Do Athasian non-dragon-king dragons desire territorial control? Then all sorts of other questions come up: Would they get into territorial spats with other Athasian dragons encroaching their domain? What size territory would particular stage dragons be content with for a home, or for when it is at an animalistic phase for a ramage territory? Would later-phase dragons tolerate earlier phase-dragons within their territory as higher level AD&D/Classic D&D druids would accept lower level AD&D/Classic D&D druids (I'm not saying there would be any sort of organization, just a level of bemused recognition of one's lessers)?
Should we even try to come up with a demographics system for Athasian dragonhood in the manner of DMG demographics rules?
Does this even interest any other Dark Sun fans besides me? :D
Because dragons in darksun are too individualized on their power level and abilities.... one stage one dragon might be 21st level.... and another 50th...
and there might be a 22nd level stage 5 dragon roaming around and a 44th level stage 1 dragon....
And personality wise I think all dragons would be power grasping territorial beings.... just like defilers are.
Though a dragon formerly from Ur Draxa would be a heck of alot more likely to obey the wishes of Borys and willingly serve him rather than being "promoted" to a spirit lord....
I often wonder what Farcluun's dreams and ambitions are, his expectations about the world and his future. I believe that you can see it one of two ways: depending on what the fledgling dragon knows from the true history of Athas he can either A) act with caution or boldness in full understanding of the identity of the powers of this world, or B) act with caution or boldness relative to his limited understanding of his place in the world.
A dragon who uses for a basis option B will soon encounter trouble as the hidden masters of the world intervene or interfere with his doings, while option A is rarer but may result in a longer lifespan for the dragon.
Frankly I think this would be too individualized to do as a table.
Because dragons in darksun are too individualized on their power level and abilities.... one stage one dragon might be 21st level.... and another 50th...
and there might be a 22nd level stage 5 dragon roaming around and a 44th level stage 1 dragon....
That seems to be entirely a 3e innovation. Dragons under the Dragon Kings sourcebook are pretty equivalent in their metamorphosis phase/character level.
Phone, heh? Lucky bastard... :D
Well, I volunteered to help with one of his projects and we had a little conference. Sometimes it is best to talk about things than to IM or email.
I often wonder what Farcluun's dreams and ambitions are, his expectations about the world and his future. I believe that you can see it one of two ways: depending on what the fledgling dragon knows from the true history of Athas he can either A) act with caution or boldness in full understanding of the identity of the powers of this world, or B) act with caution or boldness relative to his limited understanding of his place in the world.
A dragon who uses for a basis option B will soon encounter trouble as the hidden masters of the world intervene or interfere with his doings, while option A is rarer but may result in a longer lifespan for the dragon.
I certainly agree that we have to acknowledge the fact dragons, as supremely intelligent, willful, and powerful entities have their own individual goals and reasons for attaining dragonhood. Dragonhood is a means to an end.
I believe it is still helpful to come up with some sort of generalized guidance for DMs in the same way developing encounter tables are helpful. They give DMs an idea for what is out there. Some sort of demographics for dragons would help DMs get a feel for the distribution of dragons at each dragon phase.
I'm mostly thinking outloud on this...
That seems to be entirely a 3e innovation. Dragons under the Dragon Kings sourcebook are pretty equivalent in their metamorphosis phase/character level.
Yeah but you could name on less than one hand the number of non-SK dragons in the tablelands in 2ed. Pretty much any in the tablelands were hunted down and slaughtered by the SK's as they became aware of them.
Heck there were more Avangions in proccess that were non SK's, than dragons that were not, by the official modules.
And there were none mentioned by name or frequency outside of the tablelands.... just the possibility that they existed.
For the most part I think the city state example is really the best way to look at them.... one per city state.... no more.
Outside of that, it would be pretty individual on how far their power extended.
I would say that any given fully evolved dragon (stage 10) would have an area of around the tablelands themselves as their domain.... and would only tolerate lower level ones if they had some kind of control over them.
Yeah but you could name on less than one hand the number of non-SK dragons in the tablelands in 2ed.
To me, that doesn't mean there weren't more. I don't think we can make firm statements based only on what was named. In an interview with Troy Denning, I asked him whether he ever intended for there to have been more Champions than those who were explicitly named in his books, Champions who were elsewhere on the planet. He said it made total sense there were Champions who were tasked with genocide beyond the relatively minuscule Tyr-region who never set foot there.
Pretty much any in the tablelands were hunted down and slaughtered by the SK's as they became aware of them.
Sounds like behavior we could use to help model a sort of demography!
And there were none mentioned by name or frequency outside of the tablelands.... just the possibility that they existed.
