Athas.org's made some great works, but I don't want to use "gladiator" or "templar" classes for several reasons:
-Complexity, there's enough rulebooks etc as is, sigh.
-As DM, I use E-Tools to make up my characters, so I don't want to use a bunch of non-standard classes that I'd have to get/beg/make systems for.
-I find 3.5 perfectly fine for the classes of Athas, a gladiator is merely a style of combat, not some special class, I feel..
I'll explain this a bit:
-Templars are just clerics, nothing special to them except their *bureacratic* positions give them certian abilities, these abilities are not based on class or level, purely upon skills and position within the bureacracy, ie a lvl 5 templar is a level 5 cleric, but he may have more bureacratic power than a 15th cleric by virtue of luck, skills, Charisma etc (Athas.org did a good write upon templars on "Secular Authority")
-Spartacus and his gladiators ended up getting exterminated by legionaries even though in D&D terms the trained/experienced gladiators would in effect be higher level than the soldiers. The difference is that professional soldiers are *NOT* warriors (NPC class), they'd be lvl 1 to 4th fighters but with feats/skills suitable to organized, methodical warfare (centurions would be 4th to 15th level fighters as they were the best/most experienced fighters in the whole of Europe at the time, and officers would be aristocrats/experts, officers were planners/nobles not meleers). Gladiators are brutally trained and fight far more often than soldiers, so would on average be higher level but with feats for one-to-one combat, so would likely be 3rd to 12th lvl fighters. Although there were many gladiators, there were a HUGE number of legionaries, same is true on Athas IMHO.
-Gladiators would take feats like Dodge, two-weapon style etc as they like or instructed, soliders on the other hand would need Endurance (if they march/build/drill a lot), and weapon feats according to their state's and regiment's style (i.e. archer or slinger squads would require those type of weapon feats), and Shield Wall or the like, and possibly Knowledge-Engineering.
-Warrior NPC class should be strictly limited to those folk/races who don't have the spirit and training to be true "fighters", i.e. conscripts (unruly/unwilling/untrained), civic militia, goblins etc.
-Be good to see the forces for each sorceror-king or city roughly outlined in this way, i.e. 5,000 conscripts (1st-level warriors), 2,000 soliders (average 3rd lvl fighter), 500 crodlu knights (lvl 5 fighters) etc.
So, Templars I think should be clerics but what would their Domains be? Tyranny from Complete Warrior is perfect I think, it's based around Compulsion spells. But would templars be banned from having the 4 elemental domains, I'd guess so unless their Sorceror-King had a particular affinity for one? I like the Secular Authority skills from Athas.org for Templars, that's perfect. One failing I think 3.5 has is tying down class skills instead of giving a set total maximum and letting player's or DMs picking their own class skills.
-Clerics will use standard domains/abilities, the Athas.org para-elemental ones are good but I don't see a need for the odd ways the normal elemental Domains have been taken.
Bards are a headache. Athas.org version is perfect except, why would bards exist at all rather than be rogues or expert (entertainers), or assassins (Prestige class)? I think bards are a headache in normal D&D too, lol.
Athas.org's version of half-giants is much better than the pathetic one in Revised Psionic handbook etc, so will use the race rules and other things like many of the weapons.
Note I'm not getting at Athas.org, they've done superb job, I just I can't stand the official cannon! ;)
Working on a bunch of NPCs for a new DS campaign set at the beginning, in Tyr, so will probably put it up on my site when fiished as a .rtf or .doc for your fun
First off I agree Gladiators and bards should not be core classes. I actually use an occupation system similiar to the one from D20 modern in my system which is great for creating bards and gladiators using any number of classes.... and by adding a feat to allow a character to gain additional occupations this even allows for more aspects.
Templars are also an occupation in my system (which grants secular authority).... also most templars are actually multiclass... as in the original systems templars were much weaker than other clerical casters in spellcasting to start with, and this fits really well with the concept of them being multiclass. (not to mention some were not even clerical spellcasters in the fluff....)
