One way of accommodating them is that 3rd Edition D&D be used as the default game language on the net and possibly at conventions.
In regard to the statement: "Possibly disallow 3E NPC characters that just can't be converted back to OD&D (although I suspect this one's too restrictive)." - I imagine any Mystara licensee having a list of a few "illegal" NPC character types (e.g. Rockborn Wizard). Beyond that, really any 3E character (whether PC or NPC) can be converted back to OD&D - it's just that the more far out ones would have to have a modified fluff/biography in addition to converted stats/crunch. For example, a Forest Elf Monk 3/Druid 3/Paladin 3 from the 3E Mystara Reality would be plain-ol' 9th-level Elf in the OD&D Reality, with RC skills chosen to reflect some of the 3E biography - the OD&D Elf might still have a penchant for unarmed combat, for communing with nature, and for questing in service of Ilsundal, but would be unremarkable stat-wise. Still, in official products, the publisher would refrain from presenting new NPCs that greatly clash with Mystaran tropes.
Plus, I added the Draeden as an example of a Cthulhoid Mystaran creature.
Shane
I see "Level 36" as a Mystara icon. So, for NPCs, I'd like to see one OD&D class level (and Attack Rank progression for Demi-humans) convert to one 3E character level. This would make Mystara a high-powered campaign. This would also require selecting a lot of skills, feats, and spells to fill out the NPC stats, but this had to be done for other worlds' conversions, such as Elminster. The official 2E Mystara Reality would still have the scrunched 20-level max that was used to convert NPCs for the later almanacs and Karameikos and Glantri boxed sets. Epic-level class progressions are part of the Core rules in the 3.5 DMG, so it's easy to justify including them as part of Mystara. For PCs, there are two official conversion schemes published by WotC: 1) in the 3E Conversion Guide, one OE/1E/2E level = one 3E level; 2) in the RPGA Conversion Guide, 2E characters were converted by XP. For Mystara, the DM and the player group could choose which to use for their party.
Shane, thanks for reposting the link to Bruce's essay. It's interesting reading.
With regards to allowing Mystaran characters to go to Level 36 in 3.xE rules, though, I think it's a fairly bad decision. The rules for Epic-level play in 3.x are almost a different game entirely than the Level 1-20 game, and a lot less robust and playable than their predecessor; several of the game elements, most notably monster advancement and epic spellcasting, are almost impossible to balance. Announcing that Mystara goes sixteen levels into Epic play is going to alienate everyone who thinks the Epic rules are lousy, and simply scorned by the players who like taking the Epic rules to whatever level they feel like.
As for Epic conversion, it's not as if we have much in the way of 36th level characters outside the 1000 wizard council of Alphatia supposed to be that level; easy enough to say you could have anywhere in the normal epic range, and anyone over 36 could just be made a level 36 person if converting backwards to 0D&D.
High level NPCs, smarlty played, won't be going head to head much anyway, so the smaller relative difference in power won't be so important.
Since we're talking about converting the 36 levels of OD&D to the 20 levels of 3E, I might just as well mention that for my (heavily modified 3.5E game), I split each of the 3rd edition levels in half (giving a total of 40 levels) and than 'squished' them into 36. So now my 3.5E games use 36 levels and level 36 still equals the normal level 20. The players love it cause they level-up more often. ;)
How exactly does that affect HP, BAB, and other gains?
My own thought on 'forbidden' monsters is that 3E critters should only be banned if either something fills their niche already (Shadowelves instead of Drow) or if they don't fit into the cosmology (Many kinds of Outsiders would need some degree of modification to fit into how the planes work in Mystara). So Mind Flayers, who can fit the cosmology and have no one in their niche, would be just fine, while, say, Solars or Pit Fiends, would require some modding or banning, as they don't fit as well into the cosmology.
