Let me know what you think!
Note: The southern coastline might not be a perfect fit, but it hardly plays a part in the novels at all, so there should be room for tweaking there.
Håvard
• Vanderthan – The southernmost of the Kingdoms of Karawenn. Vanderton is its capital.
• Vanderton – The capital of Vanderthan
• Rochester – The Kingdom west of the Greenbriar Forest, north of Vanderthan and east of Bedford. Home of the Blue Gorgon.
• Bedford – The Kingdom west of Rochester. Famous for its weavers. Once plagued by Goblins.
• Rockeford – A Duchy north of the Knollbarrens. Secretly allied with Trolls against Vanderthan. Home of the Bull Troll.
• Trollheights – The mountains north of the Kingdoms of Karawenn. They are home to Dwarves, Trolls, Yetis and other strange creatures.
• Knollbarrens – A hilly region in the eastern part of Vanderthan.
• Oxvale – A farming village near the Knollbarrens. Its inhabitants, known as Darymen was once known for their courage and heroism during the Trollwars.
• Graywall – The city of the Dwarves of the Trollheights.
• Graytor, Castle – A legendary castle, built by Giants who once lived in Karawenn, now in ruins on the edge of the End of the World Canyon. It is where the artefact known as the Source Lodestone is located.
• Tannyv River – The river running through Karawenn.
• Tannyvheights – area south of the Greenbriar Forest
• The Great Sea – The Sea south of Vanderthan
• Mount Rustwind – a not quite dormant volcano.
• Ice Castle – Home of the Yetis.
• The Three Hags – The mountain Tops resembling three old women.
• Greenbriar Forest – The last elven woodlands of Karawenn. These elves are likely
Shiye elves.
• Vale of Strength – magical area, created by the elves. Now the home of Elkhorn and his Sprites and other Fey companions. Located south of the Knollbarrens.
• Glade of Wisdom - magical area, created by the elves. Now a home to Sir Ira Hsiao and possibly others of his kind. Located in the Knollbarrens.
• The End of the World – A vast canyon creating a natural eastern border of Karawenn. Most likely, it is a gate to Pyts.
• Thunder Deep – Where the ocean flows into the End of the World Canyon.
• Ironwoods (Not on map) – Baron Durquessson’s domain. Unknown location. Home of the White Gargoyle. There is another Ironwoods Barony in Norwold. Could be the same one...
• Amana (Not on map) – Lands south of the Icepeak Mountains. Homeland of Earl Terrence. Home of the Black Stag.
• Icepeak Mountains (Not on map) – mountains north of Amana. Possibly substituted by Icereach Mountains?
• Halls of the Immortals (Not on map) – Not in Karawenn, but where the Immortals Pusanth and Dalliphree play out their game, using the mortals of Karawenn as their pawns. Probably in Pandius.
Timeline
(PP=Pawns Prevail, SD=Suitors Duel, DotE=Dawn of the Emperors)
BC 3000
The Great Rain of Fire. (DotE)
A meterorite, the Source Lodestone, falls from the sky. It becomes a great source of magic in Karawenn. (PP)
AC 0
Elves and Giants live in the Knollbarrens of Karawenn. Elves create settlements like the Greenbriar Woods, the Vale of Strength and the Glade of Wisdom. Fey and woodland creatures including Hsiao and Actaeons also live among the elves. Trolls, Yeti and Dwarves live in the Trollheight mountains. Dwarves build their stronghold Greywall in this period. (PP, SD)
AC 900
Thyatian colonization of Norwold begins. Oceansend founded. (DotE)
Humans from Thyatis arrive in Karawenn. Some, calling themselves the Darymen settle in the Knollbarrens and befriend the elves of the region.
AC???
Landfall founded. (DotE)
AC 900-920
The Kingdoms of Vanderthan, Bedford and Rochester and the Duchy of Rockeford are founded, settled by humans of Thyatian and Alphatian origin. The Darymen swear allegiance to the King of Vanderthan.
AC 930
The Alphatian Wizard Graytor discovers the Source Lodestone. With it, he is able to produce powerful magic. (PP extrapolation)
AC 950
Using the Source Lodestone, Graytor enslaves the Giants of the Knollbarrens, commanding them to build him a Castle on top of the artefact. The Castle becomes known as Castle Graytor. The Wizard launches a war against the elves of the Knollbarrens. (PP)
AC 960
The elves create an enchantment to destroy Castle Graytor. Because of the Source Lodestone, the spell fails, instead cracking open the fabric of reality, creating the End of the World. (PP)
AC 961
Elves, Darymen and Beasts attack Castle Graytor, slaying the wizard and all the giants. The leader of the Darymen creates the Lodestone Blade from a piece he broke from the Source Lodestone. The Lodestone Blade is passed on through the generations to young warriors of Oxvale, the main settlement of the Darymen. Elves, having suffered greatly in the war withdraw to the Greenbriar Woods. Hsiao, Fey and Actaeons take over the now abandoned elven settlements in the Knollbarrens.
(PP)
AC 974 – Troll Wars of Karawenn.
Holton Jaken is born.
Massive Troll forces from the Trollheights invade the southern realms of Karawenn.
The Darymen once again prove their worth to the King of Vanderthan. Trolls are eventually beaten, but at a heavy cost. Tired of war, the Darymen give King Dathwell the message that this is the last time they would fight his wars. (PP, SD)
AC 985
Alpha founded. (DotE)
AC 992
Ericall becomes king of Alpha and thus officially king of all Norwold. (DotE)
The rulers of the realms of Karawenn swear allegiance to King Ericall. (PP, extrapolated)
AC 999
The Immortals Dalliphree and Pusanth begin playing the Immortal Game. Dalliphree creates an artefact called the Crown of Vanderthan and sends it towards Graytor Castle. The Lords of Entropy sends their own agents lead by a Nightwing to interfere with the game. (PP)
AC 1000 The Present
Time of the events of Pawn’s Prevail. Crown of Vanderthan discovered. The Lodestone Blade reactivated. (PP)
AC 1001
Time of the events of Suitors Duel.
