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Need help, Dwarven Focus broken?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Aug 20, 2006 19:57:59 Hi, I'm hoping to get some help regarding Athas.org's Athasian dwarf. The dwarf receives, according to the text, a "+1 morale bonus on all checks directly related to their focus. This includes a skill bonus, an attack bonus, a damage bonus, or a saving throw bonus, or even a bonus to manifestation or spell save DCs." This appears to me to be a bit confusing (if the morale bonus is to checks, then why does it apply to damage?) as well as overpowered. I believe the latter characterization applies because the morale bonus doesn't seem to have any use constraints (usable only a certain number of times a day, for example), and its application seems to be fairly broad (the sidebar gives an example wherein a dwarf gains his morale bonus against a randomly encountered lirre because the lirre is an obstacle on his way to an outpost, which hides a person who in turn possesses a sacred book, the acquisition of which is the dwarf's ultimate focus). Adding to its broadness, the bonus seems to apply to a whole lot of checks, which collectively almost make the Athasian dwarf qualify for a +1 LA. Sure, the quest associated with a focus has to take at least a week to fulfill, but this doesn't seem to be much of a restriction, since the vast majority of adventures (at least in the campaigns I play) take at least a week to complete, what with all the overland traveling and resting in between encounters.

Anyways, I'm hoping to get some help from the more knowledgeable people on the boards. If I've missed something, please correct me. Also, I read an article in Dragon Magazine #319 that seems, at least to me, to have a better version of the dwarven focus. The dwarf receives a +4 Focus bonus on all Will saves against mind-affecting spells that would distract the dwarf from his focus. This seems to be a bit more balanced and sensible. Needless to say, a solution could always be houseruled in, but I'd like to get as many thoughts as possible in first. Thanks!
#2
seker
Aug 20, 2006 23:31:18 actually considering what bonuses the dwarves got on their bonus in the original and the revised rules (which was a +1 on all saves, and +2 on all proficiency checks.... or +10% on percentile rolls) the bonus from the Dragon magazine article, in no way met with the original scope of the focus.

This was always a very powerful ability.... that was offset by an EXTREMELY dangerous downside. If you willingly break your focus, you become a Banshee when you die, doomed to haunt and destroy any who would fullfill your focus.

So if your focus is to recover the book (as in the example) and you decide to go do something else when you suspect the book is in Draj.... you are risking becoming an undead on death. So if your party has to go to Nibenay.... you are out of luck. (choice of going to nibenay with the party and becoming a banshee, or leaving the party and going on his own to Draj.)
#3
zombiegleemax
Aug 21, 2006 1:32:04 Thanks for the response, Seeker. In reply I'd still have to say that the original 2ed DS dwarf still only got the focus bonus to his saving throws and proficiency checks, while the 3.5 conversion dwarf gets all that as well as the benefit of applying said bonus to attack, damage, and spell save DCs (granted, DCs didn't exist in 2ed).

And when I brought up the Dragon magazine version, I didn't mean to say that it approached a "truer" or more "original" interpretation of the older 2ed focus. Sorry if I communicated that. In fact, I'd say that the Dragon magazine version probably captures the concept of the dwarven focus just as well if not better than 2ed rules, since the dwarven focus is supposed to be about extreme concentration, attitude, and diligence. Thus, +4 on Will saves, instead of +1 on all saves (and remember several 2ed saves would fall under the single rubric of "Will saves"). Anyways, both the 2ed and Dragon Magazine versions work for me. The problem I have is with the 3.5 version.

