All first box canon makes it quite clear that only 13 champions were originally imagined. Denning, as far as I know, never clearly limited the number to 13, but, in a careful reading of the novels, it is quite obvious that 13 was the number intended. For instance, Borys' citadel near Tyr has 13 levels. There are 13 obsidian golems at the Gate of Doom. More than this is the number 13 itself, which Denning likely chose to emphasize the evil and "unlucky" nature of the champions. It is a number of ill luck, and Borys himself being the 13th champions emphasizes the terrible folly of Rajaat and his great campaign. It is almost poetic, and in the line of "properly" written high fiction.
However, all of a sudden, with absolutely no support from 1st box products, we are presented with 15 champions. Where did this come from? Slavicsek was master of this project, and indeed, as far as I can tell, all of the post-2nd box material, not Denning and Tim Brown as before, and so definately one can see how things might have changed considerably (as they certainly did).
So, with no support from previous products or novels, we are suddenly mandated to accept 15 champions, almost as if to fill the world with more than the handful that remain, because that would be "cooler". And this number 15... "15" champions does not fit the motif presented in all the first box material... as we are constantly inculcated with in those publications.
However, rebuttles could be made. Denning himself in an interview seems to have hinted that there may have been more champions, and perhaps the number 13 is only so emphasized because Borys is the 13th of the Champions. Indeed, once again, nowhere in the PP is there a specification that there were only 13. 13 simply is the highest number of which we are informed. The only game product to specify a limit of 13 is, interestingly enough, City by the Silt Sea, where another Champion is added to the list. Then again, even Abbey seems to support the 13 Champion thesis, although of course what she offers should probably not be considered as strong canon (... we should go by the rule of thumb and include only what is includable in her stories...).
Regardless of such a defense for the 15, it seems to me that, pretty much, Denning intended only 13, and this number 13 manifests itself throughout the 1st box publications. Indeed, if there were 15, where were the others, for Denning never mentions them.
Sielba and Kalid-Ma, both strongly hinted at in the first box Wanderer's Journal, were both dead. Sacha and Wyan were floating heads, and Borys and the Seven were otherwise accounted for. Dregoth's absence is to me only weakly explained by him being "off in the Planes." The others' absence is even more peculiar. One has to conceive of a rather involved and apologetic argument to figure out how Oronis evaded the Dragon's levy for so long, for if the Dragon is constantly wandering around Athas, which he certainly did, how could he not have been aware of some of the affairs of Kurn or especially New Kurn? Given how important the levy was, the Dragon and the others likely would not have permitted Keltis to simply slip away into obscurity. Daskinor's absence from the events involving Rajaat's emancipation is only potable because of his insanity, only one might imagine that his fear of Rajaat would have prompted him to aid the others (although perhaps not). Arguably, Oronis stayed out of the events portrayed in the Cerulean Storm, even though he must have truly feared the freedom of Rajaat, knowing it to be absolute doom if the First Sorcerer escaped, because his sudden presence would have been disaster for himself, his people and his cause, and perhaps he figured if the other Traitors could not handle the situation, his help would have been of little use. More than this, Oronis perhaps was not even aware of what exactly was going on regarding the entire situation, comfortably hidden away by his many layers of 10th level psionic enchantments.
Nevertheless, to me 15 is a cumbersome number, and seems not to have been what was originally intended. And unfortunately for Athas.org member Pennarin, there seems to be no room for him on a conservative list of the Champions, as presented below.
I for one however enjoy Oronis and Daskinor as additions, and their absence from the PP can be made, with some effort, to have a fair enough share of logic to make it make sense in the storyline. It is a little cumbersome however, and I could imagine a strict and conservative DM to run a campaign where the 2nd box stuff was simply and completely cut out in favor of the original flavor as presented by Denning, where there seem to only be 13 original Champions (for if there were others, one would imagine they would have come to help their colleagues to stop Tithian and keep Rajaat imprisoned). Again, 13 is the "magical" number appropriate to a fantasy saga. Denning emphasizes 13 with some regularity, and no other Champions are really mentioned. All else was added.
If there are any thoughts concerning this, I would much like to read of them.