The Duchy of Rockeford joins with the Trolls in an attack against Vanderthan. Vanderthan is supported by the elves of Greenbriar, the knights of Rochester and the Dwarves of Graywall. (SD)
AC 1002
Time of the events of The Immortal Game?
I just reposted the main parts of the Karawenn info to the new boards. I didnt repost the very useful comments by LoZompatore and Eldersphinx and me replies, though I will try to incorporate this somehow in a later post.
Keep those comments coming!
Håvard
I'm not fond of trying to shoehorn three novels' worth of established campaign setting into the north of Norwold either, I'm afraid. Even if the kingdoms are retrofitted into mere baronies, that's still tens of thousands of people added to Norwold, a short ways north of Alpha, and given decades to build up farms, cities and other infrastructure. It'd completely change the politics of Norwold, and probably make CM1 unplayable as written.
Using Karawenn with Norwold will have an impact on the setting, though not neccessarily one as dramatic as you indicate. The realms of Karawenn are not very civilized. They are ravaged by Troll invasions and fighting amongst themselves. Also, the date I set for their founding could be moved forward in time. The only set date is the Troll Wars "16 years ago" at a time when Darymen lived in the Knollbarrens serving the King of Vanderthan. We know very little of the other realms, they might be very young or old, though I suspect that the lands of Rockeford were once part of Vanderthan, though lost during the Troll Wars.
If you make some more specific comments, it might be possible to tweak the timeline around some more to make it fit better with CM1. I will have to read up on it myself for details.
Also there is the possibility of setting Karawenn elsewhere, such as the locations suggested by LoZompatore (The Great Lakes of Brun, or the Bay of Thorin for instance), though I still prefer Norwold.
Ofcourse, Im not forcing anyone to use any of this ;)
Håvard
Karawenn Files III : Characters of Karawenn
Protagonists
• Holton “Holt” Jaken – A young man from Oxvale. Wields the Lodestone Blade. (Ftr6, N)
• Princess Danis of Vanderthan – Daughter of King Dathwell of Vanderthan (Ftr 6, N)
• Tellist Tizzit – Eccentric Mage whose spell repertoire includes fireball, lightning bolt, teleportation and flight. His spells are known to misfire though. (M9, N). Probably of Alphatian origin.
• Fenrald Falwak – Dwarven Warrior from Graywall (F7, L)
• Gazzrick Whiptoe –Halfling Sage (H5, N), probably from Leeha.
• Sir Ira – Hsiao Cleric/Healer (Hsiao 6, L) – suggestion: Cleric of Ilsundal.
Immortals
• Dalliphree (Dalli)– A fey-like Immortal (female). Suggestion: Alternate identity for Kythria.
• Pusanth – An immortal appearing in the shape of a white bearded old human sage (male). Suggestion: Alternate identity for Marwdyn.
• Lords of Entropy – several unnamed ones appear; one appearing as a human mage, one as a human whose top of his scull appears not to be completely attached, one as a Great Red Dragon (Idris?) and one as a Vampire (Nyx?). Suggestion: Although some immortals have been suggested above as identities for these Entropics, it is perhaps more likely that these are initiates given their plots’ lack of success.
• The Immortal Game: A game allowing Immortals to interfere somewhat with the lives of mortals on the Prime Plane. Even non-entropic immortals are known to play this game.
Others
• Derek Jaken – Father of Holton Jaken
• Winterbeard – One of two Yeti Chieftains of the Trollheights
• Frostcrown - One of two Yeti Chieftains of the Trollheights
• Prince Gallarath – Prince and heir to the realm of Rochester. One of those seeking the hand of princess Danis. Slayer of the Blue Gorgon.
• Prince Wallas – The younger brother of Prince Gallarath.
• Baron Durquesson of Ironwood. One of those seeking the hand of princess Danis. Slayer of the White Gargoyle.
• Lord Bluth Terragal – Ambassador and High Minister of Bedford. One of those seeking the hand of princess Danis. Slayer of the One-hundred Goblins.
• Earl Terrence Degraine of Amana – A nobleman from the valleys beneath the Icepeak Mountains. One of those seeking the hand of princess Danis. Slayer of the Black Stag.
• Grand Knight Erik Merriwell of Rockeford – A servant of Entropy, posing as a knight from Rockeford. One of those seeking the hand of princess Danis. Slayer of the Bull Troll.
• King Dathwell – The King of Vanderthan and father of Princess Danis
• Syssal Kipican – Elven Lord of Greenbriar Forest. Possesses a bracelet of alter self.
• Pallithan – One of Syssal Kipican’s lieutenants.
• Elkhorn – An Actaeon woodsmaster
• Old Thunder – Holt’s horse.
• Lancer – Danis’ horse
• Nightwing – A monster serving Entropy (A nightshade)
• Warwolves – wolves enhanced by the powers of Entropy.
• The Black Goat – A magical creature whose “milk” is actually wine. It is revered by the Yetis.
• Korth – one of Danis’ bodyguards.
• Karl Fisher – A cheese maker from Oxvale.
• Wilbert Brothers – three brothers working on a farmstead west of the river close to Oxvale.
• Nowell the Aching – Farmer from Oxvale, once a hero of the Trollwars.
• Besserel (Bess), Teressa and Cici – Some of the cows belonging to the Jaken family.
• Codwell the Elder – Farmer from Oxvale.
• Hag Biddlesome – Old lady from Oxvale.
• The Witch – a servant of entropy posing as a jeweller in Vanderton. She is in league with Sir Erik.
• The High King – a ruler to whom all the rulers of Karawenn owe their allegiance. He does not seem to interfere much with the affairs of those lands though. Possibly a reference to King Erical.
Shane
I guess there is no indication as to where the name "Karawenn" came from in the books, is there, or you probably would have incorporated it into the history? It's awfully suspiciously close to Karameikos, but can it be considered as being classified as possibly Thyatian origin? (I guess so -- heavy-sounding "powerful" moniker, still similar to Penhaligon or Hyraksos... hmmm....).
