http://www.tekumel.com/images/world/comparison_tekumel.jpg
Would be cool to see something similar for Mystara, or the Known World. *looks at the talented mappers out there..*
Håvard
Linky, linky......
http://www.mythosa.net/World.html#Maps
--Ray.
I especially like the one with the climatic zones, which is one thing I miss when looking at our own world of Mystara, maybe we should have Thorf or some of the other mapophiles do a similar thing for the greater Known World. :D
If my calculations are correct, the Known World (defined as the region of land and islands on the original known world map) is about the size of the eastern half of the USA.
My calculations are a little different, and give the Known World (including the countries of GAZs1-14, continental Thyatis, the Thanegioth archipelago, the Sea of Dread Islands, Sind, Wendar and the Heldannic Territories) a surface of 2.288.524 square kilometres (883.982 square miles), i.e. about a quarter of Europe or a quarter of the United States - rather small indeed!
The KW area would be more or less comparable to a RW area including all western Europe from Portugal to Czech Republic, Slovenia, Deutchland, Austria and Denmark, with the addition of the british isle up to the latitude of Newcastle.
Moreover, beware of the numbers given in the PWAs, as most of them are wrong.
I've had to remake by myself many calculations about countries' surfaces to get the REAL numbers. ;)I dont have a problem with the KW countries being so small, when you look at RW medieval countries. Ofcourse what makes it a bit funny is that their cultures are so distinctly separate, but that just helps making each country more interesting, although admittedly at the cost of some realism.
I liked seeing that site for Mythosa. I would love to see something like that for Mystara!
Håvard
Thanks for the data Zendrolion!
You're welcome, Havard!
Actually, becouse of the "Mystaran Demography" project we're bringing on at the Italian MMB, I've remade correct (I hope :P ) surface calculations for every KW country and Norwold. If someone is interested I can post the results here.
I dont have a problem with the KW countries being so small, when you look at RW medieval countries.
Right, neither do I. ;)
And, as you anticipated, medieval cultures were much less "uniform" within what today we consider a "nation's" borders. For example, Spain had at least five or six different cultures within its peninsula, and the same could be more or less true for Italy and the Balkans. ;)
Las but not least, I remember a comparison map of Aebrynis (Birthright's world) with our Earth, but I don't know if it's found anymore on www.birthright.net.
You're welcome, Havard!
Actually, becouse of the "Mystaran Demography" project we're bringing on at the Italian MMB, I've remade correct (I hope :P ) surface calculations for every KW country and Norwold. If someone is interested I can post the results here.
I would certainly appreciate that.
I would certainly appreciate that.
Ok, here are my calculations (km2 = square kilometres, m2 = square miles). The surfaces indicated for underground areas are approximations. The numbers in kilometres should be rather correct, but some of those listed in miles could have suffered a slight distortion during the conversion from kilometres to miles. ;)
KNOWN wORLD = 2.886.524 km2 (1,114,970 m2)
Alfheim = 63.075 km2 (24,363 m2)
Atruaghin Lands[1] = 180.866 km2 (69,863 m2)
Broken Lands[2] = 40.022 km2 (15,459 m2)
Darokin (not including Orclands) = 220.763 km2 (85,274 m2)
Ethengar = 208.220 km2 (80,429 m2)
Five Shires = 36.824 km2 (14,224 m2)
Glantri[3] = 326.587 km2 (126,150 m2)
Heldannic Territories[4] = 153.845 km2 (59,425 m2)
Ierendi = 45.288 km2 (17,493 m2)
Jaibul = 25.954 km2 (10,025 m2)
Karameikos = 102.617 km2 (39,638 m2)
Minrothad = 21.022 km2 (8,120 m2)
Orclands = 35.960 km2 (13,890 m2)
Ostland = 25.995 km2 (10,041 m2)
Rockhome[5] = 132.762 km2 (51,282 m2)
Sea of Dread[6] = 47.350 km2 (18,290 m2)
Shadowlands (Shadow Elves' Territories) = 138.548 km2 (53,517 m2)
Sind (not including Jaibul) = 524.832 km2 (202,725 m2)
Soderfjord = 82.260 km2 (31,774 m2)
Thyatis (mainland only) = 161.191 km2 (62,263 m2)
Vestland = 56.214 km2 (21,714 m2)
Wendar = 278.980 km2 (107,761 m2)
Ylaruam = 140.491 km2 (54,267 m2)
[1] Calculated accordingly to Thorf's map.