Yes, this is how I see it too. At the risk of opening a touchy topic, I wonder what specific creatures might be forbidden? Does anyone have a link to previous MMB/MML discussions on non-gold metallic dragons? I know there was at least one reference to a silver or copper dragon in one of the 2E almanacs. If the other metallics were illegal in the 3E Reality, the name and location of that dragon would remain the same, but it would be converted to a gold dragon (it's still be a silver or copper dragon in the 2E Mystara Reality). I also recall someone saying that the events in the Dragonlord Chronicles open up the possibility of the other metallics appearing. I'm not sure about banning the metallics though - on one hand they are such a big part of 3E, and on the other hand, having Gold as the only good dragon may be a Mystaran icon.
As for Epic conversion, it's not as if we have much in the way of 36th level characters outside the 1000 wizard council of Alphatia supposed to be that level; easy enough to say you could have anywhere in the normal epic range, and anyone over 36 could just be made a level 36 person if converting backwards to 0D&D.
I like your suggestions:
- In 3E Mystara, character level would be unlimited, like in the Core 3E rules. Note that 1E Krynn had a level-limit, but that was removed for 2E and 3E Dragonlance.
- 37+ level 3E characters would convert back to OD&D's 36th level. However, this wouldn't be applicable for anyone but PCs, since none of the existing OD&D NPCs would be higher than 36th level even in 3E.
- NPCs would be converted one OD&D level = one 3E level, except that OD&D Alphatia's (mostly undetailed) 1000 36th-level Magic-users would be converted to 1000 Epic-level (20-36th) Wizards/Sorcerers. Some of them could theoretically be 37+, but no need to clash with the OD&D Reality when it can be avoided.
Shane
Yes, this is how I see it too. At the risk of opening a touchy topic, I wonder what specific creatures might be forbidden? Does anyone have a link to previous MMB/MML discussions on non-gold metallic dragons? I know there was at least one reference to a silver or copper dragon in one of the 2E almanacs. If the other metallics were illegal in the 3E Reality, the name and location of that dragon would remain the same, but it would be converted to a gold dragon (it's still be a silver or copper dragon in the 2E Mystara Reality). I also recall someone saying that the events in the Dragonlord Chronicles open up the possibility of the other metallics appearing. I'm not sure about banning the metallics though - on one hand they are such a big part of 3E, and on the other hand, having Gold as the only good dragon may be a Mystaran icon.
I had forgotten about the Dragons. But...don't forget the Gemstone Dragons of Mystara. Crystal, Sapphire, and Ruby Dragons are also Lawful, and thus likely to be good in alignment in 3E. (Or EEEEVIL in the Nightmare dimension)
So I think it would be reasonable to ban most of the metallic dragons, since you have some Gemstone dragons to help keep the Golds from being mobbed and eaten by all the other dragons
And the dragon rulers would displace Bahumat and Tiamat.
And yeah, I agree with your idea of turning the Council of 1000 wizards into a range from 20-36.
Does anyone have a link to previous MMB/MML discussions on non-gold metallic dragons?
It's right here in the Monster Conversion thread.
I know there was at least one reference to a silver or copper dragon in one of the 2E almanacs.
Glantri: Kingdom of Magic makes reference to silver and bronze dragons in the mountains of Glantri (not any specific one, though), and PWA1012 makes reference to a copper dragon named Vasilyon the Younger that lives in Sind.
Glantri: Kingdom of Magic makes reference to silver and bronze dragons in the mountains of Glantri (not any specific one, though), and PWA1012 makes reference to a copper dragon named Vasilyon the Younger that lives in Sind.
The article "From Hatchling to Immortal Guardian" opens up to the possibility of an infinate number of Dragon types on Mystara. Though my interpretation is that Dragon types not presented in the Classic D&D rules will be extremely rare.
Håvard
My own thought on 'forbidden' monsters is that 3E critters should only be banned if either something fills their niche already (Shadowelves instead of Drow) or if they don't fit into the cosmology (Many kinds of Outsiders would need some degree of modification to fit into how the planes work in Mystara). So Mind Flayers, who can fit the cosmology and have no one in their niche, would be just fine, while, say, Solars or Pit Fiends, would require some modding or banning, as they don't fit as well into the cosmology.
I like this niche perspective. What I would add to it is suggesting the restriction of creatures that are strongly associated with another setting. Again this rules out the Drow who (although they exist elsewhere) are strongly associated with FR. Also, the Draconians who are an iconic race of Dragonlance might not be very appropriate on Mystara, at least unless modified.