Pawn's Prevail, Book One of the Quest Triad, Douglas Niles: The immortals Daliphree and Pusanth have decided to play a game with mortal pawns. One pawn is Princess Danis, born with a silver spoon in her mouth. The other is a farmhand named Holt, born with nothing. As Mystara's mortals cannot interfere directly in the lives of mortals, the game between Daliphree and Pusanth is a very controlled one, indeed. Their pawns seek an artifact, each hoping to find it first, but the evil Nightshade is drawn to the magic item as well, coveting its power.
About the Author: Having written three trilogies (Moonshae, Maztica, and Druidhome) for the Forgotten Realms(r) world, Doug recently turned his attentions to the D&D(r) Known World with his upcoming Quest Triad. He reread the works of Lloyd Alexander in preparation for writing the triad, seeking a tone both heroic and light. Doug's other credits include The Kinslayer Wars, Flint, the King (co-authored with Mary Kirchoff) and Emperor of Ansalon, all set in the Dragonlance(r) world. He is currently working on a fantasy trilogy for Ace publishing.
A couple of noteworthy details: the novels are explicitly placed (somewhere) on the World of Mystara; and the works of Lloyd Alexander were an inspiration for the books, at least in tone. Is anyone here familiar with his work?
Shane
the works of Lloyd Alexander were an inspiration for the books, at least in tone. Is anyone here familiar with his work?
Yeah, I read them all in elementary school. They (that is, the Chronicles of Prydain) are heroic-fantasy adaptations of Welsh legends, inspired by bits of the Mabinogion.
Havard, I like the correlations you've done...especially the nifty maps. Just to throw out another idea...the "World's End" could be the eastern edge of Zyxl, since it's a sort of "Land of the X...Y...Z", at the end of the world.
Another possibility there!
As with the Pelatan location, the problem here would be the culture. The people of Karawenn are clearly similar to some medieval european people, making it most likely that they have some Known World origin, probably Thyatian.
Also, if you look at the map from Pawns prevail, you will find that it does appear as if the World's End is in fact the end of the world. However, the map in Suitors Duel (both incorporated in my version) reveals the area north of the World's End as stretching further to the east.
Håvard
Wow, I like some of this history from the First Quest books. I'll have to do some more searching to found out more about these. I like all of the Immortals, characters, rich history, etc. (good job, Havard!)
Thanks!
With the immortals, I tried to look at Immortals from the Norwold region as possible identities for Dalliphree and Pusanth. Mardwyn and Kythria are the ones who strike me as the closest in personalities/outlook and they are worshipped in that region. If Karawenn is moved elsewhere, this would have to be reconsidered, along with most of the other material, which is another reason why I'd like to keep it there ;)
I guess there is no indication as to where the name "Karawenn" came from in the books, is there, or you probably would have incorporated it into the history? It's awfully suspiciously close to Karameikos, but can it be considered as being classified as possibly Thyatian origin? (I guess so -- heavy-sounding "powerful" moniker, still similar to Penhaligon or Hyraksos... hmmm....).
I havent found any explaination for the name Karawenn no, though it may be revealed in the last book, which I havent read yet. It could be either Thyatian or Alphatian, though the resemblance to Karameikos is interesting. I also thought of the Kaaraja as a possible source for the name. Perhaps Karawenn was once home of those nomads?
Håvard
Here's an official write-up of the first book, from "Mystara Before and After", which as far as I recall, was an internal TSR document explaining the transition from OD&D to AD&D Mystara and posted by Bruce Heard on the MMB several years ago as a historical curio (please correct me if I'm wrong):
A couple of noteworthy details: the novels are explicitly placed (somewhere) on the World of Mystara;
Wow, this is cool
That should at least defeat most arguments that Karawenn is not on Mystara at all. Bruce's document really seems to be a neverending source of undiscovered information. I notice that Unicorn Hunt is also firmly set in Mystara according to that document... Has anyone read it?
Håvard
• Sprite – found in the Knollbarrens
• Hsiao – found in the knollbarrens
• Actaeon – found in the knollbarrens
• Yeti – found in the Trollheights
• Yeti Noble – Found in the Trollheights
• Troll - Found in the Trollheights
• Elf – Found in the Greenbriar Woods. Rarely encountered elsewhere.
• Dwarf – Graywall castle is the main dwarven stronghold though dwarves are also found in other parts of Karawenn.
• Halfling – Rare in Karawenn, though Halflings from Leeha are sometimes encountered.
• Giant – Giants used to the common in the region, but none have been seen in recent times.
• Goblins – These creatures are sometimes found in the region.
• Skeleton – These creatures are sometimes found in Karawenn, usually working for agents of Entropy.
• Nightwing – Very rare, though at least one has been encountered in Karawenn.
• NEW: Bull Troll (unique?) – Perhaps a troll with a minotaur-like head?
• NEW: The Black Goat (unique) – A Goat producing wine rather than milk.
• NEW: Warwolf – A wolf enhanced by the magic of Entropy.
• NEW: Blue Gorgon – Nothing is known of this creature.
• NEW: White Gargoyle – Nothing is known of this creature.
• NEW: Black Stag – Nothing is known of this creature
Magical Items and Artefacts
• The Crown of Vanderthan – An Immortal Artefact created by the Immortal Dalliphree. It makes the wearer forget who his friends are, but all must obey his command.
• Bracelet of Alter Self – A family heirloom in the possession of Syssal Kippican, allowing the elf to alter his appearance.
• Skyhook – A hook shaped item belonging to Tellist Tizzit. It can be made to float in thin air.
• The Lodestone Blade – A legendary weapon of the Darymen, made by a shard of the Source Lodestone. The current wielder is Holton Jaken.
• The Source Lodestone – A powerful artefact connected to the magic of Karawenn. Wizards are able to tap into its power, gaining great power from it. Possibly of Blackmoor origin?
• Wineskin of the Black Goat – A wineskin containing wine from the legendary Black Goat. It never seems to empty.
Håvard
Do the files suck? are they useless?
Håvard
No more comments?
Do the files suck? are they useless?
The files on Karawenn ARE GOOD indeed!
You've done an excellent research on the First Quest books, Havard! Now there's plenty of material to set adventure there, even if one (as me) hasn't read the books. Thank you very much!
I'm only in disagreement with you about the position of the whole Karawenn region in upper Norwold; perhaps I'd see it better in one of the areas previously suggested by LoZompatore (now his message has been delated...
