I think I would go with something kinda unoriginal, like:
Wizard 3/ Psion 3/ Cerebremancer 10/ Archmage 4/ Avangion 10
The build I was planning on using for my Avangion is Wiz 7/ Psion 4/ Cerebremancer 10/ Epic Cerebremancer 3/ Avangion 10 (intersperse the Avangion levels with the epic Cerebremancer and a psion level).
-X
Maybe Wiz 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Archmage 4/Epic Cerebremancer 3/ Avangion 7.
Or Wizard 7/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/ Archage 3/ Avangion 7.
Your build just needs a little tweaking to keep it under or at level 30.
Heres what comes off the top of my head:
1 Fighter/ 3 Wizard/ 3 Wilder/ 10 Cerebremancer/ Eldritch Knight 3/ 2 Epic Cerebremancer/ 8 Dragon
Its much harder to do it with psychic warrior.
7 Wizard/ 6 Psychic Warrior/ 10 Cerebremancer/ 7 Dragon
7 Wizard/ 2 Psychic Warrior/ 5 Illithid Slayer/ 10 Cerebremancer/ 6 Dragon
3 Wizard/ 4 Psychic Warrior/ 3 Illithid Slayer/ 10 Cerebremancer/ 4 Epic Cerebremancer/ 6 Dragon
Any psychic warrior dragon builds out there?
what do u guys say?
ok, for fun, not game effectiveness:human ex-templar -5, Shadow Templar -10/ Psion -11(seer or egoist)interchanged during levels gained, (if the feats could be made to systemwise suit athas) Shadow Adept -3 (if not, then change Shadow Adept to Arcane Devotee), Dragon -1.
u can guess what dragon i like?..
For dragons I would go the following:
Classic master of defiling and psionics:
Wizard 3/psion (any) 7/cerebramancer 10/Arch defiler 4/dragon 6
(take practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester and you have a CL and ML of 26 and can cast and manifest 9th level powers/spells)
Master of disguise:
Wizard 3/Psion (telepath) 7/cerebramancer 10/myrmeleon 4/dragon 6
(take practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester and you have a CL and ML of 26 and can cast and manifest 9th level powers/spells)
Lord of the Herd:
Wizard 3/Psion (telepath) 3/cerebramancer 10/mindbender 7/thrallherd 3/dragon 4
(take practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester and you have a CL 24 and a ML of 22 and can cast 9th level spells and manifest 8th level powers)
Master of animal Defiling:
Wizard 3/Psion (any) 3/cerebramancer10/leach 10/dragon 4
(take practiced spellcaster and you have a CL 30 and can cast 9th level spells)
chaos dragon:
Wizard 1/Wilder 1/wildmage 6/anarchic initiate 7/cerebramancer 10/dragon 5
(take practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester and you have a CL 25 and a ML 26 and can cast and manifest 9th level powers/spells)
War Dragon:
Psion 1/Wizard 3/blood magus 4/Illithid Slayer 10/cerebramancer 10/dragon 2
(take practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester and you have a CL 22 and a ML of 26 and can cast/manifest 9th level spells/powers)
War Dragon, version 2:
Psychic warrior 11/Wizard 3/blood magus 4/cerebramancer 10/dragon 2
(take practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester and you have a CL 22 and a ML of 26 and can cast 9th level spells and manifest 6th level powers)
now to the avangions:
Classic master of preserving and psionics:
Wizard 3/psion (any) 7/cerebramancer 10/veiled one 4/avangion 6
(take practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester and you have a CL and ML of 26 and can cast and manifest 9th level powers/spells)
Font of energy:
Wizard 3/psion (any) 3/cerebramancer 10/metamind 9/veiled one 4/avangion 1
(take practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester and you have a CL and ML of 17 and can cast and manifest 9th level powers/spells)
Now with the obsidian bard PrC I made up, for either dragon or avangion:
Wizard 2/psion (telepath) 1/rogue 3/obsidian bard 14/cerebramancer 5/(dragon or avangion) 5
(take practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester and you have a CL 21 and a ML of 18 and can cast 9th level spells and manifest 7th level powers)
i noticed Seker, that u could not at all let go of the Cerebremancer
to be honest, that is because the multiclassing system of the standard D&D rules and D20 rules is hopelessly flawed when it comes to casters and manifesters. It litterally makes them useless.
Cerebramancer, eldritch knight, mystic theurge, and similiar PrC's were actually just a "band aid" to try and fix the fundamental flaws in the system.