[2] About another 32.100 km2 lay underground.
[3] Glantri's canon area has been enlarged by the addition of some mountain hexes at the border with Sind and by the hexes that lay between the Principalities and the Adri Varma Plateau, both from CoM map.
[4] The northern and western borders of the Territories have been calculated using X11's (and not WotI's) map.
[5] About another 29.503 km2 lay underground.
[6] Including all isles and keys of the Sea of Dread, up to and including the Thanegioth archipelago, but excluding islands belonging to other KW nations.
NORWOLD[1] = 4.779.074 km2 (1,845,000 m2)
Denagoth = 489.298 km2 (189,000 m2)
Kingdom of Norwold[2] = 1.940.690 km2 (749,625 m2)
Other areas of Norwold[3] = 2.349.086 km2 (907,375 m2)
[1] This region has been described as the whole area that goes from the islands in the White Sea to the norther border of the Heldannic Territories, and from the Alphatian Sea to the Icereach Range included; it includes the whole Denagothian Plateau.
[2] The kingdom's surface area has been calculated using DotE's map.
[3] This area includes Frosthaven, the northern tundras, mountain areas west of Ericall's kingdom and the free lands between the Kingdom of Norwold and the Heldannic Territories.
That's all. Tell me what do you think.
I also did two single Europe country maps for comparison:
France:
These aren't perfect, but good enough for this:
So......as a general rule of thumb, The KW is about the size of central Europe? This would be from the Bay of Biscay to Odessa on the Black Sea and Hamburg, Germany south to the middle of the Mediterranean Sea about 300 miles south of Malta.
I think there are alot of different cultures in those areas of Europe. I finally have a way to defend against the "KW is too small for all of those countries" argument.
--Ray.
;) Nope. Even if you take a KW nation to be homologous to a RW European state in terms of internal diversity (something I'd disagree with - Mystaran countries sometimes include massively unrealitic levels of diversity, such as Glantri and the Broken Lands), then the Known World still is more than twice as diverse as RW Europe.
I have to agree with Ray. Take a look to RW Middle-Age or Renaissance Italy, or to the Balkans area. Any RW modern nation has had its share of subcultures during history; "nation" is only a 19th-century term, something which we are accustomed to use when we define our culture, but things haven't ever gone this way.
In Italy (which is about the same size as Glantri), an inhabitant of Venice shares the same difference from an inhabitant of Sardinia that exists between an Averoignan and a Belcadizan, or even more... That's nothing if you consider that at least five ethnic groups of Glantri have come here with magical means (Kaelics, Averoignans, Anglais, Flaems, Alphatians).
And take a look to old Transylvania, for example: we had at least five or six different cultures in an area which was smaller than Karameikos.
So, what you says is true: the KW is rather small indeed, but this doesn't make it insufficient for the various cultures it hosts. ;)
The REAL problem with the KW lays in the great diversity between cultural levels and technology: you have barbaric or nomad cultures (Atruaghins, Ethengars, humanoids, even Urduks or Ostlanders or Alasiyan nomads) side by side with Renaissance countries like Darokin or Glantri, or with advanced world powers like Thyatis...
In the interests of a good story, I can overlook most of these issues easily. Ethengar and Ylaruam are the only two areas that, to me, present issues at odds with their geographical space. My persobnal solution is to make Ethengar a far larger nation to teh NW of Glantri, and expand teh broken lands north, nd make an orcish nation of nomads there with tunnel links. Ylaruam, I prefer to make that lusher and more urban, downplaying the desert themes.
I find them very useful for visualizing the actual distances of the Known World.
Håvard
very interesting points of view. I had arrived at this conclusion (+/-) but from a very different way and in fact by accident.
I've read once, in a serious place/book, even if i can't remember where, that the origin of the map used for the world of Mystara was our own Earth map, but a very long time ago. Obviously it's well before what we know today but still the continents have drifted enough for showing someting very similar to what we all know.
This is why, i think, it sounds so familiar somewhere.
