If it sells well, WotC will simply continue to convert "old" modules that have become legendary in the community.
Why? Because people now crave adventures, not another setting. Look at what other companies are publishing and you'll see the trend.
If it sells well, WotC will simply continue to convert "old" modules that have become legendary in the community.
Looks like you are right, the next adventure in the series has been announced, 'Expedition to the Demonweb Pits'.
I spend between $100-$150/month on my gaming habbit. I NEVER buy adventures (or D&D Miniatures for that matter)! But I will buy everything I can get my hands on for the worlds that I play in.
I LOVE 3.5 but I am having to go back and buy 2nd ed. to get the materials that I need for the campaign settings that I play in and run!!
WE REALLY WANT OUR CAMPAIGN WORLDS BACK!!!!
WE REALLY WANT OUR CAMPAIGN WORLDS BACK!!!!
... but you can dump Eberron.
I do have to admit that I am a rabid collector, and I have every Ravenloft item ever made, every D&D/AD&D game module ever made, and I'm making good progress in getting a lot of the minis. :D
I liked the Red Hand of Doom adventure, more than a lot of the stuff Dungeon Magazine has been putting out, and would love to have Wizards continue putting out quality modules on a regular basis. I would indeed like to see them return to the campaign worlds as well.
... but you can dump Eberron.
I do have to admit that I am a rabid collector, and I have every Ravenloft item ever made, every D&D/AD&D game module ever made, and I'm making good progress in getting a lot of the minis. :D
I liked the Red Hand of Doom adventure, more than a lot of the stuff Dungeon Magazine has been putting out, and would love to have Wizards continue putting out quality modules on a regular basis. I would indeed like to see them return to the campaign worlds as well.
My husband likes Eberron, so I play it.
If I had to dump it to get Ravenloft I would without a second thought. In fact I would be excited to have the opportunity to do so. :DWe don't need adventures that's what we have DMs for!!!!
As a DM, allow me to disagree on this issue.
Between my job and family life, it's not like I have a lot of time to come up with fully developped modules (NPC stats alone are a killer these days at mid-to high-level).
Having adventures out there that I can grab, modify and adapt to my campaign saves time. So, yes, we DO need adventures! What we don't need (from a DM's point of view) is yet another optional rulebook to add to the zillion already available that will be totally unbalanced but so full of goodies that players will bug me for weeks in order to get to use it in MY campaign world (seriously, how many books on dragon/dragon-magic does one need?)
When you like a particular setting, you want to know as much as possible about it. For years, all RL fans had were brief descriptions of the various domains. Now, thanks to the Gazetteer series, we have an in-depth look only matched in quality by the Gazetteers of the Known World.
create your own world and create the thing as you need them! ^^ that's what I do...
How does that help? I have to agree with Mortepierre.
You shouldn't have to make up your own worlds. I for one don't have the time. I also know a LOT of players who have been burned by a DM who made thier own worlds. This was due to inconsistency and a lack of background knowledge. Not every DM types up everything and makes it available to their players. This can give the impression that things change in the world at the DMs discretion, it seems unfair. It also doesn't allow players to have the common background knowledge about their world that they should have. (Examples: "I didn't know we had two suns?" or "How long have elves been green?" "Does this mean I get a bonus to hiding in a forest?") If you have the time to write your own world and distribute it then maybe you should look into the open license agreement and see about getting it published. As for many of the rest of us, we have a world to game in. We just need more information on it.
As for the many flaws of the home made worlds, I have to say that all worlds have their flaws, even RL, DL and FG.
And Mortepierre, I know that, really! I DID bought about 20 2nd ed books of RL within 3 month and still haven't foud time to play in it or even read them all yet!
And sorry if you found me rude or anything, it wasn't my intention!
As for your most recent reply: you are right. DMs do have to make things up all the time. Having NPCs and a set world won't change that. It will however, make the DM's job easier. And when the game goes smoothly and the DM is happy it usually effects the Players in the same way.
As far home made worlds, it really has to do with the make-up of the group. Some people love it and some loath it. I'm afraid I'm closer to the later. If your group has fun with it though, then enjoy.
We were lucky to even get a 3E update for Ravenloft. We're even more lucky to get a complete revamp of Castle Ravenloft with a HUGE hardcover adventure. There is no way we'll be so lucky as to get another campaign setting repreive from this.
Wizards gave us new rules. That wasn't enough, we needed campaign settings.
They have us the Realms AND Eberron. That wasn't enough, we needed adventures.
They gave us Red Hand of Doom and others, big epic adventures. That wasn't enough, we wanted classic tales.