), like north-central Brun (Hyborea borders).But this is another question: the material you've provided is nevertheless very good. ;)
No more comments?
Do the files suck? are they useless?
Of course they aren't. I think they are really useful in depicting some unexplored area of the world. I linked your thread in the Italian Message Board, I know that many guys went here and read your interesting notes.
I have some (maybe difficult) questions about some details:
1) What about the political situation among the kingdoms and the nations described in the area? Are the humans allied against the trolls? What is the relationship between trolls and yetis? Do they fight together against humans?
2) Which kind of humanoids are cited in the books? Are the gnolls mentioned somewhere? This may seem an odd question, but it may be useful in order to place them somewhere on Mystara. Some times ago in the IMG we tried to trace the humanoid migrations; a preliminary sketch of these migrations may be found here: http://it.geocities.com/lutetius/Mappe/Humanoids_Migrations2.Jpg (this work is still in progress)
3) What about the civilization of the human kingdoms? Are they of "barbaric", "middle age" or "renaissance" type?
4) Is it possible to state haw old are these human kingdoms?
5) May you include also some personality traits of the involved Immortals? With the available information, is it possible to write up a table with: sex, race, sphere, alignment, holy symbol, interests of these Immortals?
By reading your previous information I'm not sure that the trilogy has all the answer to my questions. Anyway I would be really grateful if you'd include as much info as possible about the points above. ;)
Of course they aren't. I think they are really useful in depicting some unexplored area of the world. I linked your thread in the Italian Message Board, I know that many guys went here and read your interesting notes.
Thanks! Feel free to pass on questions or comments from those guys if they dont feel like coming here themselves.
I have some (maybe difficult) questions about some details:
1) What about the political situation among the kingdoms and the nations described in the area? Are the humans allied against the trolls? What is the relationship between trolls and yetis? Do they fight together against humans?
The Human Kingdoms:
Very little is known about the realm of Bedford, the Kingdom of Rochester and the Duchy of Rockeford. The Kingdom of Vanderthan is more central to the action of the novels however. Nothing is said of the role of Bedford and Rockeford in the previous Troll War 16 years ago, when the people of the Knollbarrens joined the king of Vanderthan in the fight against the Trolls. It is possible that at that time those realms did not yet exist. As mentioned earlier, I suspect that untill that time, Rockeford was part of Vanderthan, but became an independent Duchy, secretly under the rule of Entropy worshippers. In Suitors Duel, the Kingdom of Rochester valiantly joins Vanderthan along with the elves and dwarves against the Rocheford/Troll alliance.
Yetis:
The Yetis have no love for trolls or humans, but mostly fight among themselves. Holt and Princess Danis manage to create some peace among the Yeti tribes during Suitors Duel and the Yetis help them fight the trolls in return.
2) Which kind of humanoids are cited in the books? Are the gnolls mentioned somewhere? This may seem an odd question, but it may be useful in order to place them somewhere on Mystara. Some times ago in the IMG we tried to trace the humanoid migrations; a preliminary sketch of these migrations may be found here: http://it.geocities.com/lutetius/Mappe/Humanoids_Migrations2.Jpg (this work is still in progress)
Very nice map! Goblins and Trolls are the only humanoids cited. Looking at your map, I am considering the smallest of the southernmost of the Brun lakes as a likely alternate location.
3) What about the civilization of the human kingdoms? Are they of "barbaric", "middle age" or "renaissance" type?
I would say middle age. Knighthood plays an important role in society, and there are no typical renassance elements featured in the novels that I can think of.
4) Is it possible to state haw old are these human kingdoms?
I would say quite young. The Darymen (people of the Knollbarrens) have been there for centuries, but the kingdoms are much younger. Vanderthan existed prior to the Trollwar (16 years ago), but isnt neccesarily more than 50 years old. As suggested above, the other kingdoms may likely have been formed in the aftermath of the Trollwar.
5) May you include also some personality traits of the involved Immortals? With the available information, is it possible to write up a table with: sex, race, sphere, alignment, holy symbol, interests of these Immortals?
Pusanth: An old sage with a long beard. He is wise, believes in strength of character and merit rather than wealth and beauty. He still has some chaotic streak though, allowing Dalliphree to talk him into playing the Game. He supports Holt in the Mortal Game.
Dalliphree (Dalli): She is described as a faerie, though clearly immortal. She believes in beauty, wealth and status. She is far from evil, but clearly chaotic and playful. She supports Princess Danis in the Mortal Game.
The entropic immortals are only vaguely described, though their agents are given more detail: First the Nightwing, and secondly Sir Eric of Rockeford. The Immortals of Entropy include one Red Dragon, a vampire, a human wizard and one undead type. They are watching the Game and interfering twisting the events towards their own goals without Pusanth and Dalli having any idea about whats going on. Another indication that those two are little more than Initiate Immortals.
By reading your previous information I'm not sure that the trilogy has all the answer to my questions. Anyway I would be really grateful if you'd include as much info as possible about the points above. ;)
Hope this helps
Håvard
The files on Karawenn ARE GOOD indeed!
You've done an excellent research on the First Quest books, Havard! Now there's plenty of material to set adventure there, even if one (as me) hasn't read the books. Thank you very much!
Thanks! I'm assuming most people haven't and probably wont read the books. Thats another reason why I wanted to include as much setting info as possible in these files.
I'm only in disagreement with you about the position of the whole Karawenn region in upper Norwold; perhaps I'd see it better in one of the areas previously suggested by LoZompatore (now his message has been delated...
But this is another question: the material you've provided is nevertheless very good. ;)
This is the map LoZompatore posted on the old forum:
I'm sort of leaning towards understanding that the location in Norwold won't be accepted by the majority of the community. What makes other locations more difficult to use is that there is so little to work with in terms of previously published or fanmade material on the possible locations.
Right now I am thinking about the smallest of the two southernmost lakes in the map above. Looking at the migration map from the link LoZompatore posted above it looks like one of the humanoid migrations passed through that area, perhaps explaining why there are so many Trolls in the region. What do you think? Could it work? Is anything else written on this region or neighbouring areas?