Sadly i have no fact on this subject, as the article i found was more a discussion than an explanation.
-----
@Rhialto : you say => then the Known World still is more than twice as diverse as RW Europe.
Well, take no offense, but even considering the diversity of the Know World (and without counting the Savage Coast, Alphatia, etc ...) it's the opposite. You should study European country a bit, and you'll quickly see what a mess it is (but anyway, it's more or less the same everywhere) :D
If my calculations are correct, the Known World (defined as the region of land and islands on the original known world map) is about the size of the eastern half of the USA.
I've never try calculating area as you did, but when i look at the world map from the Rule Cyclopedia, and considering this is an Earth map as i said before, you immediatly have an idea of what size the Know World is
For those who don't see the point, consider the Serpent Peninsula (X6 Quagmire ...) has being Florida, etc ...
Hereafter, i've put an image of Mystara on a sphere to better have an idea of how it looks
Personally, I never understood why the map was shrunk, and wouldn't have cared less. As far as my players are concerned, the Known World is too big by itself, not to mention the rest of the planet. Too bad they're heading "inside" in a week or so.
Roger
I suspect that some of the official data doesn't fit together...specifically the shape and size of areas further north (and south...but Davania has less official map coverage)...I mean, the farther you go from the equator, the more narrow the planet is from from east-to-west...so it seems like in some of the hex maps of the northern areas (such as Norwold) some rationalization (stretching hexes or squishing land) would have to be done.
Shane
I suspect that some of the official data doesn't fit together...specifically the shape and size of areas further north (and south...but Davania has less official map coverage)...I mean, the farther you go from the equator, the more narrow the planet is from from east-to-west...so it seems like in some of the hex maps of the northern areas (such as Norwold) some rationalization (stretching hexes or squishing land) would have to be done.
Shane
No need for any such rationalisation towards the poles. One side effect of teh magical field around Mystara is a spacial distortion effect, which is aligned with the planet7s axis of rotation. In effect, teh closer you travel towards the centre of the axis of rotation, the longer it takes to travel in those directions (east and west) that are sympathetic to that axis. the end result is that a hex map remains ideal, and unlike our Earth, it actually makes more sense to project Mystara's surface onto a cylinder, somewhat (though not identical) in the manner of Mercator projection.
All my dreams are
Naahh
I understand what you mean The alchemy in Mystara was such a success that inconsciously you gave at this world the shape of the hit it was
and is still, at least for a few enlighted ones (who said blind !) roaming here and there (who said in limbo !) 
...
Ok, ok, i go back digging on Internet :D
One side effect of teh magical field around Mystara is a spacial distortion effect, which is aligned with the planet7s axis of rotation. In effect, teh closer you travel towards the centre of the axis of rotation, the longer it takes to travel in those directions (east and west) that are sympathetic to that axis.
While I am an advocate of "fantasy science" instead of natural science, the theory that there is a spatial distortion that hinders movement the farther one is from Mystara's equator might be too far out even for me!
it actually makes more sense to project Mystara's surface onto a cylinder, somewhat (though not identical) in the manner of Mercator projection.
I very much like the classic rectangular maps with hexes. One way of projecting the entire surface (outer and inner) of the planet using rectangles would be to simply use a plot map of latitude and longitude (this isn't a "projection" per se, since it's not a mathematical representation of light "projected" through the 3D globe onto a 2D surface). Here's an unprojected map of the Earth for example. For Mystara, this would result in two rectangles, one for the o.w. and one for the HW. The HW rectangle would be smaller than the o.w. rectangle. There's be a squashed pyramid along the top and bottom of each of the two rectangles (for a total of four), representing the lands of the polar openings. The downside of this map is that if hexes were shown, the hexes would need to be stretched along their east-west axes the further they were from the two equators. The hexes would be undistorted at the two equators (outer and inner), and at the two apexes of the polar openings.
Shane
While I am an advocate of "fantasy science" instead of natural science, the theory that there is a spatial distortion that hinders movement the farther one is from Mystara's equator might be too far out even for me!