Prism Pentad Champions (10)
Kalak
Lalali-Puy
Abalach-re
Hamanu
Nibenay
Tektuctitlay
Androponis
Sacha
Wyan
Borys
Mentioned First Box Game Supplement Champions (13)
+ 3: Sielba, Dregoth,* Kalid-Ma
This makes 13, making it impossible for any Traitors to have died in the betrayal of their master.
New 2nd Box Champions (15)
Oronis
Daskinor
*Dregoth, to me, hardly belongs within the 1st box category, although technically he should be admitted within such a list. This is because he was conceived of only later by the campaign managers, and was done so almost as if to replace Borys, the enigmatic Dragon who, in the original boxed set, was at the core of the mystery of the campaign. This to me was a cheap replacement, although I must admit Dregoth is an interesting character.
First on the issues with the places linked to borys using the number 13... as he is the 13th champion it makes sense for things associated with him to be linked to the number 13.... and the fact that he became the most evil and powerful of champions fits with the idea of the issues with the "unlucky" number 13 (personally i always have luck with the number 13 but that is just me). Borys had 13 captains who became wraiths in his service.... his tomb had 13 levels and 13 guardians to protect it.... this fits as this is the nature of Borys.
The pentad never specifically said there were only 13 champions, only that the original 13 located within the tablelands were involved in the uprising against Rajaat. So the idea of more champions is quite possible. (This would be by individual GM's choice though) But also by this idea, only the original champions involved in the uprising would be involved in the levy for Borys to keep the prison sealed. Now this may have included Draskinor and Oronis.... but as Draskinor went insane and Kurn for all intesive purposes became a ghost city... it would not be worth it to Borys to visit there for the levies.
I read the Pentad all the time as I love the fluff from athas. Though to be honest I have to say I was really annoyed by alot of the stuff changed for revised rules... but the idea of more champions never bothered me as it made sense and did not go against the pentad itself.
I think the number 13 was more emphasisied as the 13th champion of Rajaat was the one to lead the uprising and rebellion against their master.... making it a twisted reflection on specific religious books.... making Borys likened to Judas.... but that makes a horribly nasty analogy for Rajaat himself, that I personally do not agree with. It does however cause a very very very effective story for how serious a betrayal this was. And from a literary perspective it makes the story so much more effective... without ever alluding to there only being 13 champions.... it is just using the natural bias of the number 13 being unlucky and wicked that was being used in the story.
As for one point however, it would seem to me that all the Champions would be forced to choose in a sort of for us/against us fashion with regards to the Betrayal, and the subsequent imprisonment of Rajaat. This is because anyone who might have not taken part in the Betrayal would have almost certainly be viewed with suspicious eyes, and be considered a very serious liability, and therefore must be destroyed or otherwise dealt with.
If there were more than the 13 "classic" champions, they would certainly have just as much to lose by Rajaat being freed, and therefore the payment of prison levy would not only be mandatory, but quite certainly paid without too much remorse, for all would pay far more dearly if Rajaat ever became free again.
"13" could be strongly associated with Borys, and as I said before and you seconded, seker, Denning never states that there were only 13, although one is probably left thinking this is the case after an initial reading of the book (again, I would wager Denning meant for there only to be 13, originally). Denning would have had more Champions show up during the CS if he imagined there being too many more.
etc.
Indeed seker, you have some quite valid arguments.
As for one point however, it would seem to me that all the Champions would be forced to choose in a sort of for us/against us fashion with regards to the Betrayal, and the subsequent imprisonment of Rajaat. This is because anyone who might have not taken part in the Betrayal would have almost certainly be viewed with suspicious eyes, and be considered a very serious liability, and therefore must be destroyed or otherwise dealt with.
Again this goes back to the idea that the 13 involved in the Betrayal were the ones of the Tablelands. If you notice both Oronis and Draskinor are not actually within the Tablelands.... they are further out. So it makes sense if there are more Champions they would be even further out for their own cities, or their continuing Cleansing wars.... as to be honest Rajaat would NOT be needed for them to want to continue their genocides.
So if the other Champions were even further out, then after Rajaat was imprisoned it would be too much effort for not enough result for any champion to even attempt to rescue him.... since the champion would be going against up to 9 other Champions including one who is a fully metamorphosed dragon. To be honest this is basically suicide for the Champion trying it.
