Small grayhawkian parlance question - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Small grayhawkian parlance question

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
the_ubbergeek
Aug 26, 2006 0:15:40 Background check, so to speak...

I know that the world deep under our feet is called the Underdark in Forgotten Realms. Is it still the same name in Greyhawk, or it's another thing? Something like Night Below that I heard somewhere?
#2
vormaerin
Aug 26, 2006 11:26:20 Night Below is a published adventure module/mini campaign. It is commonly set in GH, but isn't formally part of it.

Many folks use DeepOerth for the underdark, but there is no official term afaik. Since the underdark, drow, derro, etc were introduced in GH specific adventures before there was a published FR, its probable that 'underdark' was the original intended term.

Though GH's DeepOerth is more like many pockets than a single vast realm the was the FR one is in most conceptions I've seen. Only the caverns beneath the Crystalmists/Hellfurnaces have any 'official' love afaik.
#3
zombiegleemax
Aug 26, 2006 23:42:43 Actually the world underneath Greyhawk is called the Underdark. Directly beneath the Underdark is the Forgotten Realms.
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#4
ajs
Aug 30, 2006 12:28:19 My (totally unofficial) take on the World of Greyhawk's Underdark:

The "Underdark" as in the civilization of Deurgar, Drow, Mind Flayers and other races ala Forgotten Realms, does not exist in Greyahwk per se. Instead, there are pockets of mostly unrelated civilization that span the underground world in everything from tiny mining colonies to huge dwarven fortresses and drow cities.

The premise is fairly simple. In the real world, we are finding that giant cave complexes are often carved out of the stone of our world by bacteria, and only a very small fraction of these are still active. Most are deep networks of hollowed out rock, often filled with poisonous gasses, and rarely with major entrances from the world above.

In the World of Greyhawk, however, you have many intelligent and magical races that live underground. You also have a number of VERY large burrowing creatures.

All of this together would eventually lead to the purification (in terms of air) and population of these vast networks of caves, which in some cases will be connected by underground rivers or old tunnels made by large creatures.

So, I suggest that the Underdark of Greyhawk is not united enough to have a singular name. Some with call it Oerth Below. Some with call it the Underdark. There are probably dozens of names, and they're all equally correct, depdning on what part of it you're talking to.

As far as effects on the surface world, I would suggest that there are probably the most trading opportunities through the dwarves and gnomes who live underground, but interact with the surface.

We know that one large pocket of drow live under the Hellfurnaces. If we accept Shackled City's placement of Cauldron between the Hellfurnaces and the Amedio, then we can say that there is Underdark activity there as well, though, being so far south it may be unrelated, and could even be more directly tied to activity under the jungle than that under the Hellfurnaces. Jungle caves tend to be the most active in our world, and active typically means DANGEROUS. They will contain bubbles of active bacteria which produce sulphuric acid vapors, hydrogen sulfide vapors and simple carbon monoxide. Creatures that are immune to poison and/or acid would be the most likely denziens of such caves, making the various fungal creatures, black and green dragons and their spawn, kuo-toa, and the like not unexpected.

In magma-created tunnels, caustic vapors will also be common, as would fire-loving creatures. Temperatures are likely to be high, even in places with no visible trace of magma, as volcanic activity typically means that magma will be closer to the surface. This would lead to a profusion of creatures associated with the elemental planes of fire and earth; red dragons and their spawn; fire giants; etc.

In the temperate climates of the central Flanaess, I would expect extensive, but geologically dead caves which have existed for hundreds of thousands of years. These will include not just natural earth-dwelling creatures, but those denziens of the surface who tried of the sun and have escaped below. Undead such as vampires and liches are probably to be expected as well as living creatures such as drow, deurgar, gnomes, and other less humanoid creatures. The temperature will tend toward cool near the surface, and rise slowly as you descend. Temperatures a couple of miles down in old mines or deep natural cave complexes will easily reach the 40sC/100sF, and that is where you will start to find much less humanoid and much more fire/earth-oriented creatures.

Near the surface, you will likely also find a wide variety of mixed-environment creatures. Many kinds of nocturnal hunters such as bats, and many lycanthropes prefer to live underground, but hunt on the surface. These creatures may have a strong tie to those that live deeper. Either through trade when it comes to intelligent creatures, or as food/pets/protectors when it comes to the less intelligent.

The 10,000pp question is: how extensive are these caves, caverns, rivers and the like, and how much do they connect? Is there some interaction between these clans, tribes, towns and cities of the "Underdark"? Do they have ties through above-ground civilizations? Are there planar portals deep in the earth that connect these various complexes to some demi-plane(s)?