They gave us Castle Ravenloft and are following it up with others. That wasn't enough, now we want even more campaign settings.
Eh, I'm more than happy with what we've got.
Wizards gave us new rules. That wasn't enough, we needed campaign settings.
They have us the Realms AND Eberron. That wasn't enough, we needed adventures.
They gave us Red Hand of Doom and others, big epic adventures. That wasn't enough, we wanted classic tales.
They gave us Castle Ravenloft and are following it up with others. That wasn't enough, now we want even more campaign settings.
Eh, I'm more than happy with what we've got.
I'm so pleased that you are happy! :D
You did once again make some excellent points. (There was a demand for a product and Wizards moved in to fill it.) I would however like to point out a few obvious facts that may have been inadvertently lost in your synopsis. Wizards is a business. If there is a demand for their products they make money. They don't create these books because a few gamers get lucky. They make these books because there is a demand.
Have you ever heard the expression "the squeaky wheel gets the grease"?
When I see a problem I look into possible solutions (you know like making Wizards a where of the market for these products).
I don't consider myself lucky because a beloved campaign setting probably won't be supported any more and may die.
But if you are happy with just getting the adventure, knowing that this may be all there ever is, Great! If the rest of us want to throw more money Wizards way to get more campaign settings I don't see a problem with that!See, back in the '90s there were lots of settings. At one point the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Greyhawk, Ravenloft and PlaneScape were all recieving books at the same time. The result? Fans fragmented their money and everyone picked a favorite.
But books are expensive. They have to be prices low enough to sell and then much of the money goes to the authors and artists and printers. Books have to sell ALOT of copies before they turn a real profit for the company.
Look at school textbooks (university or college). They're fricking expensive! Why? Low print runs.
Now there are two settings. If there are the same number of fans buying the same number of books then the company makes much more money.
Simple math: the number of sales stays the same but the cost of authors, artists and other costs drops by 2/3rds!
Now Wizards did listen to the fans early on. They licenced Ravenloft to White Wolf. They knew it was a niche setting that would slightly cut into sales but wasn't likely to sell enough books to be overly profitable. They also licenced DragonLance to Soverign Press, but I think some connections had something to do with that.
But the market has changed. The number of books sold has dropped after people got ****** with 3.5 and the glut of 3rd Party books of poor to low quality. So the licence was re-offered at a much higher price and White Wolf declined.
Will Wizards ever print a new Ravenloft Campaign Setting? Not unless we can get enough people who swear they will buy it (10-30,000 people should do it) and who would also never ever buy a Realms or Eberron book so profits on those won't dip.
So, in other words, no.
Think of it like this: a good 150-200 page hardbound full-colour book will easily run $25+ to print. Maybe as low as $20 for mass production. Then it costs around $5 to ship the book to stores. Out of the $40 price there's now $10 left. But the retail needs to make some money, so half of that vanishes. The first 3000 copies pay for the author's work. The next 3000 pay for the artists' contributions. The marketing needs some cash. Money needs to be offset for webdesign and upkeep, managers, salespeople and the like. So 10k copies need to sell before Wizards makes a dime.
And while lots of people will buy expansion books (classes, races, monsters) most people make and design their own worlds. Only a handful use campaign settings as anything but a source of ideas.
You mentioned college text books; one of the reasons for a short printing run is for profits. Don't need to print/create new Math and History text books every two years. Math and ancient history hasn't really changed in two years.
They may also be forgetting the Players that aren't buying anything because their setting is no longer available.
Also is the setting really dead? We still have the Fraternity of Shadows and other Fan sites. While Fan created material doesn't bear the offical 'cannon-stamp' a) the plot-Cannon, like all plot, never survives contact with the players intact and b) I personally didn't like all of the cannon material. Okay fan material needs to watch its step with WotC copyright (such as Strahd and Soth....). But it's free, it's a labour-of-love from people who really care about the setting, and some of it is really good. Even without the community as long as we are still playing, running and creating adventures with our gaming groups the setting will never die.
Even outside the setting there's generic OGL/D20 material, material for other game systems and non-gaming material (films, books, comics,...) to inspire us.
(Playing the devils advocate) I have to wonder why do people feel they need a new version of the campaign setting? I will conceded the argument that it will introduce a new generation of players to the setting - and if you have no Ravenloft material buying new is probably better value than getting a tatty, tea-staining copy (missing its hand-outs or maps) from ebay. But most of us here (I suspect) are warhorses of old, owning one, or more, of the earlier incarnations of the setting. While yes four of the previous five are not 3.5 compliant - how much does that really matter? The 'Black Box' never had a huge amount of 'crunch' to it so there very little need for conversation (though that means it needs more from-scratch work instead). Ravenloft tends to a more narrative approach rather than a tactical, so much of the material is virtually edition independant.