If there were more than the 13 "classic" champions, they would certainly have just as much to lose by Rajaat being freed, and therefore the payment of prison levy would not only be mandatory, but quite certainly paid without too much remorse, for all would pay far more dearly if Rajaat ever became free again.
They would not nessecarily have more to lose.... some may have been aware that he wanted the halflings to reinherit the world. And been all for it. Or to some, their hatred of their chosen race could be so strong that it would not matter who ruled, as long as they could kill the race.
Also by the idea that the other Champions would by nature have to be further out means that it may not have been even viable for Borys to go out to get a levy from more. (if he actually did not.... just because the SK's on this side of the Silt Sea did not know that there were other Champions/SK's that paid the levy does not mean they did not exist.)
Again the 13 seems more to reffer to the 13 Champions of the Tablelands... the ones created to hunt the races of the Tablelands themselves.... if you notice the ones that were further out (Oronis and Draskinor) hunted races which may or may not even have been prevelant in the tablelands.... Athasian Lizard men were more aquatic... and we have no idea on the nature of the goblins. So it is quite likely that their Cleansing Wars were further afield than the others in the Tablelands.... hence why their cities are further out.
"13" could be strongly associated with Borys, and as I said before and you seconded, seker, Denning never states that there were only 13, although one is probably left thinking this is the case after an initial reading of the book (again, I would wager Denning meant for there only to be 13, originally). Denning would have had more Champions show up during the CS if he imagined there being too many more.
etc.
However the interview with Denning showed he personally thought there might be more. Again it seems more likely that the 13 of the Tablelands were just that.... the ones of the Tablelands.... Athas is a big planet after all.
It seems silly to limit future storytelling.
Think about it. Fifteen hundred years of Cleansing wars. A Jihad against the preservers before that. We also have the Crimsons -- a batch of failed champions. Lots of room for story out there.
Obviously none of the Champions had all of the facts about what Rajaat was doing.
Lynne Abbey throws this name Pennarin out of nowhere at us, and she's right -- it's silly to assume that any version's going to have all of the facts.
Think about it. Fifteen hundred years of Cleansing wars. A Jihad against the preservers before that. We also have the Crimsons -- a batch of failed champions. Lots of room for story out there.
where does it state that crimsons are failed champions?
Coincidentally, In RaFoaDK Abbey has it that 13 Champions take direct action against Rajaat, thus giving reason as to why these 13 would stand out historically. She has it that Hamanu, Borys, and Sielba (3 Champions) witness the arrival of 10 other Champions, who all (with the exception of the traitor, Sacha) then go on to defeat Rajaat.
- Sacha, Wyan, Dregoth, Inenek, Albeorn, Gallard, Uyness, & Pinnarin are all named. That's 8 (of the 10).
- That leaves two unnamed Champions in this battle (and of course, Wyan betrays them all in the end as well). Almost certainly, Tectuktitlay would be one of 'em. That leaves us to choose from Daskinor, Keltis, and Kalid-ma for the last, each having strong reasons NOT to be involved (Daskinor for his mental state, Kalid-Ma for his advancements in magical study - which would eventually lead to his "tweaking" of the dragon metamorphosis, and Keltis for his budding conscious).
- Also note that Pinnarin dies in the battle, AND that Kalak somehow becomes involved shortly after those events (as he becomes the "caretaker" of the two traitors). This to me suggests that the dwarves could have simply assumed Kalak's involvement in place of the now dead Pinnarin.
where does it state that crimsons are failed champions?
IIRC Brax is the originator of the original TotDL concept for the Crimson.
:-)
Let's also not forget the unknown champion... you know.. the one who ranged far across the face of athas and only just recently completed his assignment. As I recall he makes it back to the tablelands, with his full army of veteran warriors, just after the Day of Light, Kreen Invasion, and Undead Horde all nearly wiped out every living being in the tablelands, ready to report his success to his lord Rajaat... and very displeased not to find him.
:-)
Who?????
? zmag.
I asked Mr. Dennig once how many Champions and how many Races there were, 15 ore 13. He said, in his version 13.
You didn't have to ask him that. That's what his books said.
oh my that is great
...ready to report his success to his lord Rajaat... and very displeased not to find him.
Albeit your statement was in jest, this last part - if taken litteraly - is too limited to be realistic.