There's quite a few possibilities.
#5
ripvanwormer
Aug 30, 2006 13:03:19 We know there's an "underdark" region beneath the Domain of Greyhawk and extending into the Cairn Hills and probably the Abbor-Alz and Suss Forest. From Ruins of Greyhawk, City of Greyhawk, and From the Ashes we know what sorts of creatures are found there, too: drow who worship elemental forces instead of spider queens (from a City of Greyhawk adventure card), derro, trolls, ogres, manotaurs, and so on.
#6
ajs
Aug 30, 2006 13:20:34 In case anyone cares, I've re-edited that rather long-winded answer into my own Greyhawk Underdark page on my wiki.
#7
ajs
Aug 30, 2006 14:09:29
We know there's an "underdark" region beneath the Domain of Greyhawk and extending into the Cairn Hills and probably the Abbor-Alz and Suss Forest. From Ruins of Greyhawk, City of Greyhawk, and From the Ashes we know what sorts of creatures are found there, too: drow who worship elemental forces instead of spider queens (from a City of Greyhawk adventure card), derro, trolls, ogres, manotaurs, and so on.

Good stuff. I do think that there's room for both kinds of drow (even in a single city, though that gets touchier, and tends to create political unrest, which can be fun).

As far as where the Underdark is... based on the geology of our world, and the availability of magic in Greyhawk, I would expect that it covers far more that just those regions, but those two areas might be two of the better connected.

Also, remember that you're talking about a 3-10 mile deep region... this is hard for surface-dwellers to imagine, but try to picture a world where you lived in cities that were on mountain-tops. There might be low valleys connecting them, or ridges or plateaus... there might even be a combination. It's a wide-open maze that most inhabitants of a region might not even know the extent of.

