able to wear him down enough - over the course of many PC deaths - that it was no longer worth his effort to try and "win"; the paranoia and low spells/PPs crept in where, if the group had been concealing some "secret weapon" he would have lost...so he basically called it a draw, gave the PCs what they wanted (big story arc) but made off with enough of his own "goodies" that he won as well. And again, that was following (for the most part) normal rules, just with "more" HP and better stats on the PC side than normal.
The point here is to back up those that have said "just because you're super-powerful doesn't mean you're invulnerable to those below you" - enough ants can take down the largest animal.
As to "wishes" as spells in DS, I prescribe to the option put forth in Dragon Kings that "wishes" simply do not exist in Dark Sun, at the very least not in the normal sense. Indeed, there is no direct and observable use of these spells in the Prism Pentad, although occasionally some of the game supplements mention that they could be used by the SKs (such as by Hamanu perhaps in Dragon's Crown). This is me however, as indeed, Dragon Kings both clearly and wisely specifies this interpretation of Dark Sun "wishes" as optional.
In 3.5e I leave wishes and the like in as, at high levels, I consider them essential to "keeping the balance" - since 1 crappy die roll can spell instant death for the greatest Epic character, I feel it only appropriate that 1 spell should be able to "reverse" that bad luck. I run my wishes exactly as stated in the book - they're limited to duplicating spells or specific other effects, and I've warned the players that if they try to do anything "unique" with them I'll do everyhting in my power to distort what they wish for and destroy their PCs. So far it's worked out, allowing the wizard and psion to "resurrect" the cleric (who would otherwise be lost), or heal the entire group of damage...but that's literally been about it. Not overpowering at all, and in fact a necessity for the kind of abuse I throw the PC's way.
On another related matter, I must rather vehemently disagree with those who have recently opined that Rajaat might have deliberately been defeated in the CS. Denning stresses what we might simply conclude as Rajaat's extraordinary megalomania upon his emancipation from the Hollow. ... Indeed, it seems to me that Denning envisioned Rajaat as being a truly megalomaniacal being who had imagined, in his prison, a rather exact vengeance and return of the Blue Age, and does not even seem to really consider that he could be stopped, giving only slight concern even to his former champions. He was careless in his supreme confidence, and certainly paid the penalty for it.
Absolutely! That's the same reasoning I have for Rajaat, more or less, although you definitely did a better job of elucidating it. He's a completely insane, godlike, chaotic evil entity - the thought of a "measly mortal" doing *anything* to him probably never even crossed his mind, and I'm guessing he's completely incapable of even thinking something like that. Same goes for the "deliberately defeated" idea; after 2k years of plotting his revenge, knowing what his enemies were going to attempt to do (as shown by how he changed his form, basically negating their old method of trapping him), it was all a game to him, a big entertaining show for his own amusement and to strike the utmost fear into his former pupils before he punished each and every one of them. He was taking his time as, from his standpoint, he had all the time in the world - in the end he *knew* the Blue Age would be returned this time, he *knew* that the S-M's would all be punished in their own unique way, and he wanted to make sure that they got to think about what was going to happen to them before it happened.
The point here is to back up those that have said "just because you're super-powerful doesn't mean you're invulnerable to those below you" - enough ants can take down the largest animal.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is not the case. You are absolutely correct in this assertion, and if I made it sound like this should NOT be the case, then I apologize for poorly articulating my stance. What I am trying to say, however, is that it should definitely not be easy by any means... it should be nearly impossible, but in heroic fantasy nothing is REALLY impossible (for good storytelling reasons, among others
). I just feel that the PP's climax seemed a bit too easy, and I was not completely satisfied by it. (On that note, I was glad to hear Mr. Anondson's comment about how Denning himself was not really satisfied with it and would do it completely differently if he had it to do over again.)Absolutely! That's the same reasoning I have for Rajaat, more or less, although you definitely did a better job of elucidating it. He's a completely insane, godlike, chaotic evil entity - the thought of a "measly mortal" doing *anything* to him probably never even crossed his mind, and I'm guessing he's completely incapable of even thinking something like that. Same goes for the "deliberately defeated" idea; after 2k years of plotting his revenge, knowing what his enemies were going to attempt to do (as shown by how he changed his form, basically negating their old method of trapping him), it was all a game to him, a big entertaining show for his own amusement and to strike the utmost fear into his former pupils before he punished each and every one of them. He was taking his time as, from his standpoint, he had all the time in the world - in the end he *knew* the Blue Age would be returned this time, he *knew* that the S-M's would all be punished in their own unique way, and he wanted to make sure that they got to think about what was going to happen to them before it happened.