So I could make an advanced being without them, but to be honest they would be useless as a player character.
bare minimum stats would be 28 level to just qualify for the dragon or avangion PrC without cerebramancer.... leaving you 1 level to play with if you only take 1 level of dragon or avangion. (wizard 17/psion 11 to qualify) And this leaves both casting and manifesting below 20 on the CL and ML.... fairly useless.
Oh and the reason I don't use archmage in the builds is this.... while I could see an avangion or preserver having it.... defiler's are too focused on shortcuts to do something of that nature.... in fact I do not see any of the SK's besides maybe Nibenay (or possibly dregoth) as having archmage as a PrC.
but what if all the dragons and avangions are made this way?, there would be nothing to really distinguish them from each other i think (in very broad lines that is).
(i do understand your motivations however)
basically u mean that it would take to many levels in comparison to 2nd E. to get the same endresult, yes?
but what if all the dragons and avangions are made this way?, there would be nothing to really distinguish them from each other i think (in very broad lines that is).
(i do understand your motivations however)
No I meant what I said....
without the cerebramancer class I will do up an optimal dragon vs a standard psion or wizard of the same level.
Dragon:
Psion (seer) 4/ex-templar 1/anarchic initiate 7/shadow templar 6/blood magus 4/dragon 8
This abuses every last rule you can, to get the most power and the most HP, and bonuses that work well together. Total CL 17 and able to cast 9th level spells, total manifester level 18 and able to manifest 6th level powers... if you have the extra feats to take practiced manifester and spellcaster your they raise to CL 21 and ML 22)
30th level straight wizard or psion will all but ignore the dragons spells or powers.... and their own would cut through the dragon like it was nothing.... plus either could go full progression PrC's and gain quite a bit of additional bonuses against a dragon of this nature.
And if we build the class without the arguably overpowered shadow templar class, the best you can get is
Psion (seer) 4/anarchic initiate 7/wizard 13/blood magus 4/dragon 2
which is CL 18 ML 12.... which is even more outclassed by straight class characters of either types.....
hardly shows the fact that dragons/avangions are supposed to be "masters" of both magic and psionics.... not to mention they are supposed to be the greatest arcane spellcasters there are.
And I thought that I showed a fairly massive amount of variance in the different dragons and Avangions with just the few I showed in my first post..... it is easy to make them pretty massively different even taking levels of cerebramancer.....
human ex-templar -5, Shadow Templar -10/ Psion -11(seer or egoist)interchanged during levels gained, (if the feats could be made to systemwise suit athas) Shadow Adept -3 (if not, then change Shadow Adept to Arcane Devotee), Dragon -1.
u can guess what dragon i like?..
Use the Shadow Dragon PrC for it, it is in the Forum Archive. You then would use the Athas.org Shadow Wizard PrC instead of the Shadow Adept. It works out good.
For me, I like Wizard 3, Psion 3, Cerebramancer 10, Shadow Wizard 4, Shadow Dragon 9. If you use the complete psionics book, you could use the Ardent class instead, stagger the Cerebramancer and Shadow Wizard and use Practiced manifester and spellcaster to get 9th level spells, 9th level powers and CL 30, ML 27. But that is me.
, dragons do not perse have anything to do with the shadow, only because of a background would a char have a link to it,
in my oppinion u could even have a shadow avangion....
and where in the archive can i find it?
why is there a shadow dragon, thats a load of bull to me
dragons do not perse have anything to do with the shadow, only because of a background would a char have a link to it,
in my oppinion u could even have a shadow avangion....
and where in the archive can i find it?
It is a Epic PrC I came up with for those mages that took the Shadow Wizard PrC. Eventually I will work out one for Necromants and Curlean Casters. The idea was to incorporate the fact that they tap different energy sources and to give them ways to do so on a larger scale. It should be in the Class section of the archieve http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=569919
but:
i do not regard the fact that they have to be Defilers in the prerequesits, as they tap from the black, as i told, in normal logic u could even have a shadow avangion, simply because the Black/ shadow has nothing to do with the fact u preserve or defile, granted, most ppl who invest time and effort to understand the black are not sweethearts, but the alignment restrictions in the original prestige class book for athas magics (dont recall the name of the booklett) were any kind of Neutral, not evil!
so to be clear about it, i think there should be no special class like shadow dragon or shadow avangion, there is a user who uses shadow who can become either, because of moral restrictions, not because of a neutral way of using magic.