So, it's quite possible that gnomes living under the Kron Hills have regular dealings with a colony of wererats living far under Greyhawk City through a maze of frequently flooded natural caves that parallel the Velverdyva, while a race of drow below the Abbor-Alz trade with derro under the Cairn Hills through ancient magma tubes miles below Maure Castle, and though the two are not far from each-other and there might even be some side-tunnels that intersect in the x/y of surface-dweller chartography, they might never know of each other. I'm sure if I had time, I could think of a better example, but I think you get the idea. It's a 3D world and potentially VAST, especially woth bacteria, sentient mages, Xorn, Purple Worms and who knows what else carving it out for millenia.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 the_ubbergeek Aug 26, 2006 0:15:40	Background check, so to speak... I know that the world deep under our feet is called the Underdark in Forgotten Realms. Is it still the same name in Greyhawk, or it's another thing? Something like Night Below that I heard somewhere?
#2 vormaerin Aug 26, 2006 11:26:20	Night Below is a published adventure module/mini campaign. It is commonly set in GH, but isn't formally part of it. Many folks use DeepOerth for the underdark, but there is no official term afaik. Since the underdark, drow, derro, etc were introduced in GH specific adventures before there was a published FR, its probable that 'underdark' was the original intended term. Though GH's DeepOerth is more like many pockets than a single vast realm the was the FR one is in most conceptions I've seen. Only the caverns beneath the Crystalmists/Hellfurnaces have any 'official' love afaik.
#3 zombiegleemax Aug 26, 2006 23:42:43	Actually the world underneath Greyhawk is called the Underdark. Directly beneath the Underdark is the Forgotten Realms. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :D
#4 ajs Aug 30, 2006 12:28:19	My (totally unofficial) take on the World of Greyhawk's Underdark: The "Underdark" as in the civilization of Deurgar, Drow, Mind Flayers and other races ala Forgotten Realms, does not exist in Greyahwk per se. Instead, there are pockets of mostly unrelated civilization that span the underground world in everything from tiny mining colonies to huge dwarven fortresses and drow cities. The premise is fairly simple. In the real world, we are finding that giant cave complexes are often carved out of the stone of our world by bacteria, and only a very small fraction of these are still active. Most are deep networks of hollowed out rock, often filled with poisonous gasses, and rarely with major entrances from the world above. In the World of Greyhawk, however, you have many intelligent and magical races that live underground. You also have a number of VERY large burrowing creatures. All of this together would eventually lead to the purification (in terms of air) and population of these vast networks of caves, which in some cases will be connected by underground rivers or old tunnels made by large creatures. So, I suggest that the Underdark of Greyhawk is not united enough to have a singular name. Some with call it Oerth Below. Some with call it the Underdark. There are probably dozens of names, and they're all equally correct, depdning on what part of it you're talking to. As far as effects on the surface world, I would suggest that there are probably the most trading opportunities through the dwarves and gnomes who live underground, but interact with the surface. We know that one large pocket of drow live under the Hellfurnaces. If we accept Shackled City's placement of Cauldron between the Hellfurnaces and the Amedio, then we can say that there is Underdark activity there as well, though, being so far south it may be unrelated, and could even be more directly tied to activity under the jungle than that under the Hellfurnaces. Jungle caves tend to be the most active in our world, and active typically means DANGEROUS. They will contain bubbles of active bacteria which produce sulphuric acid vapors, hydrogen sulfide vapors and simple carbon monoxide. Creatures that are immune to poison and/or acid would be the most likely denziens of such caves, making the various fungal creatures, black and green dragons and their spawn, kuo-toa, and the like not unexpected. In magma-created tunnels, caustic vapors will also be common, as would fire-loving creatures. Temperatures are likely to be high, even in places with no visible trace of magma, as volcanic activity typically means that magma will be closer to the surface. This would lead to a profusion of creatures associated with the elemental planes of fire and earth; red dragons and their spawn; fire giants; etc. In the temperate climates of the central Flanaess, I would expect extensive, but geologically dead caves which have existed for hundreds of thousands of years. These will include not just natural earth-dwelling creatures, but those denziens of the surface who tried of the sun and have escaped below. Undead such as vampires and liches are probably to be expected as well as living creatures such as drow, deurgar, gnomes, and other less humanoid creatures. The temperature will tend toward cool near the surface, and rise slowly as you descend. Temperatures a couple of miles down in old mines or deep natural cave complexes will easily reach the 40sC/100sF, and that is where you will start to find much less humanoid and much more fire/earth-oriented creatures. Near the surface, you will likely also find a wide variety of mixed-environment creatures. Many kinds of nocturnal hunters such as bats, and many lycanthropes prefer to live underground, but hunt on the surface. These creatures may have a strong tie to those that live deeper. Either through trade when it comes to intelligent creatures, or as food/pets/protectors when it comes to the less intelligent. The 10,000pp question is: how extensive are these caves, caverns, rivers and the like, and how much do they connect? Is there some interaction between these clans, tribes, towns and cities of the "Underdark"? Do they have ties through above-ground civilizations? Are there planar portals deep in the earth that connect these various complexes to some demi-plane(s)? There's quite a few possibilities.
#5 ripvanwormer Aug 30, 2006 13:03:19	We know there's an "underdark" region beneath the Domain of Greyhawk and extending into the Cairn Hills and probably the Abbor-Alz and Suss Forest. From Ruins of Greyhawk, City of Greyhawk, and From the Ashes we know what sorts of creatures are found there, too: drow who worship elemental forces instead of spider queens (from a City of Greyhawk adventure card), derro, trolls, ogres, manotaurs, and so on.
#6 ajs Aug 30, 2006 13:20:34	In case anyone cares, I've re-edited that rather long-winded answer into my own Greyhawk Underdark page on my wiki.
#7 ajs Aug 30, 2006 14:09:29	We know there's an "underdark" region beneath the Domain of Greyhawk and extending into the Cairn Hills and probably the Abbor-Alz and Suss Forest. From Ruins of Greyhawk, City of Greyhawk, and From the Ashes we know what sorts of creatures are found there, too: drow who worship elemental forces instead of spider queens (from a City of Greyhawk adventure card), derro, trolls, ogres, manotaurs, and so on. Good stuff. I do think that there's room for both kinds of drow (even in a single city, though that gets touchier, and tends to create political unrest, which can be fun). As far as where the Underdark is... based on the geology of our world, and the availability of magic in Greyhawk, I would expect that it covers far more that just those regions, but those two areas might be two of the better connected. Also, remember that you're talking about a 3-10 mile deep region... this is hard for surface-dwellers to imagine, but try to picture a world where you lived in cities that were on mountain-tops. There might be low valleys connecting them, or ridges or plateaus... there might even be a combination. It's a wide-open maze that most inhabitants of a region might not even know the extent of. So, it's quite possible that gnomes living under the Kron Hills have regular dealings with a colony of wererats living far under Greyhawk City through a maze of frequently flooded natural caves that parallel the Velverdyva, while a race of drow below the Abbor-Alz trade with derro under the Cairn Hills through ancient magma tubes miles below Maure Castle, and though the two are not far from each-other and there might even be some side-tunnels that intersect in the x/y of surface-dweller chartography, they might never know of each other. I'm sure if I had time, I could think of a better example, but I think you get the idea. It's a 3D world and potentially VAST, especially woth bacteria, sentient mages, Xorn, Purple Worms and who knows what else carving it out for millenia.