Håvard
I like your suggestions:
- 37+ level 3E characters would convert back to OD&D's 36th level. However, this wouldn't be applicable for anyone but PCs, since none of the existing OD&D NPCs would be higher than 36th level even in 3E.
Note that there are "Levels" in OD&D beyond 36th; For every X amount of XP gained beyond 36th level, characters gain new skill points and weapon mastery slots.
Not really suggesting this should be too strictly enforced when doing conversions, but it might be worth keeping in mind.
NPCs would be converted one OD&D level = one 3E level, except that OD&D Alphatia's (mostly undetailed) 1000 36th-level Magic-users would be converted to 1000 Epic-level (20-36th) Wizards/Sorcerers. Some of them could theoretically be 37+, but no need to clash with the OD&D Reality when it can be avoided.
There are other NPCs on Mystara who are level 21+. Whatabout them? I agree that a general 1:1 level conversion is much easier though, especially for those of 20th of or lower level.
Håvard
On this subject, I'd like to speak on the Mind Flayer in Mystara. Since OD&D didn't have a version of the Mind Flayer, it may be banned in Mystara. However, the 3E writeup of the Brain Collector (I forget which book that was in...was it Lords of Madness?) said that Mind Flayers are lackeys of this Mystaran icon, and that they both dwell in the Demiplane of Nightmares (the source for Cthulhoid pseudonatural creatures in the Great Wheel cosmology).
I didnt know "Lords of Madness" made references to the "Demiplane of Nightmares". Has that Demiplane been detailed elsewhere? AFAIK, it first appeared in Karameikos:Kingdom of Adventure, being the 2E version of the Dimension of Nightmares. All Mystaran, in other words...
Håvard
The only recent mention of the Plane of Nightmare, I think, was in the ecology of the diabolus in Dragon Magazine. I'm not sure which issue. A few years back, I think.
In Mystara it makes sense that all mind flayers are native to the nightmare realm, which needs more inhabitants anyway. They certainly fit in well with malferas, neh-thalggu, and the like. Aberrations like grell, tsochari, gibbering orbs, uvuudaum, cloakers, and psurlons would also make great Nightmare creatures. It would make sense to add in the quori and daelkyr from Eberron, making Nightmare something of a combination between the Far Realm and the Region of Dreams, with the added spin of it being something of a bizarro-Mystara with the diaboli as bizarro-humans.
I don't think 36th level characters need to be fully statted in a typical campaign - it would be enough to state that they're 36th level, and if the individual DM wants to tone them down it's easy to do so. This presents the difficulty of explaining how things like Floating Ar were created without epic magics, however.
Note that there are "Levels" in OD&D beyond 36th; For every X amount of XP gained beyond 36th level, characters gain new skill points and weapon mastery slots.
Thanks Havard, this solves the problem of how to convert 37+ level 3E characters back to OD&D...they're simply "Level 36 + skill/weapon ranks". Are there any official NPCs who have these extra "post-36" ranks?
There are other NPCs on Mystara who are level 21+. Whatabout them? I agree that a general 1:1 level conversion is much easier though, especially for those of 20th of or lower level.
According to the scheme suggested in my previous post (and based on JohnBiles comment), any OD&D NPC who has actually been given an official character level (whether an Alphatian magic-user or some other type) would keep the same level in 3E. It's just that the hundreds of Alphatian MUs who haven't been statted out, would range from 20-36th level.
However....after reading your post about how the term "Level 36" really means anything from "Actually Level 36" to "Level 36 + unlimited number of skill/weapon advancements" (just as a "Level 8 Halfling" can be anything from "Actually Level 8" to "Level 8 plus Attack Ranks"), another way of doing the "1000 36th-level Magic-users" in the 3E Reality, would be "1000 36th or greater-level Wizards/Sorcerers*". This would keep the one OD&D = one 3E level scheme intact even for the Alphatian MUs, and would all convert back to OD&D "Level 36" (+/- skill/weapon ranks), whether they were 3E level 37 or level 64. Now this would be a high-powered setting.
