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Defiling on other worlds

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Mulhull
Aug 19, 2006 3:18:12 What do think would happen on each of these world's say a defiler showed up (or, heck perhaps people wouldn't even like preserving magic since it could be considered heresy and a sacriflege against some nature gods, since it takes life from plants.)

That 2E players option book mentioned preservers and defilers as an alternate mage class on other worlds

Ravenloft- Not really sure, depends on the darklord, since they raise undead frequently, and don't mind death perhaps some of them might not actually mind the ash, more "decorative" towards thier tastes

Forgotten Realms- What god do druids worship? Defiling a plants would either make him mad, do you think perhaps it could even cause a "lightning bolt from above" or worse an avatar to show up to repremand the PC? Or do any gods (Mystra and Shar in this case) want a monopoly on magic, and no other power source to be used other than the weaves they provide.

Krynn- same thing as FR, if there's a nature god, our DM ruled that my preserver was more powerful on Krynn since the world was so lush and green, I got an extra spell to memorize. It's mentioned that Sadira had to close her palm due to the overload of energy she received when casting a spell in the Forest Ridge.

Oerth- Are the gods Boccob and Wee Jas the exclusive providers of magic on this world, that it comes from no other source (as far as arcane mortal spellcasters are concerned)

Spelljammer- Hmm, it's mentioned that you can use the ground as a medium for transporting/gathering life energy for a spell, what about space? How far away from the plants do you have to be? In this case, could they be lightyears away? Or perhaps there are some giant plants in the flogiston/crystal spheres that you could use.
#2
cmrscorpio
Aug 19, 2006 9:14:00 well, if you are asking what would happen if a defiler from Athas showed up in another campaign setting, then:

Ravenloft: considering there was a part of Athas that got shunted to the Demiplane of Dread, it probably wouldn't be any different.

Forgotten Realms: Mystra might not allow defiler magic to function, instead making it come from the Weave.

Krynn & Oerth: I dunno. i'm not as familiar with these settings.

Spelljammer: In Wildspace, no contact physical contact with plants means no casting. On Athas, arcane spellcasters have to bring along their own plants if they want to cast spells while they are on the devoid-of-life obsidian plains. Defiles traveling between the crystal spheres would likewise have to bring along their spell-fuel.
#3
eric_anondson
Aug 19, 2006 20:25:17
Oerth- Are the gods Boccob and Wee Jas the exclusive providers of magic on this world, that it comes from no other source (as far as arcane mortal spellcasters are concerned)

There is no god that provides magic or for that matter controls it over the entire planet of Oerth. Arcane magic just is. Defilers there would be just fine.

For the planet of the Known World setting, Mystara, it is very different. Magic is similarly just a force everpresent in the world. However, there is a remnant of a crashed spaceship, the F.S.S. Beagle that is inextricably linked. The remnant is the nuclear reactor. The inhabitants of Mystara call this "artifact" the nucleus of the spheres. The nucleus of the sphere is linked to the Sphere of Energy. The Spheres of Mystara are fundmental forces of the universe, the five are Energy, Matter, Time, Thought, and Entropy. As a result of a war between the Immortals of Mystara (called the Wrath of the Immortals), the nucleus of the spheres was fought over by the Immortals and was altered. An Old One changed the nucleus of the spheres from drawing its energy from Energy to draw from Entropy instead. Afterwards, one day out of the year the nuclear reactor malfunctions and during that day the all magic ceases to function on the entire planet. Interestingly, magic is also called "The Radiance" by wizards of Glantri, where a low-rank god named "Rad" is patron of the nation.