Champions would know if Rajaat died. Rajaat also droped in on his Champions, or gathered them to him, or sent messages regularly.
Also, a spell or power can be used to determine Rajaat's presence/existence, and upon failure (say...the Champion suspects powerful wards preventing success of the divination) of that method than the Champion can take a few weeks off his war campaign and craft a (simple) epic spell and blast through the wards.
There's always a way to know if someone's still alive. Its in your best interest to know if your master is.
As far as I can tell, Borys needs somewhere between 7 and 8 thousand slaves a year for his binding spell(s) - and that's it. As long as he could meet that it didn't matter whether or not there were S-K's elsewhere in the world "ignoring" him. So for the purpose of this debate, I don't think you can bring up the levy as evidence for or against additional champions.
actually brax, i am not aware of any place in the prism pentad where denning specifically says that there were only 13. this may have been implied, but i challenge you to find a single instance where the number 13 is precisely and undeniably indicated as the total number of rajaat's champions. i am almost completely certain there is no such passage... if there was i surely would have cited it by now.
My point is that we can't be Denning fundamentalists, unless we want to toss out the whole game and start over from scratch, using only the Prism Pentad as the guide. Even Denning himself altered what he wrote based on Brom and from Brown. He also contradicted himself. (Hello, Nok.)
I'm not denigrating Denning; I'm saying that THERE ARE NO 100% RELIABLE SOURCES. Not Denning. Not Brown. Not God. We've got to hack it out on our own and do our best to reconcile the contradictions.
Is that more clear?
My point is that we can't be Denning fundamentalists, unless we want to toss out the whole game and start over from scratch, using only the Prism Pentad as the guide. Even Denning himself altered what he wrote based on Brom and from Brown. He also contradicted himself. (Hello, Nok.)
I am curious by what you are saying he contradicted himself on Nok on actually.
I'm not denigrating Denning; I'm saying that THERE ARE NO 100% RELIABLE SOURCES. Not Denning. Not Brown. Not God. We've got to hack it out on our own and do our best to reconcile the contradictions.
Is that more clear?
I use the Pentad as the basis for Dark Sun myself and allow in the other stuff as long as it does not contradict the original fluff and stays true mechanically to the fluff.
but that is my own version. Note the reason I do this, is that most of the contradictions I have seen in the later works were caused by people taking sentances out of context and using them to totally change the rules. (ie the crap about halflings not being able to be arcane casters in revised..... even though there were multiple instances of the halflings being illusionists in the modules and rules.... heck the fluff stated that ALL chiefs were preservers [illusionists] of the halflings, in the Wander's Journal..... and the only thing that stated otherwise, was ONE statement by a SK in the novels as to why halflings were not the champions.... which could be interpeted in multiple ways.)
Nok was a Halfling, he was created by Denning, not Kevin Melka, so no contradiction here^^.
The original creators, Denning, Brown and Brom (yeah), made this world with 13 champions, and this is how i like it^^.
Anyway, you can explain Oronis, Daskinor, even with spellgranting powers, without changing the original history ;).
BTW everyone has his DS, and this is a good thing IMHO. XD
Concerning Orinis/Keltis and how he evaded paying the Dragon's levy; I, like Dirk, feel the explanation given in the second boxed set works fine. Daskinor decided, during one of his bouts of insanity, to slay the Dragon upon it's return. Bory's not needing the slaves from those two northern city states, and not wanting to risk his neck fighting an entire army backed by an insane/desprate SK, simply never came back.
I don't think the binding spell really needs 7-8 thousand, as the Dragon seems to keep a respectable portion of the slaves for his own use, based on the information in "Valley of Dust and Fire". If I ever need to put a firm number on things, I'll use 5,000 life energy levels per year.
As for why these two did not move to keep Rajaat imprisoned, it seems perfectly plausible that they did not know he was on the virge of escape. There are also many reason why Orinis would not want to make his presence known to the other kings, and Daskinor is pretty out of it.
I am curious by what you are saying he contradicted himself on Nok on actually.
Really? I thought that had been done to death, and I don't have Cerulean Storm available.
I use the Pentad as the basis for Dark Sun myself and allow in the other stuff as long as it does not contradict the original fluff and stays true mechanically to the fluff.
Originally it was not called "fluff."