*(or whatever spellcasting classes qualify)
One problem I see with this scheme is that if none of the detailed 36th-level OD&D Alphatian MUs have the extra skill/weapon advancements then they'd theortically only be level 36 in 3E, which would make them some of the weakest among the 1000, which probably isn't the case. *sigh* It is hard to decide on what is best when it's all theortical - when the conversion system is not going to be actually published as part of a complete work. I am looking forward to the d20 Mystara PDF Gawain and others are working on.
Shane
The draconic plane
The Outer Plane dragons claimed as their spiritual home is a finite dimension that occupies a large sphere mostly filled with air and clouds. In its centre shines a golden sun that beams rays of light spanning the entire spectrum of colours. The outer reaches of the sphere is coated with vast layers of watery, mineral, or metallic matter. Gravity affects the entire plane, pulling "down" toward the outer edges of the sphere.
The plane breaks into coloured layers starting from the sun and expanding toward the outer reaches. For example, souls of blue dragons live in an area of azure skies with semi-solid clouds that they and their guardians use for lairs. Red dragons have an area of permanent twilight, with red and amber dominating the local spectrum. The change from one layer to another is very gradual, allowing for an infinite number of colour combinations. Colours belong to three realms corresponding to the alignments of each realm's souls, each realm remaining under the authority of one of the three lesser dragon rulers. Sea dragons are located in the watery layer in the plane's outer edges.
Many areas display dominant colours not yet connected to known dragon types. Dragon souls do exist in these regions. The Great One could decide to send these souls to the Known World to create new species and colours of dragons not yet encountered in the Prime Plane (purple, metallic, or mineral-coloured dragons for example).
It is clear that the few copper, bronze, and silver dragons of the Known World have been specially sent by the Great One...for what reason? Maybe as a kind of "trial run" to see how their placement in the KW affects draconic life and politics, such as the balance between Lawful and Chaotic dragonkind?
Okay, I found Traianus's dragon overview on page 21.
It is reasonable how the overview states that gold dragons are the only common metallic on Mystara, while copper, bronze, and silver are very rare. Based on the DRAGON article, for any upcoming Mystara product line, any kind of dragon besides gold, red, blue, green, black, and white (and the other Mystaran kinds such as: sea, night, pocket, and the gemstones) would be "restricted" but not "banned" - the licensee would refrain from making any casual references or examples of the "non-Mystaran" dragons beyond those metallics that have already been mentioned in G:KoM and the PWA. Individual dragons of these "non-Mystaran" types may be included in new Mystara products only if they are presented as oddities whose souls have explicitly been sent into the Known World by the Great One (and dragon species that are specifically associated with another setting would be outright banned, such as the Greyhawk Dragon). However, if somehow the Mystara relaunch was so successful that an entirely new KW/SC-sized region were to be developed in a previously-unexplored part of Mystara, then one or more of the dragonkinds might be more common in that sub-setting.
Shane
It is clear that the few copper, bronze, and silver dragons of the Known World have been specially sent by the Great One
Wow, I feel happy that, in my mind the status of non-gold metallic dragons in the Known World has been resolved by that official DRAGON magazine article. Heck, the article was even from the OD&D era! So, the presence of the copper, silver, and bronze dragons in 2E Mystara which used to annoy me, no longer does (except that the Glantrian silvers and bronzes were placed in the KW casually, without even a name - at least the Sindi copper dragon has a name). Anyway, in my opinion, these rare metallics would even be official in the OD&D Mystara Reality, which brings me to the point: what would the bronze, silver, and copper dragon OD&D stats look like?
Shane
Another adapation would be the Spawn of Tiamat and Children of Bahamut, which I suppose would be split into three different lineages in Mystara:
- the Spawn of Pearl
- the Brood of Opal
- the Children of Diamond
To give you an idea of the Spawn of Tiamat, from a review of MMIV:
More than 30 pages of the book are devoted to the coolest new monster sub-type to hit the D&D scene in recent memory – the Spawn of Tiamat.