Shane
You got it wrong. It has nothing to do with Mystara's equator, except (if you'll excuse the pun) tangentially. Imagine a straight line drawn from the centre of teh north polar opening to the centre of the south polar opening. The close you are to that line, the harder it is to travel around that line (movement along that north-south axis is unaffected). the reason this distortion is only effective at the poles is beccause at the poles, you are physically closer to that axis.
The circumference if Mystara is listed as 19,445 miles. Earth is 24,902 miles (40,076 km) around. That provides a size ratio of 1:1.28. If Mystara were Earth-sized, the 8 and 24 mile map hexes would be scaled at 10 and 30 miles respectively.
Personally, I never understood why the map was shrunk, and wouldn't have cared less. As far as my players are concerned, the Known World is too big by itself, not to mention the rest of the planet. Too bad they're heading "inside" in a week or so.
Roger
My suspicion on the size and circumference of Mystara is as follows:
- Frank Mentzer created the continental shape of Mystara in the mid-1980s, with the Masters set. That map had Brun on the left edge of the page, Skothar on the right, and between them an undefined width of ocean that was home to the "Sea Kingdoms". Exact map scales, along with continental/planetary names, were also left undefined at the time.
- The Hollow World boxed set, published after Frank got fed up with The Witch and left TSR, reworked the map of Mystara and attempted to bring in terrain and scale. Cartographer's fiat in that product set the distance between western Brun and eastern Skothar to be a comparatively narrow width of ocean - about an inch of map space. That, plus the established scop of southeastern Brun, led to the overall "1 inch equals 1,380 miles" scale standard.
- It's my fairly firm conviction, based on the available evidence, that the originally intended distance between western Brun and eastern Skothar was a LOT larger than later made out to be in later products. We're talking about Mystara's equivalent of the Pacific Ocean, after all, and furthermore a Pacific that had only recently been the only real ocean on the planet. Only the design and mapping decisions made after Frank left TSR for good established anything different in this regard.
It'd be fairly reasonable to expand Mystara to a 25,000-mile circumference by simply increasing the size of the M-Pacific. This gets you something much closer to our real world, grants Mystara one real bluewater of an ocean (my favorite place to set PC3 material, in passing - none of this nonsense about being caged up in the Sea of Dread!) and the only bit of canon affected is the notion of ogres emigrating from eastern Skothar to the Immortals' Arm that Bruce floated in the last days of the Known World Grimoire. (And even that last isn't necessarily a dead issue - if Magellan could cross the Pacific, Mystaran explorers with magic should be able to manage a similar feat!...)
@ Jonhbiles : no offense, but imho you should not post image that big iside a forum, it breaks things at least for reading :-)
:D
And this one is also very beautiful and nearly fits the Mystara-Earth time period
:D
Interestingly, that one has the ocean coming into the middle of "Brun". Not unlike how the Hackwurlde of Mystaros was sketched at one point...
Håvard
Thanks again Drew, for helping me find this thread.
Here is a quick map I just made to adress a couple of questions:
Notes: I just put this together real quick and didnt think much about actual figures. I enlarged Thorf's master set map slightly to reflect that Mystara is actually smaller than earth.
I was mainly interested in comparing the climate of real world areas to that of the Known World and Norwold. Assuming my map to be correct, the Known World should have a similar climate to that of Southern/Central Europe, while Wendar and Heldann would be similar to Northern Europe. Norwold will be similar to Scandinavia. This also interestingly compares quite well with many of the cultural assumptions of these areas on Mystara.
One of the things that prompted me to do this map was the climate of Norwold. If this comparison holds, inland areas north of the Great Bay will be harsh indeed, but (speaking as a Norwegian here) coastal areas like Alpha, Littonia etc should be quite livable assuming similar effects as that of the Gulf Stream on Norway.
What do you think? Is this map a fair representation of climatic comparisons between Earth and Mystara? This is assuming the general temperature is similar on both planets and not taking into account magical effects on certain regions of Mystara.
Havard
*Casts Ressurection spell on thread*
Thanks again Drew, for helping me find this thread.
Here is a quick map I just made to adress a couple of questions:
Notes: I just put this together real quick and didnt think much about actual figures. I enlarged Thorf's master set map slightly to reflect that Mystara is actually smaller than earth.
