I'm quite aware that paladins (or more specifically, default paladins, I'm aware of Xlorep's ideas on variant paladins) have no place culturally on post-Cleansing Wars Athas. After all, the extremely rare individual crazy enough to be a crusading do-gooder probably finds a much-quicker-than-usual death.
My question is: Is there anything physically preventing the existance of paladins? More specifically, if a paladin from another world managed somehow to get to Athas, would he/she be affected by the Gray like clerics are? Could there have been paladins on Athas pre-Cleansing Wars? If not, do you think ardents (with appropriate mantles) might have filled that role during the Green Age, much like several of you have suggested that divine minds might have filled the role of religious officials during that time?
As for game mechanics, a paladin has no need in gods.
For that matter neither do clerics. Clerics can be dedicated to a cause, ideal, or alignment. What would happen if a cleric dedicated to an ideal was beamed on to Athas?
On topic, I think a paladin would probably lose access to his spell list, but would keep his other class abilities, with the possible exemption of his special mount.
Could there have been paladins on Athas pre-Cleansing Wars?
Since we know next to nothing about the cultures of the Green Age, it is entirely possible there were paladins. The idea of a group of gnomish paladins making one last stand to defend the final group of gnomes, has a certain poignancy and "feels" like Darksun. I imagine that if there were orders of paladins, they would have been pretty high on Rajaat's hit list. Can anyone say, "Rajaat's champion #43: Porthos the Paladin Punker."
but would keep his other class abilities, with the possible exemption of his special mount.
How will he do the "lay on hands". Where does the energy come from then?
As for Green Age paladins, weren't Jor'osh and Sa'ram dwarven knights? That sounds quite paladinlike.
How will he do the "lay on hands". Where does the energy come from then?
A paladin channels energy from the positive energy plane when he uses lay on hands, just like a cleric turning undead or spontaneously casting cure spells. The same goes for his cure disease ability. The detect evil and smite evil abilities are open questions though. Are they innate abilities due to training, like a bard's music or are they the result of channeled power?
and a knight in the middle ages was far from "HOLY" so a dwarf being a knight does not make him a palladin
and a knight in the middle ages was far from "HOLY" so a dwarf being a knight does not make him a palladin
I'm not sure about what you mean by this. Old 2nd ed. AD&D's Historical Reference Series The Crusades and Charlemagne's Paladins most certainly featured the Paladin class, and they described Earth's Middle Ages.
If you are saying that the dwarves being described as "knights" is no absolute proof that they were Paladins... then, yes, of course, you are right. But it is evidence that the concept of "knight" existed in the Green Age, though it surely wasn't identical to the Forgotten Realms definition.
What I was trying to say is that paladinlike warriors may have existed in Athas' past. See Kael's suggestion a couple posts up for a possible example. Even Athas.org's ds3 seems to suggest this:
During the Green Age, psychic warriors were associated in brotherhoods of knights, but this sense of brotherhood between psychic warriors was lost ages before the oceans and forests turned to dust.
I'm not sure about what you mean by this. Old 2nd ed. AD&D's Historical Reference Series The Crusades and Charlemagne's Paladins most certainly featured the Paladin class, and they described Earth's Middle Ages.
thats theyre interpretation of the "real historical" world, wich i do not need to agree with anyway, i dont think in any real world those boorish men on horses (noble's), were made to be named "knights" because the church deemed it so needed, not because the were at all so virtuos...
the catholic church needed power against said nobles and threatend them with expulsion from the aftellife, and those "boorish" nobles believed the propagandan of the church for reality in what they could do with theyre power.. so they abided the church laws and such, thats when the church in return for that "servitude" gave them titles..
this is all political, nothing noble and palladine like about it.
Look for it in the Forum Archive sticked on the main page.
Xlorep created a worthwhile athasian version of the paladin, this time dedicated to the cause of a sorcerer-king.
Look for it in the Forum Archive sticked on the main page.
i do not think u should hammer a class into a setting where it has no place what-so-ever, u take the essence from the class and u also take essence from the setting as well.
a psionic version of a monk i could dig in this setting as it melds with the psionic attitude of contemplation and such, but not the palladin, in his self-righteous attitude
But anyway, I disgress.
i do not think u should hammer a class into a setting where it has no place what-so-ever, u take the essence from the class and u also take essence from the setting as well.
Er..., in that optic, then, elves have been horribly mistreated by the setting. So have halflings.