This is also a possibility, and the case is pretty well supported... however, the other stance can be equally well-supported ... we don't have any definite answer due to a lack of hard evidence. No doubt that Rajaat's true intentions are kept vague on purpose, "just in case" they need to use him again later in the story (which would be a bad idea in my opinion). Both of the stances presented in this thread, as well as a number of others no doubt, are plausible. Basically, I guess it comes down to whatever works best in the context of a given campaign.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is not the case. You are absolutely correct in this assertion, and if I made it sound like this should NOT be the case, then I apologize for poorly articulating my stance. What I am trying to say, however, is that it should definitely not be easy by any means... it should be nearly impossible, but in heroic fantasy nothing is REALLY impossible (for good storytelling reasons, among others
I was actually just "backing up" what phaaf had said, I wasn't even thinking about your or anyone else's responses (well, not consciously at least) when I posted this. I don't think I disagree with anything you've said (heh unless I said previously that I did...but my brain still hasn't woken up and I'm fighting off a cold to boot, so 'clear thinking' isn't coming easily to me today ;)), I'm just more for the "other" side of the argument is all. This isn't really a topic where I have strong feelings about either side - in the end, as you said at the end of your reply, it really does boil down to "what's best for your campaign?"
This is also a possibility, and the case is pretty well supported... however, the other stance can be equally well-supported ... we don't have any definite answer due to a lack of hard evidence. No doubt that Rajaat's true intentions are kept vague on purpose, "just in case" they need to use him again later in the story (which would be a bad idea in my opinion). Both of the stances presented in this thread, as well as a number of others no doubt, are plausible. Basically, I guess it comes down to whatever works best in the context of a given campaign.
I do disagree with this; the only real support we have for Rajaat at all expecting, and preparing for, another "loss" is from Abbey's work (AFAIK)...and even Penn, who likes to incorporate as much of her work as possible into "DS Canon" acknowledges that you've got to take most of what she wrote with a grain of salt as far as using it for justifications of things (...please correct me if I'm wrong here, Penn; don't want to put words into your mouth). Yes, all stances work, but I don't think each has the same weight; I can't disagree that the author(s) and/or Rajaat himself didn't have a "contingency plan" involving his re-defeat, but I do think there's a lot more, and better, evidence to support the idea that the thought of failure never crossed his mind.
I do disagree with this; the only real support we have for Rajaat at all expecting, and preparing for, another "loss" is from Abbey's work (AFAIK)...and even Penn, who likes to incorporate as much of her work as possible into "DS Canon" acknowledges that you've got to take most of what she wrote with a grain of salt as far as using it for justifications of things (...please correct me if I'm wrong here, Penn; don't want to put words into your mouth). Yes, all stances work, but I don't think each has the same weight; I can't disagree that the author(s) and/or Rajaat himself didn't have a "contingency plan" involving his re-defeat, but I do think there's a lot more, and better, evidence to support the idea that the thought of failure never crossed his mind.
I'm not personally advocating Rajaat purposefully losing as part of some greater plan... rather, I guess I'm just playing devil's advocate here :p. I do believe that both are plausible, but I personally would like to think that it's a combination of the two somewhere in between. Rajaat really did underestimate the heroes, and for that he was defeated... but, being a supremely intelligent megalomaniacal godlike figure, he most CERTAINLY had a contingency plan or ten.
I guess the real problem I have with all of this underestimating is that it seems like way too much. For every single powerful and ancient being to underestimate the heroes so much is not very pleasing to me... one does not live long on Athas by underestimating things so much, at least not in my view. It's certainly possible, and fairly plausible, but it just doesn't seem sufficient for me. Maybe I'm thinking about it too much. I still hold to my original literary interpretation of things, and think that the climax of the Pentad occurred the way it did because Denning was not exactly sure how to write such an epic battle in the best way possible.
He knows just how powerful Borys is, he might even think Borys is more powerful then he really is and be afraid of becomming trapped again if there remained a full dragon running about. To kill Borys he instructs his servents to power Sadira by the sun itself. This has two effects as far as Rajaat is concerned. It is the only force powerful enough that can be tapped and both have a chance to take out Borys and be controllable - the sun goes down, she loses her powers.
One must also remember that when Rajaat was defeated he was a Pryeen. Very powerful yes, but he was a living, breathing entity who had lived his entire life as such and knew what he was capable of. Once he was seperated from his body he never really got a chance to know his ability in a physical form. It's entirely possible he didn't know or understand what his physical form could be defeated by.