I was mainly interested in comparing the climate of real world areas to that of the Known World and Norwold. Assuming my map to be correct, the Known World should have a similar climate to that of Southern/Central Europe, while Wendar and Heldann would be similar to Northern Europe. Norwold will be similar to Scandinavia. This also interestingly compares quite well with many of the cultural assumptions of these areas on Mystara.
One of the things that prompted me to do this map was the climate of Norwold. If this comparison holds, inland areas north of the Great Bay will be harsh indeed, but (speaking as a Norwegian here) coastal areas like Alpha, Littonia etc should be quite livable assuming similar effects as that of the Gulf Stream on Norway.
What do you think? Is this map a fair representation of climatic comparisons between Earth and Mystara? This is assuming the general temperature is similar on both planets and not taking into account magical effects on certain regions of Mystara.
Havard
for the base map you might want to find an equal area projection map, although Brun might be OK on the comparison you have, the southern continents on the Earth map are far far smaller than their Mystaran counterparts.
for the base map you might want to find an equal area projection map, although Brun might be OK on the comparison you have, the southern continents on the Earth map are far far smaller than their Mystaran counterparts.
Yeah, you are right. This map is optimized for thr northern hemishpere. Thanks for pointing that out. It would probably be easier to make two separate maps, one for each hemisphere. I'll see if I can do something like that.
Cheers,
Havard
Interestingly, that one has the ocean coming into the middle of "Brun". Not unlike how the Hackwurlde of Mystaros was sketched at one point...
Håvard
Exactly
Apart from the fantasy settings and the potential magic effects of the struggle between immortals, to compare climate between Mystara and Earth, one thing important seems to decide of a period for comparing to the earth climat.
To makes things easier you can compare the Mystara climate to our modern era climate, but considering that the Mystara map is built on a map of earth as it was a long long time ago, thus giving you a more or less precise time frame, you may also want to compare the climate to this said period, which could gives interesting result.
The main problem is the lack of information, i agree. Though, first there's no need to be precise, and secondly, you can adapt things found in some books or documentary to achieve a result which shall be coherent.
For instance, we know that there was an Ice Age in Northern Europe (look BBC documentaries The British Isles for interesting and visual point of view on that).
We're able to locate more or less Northern Europe in Mystara.
We know that there's Frosthaven (and very cold areas north of alphatia and so on).
We know that Ice Ages come and go in History.
We can assume from that (and a bit of reading / documentation) some basic environmental conclusion that would allow to draw a climatic context respecting truth/logic and imagination, a good fantasy background.
By the way, I never thought that Mystara was smaller than earth ...
*Casts Ressurection spell on thread*
I was mainly interested in comparing the climate of real world areas to that of the Known World and Norwold. Assuming my map to be correct, the Known World should have a similar climate to that of Southern/Central Europe, while Wendar and Heldann would be similar to Northern Europe. Norwold will be similar to Scandinavia. This also interestingly compares quite well with many of the cultural assumptions of these areas on Mystara.
Havard
I'd say for Norwold area you'd better stick to our modern north american climate, and for Know World, because of scale it's harder to say but technically it's US East coast (which is often rather like western Europe i think)
I'd say for Norwold area you'd better stick to our modern north american climate, and for Know World, because of scale it's harder to say but technically it's US East coast (which is often rather like western Europe i think)
The problem with this suggestion is that the Great Bay's position on the continent of Brun corresponds with the RW Hudson Strait--bitterly cold and sparsely populated. The pre-WotI currents caused by physics (as opposed to magic, interplanar gates, etc) would cool the area slightly, and the cooling impact should be strengthened by Alphatia's sinking. All this adds up to a very cold, fairly dry climate throughout the Great Bay and most of northern Norwold, comparable northern Alaska, the Kamchatka Peninsula, Baffin Island, or the Antarctic Peninsula.
The currents justified by physics should make southern Norwold much more hospitable. Warm and cold currents would meet in the waters between Helskir, Landfall, and Oceansend, encouraging frequent storms, but providing enouch warmth to be significantly more hospitable than the Great Bay. I'd predict a climate here comparable to Tasmania, Newfoundland, coastal Norway, or Hokkaido.