Well there weren't really any Grand Necromancers leading legions of undead around the Tablelands named in any sourcebook either, but there was a possibility of them being encountered (see Dragon Kings).
For the most part I think the city state example is really the best way to look at them.... one per city state.... no more.
Outside of that, it would be pretty individual on how far their power extended.
I would say that any given fully evolved dragon (stage 10) would have an area of around the tablelands themselves as their domain.... and would only tolerate lower level ones if they had some kind of control over them.
I think the territory Borys took his levy from is a good model too. We can't forget that he once took his levy from Kurn and Eldaarich as well, but later gave up on them. Putting in Kurn and Eldaarich and Ur Draxa in Borys's domain would about double the theoretical domain of a stage-10 dragon from just the Tablelands.
To me, that doesn't mean there weren't more. I don't think we can make firm statements based only on what was named. In an interview with Troy Denning, I asked him whether he ever intended for there to have been more Champions than those who were explicitly named in his books, Champions who were elsewhere on the planet. He said it made total sense there were Champions who were tasked with genocide beyond the relatively minuscule Tyr-region who never set foot there.
Agreed that we have no way of knowing how many dragons were beyond the tyr region, that is why I specified no more were named in the Tablelands... ie the tyr region. I firmly believe that there are many many more dragons around Athas, and I also thing there are likely Avangions out there.
But from everything presented the SK's hunted down any Dragons found in their domain.... heck Borys was known to transform any of his people in Ur Draxa getting close into undead to keep domminion over them.
I was just saying that by what information we were given on them they were EXTREMELY territorial and unlikely to share their power with others and hunted down those who invaded their domains....
Sounds like behavior we could use to help model a sort of demography! Well there weren't really any Grand Necromancers leading legions of undead around the Tablelands named in any sourcebook either, but there was a possibility of them being encountered (see Dragon Kings).
Just as there was the possiblity of a stage 10 avangion in the book, but none have ever been shown in the campaign world.
And the Dragon Kings seemed to be designed in part to be used for different time periods too.... So while there may not be a undead army hunting the tablelands currently.... there could be easily enough and there problably has been.... many times.
I think the territory Borys took his levy from is a good model too. We can't forget that he once took his levy from Kurn and Eldaarich as well, but later gave up on them. Putting in Kurn and Eldaarich and Ur Draxa in Borys's domain would about double the theoretical domain of a stage-10 dragon from just the Tablelands.
As I was saying... having each dragon having a domain that they consider theirs (similiar to a city state.... heck farcluun was even known to have an area in the forest ridge that had his pyramid) is pretty much needed.... especially considering the structure requirements.
But I think Borys may be a solo case of a 10th stage ruling over ten or so other dragons. As he was ruling them by their sufferance. If they joined together they could likely have killed him.
So having one dragon, avangion, etc... per city state, or other similiar sized area, seems to be the demographic
Cause remember while Borys was granted his levy by the other SK's his actual domain was Ur Draxa.
Though a champion would likely have a much larger area than a normal dragon.... and a SK even more so.
I like the idea that the fifteen traveled the entire planet during the Cleansing Wars. It would be extremely hard to explain why the wars took 1,500 years if the Champions were limited to an area even several times the size of the Tyr region. Keltis passed through the last Sea, and that is about as far from the Tyr region one can get in the offical TSR mapped material. He and the other champions could very well have gone much farther afield.
To the best of my knowledge there are two non-Champion dragons mentioned in offical material: Farlcuun (22nd-level), and Gratych (25-level). There are likely more out there, but I would not say many more. In my game I would put the total number of dragons to have ever existed at below 30.
As for avangions, they are even more rare. I consider the three offical ones (Oronis, Nerad, Korgunard) to be the only ones.
Concerning territory, everyone has as much as they are able to hold, if territory is a goal.
After seeing the Monarch's Chosen PrC, Greyorm (who helped with the writting) proposed that Graytch be a former Monarch's Chosen of Kalak, well on his way to becoming a dragon.
I don't know the specifics of this "Monarch's Chosen" stuff, but I personally doubt that Graytch was overly special in Kalak's eyes. It appears that he left Kalak's service, possibly after stealing, or transcribing, a copy of Defiler Metamorphosis from him, and fled south to begin the transformation. If Kalak was aware of this theft, or if he favored Graytch, I doubt escape would have been possible. I don't know, maybe he faked his death.
Regardless, there is a lot of room for speculation, and the above is simply my opinion, of course. The card itself does not go into much detail.
One of the Graytch cards I own:
One of the Graytch cards I own:
Graytch sems quite advanced in his transformation may be 5th stage (under dragon kings rules 25 level meaned 5th tranformation spell was cast) how did he escaped animalistic rages?