Also, as far as the downside is concerned, it is certainly very reasonable from an in-game perspective. If I were a dwarf, I'd be very careful where I focused my energies, lest I apply it wrongly and end up a "banshee wandering the wastes and haunting [my] unfinished work." This might keep the Focus from being abused. However, from a meta-game perspective, it doesn't hold up as well. If a player's dwarf is focusing on recovering a book, it's probably because he has a metagame hint from the DM that he better go get it and not screw around doing anything else. And the other players aren't going to decide to go somewhere else and screw the dwarf out of completing his task. A gaming group isn't going to split up for an extended period of time. Furthermore, I doubt a player cares very much what happens to his dwarf after he does. After all, it's not the player who's going to be transformed into a banshee. To sum up, the undeath downside only has RP effects, not game mechanics effects.
#4
seker
Aug 21, 2006 2:21:58
Thanks for the response, Seeker. In reply I'd still have to say that the original 2ed DS dwarf still only got the focus bonus to his saving throws and proficiency checks, while the 3.5 conversion dwarf gets all that as well as the benefit of applying said bonus to attack, damage, and spell save DCs (granted, DCs didn't exist in 2ed).

Yes they get the bonus to attacks, and damage... (note spell save DC's is a new system so it is difficult to really qualify them vs the old system.)

But also note, the bonuses in 2nd edition were much more pronounced... in fact they were double the bonuses from athas.org version. So in adding the attack and damage bonus the ability is still a little weaker than the 2nd edition version.

And when I brought up the Dragon magazine version, I didn't mean to say that it approached a "truer" or more "original" interpretation of the older 2ed focus. Sorry if I communicated that. In fact, I'd say that the Dragon magazine version probably captures the concept of the dwarven focus just as well if not better than 2ed rules, since the dwarven focus is supposed to be about extreme concentration, attitude, and diligence. Thus, +4 on Will saves, instead of +1 on all saves (and remember several 2ed saves would fall under the single rubric of "Will saves"). Anyways, both the 2ed and Dragon Magazine versions work for me. The problem I have is with the 3.5 version.

Actually I would dispute the idea that the dragon article captures the concept more.... mainly because in most of the cases were dwarvern focus was shown in the fluff (specifically the prism pentad series for the main part) the dwarves were using them in conjunction with combat to make them more focused towards defeating their opponents. The dwarf gladiator in the beginning of Verdant Passage and the army from Kemalok in the Cerulean Storm, both are massive examples of this.

This seems to indicate that a bonus on combat would make more sense for the focus, than just a Will save.

Also, as far as the downside is concerned, it is certainly very reasonable from an in-game perspective. If I were a dwarf, I'd be very careful where I focused my energies, lest I apply it wrongly and end up a "banshee wandering the wastes and haunting [my] unfinished work." This might keep the Focus from being abused. However, from a meta-game perspective, it doesn't hold up as well. If a player's dwarf is focusing on recovering a book, it's probably because he has a metagame hint from the DM that he better go get it and not screw around doing anything else. And the other players aren't going to decide to go somewhere else and screw the dwarf out of completing his task. A gaming group isn't going to split up for an extended period of time. Furthermore, I doubt a player cares very much what happens to his dwarf after he does. After all, it's not the player who's going to be transformed into a banshee. To sum up, the undeath downside only has RP effects, not game mechanics effects.

yet the novels had this exact thing happen.... in the beginning of the pentad... Yarig had made his focus to fight in the arena games, so he could not go with the party..... and as the player chooses the focus for the dwarf.... the GM may have issues where they player may just have to leave the party.... ie a good reason to use a character tree.

And if the PC does break his focus, it is no longer just an RP penalty.... the party may have just gotten a very very nasty enemy, depending on what the focus was.

For instance: The dwarf in the party makes his focus to eradicate a specific gith tribe... and when confronted with the women and children of the tribe refuses to kill them. While he has done the right thing, when he dies he ends up becoming a banshee with the purpose of defending the gith tribe.... to prevent another from fullfilling it.

So if he breaks his focus while the party is fighting the gith, and dies during the combat.... he would raise during the combat and start fighting the party.