Also, at the end of the bay, there was twin volcanoes forming a gateway to elemental plane of fire, thus implying / giving an example of some heat barrier, more or less. And outside the bay, near the mouth / coastline, there was a giant (magical) maelstrom also no ... ? So the current in the bay may not be what we may figure.
And by the way, the area around the bay is scarcely populated in Mystara (mostly on the west / south side by an alphatian city, a hobbit place, some elves, dragons, orcs ...)
I agree with you, if not because of fauna and local populations, south of the bay is an hospitable area.
I see no problem in fact in the bay being our Hudson straight, but i don't know precisely this area and perhaps misunderstand you ...
I'll add that we shall not compare Mystara to our modern earth and look at least at prehistoric times if not earlier to have an idea of how it could be, and that's without talking of magic and immortals
If i remember correctly Norwold, from CM 1 map, the part north of the bay was mostly toundra, just after some pine forest, and south of the bay, there was a nature far more flourishing, though still "coldy" in spirit.
I had to go check with the source:
CM1 page 4:
Consider unmarked hexes to be forest, as this is Norwold's most common terrain type.
Page 5:
Tundra
... exists only at the extreme northern end of Norwold...
also on page 5:
Norwold Climate
Norwold is a northern temperate region having four distinct seasons. Each of these lasts approximately three months. Seasons in the southern part of Norwold are less severe than the seasons in the north.
This map of Norwold IMO gives a fair identification of the Tundra areas in white. At least I assume that's what they are supposed to be.
From an earlier discussion, I recall Agathokles describing to the area between the Landsplit river and the Great Bay as taiga which the wikipedia describes as:
is a biome characterized by coniferous forests. Covering most of inland Alaska, Canada, Sweden, Finland, inland Norway and Russia (especially Siberia), as well as parts of the extreme northern continental United States, northern Kazakhstan and Japan (Hokkaidō), the taiga is the world's largest terrestrial biome.
So not quite as harsh as what Patrick describes. I agree that this could be explained by taking magical factors into account as well, such as the Arch of Fire and the Elven Forest. The presence of forests itself raises the temperature in an area.
Havard
white hex for toundra (or a mix between toundra and forest) is right or at least is how i was remembering the place.
Taiga, then toundra, yes. Then Frost giants, damned !
After that, from what i know, Canadian or Scandinavian climate is not that terrible, at least in summer, no ?
Agathokles ?
Thanks for the interesting map (and the quote). Who made it ?
After that, from what i know, Canadian or Scandinavian climate is not that terrible, at least in summer, no ?
[slight digression]
Speaking from personal experience, Canadian summers are rather nice, if a little too hot and humid at times in my neck of the woods. During July and August my city averages a high of around 23-27 Celsius during the day (around 13-18 Celsius at night), but we get frequent spells where the temperature goes above 30 (not counting the humidity), and stays there for days.
Spring and Autumn are pleasant - comparable to northern Europe I would imagine. Usually only a light jacket is required. Winter hasn't been too bad lately - the first permanent snowfall now seems to be hitting us in late November/early December, and the truly cold temperatures don't set in until January/February. Things start to thaw out in late March-early April, but for the past few years we've been starting to get periods in February/March where the temperature goes above freezing for a few days and everything starts to melt. Kind of disturbing, really.
[/slight digression]
Geoff
It sounds to me that we're in fact rather on the same line, apart from details or specific area, which anyway were barely covered in canonic scenarii (unless there's more in the almanach).
white hex for toundra (or a mix between toundra and forest) is right or at least is how i was remembering the place.
Yep. But since you referred to CM1, I just wanted to point out that most white hexes there in fact should not be considered tundra.
Taiga, then toundra, yes. Then Frost giants, damned !
Ideed
After that, from what i know, Canadian or Scandinavian climate is not that terrible, at least in summer, no ?
I guess the point is that there will be great variances within the taiga areas depending on latitude and other factors. If we out of gaming purposes, possibly justified by taking the magical factors into account, assume that much of Norwold will be comparable to the more favorable of taiga areas a medieval type society may be developed. Winters will be harsh, but no more than a medieval community can handle. The lands will not be as fertile as in the Known World, but good enough to sustain a populace.
Thanks for the interesting map (and the quote). Who made it ?
Not sure. One of our Italian friends I think. Zendrolion?
Havard