Denning's vision and flavor for the world are flawless. I've argued to more Denning color into the rules, asking the monsters team for a Denning-esque version of the Baazrag, to stat up the Lask. And of course what you do with the world history in your own campaign is your own business. But anyone trying to lock Athas.org into a fundamentalist reading of Denning-history, IMO, would be wasting all of our time, and slowing down good story projects (adventures, city supplements, etc., the sort that we most lack right now) for no good reason at all. I hope that's not what you're arguing here. Denning's history doesn't work with some great later stuff, and it wasn't even completely internally consistent to begin with. And some of it, like the sheer number of people sacrificed to the Dragon every year for two millenia, is obviously broken. The numbers don't add up and we're eventually going to have to fix that.
Really? I thought that had been done to death, and I don't have Cerulean Storm available.
oh you are reffering to the oft misquoted conversation by the Oba and Sadira on pages 280 and 281... about halflings not able to use sorcery.....
Technically that statement is correct in that they could NOT become normal wizards... However halflings could become illusionist... and as Nok was not statted in the original system we have no evidence that he was not just an illusionist/psionicist.... which is a perfectly legal class combination in the original Dark Sun system.
Also as has been said NUMEROUS times.... that arguement was written as the Oba's OPINION in the novels.... and it was based on what Rajaat had told her.
And as the novels showed multiple cases of the halflings casting what was obviously arcane spells in the early parts of the novels... this means either the Oba's opinion was wrong.... OR she was reffering to the fact that halflings could not become WIZARDS in Dark Sun.... which is true... they only had a limited manner of arcane magic.
Originally it was not called "fluff."
Do I even need to go over the fact that "fluff" is a generic term that has been used in RPG's, novels, and other literary styles for decades.... long before Dark Sun was ever created?
Denning's vision and flavor for the world are flawless. I've argued to more Denning color into the rules, asking the monsters team for a Denning-esque version of the Baazrag, to stat up the Lask. And of course what you do with the world history in your own campaign is your own business. But anyone trying to lock Athas.org into a fundamentalist reading of Denning-history, IMO, would be wasting all of our time, and slowing down good story projects (adventures, city supplements, etc., the sort that we most lack right now) for no good reason at all. I hope that's not what you're arguing here. Denning's history doesn't work with some great later stuff, and it wasn't even completely internally consistent to begin with. And some of it, like the sheer number of people sacrificed to the Dragon every year for two millenia, is obviously broken. The numbers don't add up and we're eventually going to have to fix that.
First off I love Dennings work.... there is no question of that....
However I have at NO time said anything about "trying to lock Athas.org into a fundamentalist reading of Denning-history".
I have been showing people that there have been assumptions made on the novels and what Denning wrote, and citing where these assumptions are. Which actually removes most of the "inconcistencies" people were seeing in the original novels. Also I have been stating my own opinion on the fact that I personally do not like the changes that were made to the systems due to these very same assumptions (specifically in the revised box set).
I have spent alot of time reading and rereading the original pentad books.... and finding page and chapter time and time again, and showing that most of these "inconsistancies" most people have been listing are actually things that they have read into or misremembered.
Please note I am one of the ones that has gone to great lengths to show that in the original novels there was nothing actually said that limits the number of champions... I personally preffer to leave things that were open ended like that open.... so that if someone wants to write up more champions they can.
oh you are reffering to the oft misquoted conversation by the Oba and Sadira on pages 280 and 281... about halflings not able to use sorcery.....
Technically that statement is correct in that they could NOT become normal wizards... However halflings could become illusionist... and as Nok was not statted in the original system we have no evidence that he was not just an illusionist/psionicist.... which is a perfectly legal class combination in the original Dark Sun system.
Also as has been said NUMEROUS times.... that arguement was written as the Oba's OPINION in the novels.... and it was based on what Rajaat had told her.
Bingo. Then we agree again solve the apparent inconsistencies in the works by saying that no one is reliable. You're not a fundamentalist.
And as the novels showed multiple cases of the halflings casting what was obviously arcane spells in the early parts of the novels... this means either the Oba's opinion was wrong.... OR she was reffering to the fact that halflings could not become WIZARDS in Dark Sun.... which is true... they only had a limited manner of arcane magic.