Could defiling work in Mystara? Mystara is a world where anything imaginable is plausible. It surely could. Especially after the nucleus of the spheres is changed from Energy to Entropy. What is more entropic than defiling!
#4
rhialto
Aug 25, 2006 15:11:13 I'd say that normal magic use on most game worlds *is* defiler style magic. It is just that the magical essence flows so much more strongly through most worlds that their defiling magic doesn't actually damage life enough to matter there. Athas' preserver magic is a local development in response to the magic-poor situation there.
#5
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Aug 25, 2006 18:16:25 I don't know if I agree with that. I think Athasian Arcane Magic to be a completely different, and independent animal from other worlds. It just isn't even remotely the same. That said, as long as Athasian arcane spellcasters have plants around, they'd be able to use their magic. Talk abut defiler's paradises.
#6
seker
Aug 25, 2006 20:41:45 Actually most other campaign worlds actually specify that magic energy is an unknown alternate energy type in no way related to life force in standard D&D.... in fact in most worlds it is a primal force that is very much part of the building blocks of the world. And is for the most part considered outside the world.

in Dragonlance it is the primal energy of creation of the world, that is focused through 3 gods as a form of lens.

in forgotten realms it is a weave of energy that taps the primal energy of creation that is off the world.

so while defilers would have an alternate source of energies on these worlds.... they would likely be hunted down by others in hopes of capturing them either to destroy the tainted mages, or to learn their secrets.
#7
thebrax
Aug 25, 2006 21:00:01 I think you're asking the question on the wrong board. What would happen depends on the rules for that world. Dark Sun does not contain rules for adjudicating what happens on conventional D&D worlds.

Last time a Defiler appeared in our world, he couldn't do a damned thing. Rules of the world, man. Magic doesn't work here. So he went to school, started doing lawyer work for the mob, and eventually became the mayor of Las Vegas.
#8
thebrax
Aug 26, 2006 16:54:53 Was my point to arcane of was my sense of humor too obscure?

My point is, that asking a Dark Sun boards how a defiler's power would work on Mystara is like asking your college physics teacher about the enthalpic effect of a fireball spell cast at the 8th caster levels on the Greyhawk world. It all depends on the rules of the world where you are.
#9
seker
Aug 26, 2006 22:15:02
Was my point to arcane of was my sense of humor too obscure?

My point is, that asking a Dark Sun boards how a defiler's power would work on Mystara is like asking your college physics teacher about the enthalpic effect of a fireball spell cast at the 8th caster levels on the Greyhawk world. It all depends on the rules of the world where you are.

Heh actually it would be like asking a college physics profeseur about the thermal and chemical reactions of napalm in an alternate reality.....

However.... as in 2nd edition there were rules on transferring over the defilers and preservers to other worlds (mainly in dealing with planescape and the like) by extropolation of this, defilers would cast as normal for them on any world..... however the local mages would be hunting them down to find out how they are doing it.... not to mention every nature worshipper is going to want them dead.

In Forgotten realms.... there will be tons of would be mages that despise both Mystra and Shar who would seek out the the powers of the defiler to gain strenght and power.

Same in Dragonlance.... renegades would want the power... the wizards of high sorcery would want them dead.

etc...
#10
terminus_vortexa
Aug 27, 2006 12:44:23 I remember a 2E reference stating that Baatezu and Tanar'ri admire defilers for the sheer destructive power they wield. A defiler would probably do very well in a Blood War type campaign.
#11
diphycue
Aug 27, 2006 23:25:57 what about an athasian dragon against dragons in normal d&d worlds? hell, a single athasian dragon would wipe out all life in a HUGE area, including all the dragons before enough power could be summoned to stop him... to have that much life to tap, epic level magic and psionics...probably go insane from the influx.
#12
terminus_vortexa
Aug 28, 2006 14:36:06 The thought of something like Borys getting loose in Faerun is kind of terrifying. He'd be using Elminster and Szass Tam as toilet paper inside of a couple minutes. If he got to Krynn, Raistlin would be out of a job.
#13
lurking_shadow
Aug 28, 2006 20:29:34 I recall seeing something in City by the Silt Sea about Dregoth using the bones of dragons he killed in other worlds to build much of the city of New Giustenal.
#14
seker
Aug 28, 2006 20:50:08
I recall seeing something in City by the Silt Sea about Dregoth using the bones of dragons he killed in other worlds to build much of the city of New Giustenal.

you are exactly right.... and to think of Dregoth... he is an undead dragon more potent than all but the greatest of dracoliches.... a wizard more powerful than Elminster, Mordenkainen, or Raistlin/Fistandilis.... plus a master of psionics more powerful than an Elder Brain of a mindflayer community.....