So there are cases where this becomes more than just an RP issue. Because the GM does not have full control over the focus, as it is player chosen.
#5
thebrax
Aug 25, 2006 21:41:26 "+4 Focus bonus on all Will saves against mind-affecting spells that would distract the dwarf from his focus"

Isn't that kind of like having a magical rock whose only power is a +4 bonus against getting crushed?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Aug 20, 2006 19:57:59	Hi, I'm hoping to get some help regarding Athas.org's Athasian dwarf. The dwarf receives, according to the text, a "+1 morale bonus on all checks directly related to their focus. This includes a skill bonus, an attack bonus, a damage bonus, or a saving throw bonus, or even a bonus to manifestation or spell save DCs." This appears to me to be a bit confusing (if the morale bonus is to checks, then why does it apply to damage?) as well as overpowered. I believe the latter characterization applies because the morale bonus doesn't seem to have any use constraints (usable only a certain number of times a day, for example), and its application seems to be fairly broad (the sidebar gives an example wherein a dwarf gains his morale bonus against a randomly encountered lirre because the lirre is an obstacle on his way to an outpost, which hides a person who in turn possesses a sacred book, the acquisition of which is the dwarf's ultimate focus). Adding to its broadness, the bonus seems to apply to a whole lot of checks, which collectively almost make the Athasian dwarf qualify for a +1 LA. Sure, the quest associated with a focus has to take at least a week to fulfill, but this doesn't seem to be much of a restriction, since the vast majority of adventures (at least in the campaigns I play) take at least a week to complete, what with all the overland traveling and resting in between encounters. Anyways, I'm hoping to get some help from the more knowledgeable people on the boards. If I've missed something, please correct me. Also, I read an article in Dragon Magazine #319 that seems, at least to me, to have a better version of the dwarven focus. The dwarf receives a +4 Focus bonus on all Will saves against mind-affecting spells that would distract the dwarf from his focus. This seems to be a bit more balanced and sensible. Needless to say, a solution could always be houseruled in, but I'd like to get as many thoughts as possible in first. Thanks!
#2 seker Aug 20, 2006 23:31:18	actually considering what bonuses the dwarves got on their bonus in the original and the revised rules (which was a +1 on all saves, and +2 on all proficiency checks.... or +10% on percentile rolls) the bonus from the Dragon magazine article, in no way met with the original scope of the focus. This was always a very powerful ability.... that was offset by an EXTREMELY dangerous downside. If you willingly break your focus, you become a Banshee when you die, doomed to haunt and destroy any who would fullfill your focus. So if your focus is to recover the book (as in the example) and you decide to go do something else when you suspect the book is in Draj.... you are risking becoming an undead on death. So if your party has to go to Nibenay.... you are out of luck. (choice of going to nibenay with the party and becoming a banshee, or leaving the party and going on his own to Draj.)
#3 zombiegleemax Aug 21, 2006 1:32:04	Thanks for the response, Seeker. In reply I'd still have to say that the original 2ed DS dwarf still only got the focus bonus to his saving throws and proficiency checks, while the 3.5 conversion dwarf gets all that as well as the benefit of applying said bonus to attack, damage, and spell save DCs (granted, DCs didn't exist in 2ed). And when I brought up the Dragon magazine version, I didn't mean to say that it approached a "truer" or more "original" interpretation of the older 2ed focus. Sorry if I communicated that. In fact, I'd say that the Dragon magazine version probably captures the concept of the dwarven focus just as well if not better than 2ed rules, since the dwarven focus is supposed to be about extreme concentration, attitude, and diligence. Thus, +4 on Will saves, instead of +1 on all saves (and remember several 2ed saves would fall under the single rubric of "Will saves"). Anyways, both the 2ed and Dragon Magazine versions work for me. The problem I have is with the 3.5 version. Also, as far as the downside is concerned, it is certainly very reasonable from an in-game perspective. If I were a dwarf, I'd be very careful where I focused my energies, lest I apply it wrongly and end up a "banshee wandering the wastes and haunting [my] unfinished work." This might keep the Focus from being abused. However, from a meta-game perspective, it doesn't hold up as well. If a player's dwarf is focusing on recovering a book, it's probably because he has a metagame hint from the DM that he better go get it and not screw around doing anything else. And the other players aren't going to decide to go somewhere else and screw the dwarf out of completing his task. A gaming group isn't going to split up for an extended period of time. Furthermore, I doubt a player cares very much what happens to his dwarf after he does. After all, it's not the player who's going to be transformed into a banshee. To sum up, the undeath downside only has RP effects, not game mechanics effects.