Håvard
In excange, I try to give you as much information as possible about the central Brun regions, with a couple of suggestions. See if they are suitable for Karawenn. ;)
1) The smallest lake should be the spring of the Yalu river. If so, from Dungeon Magazine #6-7 ("Tortle of the purple sage" adventure) we know that it is called "Spring of Good Health" and that it may have some connection with the Frosthaven Sea. In the other parts of the module it is said that there is not a direct waterway between the spring and the Frosthaven sea, but there should be some kind of path or connection anyway, because at the end of the module it is suggested a quest in order to reach the Frosthaven Sea starting from the Yalu's spring.
Page 41 of DMG#6:
The legend states that the Great Northway (aka the Yalu River) is a broad and mighty river which flows southward for thousands of miles through desolate grasslands. At its source, the legend says, lies the Spring of Good Health from which the waters of the great river run rich with earth.
Some say the Great Northway is not a river but a channel to the arctic waters of Frosthaven (this rumor is false). If so, ships using the channel could easily reach all parts of the Known World. Along the river's shores, the legend relates, live fierce, undeducated savages who pray for floods.
During the floods, islands covered with animals float down the river and into the sea.
Suggestion: If you want to place the Karawenn area in this region, maybe it would be nice to magically connect the great canyon of the Karwenn with the maelstrom in the northern shore of Norwold. The two areas might well be two connected gates to the Elemental Plane of Water. A lucky explorer may find himself in the lake or in the Frosthaven Sea if he manages to survive to the terrible experience of being sucked inside one of the gates.
2) About the neighbouring areas we know from GAZ10 that the biggest lake is called "The Cradle", and that it was an important stop of the great Wogar's migration from Urzud. Before Wogar, the same route should be used by the humanoid chief Ungar, who first stole the Blue Knife from Urzud and escaped with his followers (GAZ10, again).
From GAZ10, the city of Urzud should lay just east of this lake, at the crossing of the two main branches of the north-flowing Borea river.
3) From the "Prelude" article of the "World in Flames" campaign written by Heard (http://www.pandius.com/urzud.html) we know that not far from Urzud live at least two humanoids tribes: the Othwa (goblins, followers of Wogar) and the neighbouring Gronmak (orcs, a very large tribe, they are not followes of Wogar), plus some other unnamed lesser goblin tribes. Even if you don't use the Heard's campaign assumptions, I think it's a good idea to include these tribes in the local geography of the area anyway.
4) From the Dragonlord Trilogy (Book 1) we know that the whole area is sparsely inhabitated by svage humans and elves, and by a lot of dangerous monsters (unluckily we don't know which monsters they are). The dragons themsleves do not care very much about this region and they tend to avoid it.
5) From CM7 ("The Tree of Life") we know that there are some human civilized cultures sourrounding the Sylvan Realm, just east of the mountains (the Sylvan Realm is visible in my map: it is along the western coast of Brun, where I put a couple of small rivers and lakes; this is the position stated in CM7 and in GAZ5). From these realms possibly came the evil mage Moorkroft.
Remember that, from the Dragonlord Trilogy, in this area the mountians are called "Hyborean Reaches" and that just north of the Sylvan Realm lays the Dragonwatch Keep, an highly-magical abandoned castle of Blakmoorish origin that survived the Great Rain of Fire. The castle now is used by the gold dragons as a temple of the Great One.
6) In the pre-cataclysmic era the Borea Valley was invaded by Blackmoorian crusaders who drove away (in the nowadays upper part of Norwold) the beastmens who lived in the area. So the whole Borea plain was a Blackmoor colony for some centuries (the crusade lasted from 3500BC to 3200BC). From HW boxed set we know that southern elves went to live with the Blackmoorians. Probably they did not limit themselves to colonize the Glantri/Broken Lands (and possibly Wendar) regions.
From the HW/WotI sets we know that many human tribes of Neathar race lived at the border of the Blackmoor Empire, trading wealth and technology. Among them there was the tribe of the future Immortal Djaea. Possibly these tribes were located in the central areas of Brun.
7) From the GAZ5 map we know that the Ilsundal migration crossed the continent of Brun just south of the two lakes (The Cradle and The Spring of Good Health").
8) From GAZ12 we know that the ancient Ethengarians left their original plains ("at the fringe of Blackmoor civilization") that turned into a frozen tundra and that they roamed the continent for 1000 years before settling themselves in the Ethengar Steppes. The Ethengarians should come from Brun, possibly their original home was in southern Hyborea. Their roaming should have covered the whole central areas of continent (maybe avoiding the beastmen infested areas, such as Urzud ancd the neighbouring country).
That's all I know. I don't think I forgot anything else (the area is not very well detailed). Anyway, if somebody has some other piece of canonical information please let me know. ;)
Thank you very much for the info, Havard! They are really very useful.
In excange, I try to give you as much information as possible about the central Brun regions, with a couple of suggestions. See if they are suitable for Karawenn. ;)
Thanks for posting these pieces of information Michele! Lots of interesting things here. If set in central Brun, would the humans likely be descendants of the original Blackmoor colonists? Could be interesting, especially with the Darymen, who have some heroic past...
I like having some connection with Frosthaven or the Whirlpool, but not sure how to pull that one off...
I'll make some more specific comments on this post later on. I have a map with Karawenn just north of the Spring of Good Health almost ready too...
Håvard
This is interesting stuff. I think Norwold is the most likely place, actually - near enough to the Known World to be of easy use and to make the pseudo-European (Welsh?) culture of the area not stick out like a sore thumb. The comparatively recent timeline makes the idea that it was settled by Thyatian and Alphatian pioneers all the more likely.
Finally someone who likes my initial idea!
I will explore both locations (Norwold and Central Brun) and then everyone can chose the location they like for the region.
Håvard
Finally someone who likes my initial idea!
I will explore both locations (Norwold and Central Brun) and then everyone can chose the location they like for the region.
I like the Norwold idea myself, although I'm just not quite sure about that World's End area.
I like the Norwold idea myself, although I'm just not quite sure about that World's End area.
What do you mean..are you suggesting it should be removed, redifined or...?