He would walk through normal dragons like they were nothing.
#15
thebrax
Aug 28, 2006 23:21:44
you are exactly right.... and to think of Dregoth... he is an undead dragon more potent than all but the greatest of dracoliches.... a wizard more powerful than Elminster, Mordenkainen, or Raistlin/Fistandilis.... plus a master of psionics more powerful than an Elder Brain of a mindflayer community.....

He would walk through normal dragons like they were nothing.

Well if it's that simple to get to alternate D&D worlds with alternate D&D dragons, then why did Rajaat spend so freaking long developing magic? Why not just psychoport to another world and pick it up? Were those that made the planar mirror *that* much more powerful that Rajaat, psionically?
#16
seker
Aug 28, 2006 23:44:10
Well if it's that simple to get to alternate D&D worlds with alternate D&D dragons, then why did Rajaat spend so freaking long developing magic? Why not just psychoport to another world and pick it up? Were those that made the planar mirror *that* much more powerful that Rajaat, psionically?

Ah but just because arcane defiling magic will work on other worlds does NOT mean that normal magic from other worlds will work on Athas. because where would he learn magic.... Faerun? there is no weave on Athas to grant magical energy.... Dragonlance? there are no gods of magic, nor source of primal magic on Athas. Grewhawk? again no primal source of magic to tap into... The Outer Planes? magic in the outer planes is based off the power from your original plane altered by the existing plane.

Remember other than the artifact mirror.... normal psionics has just as much of a problem plane walking as magic does in Athas. And the Planar mirror was a "lost artifact" that Dregoth discovered during his Cleansing War.