As many D&D fans will remember, Tiamat is the evil queen of chromatic dragons. In her never-ending battle against Bahamut, the lord of the metallic dragons, Tiamat has taken to tainting dragon eggs to make particularly interesting dragon-like spawn. These colored dragonoids fall all along the power scale, come in several different colors, and have some amazing possibilities.
For instance, a bluespawn ambusher is a scaled blue beast the size of a wild boar, with horns crackling with electricity, that charges from ambush (thus the name). It may be a dumb beast, but the greenspawn sneak more than makes up for it. This green-scaled humanoid scout sneaks past sentries like a little dragonoid assassin. And the hits just keep on coming – from the redspawn arcaniss hurling fire spells to the whitespawn berserker whirling spiked chains, from the bluespawn godslayer chopping his way through every foe to the blackspawn stalker hiding in the trees like a bloated, scaled spider, the Spawn of Tiamat are an incredibly diverse group of really cool monsters.
Note that in Mystara, the Bluespawn and Whitespawn (> Bluebrood and Whitebrood) species would be from the Neutral-aligned Brood of Opal, instead of the Chaos-aligned Spawn of Pearl. Again, there'd be a "such-and-such monster in Mystara" paragraph in the CCII, along with any necessary 3E stat revisions, plus full OD&D stats.
Shane
Lords of Madness doesn't mention the demiplane/dimension of nightmares. The reference to mind flayers serving the neh-thalggu is in the Epic Level Handbook, which also doesn't mention Nightmare directly (neh-thalggu are associated with the Far Realm instead).
You're right, I misremembered. The Far Realm is the source of pseudonatural creatures in the Great Wheel cosmology. I mistakenly conflated my memory of the Diabolus article with the Neh-thalggu writeup.
The only recent mention of the Plane of Nightmare, I think, was in the ecology of the diabolus in Dragon Magazine. I'm not sure which issue. A few years back, I think.
Right, as far as I recall, the article stated that the Diaboli live in the Region of Dreams (or was it the Plane of Nightmares?), but that the Far Realm bleeds into their homeplane...so that the Diaboli are on constant guard against the pseudonatural Lovecraftian creatures that come through. Though of course the Diaboli are originally from the Gold Box, the DRAGON article is written for the default Core cosmology, not specifically for Mystara, so there's no reason why certain features that don't quite mesh with official Mystaran cosmology shouldn't be tweaked for Mystara, such as melding the features of the Great Wheel's Far Realm and Region of Dreams into a single Nightmare Dimension (as you stated). By the way, the term "Demiplane of Nightmares" is a 2E Planescape term, and is only applicable to the 2E Mystara Reality.
In Mystara it makes sense that all mind flayers are native to the nightmare realm, which needs more inhabitants anyway. They certainly fit in well with malferas, neh-thalggu, and the like. Aberrations like grell, tsochari, gibbering orbs, uvuudaum, cloakers, and psurlons would also make great Nightmare creatures. It would make sense to add in the quori and daelkyr from Eberron, making Nightmare something of a combination between the Far Realm and the Region of Dreams, with the added spin of it being something of a bizarro-Mystara with the diaboli as bizarro-humans.
I like this summary of the makeup of the Nightmare Dimension. There's also the nifty Pseudonatural Creature template which would fit alongside a new Nightmare Creature template (Bizarro-switched alignment, poisonous natural weapon, diabolical/fiendish appearance).
Shane
)...the Dark Elves of the Northern Reaches Gazetteer. They are from the plane of Svartalfheim. In the Great Wheel cosmology, Svartalfheim is a realm within Nidavellir, which is one of three layers of Ysgard, the home of the Norse pantheon - the other two layers being Ysgard proper (containing the realm of Asgard), and Muspelheim. Here's a map showing Nidavellir within Ysgard. In the Mystaran cosmology, Svartalfheim would be just another of the myriad of Outer Planes floating in the Astral. Here is a quote from Planewalker.com:Svartalfheim, a realm in Nidavellir, is home to the svartalfar, also known as dock-alfar or dark elves. They are similar in appearance to the dark elves or drow of the Prime Material and the Abyss, but neutral in alignment. Many are powerful runecasters, enchanters, and illusionists. They have a culture similar to that of the Norsemen, but more unpredictable, contrary and fey.