Håvard
What do you mean..are you suggesting it should be removed, redifined or...?
Sorry- I just am not quite sure how/if/where it fits into the landscape of Norwold as we have seen it (admittedly on the huge scale maps of the region). I can't really get a good feel for what exactly it is at the moment, and how it might be able to be reconciled with the area.
No more comments?
Do the files suck? are they useless?
The "Karawenn Files" lists are applicable no matter where Karawenn ends up, and as always, the maps are nifty. I find this discussion about the lost Mystaran land of Karawenn and where it may be located, quite interesting.
Shane
P.S. I was wondering, do the novels' maps include any sort of scale (or failing that, a reference to a specific distance traveled within the text that can be correlated with the map), or did you have to eyeball it for your maps?
The "Karawenn Files" lists are applicable no matter where Karawenn ends up, and as always, the maps are nifty. I find this discussion about the lost Mystaran land of Karawenn and where it may be located, quite interesting.
Thanks! I agree that these discussions are proving to be very interesting
P.S. I was wondering, do the novels' maps include any sort of scale (or failing that, a reference to a specific distance traveled within the text that can be correlated with the map), or did you have to eyeball it for your maps?
Yes, there is a scale on the maps. As you can see from the Norwold map, Karawenn roughly covers 10x6 24m hexes.
If someone feels like making a hex map based on what I have provided, feel free. I'm not really that good at making hex maps, even with hex mapper :P
Håvard
This map shows the other possible location for Karawenn which we have been discussing, north of the smaller of the two lakes of central Brun.
Håvard
Could you explain more what the World's End is?
Shane
However, there is another "end of the world" on the other side of the planet, namely the southeastern tip of Tangor or Zyxl. the problem here would be the culture. The people of Karawenn are clearly similar to some medieval european people, making it most likely that they have some Known World origin, probably Thyatian.
I don't see that it's impossible that there are pseudo-European cultures in unexplored parts of Mystara, either descended from immigrants from the KW area, or as parallel developments. The Southold was an empty exotic grassland in the Quagmire! adventure, before it was redeveloped and retconned as the Savage Coast setting of the VotPA, with several European-style countries.
Also, if you look at the map from Pawns prevail, you will find that it does appear as if the World's End is in fact the end of the world. However, the map in Suitors Duel (both incorporated in my version) reveals the area north of the World's End as stretching further to the east.
The southeastern corner of Tangor sorta curves that way; also even Zyxl has a jag stretching out of its northeast corner. I don't know if the scale would work for Zyxl though. Any chance of you overlaying Karawenn on this side of the world to see how it fits?
Shane
Map of the outer world for reference: http://www.pandius.com/master-outer-world.png
I don't see that it's impossible that there are pseudo-European cultures in unexplored parts of Mystara, either descended from immigrants from the KW area, or as parallel developments.
It's not impossible, but personally I don't think it's desirable. You can't do that very much without stretching belief, and Mystara has already done it a lot (as you pointed out).
The Southold was an empty exotic grassland in the Quagmire! adventure, before it was redeveloped and retconned as the Savage Coast setting of the VotPA, with several European-style countries.
Southold was an empty wasteland in X9-The Savage Coast, which was turned into the Savage Coast setting by VotPA. X6-Quagmire! detailed an empty rainforest/jungle/swamp of the Serpent Peninsula, which was later filled in by VotPA.
Small error, but doesn't change the point of your post. And Shane, Thanks for all your research into the settings past, it has helped me in my project...
Roger
Southold was an empty wasteland in X9-The Savage Coast, which was turned into the Savage Coast setting by VotPA. X6-Quagmire! detailed an empty rainforest/jungle/swamp of the Serpent Peninsula, which was later filled in by VotPA.
Yes, you're right.
Thanks for all your research into the settings past, it has helped me in my project...
You're welcome...it's been fun. And, I'm very much looking forward to the Mystara d20 PDF.
Shane
Havard, thanks for making an alternate map - Karawenn's features fit pretty well here too - especially the mountains. If this were chosen to be the location, then the shape of the river on the large-scale Brun map would need to be tweaked a little.
Yes, the river needs to be tweaked to fit with this version. Interestingly the World's End correspons with some swampy area on Thibs map...
Could you explain more what the World's End is?
The people of Karawenn believe this to be the End of the World. Tellist Tizzit, a wizard of some renown (though slightly Fizban-ish) stated that he tried flying across it, but never saw the end of it.
The End of the World was created by a spell cast by the elves when they attacked the Wizard of Graytor. Sadly, the spell failed to destroy Graytor Castle, probably due to the presence of the Source Lodestone which is buried below the Castle.
In Pawns Prevail the heroes manage to force a Nightwing into falling into the Canyon, never to return.
Thunder Deep is the area where water from the "Great Sea" falls thunderously into the nothingness of the World's End.
Håvard
Thunder Deep is the area where water from the "Great Sea" falls thunderously into the nothingness of the World's End.
Hmm! This is kinda neat.
Shane
Hmm! This is kinda neat.
I dont know, is it?
I know that I dont want to see Karawenn turned into a Pocket Plane. I dont like those in general, and there is so much room on Mystara that could use these details. We'll see...
Håvard
Does the edge of Thunder Deep (where the sea cascades off the cliff) extend from:
a) north-to-south through the water (along the same line as the western edge of the WE), or
b) from west-to-east, (along the same trend as the shoreline of Karawenn)?
If it's "b", then the Karawenners must know that the world doesn't end at the WE...only the dry land ends there...they could still travel to the east by ship (just don't get too close to the largest waterfall on Mystara!). If it's "a", then the Thunder Deep must extend to the south as far as any Karawenner has traveled by ship. In this case, given that Karawenn exists somewhere on Mystara, then either the Karawenners don't have Renaissance-era navigational technology and must stay within sight of land, or the Thunder Deep must extend very very far south - like several days' sail...far enough for any explorers to have given up and returned home.