That's one spin on it. Mine is that "could" has nothing to do with Rules. Rajaat wanted to return the world to the halflings, *as they existed in the blue age.* Therefore they COULD not be taught arcane magic -- because Rajaat said so.
Do I even need to go over the fact that "fluff" is a generic term that has been used in RPG's, novels, and other literary styles for decades.... long before Dark Sun was ever created?
Forgive me for unfairly venting a bit of personal irritation in your direction. We didn't used to call it "fluff" four years ago, and it seems to me that since we started calling it fluff, as a community, that we've also fallen lamentably short on our storytelling. There's a dearth of stories here, and it did not used to be this way.
First off I love Dennings work.... there is no question of that....
However I have at NO time said anything about "trying to lock Athas.org into a fundamentalist reading of Denning-history".
No, you didn't. Like I said, you're not a fundamentalist. You recognize unreliability, and I respect that.
I have been showing people that there have been assumptions made on the novels and what Denning wrote, and citing where these assumptions are. Which actually removes most of the "inconcistencies" people were seeing in the original novels. Also I have been stating my own opinion on the fact that I personally do not like the changes that were made to the systems due to these very same assumptions (specifically in the revised box set).
I guess I agree with you there. I'd go a step farther, though. I think that it's terrible policy to set out to answer all the historical questions. Answer the history questions ONLY as the story takes you there. Writing an objective history is the best way to kill Athas' last storytellers, wherever they may hide. When we run out of stories, the world dies. Any text that answers more questions than it creates, does more damage to Athas than a Legion of defilers.
I have spent alot of time reading and rereading the original pentad books.... and finding page and chapter time and time again, and showing that most of these "inconsistancies" most people have been listing are actually things that they have read into or misremembered.
Good for you. I hope you will take it to the next level, and tell stories that play in the margins. If you have not already.
Please note I am one of the ones that has gone to great lengths to show that in the original novels there was nothing actually said that limits the number of champions... I personally preffer to leave things that were open ended like that open.... so that if someone wants to write up more champions they can
Then I guess I'm in your camp, Seker.
Bingo. Then we agree again solve the apparent inconsistencies in the works by saying that no one is reliable. You're not a fundamentalist.
nah I am not.... I just preffer to keep the storyline intact vs taking stuff out of context :P
That's one spin on it. Mine is that "could" has nothing to do with Rules. Rajaat wanted to return the world to the halflings, *as they existed in the blue age.* Therefore they COULD not be taught arcane magic -- because Rajaat said so.
I also agree with that idea to an extent... though I think the halflings (even his followers) would have different ideas on it.
Forgive me for unfairly venting a bit of personal irritation in your direction. We didn't used to call it "fluff" four years ago, and it seems to me that since we started calling it fluff, as a community, that we've also fallen lamentably short on our storytelling. There's a dearth of stories here, and it did not used to be this way.
heh, I am a major story teller and love to build stories and adventures and such... I just like to have everything mesh to some point. It is why the revised box gets me so upset. It broke the mesh in bad ways. My players love my games no matter the system, cause I plan out epic worlds and how they will function.... and adjust by how the players interact.... so I am never fully caught flat footed by them *grin*
No, you didn't. Like I said, you're not a fundamentalist. You recognize unreliability, and I respect that.
thank you
I guess I agree with you there. I'd go a step farther, though. I think that it's terrible policy to set out to answer all the historical questions. Answer the history questions ONLY as the story takes you there. Writing an objective history is the best way to kill Athas' last storytellers, wherever they may hide. When we run out of stories, the world dies. Any text that answers more questions than it creates, does more damage to Athas than a Legion of defilers.
I agree... I build frameworks for history through rule systems.... but leave the exact nature of history hidden. (like my work that I mentioned on the other thread about the nature of arcane magic.... I am keeping most of it hidden and have hints of the links,)
Good for you. I hope you will take it to the next level, and tell stories that play in the margins. If you have not already.
I have been doing that for the last 2 decades on games I run.... the story is first.... the rules supplement... and playing the edges is the fun part.
Then I guess I'm in your camp, Seker.
nah we are just in the same camp on some things... it is not just my camp or any one persons camp.... it is just a gathering of like minds *grin*
And yes, most of the problems of 2E, be it the original box, the revised one, or any other document, kinda evaporated with the advent of the ever mutable and flexible 3E.