These elves are refreshingly different from Oerth's and Faerun's Drow, but maybe not evil enough to represent the Life-binding Svartalfar of Mystara. Maybe they need to be something like a fiendish CE or NE Forest Elf (or Shadowelf?) with Norse culture. Also, I wonder if they should have dark skin or not? In any case, they wouldn't have anything to do with spiders, Lolth and such.
Likewise, there are the High Elves (or were they called Light Elves in the Gazetteer?) from the plane of Alfheim. In the Great Wheel, Alfheim is a realm within the Ysgard layer of Ysgard, while in Mystara, it would be a separate Outer Plane. I imagine the High Elves are something like celestial forest elves. Here's a description of the Great Wheel version of Alfheim:
Alfheim: Elven petitioners populate this brilliant, sunlit region, as does a contingent of mortal elves. Alfheim is suffused with light and joy, and visitors cannot help but be buoyed by the happiness in the air. The lands are wild and beautiful, untouched by civilization. Wildlife is plentiful, and natural features such as streams, forests, and sunny hills are likewise bountiful. The elven natives are friendly, but they care little for anything but games and meditative appreciation of their natural surroundings. While many elves live in harmony with nature among the trees and fields of the surface, some elves abide in glittering caves below the surface of Alfheim. Alfheim has seasons. Summers are long and kind, and its winters are dark and unforgiving. During winter, the elves retreat into the glittering caves, the entrances to which are sealed off and buried during the season of snows.
In any case, both the Svartalfar and the Haralfar or Ljosalfar would be Norse-flavored, and would have powers and cultures based on RW Norse myth, like the new 3E Midgard Dwarf.
Shane
P.S. As far as the dark-skinned elf on the Gazetteer cover...I like the suggestion that was made that the picture really represents how Shadowelves use a black-colored herbal conconction to protect themselves from sunlight during surface forays. Of course, it's merely a rationalization of the art director's mistake, but I think it's clever. I don't feel so offended, since the same mistake was made for Dragonlance too...Dalamar the Dark Elf wizard was once pictured with a Drow's black skin.
I didnt know "Lords of Madness" made references to the "Demiplane of Nightmares". Has that Demiplane been detailed elsewhere? AFAIK, it first appeared in Karameikos:Kingdom of Adventure, being the 2E version of the Dimension of Nightmares. All Mystaran, in other words...
I see two possibilities:
- The "Demiplane of Nightmares" originated as an attempt to include and convert the OD&D Mystaran Nightmare Dimension into the 2E Planescape setting.
- The "Demiplane of Nightmares" was already included in the 1E Manual of the Planes, and just happened to have a similar name as the OD&D Nightmare Dimension, in which case they were melded into the 2E Great Wheel version...or more simply, the author of K:KoA just figured the DoN was the closest Great Wheel equivalent and substituted that term for "Nightmare Dimension".
I have a vague recollection that the second scenario is what happened - that the DoN was in 1E (or early 2E Planescape products), simply an evil version of the Demiplane of Dreams, having nothing to do with the Diaboli or Malfera, nor having any special connection to the Lovecrafting/Cthulhu Far Realm plane, which was first mentioned in the 2E module Gates of Firestorm Peak. I may be misremembering though
.In any case, whether the DoN originated with Mystara or if it was a parallel development from 1E MotP, the DoN has become an established part of the Great Wheel. Here's a reference to its connection to Toril from Lost Empires of Faerun:
-681 Year of Nightmares: Netherese arcanists emigrate to the Demiplane of Nightmares. The magical energies of that nightmarish realm transform their descendants into an assortment of horribly twisted creatures known as the Night Parade.
Shane
It wasn't mentioned in Planescape until 1998, in A Guide to the Ethereal Plane.
The Demiplane of Nightmares did not exist in 1e. It first appeared in 2e Mystara products (it's mentioned in a number of places in the Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix) as an attempt to convert the Dimension of Nightmares to the AD&D cosmology. This was back in 1994 - I'm not sure if the Planescape boxed set had come out yet or not, but it was the same year.
It wasn't mentioned in Planescape until 1998, in A Guide to the Ethereal Plane.