Is there any indication that there is some kind of mist, fog, darkness, or shadow which obscures the view looking east from the WE? Otherwise, barring a revision of the description of the World's End, it is mind-boggling to imagine how far off the other wall of the rift must be for it to be obscured by just the atmosphere (is this even possible?). Is anyone here some sort of meteorological-physicist savant? For illustrative purposes, if there were a plane that extending infinitely in all directions except for an infinitely wide earthen wall, and the plane was filled entirely with Earth/Mystara-style air and daylight suffusing the entire space, how far away from the wall would a person have to be for the wall to be entirely invisible due to scattered light in the intervening atmosphere? The World's End would have to be at least as wide as this distance, plus the distance Tellist Tizzit traveled as he tried to fly across it, without seeing the end of it. Also this is an indication that the rift extends very far north and south...otherwise Tizzit would have seen those "ends" of it during his flight.
Shane
P.S. Here's a Real World investigation of this question, though in Karawenn's case, the curvature of the planet wouldn't be a limiting factor (since the rift extends downward). The largest distance quoted below is 1177km (730 miles) - though I don't know enough about meteorology and physics to know if this answer is even relevant to the Karawenn problem:
How far can you see?
Still, even with those caveats, it's of interest to consider how far the eye can see under different conditions. Usually the visibility is limited by scattered light in the lower atmosphere. Even under extremely clear conditions, it's unusual to see more than a couple of hundred kilometers.
However, there is one situation in which objects can be made out at great distances: when they are silhouetted against a bright background, such as the setting Sun, or (just after sunset) a bright twilit sky.
Here in San Diego, we rarely can see San Clemente Island, about 125 km offshore. The top of the island should just be visible above our horizon with normal refraction, but it's concealed by “airlight” during the day. Even in the clear air of a “Santa Ana,” which causes looming and raises more of the island above the apparent horizon, it's often hard to make out.
But just after sunset, the island is often visible, if you know where to look. The air between you and the island is only dimly illuminated after sunset, but the sky behind the island is still fairly bright. Then the silhouette of the island is striking, even if it had been invisible a few minutes before sunset.
The record for seeing a distant mountain against the Sun appears to be the observation of a Japanese mountain at a distance of 1177 km, seen at sunrise from a ship in the Sea of Japan. (I have only a secondhand reference to this observation.)
What's the record for visibility without help from the silhouetting effect? I think that must belong to the report of the expedition led by Korzenewsky (1923), who reliably reported seeing snow-capped peaks of a mountain range 750 km away. Conditions were perfect: the lower atmosphere was in shadow at sunset; the peaks were quite high (4650 meters, or over 15,000 feet); they were covered with white snow, increasing their visibility; and there must also have been considerable looming to bring these distant features above the observers' horizon. As the observation was made on June 1, near the peak of superior-mirage season, the looming is not improbable, though the amount required is hard to believe. The observers themselves were in the deserts of Turkestan [now southeastern Kazakhstan] at a height of nearly a kilometer, where the dryness of the air favored extreme clarity, and looking across a broad, sandy depression. And, of course, much of the air path was in thinner air well above ground level, because of the mountains' height.
For less extreme, but reliable, observations, consider some listed by Commander C. L. Garner of the Coast and Geodetic Survey in 1933. He says that instrumental measurements were made in both directions “between Mt. Shasta and Mt. St. Helena in California, a distance of 192 miles.” [That's 309 km.] Apparently this was done in normal conditions, with no looming; heliotropes having 12-inch [30-cm] mirrors were used. He also credits the 1911 sighting of the Fairweather Mountains in Alaska from the ship Explorer from the Gulf of Alaska, 330 miles [531 km] away.
The ocean cascading off a cliff that extends as far as the eye can see would be quite a sight. Those Karawenners must be pretty isolated culturally/historically if they think the World's End is really the edge of the world. Doesn't anyone remember when there used to be land extending to the east prior to the Elven spell? The spell must've deleted all the land to the east as far as the eye can see, and as far north (inland) and south (across the sea) as the Karawenners have traveled since the spell was cast. In this case, either the Karawenners are unfamiliar with even the northeastern part of the novels' map (where the land stretches off the the northeast), or the World's End curves away to the northeast too, off into lands unexplored by the Karawenn folk.
Well, to be fair, most of the information we get is provided by the people of the Knollbarrens who, although they have a past of being great warriors, are basically uneducated farmers. Tizzit is better educated, but although he is able to cast spells suggesting he is at least 9th level, they backfire all the time, making him less than completely trustworthy.
Karawenners in general do not travel farther north than the edge of the Trollheight mountains (because there are Trolls there) and most civilized people stay away even from the Knollbarrens, keeping to the southwestern part of the map.
Interestingly, the coastal region of Karawenn is not detailed. Likely it is controlled by Vanderthan, but no information is given about whether there are cities or towns there, not even on the maps.
Does the edge of Thunder Deep (where the sea cascades off the cliff) extend from:
a) north-to-south through the water (along the same line as the western edge of the WE), or
b) from west-to-east, (along the same trend as the shoreline of Karawenn)?
If it's "b", then the Karawenners must know that the world doesn't end at the WE...only the dry land ends there...they could still travel to the east by ship (just don't get too close to the largest waterfall on Mystara!). If it's "a", then the Thunder Deep must extend to the south as far as any Karawenner has traveled by ship. In this case, given that Karawenn exists somewhere on Mystara, then either the Karawenners don't have Renaissance-era navigational technology and must stay within sight of land, or the Thunder Deep must extend very very far south - like several days' sail...far enough for any explorers to have given up and returned home.
Some interesting points to consider. My impression is that its b). However, it is possible that the presence of the Thunder Deep creates such violent movements in the Lake that Karawenners stay away from it altogether. Alternately, the concept of the End of the World is simply something that the farmers of the Knollbarrens believe. Tizzit's statements can easily be discarded due to his general fuzziness...
Is there any indication that there is some kind of mist, fog, darkness, or shadow which obscures the view looking east from the WE? Otherwise, barring a revision of the description of the World's End, it is mind-boggling to imagine how far off the other wall of the rift must be for it to be obscured by just the atmosphere (is this even possible?). Is anyone here some sort of meteorological-physicist savant? For illustrative purposes, if there were a plane that extending infinitely in all directions except for an infinitely wide earthen wall, and the plane was filled entirely with Earth/Mystara-style air and daylight suffusing the entire space, how far away from the wall would a person have to be for the wall to be entirely invisible due to scattered light in the intervening atmosphere? The World's End would have to be at least as wide as this distance, plus the distance Tellist Tizzit traveled as he tried to fly across it, without seeing the end of it. Also this is an indication that the rift extends very far north and south...otherwise Tizzit would have seen those "ends" of it during his flight.