And while Rajaat was powerful psionically, I seriously doubt he was an all powerful psionicist.... his skill came really to the for when he discovered arcane magic.... prior to that, there is nothing that really shows him more powerful than an average pyreen in the fluff.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mulhull Aug 19, 2006 3:18:12	What do think would happen on each of these world's say a defiler showed up (or, heck perhaps people wouldn't even like preserving magic since it could be considered heresy and a sacriflege against some nature gods, since it takes life from plants.) That 2E players option book mentioned preservers and defilers as an alternate mage class on other worlds Ravenloft- Not really sure, depends on the darklord, since they raise undead frequently, and don't mind death perhaps some of them might not actually mind the ash, more "decorative" towards thier tastes Forgotten Realms- What god do druids worship? Defiling a plants would either make him mad, do you think perhaps it could even cause a "lightning bolt from above" or worse an avatar to show up to repremand the PC? Or do any gods (Mystra and Shar in this case) want a monopoly on magic, and no other power source to be used other than the weaves they provide. Krynn- same thing as FR, if there's a nature god, our DM ruled that my preserver was more powerful on Krynn since the world was so lush and green, I got an extra spell to memorize. It's mentioned that Sadira had to close her palm due to the overload of energy she received when casting a spell in the Forest Ridge. Oerth- Are the gods Boccob and Wee Jas the exclusive providers of magic on this world, that it comes from no other source (as far as arcane mortal spellcasters are concerned) Spelljammer- Hmm, it's mentioned that you can use the ground as a medium for transporting/gathering life energy for a spell, what about space? How far away from the plants do you have to be? In this case, could they be lightyears away? Or perhaps there are some giant plants in the flogiston/crystal spheres that you could use.
#2 cmrscorpio Aug 19, 2006 9:14:00	well, if you are asking what would happen if a defiler from Athas showed up in another campaign setting, then: Ravenloft: considering there was a part of Athas that got shunted to the Demiplane of Dread, it probably wouldn't be any different. Forgotten Realms: Mystra might not allow defiler magic to function, instead making it come from the Weave. Krynn & Oerth: I dunno. i'm not as familiar with these settings. Spelljammer: In Wildspace, no contact physical contact with plants means no casting. On Athas, arcane spellcasters have to bring along their own plants if they want to cast spells while they are on the devoid-of-life obsidian plains. Defiles traveling between the crystal spheres would likewise have to bring along their spell-fuel.
#3 eric_anondson Aug 19, 2006 20:25:17	Oerth- Are the gods Boccob and Wee Jas the exclusive providers of magic on this world, that it comes from no other source (as far as arcane mortal spellcasters are concerned) There is no god that provides magic or for that matter controls it over the entire planet of Oerth. Arcane magic just is. Defilers there would be just fine. For the planet of the Known World setting, Mystara, it is very different. Magic is similarly just a force everpresent in the world. However, there is a remnant of a crashed spaceship, the F.S.S. Beagle that is inextricably linked. The remnant is the nuclear reactor. The inhabitants of Mystara call this "artifact" the nucleus of the spheres. The nucleus of the sphere is linked to the Sphere of Energy. The Spheres of Mystara are fundmental forces of the universe, the five are Energy, Matter, Time, Thought, and Entropy. As a result of a war between the Immortals of Mystara (called the Wrath of the Immortals), the nucleus of the spheres was fought over by the Immortals and was altered. An Old One changed the nucleus of the spheres from drawing its energy from Energy to draw from Entropy instead. Afterwards, one day out of the year the nuclear reactor malfunctions and during that day the all magic ceases to function on the entire planet. Interestingly, magic is also called "The Radiance" by wizards of Glantri, where a low-rank god named "Rad" is patron of the nation. Could defiling work in Mystara? Mystara is a world where anything imaginable is plausible. It surely could. Especially after the nucleus of the spheres is changed from Energy to Entropy. What is more entropic than defiling!
#4 rhialto Aug 25, 2006 15:11:13	I'd say that normal magic use on most game worlds is defiler style magic. It is just that the magical essence flows so much more strongly through most worlds that their defiling magic doesn't actually damage life enough to matter there. Athas' preserver magic is a local development in response to the magic-poor situation there.
#5 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Aug 25, 2006 18:16:25	I don't know if I agree with that. I think Athasian Arcane Magic to be a completely different, and independent animal from other worlds. It just isn't even remotely the same. That said, as long as Athasian arcane spellcasters have plants around, they'd be able to use their magic. Talk abut defiler's paradises.
#6 seker Aug 25, 2006 20:41:45	Actually most other campaign worlds actually specify that magic energy is an unknown alternate energy type in no way related to life force in standard D&D.... in fact in most worlds it is a primal force that is very much part of the building blocks of the world. And is for the most part considered outside the world. in Dragonlance it is the primal energy of creation of the world, that is focused through 3 gods as a form of lens. in forgotten realms it is a weave of energy that taps the primal energy of creation that is off the world. so while defilers would have an alternate source of energies on these worlds.... they would likely be hunted down by others in hopes of capturing them either to destroy the tainted mages, or to learn their secrets.