However I try and keep the original fluff more in line when it comes to arcane casters in my systems too..... so there is NO arcane core class. I have 3 arcane classes which are forms of PrC but 2 can actually be taken at first level. (the main requirement for each is either a race or a feat.) The first is the Sorcerer class (actually Wizard from the player handbook) which can only be taken by human or elf blooded races. The second is a "New Race" mutational arcane class, which any race can take as long as they have the New Race feat which allows them to take mutations. (this class has a lower spell progression rate and does not reach 9th level spells till 20th level. Though it does grant several other bonuses) And finally a Blue Age racial class that allows races with ties from the Blue Age to cast spells in a more limited fashion.... ie the halfling illusionists.
I made a bunch of other things too and will bring them up some other time.
But frankly I think that the templar class is great to have around. Templars NEVER felt like clerics in the novels -- not in Abbey or in Denning's work. They were more dangerous in typical city combat than clerics, although clerics and druids seemed to have the edge out in the elements.
That's how we presented them, and I would not change a thing.
On another topic, Silverblade, please check your email!
-brax
And finally a Blue Age racial class that allows races with ties from the Blue Age to cast spells in a more limited fashion.... ie the halfling illusionists.
U should be cursed by the gods,
the whole point of Rajaat not using the halflings is because the halflings could not use arcane magic in the setting, with such twists of rules u break the setting in a way
(it feels to me just like ****(no intended to be bad but u just have to get my mood, i hope))
U should be cursed by the gods,
the whole point of Rajaat not using the halflings is because the halflings could not use arcane magic in the setting, with such twists of rules u break the setting in a way
(it feels to me just like ****(no intended to be bad but u just have to get my mood, i hope))
I'm not liking the idea of suggesting that there was limited arcane magic pre-Rajaat (although that's not necessarily what Seker meant).
But I don't like your interpretation either. Makes more sense that Rajaat wanted to keep halfling culture intact, and did not want the contaminated with psionics or magic. He wanted to restore the blue age. If he taught halfling psionics and magic, that would put the cultural blue age forever beyond their reach. He wanted humans to do the dirty work, and to weaken themselves in the process. Using massive halfling armies would have screwed around with the halfling culture that he wanted inviolate.
U should be cursed by the gods,
the whole point of Rajaat not using the halflings is because the halflings could not use arcane magic in the setting, with such twists of rules u break the setting in a way
(it feels to me just like ****(no intended to be bad but u just have to get my mood, i hope))
You may want to actually study your fluff before trying to curse me by non existant gods.... after all there are no gods in athas.
First off... halflings had arcane magic in the first version of Dark Sun.... in fact with high enough stats they could get to 20th level as illusionists in the original box set. In fact they specified, in the Wanderer's Journal, that ALL of the chiefs of the halflings were preservers/illusionists. (if you need page numbers I can of course provide them) Nok was an arcane caster as were numerous halflings in the various modules (dragon crown anyone?)
The ONLY version of Dark Sun that did NOT allow halfling arcane casters was the revised edition.... which I am pretty sure most would agree trashed so much of the fluff it was not even funny.
And the rules on this in the revised rules came from one, count it one, refference from a novel.... where a SK was stating why she was TOLD Rajaat did not use halflings for the Champions..... that is NOT the end all of the rules.... As that could easily be what Rajaat told them as an excuse as to why he did not.... or they could believe cause halflings could not cast ALL forms of arcane spells, then they could not be "sorcerers" in their view.
I'm not liking the idea of suggesting that there was limited arcane magic pre-Rajaat (although that's not necessarily what Seker meant).
But I don't like your interpretation either. Makes more sense that Rajaat wanted to keep halfling culture intact, and did not want the contaminated with psionics or magic. He wanted to restore the blue age. If he taught halfling psionics and magic, that would put the cultural blue age forever beyond their reach. He wanted humans to do the dirty work, and to weaken themselves in the process. Using massive halfling armies would have screwed around with the halfling culture that he wanted inviolate.
Actually that is not what I meant....