I'll need to check on the presence of mist. Again Tizzit can easily be discredited. I also thought about the Gate factor being something even he could have been drawn into. It is interesting to keep in mind the facts about visual distances though. I will have to look into this more closely.
Håvard
Shane
Oops...I just thought of another difficulty in rationalizing the World's End. If it's really just a blank space (like the Elemental Plane of Air) as far as the eye can see...then a person could look over the edge of the cliff and see the sun/Ixion rise at the bottom!
Shane
I think it's more likely to be a planar rift to some other plane of existence (like the Astral Plane, or Negative Energy Plane, or Pytt). So the sun wouldn't be inside.
I think it's more likely to be a planar rift to some other plane of existence (like the Astral Plane, or Negative Energy Plane, or Pytt). So the sun wouldn't be inside.
Oh, that makes sense
.Maybe there's obscuring mist both within and far above the rift, either emanating from the plane at the bottom, or from the tremendous waterfall from the sea pouring in (at least along its southern end, and possibly on other edges, depending on where Karawenn is located on Mystara) - or both. I don't have my 3E PHB with me - but the visibility ranges for fog are given. If visibility were obscured, then the World's End would only have to be as wide as Tizzit could fly, assuming he loaded himself up with as many fly spells as he could cast. Being that it was a First Quest novel, Karawenn would likely be a low-powered setting (except for whatever magic created that canyon!), so Tizzit's probably the most powerful spellcaster there. He'd have to turn around to leave enough spell-time to return. Havard, you mentioned he was likely at least 9th level...what evidence is there for his spellcasting level? Maybe he could only cast one fly spell, in which case his exploratory flight would be quite limited. I don't have my RC anymore - what level OD&D MU would he have to be to cast one fly spell?
Shane
Maybe there's obscuring mist both within and far above the rift, either emanating from the plane at the bottom, or from the tremendous waterfall from the sea pouring in (at least along its southern end, and possibly on other edges, depending on where Karawenn is located on Mystara) - or both. I don't have my 3E PHB with me - but the visibility ranges for fog are given. If visibility were obscured, then the World's End would only have to be as wide as Tizzit could fly, assuming he loaded himself up with as many fly spells as he could cast. Being that it was a First Quest novel, Karawenn would likely be a low-powered setting (except for whatever magic created that canyon!), so Tizzit's probably the most powerful spellcaster there. He'd have to turn around to leave enough spell-time to return. Havard, you mentioned he was likely at least 9th level...what evidence is there for his spellcasting level? Maybe he could only cast one fly spell, in which case his exploratory flight would be quite limited. I don't have my RC anymore - what level OD&D MU would he have to be to cast one fly spell?
Sorry it took me so long to get back to this one. The reason I made Tizzit 9th level is him mentioning a teleport spell. Come to think of it, I'm not sure he actually cast one. I'll have to check. He will have to be at least 7th to cast fly, which we know he knows. Assuming he is a 9th level m-u, he'd be able to cast 2 fly spells.
My best offer is that the canyon is in fact a huge gate to Pyts. The Immortal Game might provide more information on this though.
As to Karawenn's location, I dont think there should be any doubt at this point that Karawenn is found somewhere on Mystara, especially given Doug Niles comments on this. The exact location is still open to discussion obviously
Håvard
Shane
If visibility were obscured, then the World's End would only have to be as wide as Tizzit could fly
P.S. I meant: "the WE would only have to a little wider than Tizzit could fly", but maybe you figured that out.
P.S. I meant: "the WE would only have to a little wider than Tizzit could fly", but maybe you figured that out.
Even from the maps provided in the novels, it is clear that the Canyon is wider than a 9th level wizard could fly using 3 fly spells. They have a speed of 360(120) and a duration of ad6+1/lvl. Fly is a 3rd level spell, not a 4th level spell BTW, so Tizzit would only have to be 5th level to cast one. At 9th level he would be able to cast 3 of them.
Håvard
Even from the maps provided in the novels, it is clear that the Canyon is wider than a 9th level wizard could fly using 3 fly spells. They have a speed of 360(120) and a duration of ad6+1/lvl. Fly is a 3rd level spell, not a 4th level spell BTW, so Tizzit would only have to be 5th level to cast one. At 9th level he would be able to cast 3 of them.
Well, in that case, if there were obscuring mist, then the eastern edge of the WE could be right off the edge of the novels' map, since a 9th-level Tizzit could've only made it a little ways across anyway before he'd have to turn back.
Shane
Here's an official write-up of the first book, from "Mystara Before and After", which as far as I recall, was an internal TSR document explaining the transition from OD&D to AD&D Mystara and posted by Bruce Heard on the MMB several years ago as a historical curio (please correct me if I'm wrong):
A couple of noteworthy details: the novels are explicitly placed (somewhere) on the World of Mystara;
I raise an objection to this point. While it is true that this internal TSR document makes this claim that the Pawns Prevail trilogy is set in Mystara, that isn't what the books themselves do.
The first book, as I recall, does use some of the trappings of PC1, the fairy folk supplement. This certainly makes it more in line with Mystara premises than an FR novel, but there are no references to tie it to Mystara that I could find in the book, although if I missed something, I am more than willing to take a look.
Rogues to Riches, on the other hand, did actually set itself in Norworld, although there is not much useful to a DM that can be gleaned from it.
I don't know if this means that material was cut to make it more generic before it was released, or if that document is nothing more than marketing hype, but the actual result is a trilogy which can be set in any vanilla D&D setting, and as havard is showing, it takes some work to shoehorn it into Mystara, because no consideration was made by the author to make it compatible.
I just received a package containing the last book in the First Quest Trilogy: Immortal Game as well as Summer Hill Hounds, another First Quest book. Expect new ideas and information about Karawenn once I get a chance to read through the former one.
Havard