#7 thebrax Aug 25, 2006 21:00:01	I think you're asking the question on the wrong board. What would happen depends on the rules for that world. Dark Sun does not contain rules for adjudicating what happens on conventional D&D worlds. Last time a Defiler appeared in our world, he couldn't do a damned thing. Rules of the world, man. Magic doesn't work here. So he went to school, started doing lawyer work for the mob, and eventually became the mayor of Las Vegas.
#8 thebrax Aug 26, 2006 16:54:53	Was my point to arcane of was my sense of humor too obscure? My point is, that asking a Dark Sun boards how a defiler's power would work on Mystara is like asking your college physics teacher about the enthalpic effect of a fireball spell cast at the 8th caster levels on the Greyhawk world. It all depends on the rules of the world where you are.
#9 seker Aug 26, 2006 22:15:02	Was my point to arcane of was my sense of humor too obscure? My point is, that asking a Dark Sun boards how a defiler's power would work on Mystara is like asking your college physics teacher about the enthalpic effect of a fireball spell cast at the 8th caster levels on the Greyhawk world. It all depends on the rules of the world where you are. Heh actually it would be like asking a college physics profeseur about the thermal and chemical reactions of napalm in an alternate reality..... However.... as in 2nd edition there were rules on transferring over the defilers and preservers to other worlds (mainly in dealing with planescape and the like) by extropolation of this, defilers would cast as normal for them on any world..... however the local mages would be hunting them down to find out how they are doing it.... not to mention every nature worshipper is going to want them dead. In Forgotten realms.... there will be tons of would be mages that despise both Mystra and Shar who would seek out the the powers of the defiler to gain strenght and power. Same in Dragonlance.... renegades would want the power... the wizards of high sorcery would want them dead. etc...
#10 terminus_vortexa Aug 27, 2006 12:44:23	I remember a 2E reference stating that Baatezu and Tanar'ri admire defilers for the sheer destructive power they wield. A defiler would probably do very well in a Blood War type campaign.
#11 diphycue Aug 27, 2006 23:25:57	what about an athasian dragon against dragons in normal d&d worlds? hell, a single athasian dragon would wipe out all life in a HUGE area, including all the dragons before enough power could be summoned to stop him... to have that much life to tap, epic level magic and psionics...probably go insane from the influx.
#12 terminus_vortexa Aug 28, 2006 14:36:06	The thought of something like Borys getting loose in Faerun is kind of terrifying. He'd be using Elminster and Szass Tam as toilet paper inside of a couple minutes. If he got to Krynn, Raistlin would be out of a job.
#13 lurking_shadow Aug 28, 2006 20:29:34	I recall seeing something in City by the Silt Sea about Dregoth using the bones of dragons he killed in other worlds to build much of the city of New Giustenal.
#14 seker Aug 28, 2006 20:50:08	I recall seeing something in City by the Silt Sea about Dregoth using the bones of dragons he killed in other worlds to build much of the city of New Giustenal. you are exactly right.... and to think of Dregoth... he is an undead dragon more potent than all but the greatest of dracoliches.... a wizard more powerful than Elminster, Mordenkainen, or Raistlin/Fistandilis.... plus a master of psionics more powerful than an Elder Brain of a mindflayer community..... He would walk through normal dragons like they were nothing.
#15 thebrax Aug 28, 2006 23:21:44	you are exactly right.... and to think of Dregoth... he is an undead dragon more potent than all but the greatest of dracoliches.... a wizard more powerful than Elminster, Mordenkainen, or Raistlin/Fistandilis.... plus a master of psionics more powerful than an Elder Brain of a mindflayer community..... He would walk through normal dragons like they were nothing. Well if it's that simple to get to alternate D&D worlds with alternate D&D dragons, then why did Rajaat spend so freaking long developing magic? Why not just psychoport to another world and pick it up? Were those that made the planar mirror that much more powerful that Rajaat, psionically?
#16 seker Aug 28, 2006 23:44:10	Well if it's that simple to get to alternate D&D worlds with alternate D&D dragons, then why did Rajaat spend so freaking long developing magic? Why not just psychoport to another world and pick it up? Were those that made the planar mirror that much more powerful that Rajaat, psionically? Ah but just because arcane defiling magic will work on other worlds does NOT mean that normal magic from other worlds will work on Athas. because where would he learn magic.... Faerun? there is no weave on Athas to grant magical energy.... Dragonlance? there are no gods of magic, nor source of primal magic on Athas. Grewhawk? again no primal source of magic to tap into... The Outer Planes? magic in the outer planes is based off the power from your original plane altered by the existing plane. Remember other than the artifact mirror.... normal psionics has just as much of a problem plane walking as magic does in Athas. And the Planar mirror was a "lost artifact" that Dregoth discovered during his Cleansing War. And while Rajaat was powerful psionically, I seriously doubt he was an all powerful psionicist.... his skill came really to the for when he discovered arcane magic.... prior to that, there is nothing that really shows him more powerful than an average pyreen in the fluff.