#4 seker Aug 21, 2006 2:21:58	Thanks for the response, Seeker. In reply I'd still have to say that the original 2ed DS dwarf still only got the focus bonus to his saving throws and proficiency checks, while the 3.5 conversion dwarf gets all that as well as the benefit of applying said bonus to attack, damage, and spell save DCs (granted, DCs didn't exist in 2ed). Yes they get the bonus to attacks, and damage... (note spell save DC's is a new system so it is difficult to really qualify them vs the old system.) But also note, the bonuses in 2nd edition were much more pronounced... in fact they were double the bonuses from athas.org version. So in adding the attack and damage bonus the ability is still a little weaker than the 2nd edition version. And when I brought up the Dragon magazine version, I didn't mean to say that it approached a "truer" or more "original" interpretation of the older 2ed focus. Sorry if I communicated that. In fact, I'd say that the Dragon magazine version probably captures the concept of the dwarven focus just as well if not better than 2ed rules, since the dwarven focus is supposed to be about extreme concentration, attitude, and diligence. Thus, +4 on Will saves, instead of +1 on all saves (and remember several 2ed saves would fall under the single rubric of "Will saves"). Anyways, both the 2ed and Dragon Magazine versions work for me. The problem I have is with the 3.5 version. Actually I would dispute the idea that the dragon article captures the concept more.... mainly because in most of the cases were dwarvern focus was shown in the fluff (specifically the prism pentad series for the main part) the dwarves were using them in conjunction with combat to make them more focused towards defeating their opponents. The dwarf gladiator in the beginning of Verdant Passage and the army from Kemalok in the Cerulean Storm, both are massive examples of this. This seems to indicate that a bonus on combat would make more sense for the focus, than just a Will save. Also, as far as the downside is concerned, it is certainly very reasonable from an in-game perspective. If I were a dwarf, I'd be very careful where I focused my energies, lest I apply it wrongly and end up a "banshee wandering the wastes and haunting [my] unfinished work." This might keep the Focus from being abused. However, from a meta-game perspective, it doesn't hold up as well. If a player's dwarf is focusing on recovering a book, it's probably because he has a metagame hint from the DM that he better go get it and not screw around doing anything else. And the other players aren't going to decide to go somewhere else and screw the dwarf out of completing his task. A gaming group isn't going to split up for an extended period of time. Furthermore, I doubt a player cares very much what happens to his dwarf after he does. After all, it's not the player who's going to be transformed into a banshee. To sum up, the undeath downside only has RP effects, not game mechanics effects. yet the novels had this exact thing happen.... in the beginning of the pentad... Yarig had made his focus to fight in the arena games, so he could not go with the party..... and as the player chooses the focus for the dwarf.... the GM may have issues where they player may just have to leave the party.... ie a good reason to use a character tree. And if the PC does break his focus, it is no longer just an RP penalty.... the party may have just gotten a very very nasty enemy, depending on what the focus was. For instance: The dwarf in the party makes his focus to eradicate a specific gith tribe... and when confronted with the women and children of the tribe refuses to kill them. While he has done the right thing, when he dies he ends up becoming a banshee with the purpose of defending the gith tribe.... to prevent another from fullfilling it. So if he breaks his focus while the party is fighting the gith, and dies during the combat.... he would raise during the combat and start fighting the party. So there are cases where this becomes more than just an RP issue. Because the GM does not have full control over the focus, as it is player chosen.
#5 thebrax Aug 25, 2006 21:41:26	"+4 Focus bonus on all Will saves against mind-affecting spells that would distract the dwarf from his focus" Isn't that kind of like having a magical rock whose only power is a +4 bonus against getting crushed?