Also is the setting really dead? We still have the Fraternity of Shadows and other Fan sites. While Fan created material doesn't bear the offical 'cannon-stamp' a) the plot-Cannon, like all plot, never survives contact with the players intact and b) I personally didn't like all of the cannon material. Okay fan material needs to watch its step with WotC copyright (such as Strahd and Soth....). But it's free, it's a labour-of-love from people who really care about the setting, and some of it is really good. Even without the community as long as we are still playing, running and creating adventures with our gaming groups the setting will never die.
Even outside the setting there's generic OGL/D20 material, material for other game systems and non-gaming material (films, books, comics,...) to inspire us.
I for one have been gaming for 17 years. I however just recently (relatively) discovered Ravenloft. I have picked up all of 3.0 and 3.5 and am working on getting the other versions too.
As for your other point I have been wondering if Ravenloft is now subject to the open license. If it is, fan site material could be published.
As for your other point I have been wondering if Ravenloft is now subject to the open license. If it is, fan site material could be published.
That would be a "no". Once S&S decided not to pay for leasing the setting anymore, the license reverted fully to WotC. They are about as likely to make it "open" as doing the same thing for GH, PS, or BR.
As for your other point I have been wondering if Ravenloft is now subject to the open license. If it is, fan site material could be published.
Stuff written by fans can be hosted by fan sites, with the general guidelines fan sites should follow about copyrights, and the mighty tolerance of WotC regarding these fan sites.
See what we do at the FoS for an idea of these general guidelines, as the FoS understand them.
---
But publishing fan material is another story, IMHO. You'd be copyrithing texts that includes RL copyrights you do not own. Doesn't work, and will get you trouble.
Joël
(Playing the devils advocate) I have to wonder why do people feel they need a new version of the campaign setting? I will conceded the argument that it will introduce a new generation of players to the setting - and if you have no Ravenloft material buying new is probably better value than getting a tatty, tea-staining copy (missing its hand-outs or maps) from ebay. But most of us here (I suspect) are warhorses of old, owning one, or more, of the earlier incarnations of the setting. While yes four of the previous five are not 3.5 compliant - how much does that really matter? The 'Black Box' never had a huge amount of 'crunch' to it so there very little need for conversation (though that means it needs more from-scratch work instead). Ravenloft tends to a more narrative approach rather than a tactical, so much of the material is virtually edition independant.
Even ignoring the crunch factor, the S&S Ravenloft material is more coherent, more comprehensive, and simply better written than the Black Box/Red Box. That's reason enough to buy it (albeit not the 3.5 revisions of 3.0 material).
I think it’s harsh to say that the 3rd Ed Campaign setting is better written, I completely agree it’s better designed, and more mature gaming material. But IMHO Realms of Terror despite its ambiguity and its lack of detail (or most likely because of these) it evokes the mood of the setting (in its tone and language) which set the groundwork making the setting as well loved as it is.
All of this talk about a new world is fine but it all comes down to the almighty dollar. If WOTC thinks that there is enough of a demand for a revamped RL world then they will but a group of employees on it and produce it. If not, then we may just get the Ravenloft mod and that is it. I, for one, would love to see a new Ravenloft world with more detail and more NPCs. But, if there is no big demand then we can forget about it.
I completely agree! I have been saying that for some time. I have I6 and the second edition version, I am still going to buy Expedition to Castle Ravenloft for that very reason. I have heard the argument that this will only encourage WOTC to update and rerelease old adventures. But if things with the Ravenloft title sell, it might change there mind about the setting.
But they did release a single campaign setting book for Greyhawk in 2000, a small book written by the RPGA to help it's Living Greyhawk campaign, the largest and longest-running campaign in the RPGA. That's something with alot more demand and attention than Ravenloft.
And it was terrible, and there hasn't been a book since.
Well, if it sells really, really well BUT the already schedualed follow-up expedition to Demonweb Pits tanks and the likely expeditions to Castle Greyhawk or the Slavelords crater then maybe, maybe, they might release a book.
But they did release a single campaign setting book for Greyhawk in 2000, a small book written by the RPGA to help it's Living Greyhawk campaign, the largest and longest-running campaign in the RPGA. That's something with alot more demand and attention than Ravenloft.
And it was terrible, and there hasn't been a book since.
Well, let's hope that the optimists are right!