Though Rajaat "discovered magic" by studying Rhulisti lifeshaping artifacts and knowledge. (first below the jagged cliffs and then at the Pristine Tower under the tutelage of his "halfling followers")
And halflings were the only race outside humans, half elves, and elves using arcane magic in the original box set. So it might be possible that they discovered a form of arcane magic prior to Rajaat.
However I do NOT state that their form of magic predates Rajaat.... just that they have an innate skill which lets them learn a weaker form of arcane magic than those of human and elven blood can. And I have it linked to the Blue Age races as arcane magic was based on at least the principles of lifeshaping.... so it made sense to have a link to the races from that age to make a hybrid form of spellcasting that could be used by those races. (halflings are unable to cast necromancy or evocation spells.... the nikaal are unable to cast illusion or enchantment) And it has its own special features that allowed them to use life essence in special ways in relation to the magic. And it takes them longer to reach 9th level spells than a sorcerer also. (which fits with the original box set limits on halfling casters.
Oh and on templars and such I do not use the cleric class for them... I have a single special divine class which controls spellcasting.... the actual abilities a templar/druid/cleric has come from their divine allegiance and their occupation. With certain bonus feats coming the class depending on the allegiance and occupation.
I rebuilt the entire spellcasting systems to fit the fluff better and to remove the inherent flaws in the multiclassing from 3.x D&D.
I guess your idea that Rajaat might have not been the first to "invent" magic has its merits, based only on the word invent, but looking at the sheer time he took ... that does seem odd. Of course if there was psionic psychoportation to other planes where arcane magic existed ... but let's not even open that can of psurlons :D
I shared your disgust with the way that the revised edition tossed out halfling illusionists, despite Nok, and despite the halfling illusionist in Dragon's Crown. Past tense shared, because 3e obviates all of that.
I guess your idea that Rajaat might have not been the first to "invent" magic has its merits, based only on the word invent, but looking at the sheer time he took ... that does seem odd. Of course if there was psionic psychoportation to other planes where arcane magic existed ... but let's not even open that can of psurlons :D
Heh... looks like we are in agreement on at least one of the threads :D and my idea was more that Rajaat's discovery of magic (note it always specifies discovery in the rules not invention.. there is a massive difference in the words) was the first known instance.
I do not let my players know the true history of the world very much... I preffer to leave it have learned mysteries.
Personally I think it could go either way on who discovered it... the Blue Age descendants or Rajaat.... but I do not make it either way. I am leaving it up to the GM's for anyone I happen to share the rules with.
After all while arcane magic is based off the ideas of the basics of lifeshaping... it is no where near the same thing, so there is nothing to say someone else would have figured out the inherent laws needed to cast spells with life energy. So it is not a given that someone really would have figured it out prior.
My reasoning for the inherent limits on the magic types that Nikaals and Halflings can cast comes from the ideas of the sources of power each of the blue age races used and the nature of the Avangion and Dragons. (note this is my own opinions only)
The kreen by their nature would be more limited to internal energy due to the nature of the insect life and the exoskeletal structure.... So I made them more based on the nature of psionics. Note in my view the Avangion is an avatar form that shows the heightened form of the kreen ideal. (this brings in the idea of the avangions being so important to the kreen racial memory.) And while kreens have no access to normal magic, they can be altered to learn magic so can become avangions or even dragons in my system.
The halflings were the pre-iminant versions of the preserver code... in heritage and by nature.... their magic is based more on illusions and enchantments than anything else.... so they cannot use evocation and necromancy.... the 2 schools that are against the very nature of this.
The Nikaals have the least known about them.... but their similarity to the early stages of the dragons cannot be missed. So I made them the equal and opposite of the halflings. They master necromancy and evocation but are unable to use the power of illusion or enchantment. I also made them the pre-iminant versions of defilers, and made the Dragon be the avatar form of the Nikaal ideal. I also wrote that they are the creators of the Yaun-ti in athas, which really fits considering their nature.
Just a few ideas I had on it.