Thanks for the clarification. In that case, since the DoN is a Mystaran original ported into the Core/Great Wheel cosmology (like the aranea and nightshade), we could snag anything that has ever been said about the DoN in any 2E or 3E product and claim it for Mystara's Nightmare Dimension, as long as it wasn't explicitly connnected to another setting. For example, since 3E FR's DoN is in a different cosmology than 3E Mystara's Nightmare Dimension, the Netherese from the above quote wouldn't have actually visited Mystara's ND, but any details of the powers or beings that warped them into the Night Parade could be ported back into the Mystaran version. Presumably, the same thing could happen to Mystaran visitors to the Nightmare Dimension.
Shane
Another touchy topic, perhaps one that's been discussed enough (if so, please ignore this post )...the Dark Elves of the Northern Reaches Gazetteer. They are from the plane of Svartalfheim.
Well, the GAZF "official";) line about Dark Elves is that they were members of the Geffronell elves on the Denagothian Plateau who learned the life-stealing and life-binding side of magic so as to fight Denagothian raiders. This is what makes them "dark" - appearancewise, they are standard fair-complexion wood elves (ala Kurse from the old Thor comic books).
The Dark elves were banished after a wide ranging war with the Light Elves (i.e. the Geffronell). Antalian groups picked up stories of this war. At some point, the Moulder dwarves made contact with the imprisoned elves, learning their secrets and then binding (all of?) them in the ring/table in Ostland.
I never explicitly made Svartalfheim the prison plane, but they had a few centuries to a) breed, and b) conquer the native elves of the plane.
While I don't see the need to shoehorn other worlds' cosmologies, Svartalfheim can be viewed as a "part" of Nidavellir by making it's boundary accessible only from within Nidavellir/Swergheim. It would then stand to reason that dwarves researching magic and otherworldly things would discover them.
-OldDawg
Well, the GAZF "official";) line about Dark Elves is that they were members of the Geffronell elves on the Denagothian Plateau who learned the life-stealing and life-binding side of magic so as to fight Denagothian raiders. This is what makes them "dark" - appearancewise, they are standard fair-complexion wood elves (ala Kurse from the old Thor comic books).
Cool on the visualization there! I agree that the dark in darkelf (or indeed Svartalf, Svart=Black) should be associated with attitude rather than skin color. Norse people actually referred to dark skinned people as "blue", believing their skin color to be a dark shade of blue.
The Dark elves were banished after a wide ranging war with the Light Elves (i.e. the Geffronell). Antalian groups picked up stories of this war. At some point, the Moulder dwarves made contact with the imprisoned elves, learning their secrets and then binding (all of?) them in the ring/table in Ostland.
I never explicitly made Svartalfheim the prison plane, but they had a few centuries to a) breed, and b) conquer the native elves of the plane.
IMC, I have always associated the Svartalfar with Loki. Perhaps he helped them make Svartalfheim a plane of their own? I like the explaination of the Morigsverg/Dark Elf connection BTW!
As with the Loki thing, perhaps some of the Geffronel/Light elves were invited by Odin and Freyj to become their servants and dwell in the Alfheim of the Norse planes, or Ljosalfheim as it is called IMC.
Håvard
How exactly does that affect HP, BAB, and other gains?
Sorry for the delay in replying; your post got buried rather quickly in this thread!
HP: I use fixed hp gains (along with a wound point system based on the one from unearthed arcana). The players really like the idea of fixed hp gains and the variablity is based solely on constitution. I have also reverted to the OD&D mindset of 'name level', where above level nine the hp gain is generally 1/level along with some wound point gains here and there. Con bonuses no longer apply above name level as well.
BAB: Again, I've altered things, but simply use a progession chart based on 'good', average', or 'poor' BAB. Good BAB improves every 2 levels, average BAB improves every 3 levels, and Poor BAB improves every 4 levels.
Other gains: The method I used was 'double the level minus 1 for every 5 original levels'; so level 8 became 8x2-1=15, level 20 became 20x2-4=36. If a level had more than one benefit I often split them between the two levels. (Clerics don't gain spells until level 2 once again! :D ).