Er..., in that optic, then, elves have been horribly mistreated by the setting. So have halflings.
No, and why?, the setting never had "palladins" and u should not twist this around by saying u could adjust the story to fit the class.
elves were in it right from the start, and so were halflings, albeit with a twist of story(not completely, as feral elves and halflings also exist in Faeruhn) to the race itself.
palladins never were part of this setting, and to change that because the system has changed is rediculous in my opinion (if this was one of your thoughts).
as i said already, there was a version of a psionic monk, that was good, as it neither breaks the setting, nor does it create akward situations like a holy knight in the middle of a desert as a shining beacon blabla..(humble or cocky)
and as u so nicely point out that there are palladins serving a Dragon (as an option), as a diversion from the regular arche type, is ludicrous, and i have the same oppinion about palladins of slaughter and such.
A palladin is a virtuouus doo-gooder, not some jojo like a fighter who can swap idealogy (however u spell that word), thats the strickt point of a palladin( besides the fact that "black guard" and "anti palladin" should serve the same role)
a black guard is in name and fluff not an attempt to get a palladin into the game, neither as a anti palladin for that matter, so i would more likely see a Black Guard serve a dragon then your version of a "palladin".
wrong name, wrong class, wrong setting, keep it out, and play as it was supposed to be (setting wise)
wrong name, wrong class, wrong setting, keep it out, and play as it was supposed to be (setting wise)
I would appreciate it if you didn't try and tell others how the setting is "supposed" to be played. If someone decides that paladins fit into their verision of Darksun, it really has no effect on how you play your version.
I would appreciate it if you didn't try and tell others how the setting is "supposed" to be played. If someone decides that paladins fit into their verision of Darksun, it really has no effect on how you play your version.
actually i am not,
this is merely your intepretation,
my reason for reacting like this is because i feel that if this continues the way is has up till now, sometime , on of those "bureaucrats" at athas.org might get the bright idea of putting a thing like "palladins" in the basic setting, and i am dead set against that sort of happenstance.
not intending to dictate anybody how he or she plays, but that is a house change to a setting, not something that should be introduced into a base set for a setting itself.
No, and why?, the setting never had "palladins" and u should not twist this around by saying u could adjust the story to fit the class.
The original 2nd ed. boxed set also did not include Barbarians, Psychic Warriors or Wilders and they have all been added to athas.org's ds3e, either with tangible alterations to the setting (as is the case of the PW) or to the class (as is the case of the Barbarian).
The people at athas.org were not the only ones to do something of the sort. The 2nd ed. revised boxed set did away with halfling preservers even though the first boxed set stated clearly that most halfling chieftains were preservers. Dune Trader also conjured the Trader class out of nothing.
For better or for worse (the halfling thing comes to mind), there's certainly a lot of precedents to making significant alterations to Athas. I see no problem about adding something to Dark Sun, be it fluff or gaming rules, if it is for the betterment of the setting and our gaming experience.
Nevertheless...
it create akward situations like a holy knight in the middle of a desert as a shining beacon blabla..(humble or cocky)
... I mostly agree with you. I'm not sure if the Paladin class can be sufficiently altered in order to fit the Athas of the Brown Age in a smooth and agreeable way. I do not advocate that the Paladin be made a core class or turned into a staple of DS gaming.
But I do advocate keeping an open mind and, to me, the class doesn't seem completely dissonant with what's known about the Green Age. There might have been paladin types wandering about Athas at that time.
palladins never were part of this setting, and to change that because the system has changed is rediculous in my opinion (if this was one of your thoughts).
as i said already, there was a version of a psionic monk, that was good, as it neither breaks the setting, nor does it create akward situations...
You forget... monks were not included in the original setting either, let alone psionic ones. And have you even looked at Xlorep's version of the paladin? I was dead against the idea myself until I looked at his version, and I was quite impressed with it.
actually i am not,
this is merely your intepretation,
my reason for reacting like this is because i feel that if this continues the way is has up till now, sometime , on of those "bureaucrats" at athas.org might get the bright idea of putting a thing like "palladins" in the basic setting, and i am dead set against that sort of happenstance.
... Nice. I'm glad that you belive we "bureacrats" are so easily swayed. We're not in this randomly, you know. everyone involved in Athas.org has been a proven member of the Dark Sun community over the years. We all care greatly about the setting, and belive me, we have some true purists involved. We are very careful in changes we make to the setting, trying very, very hard to ensure that we maintain the tone and theme that attracted us all in the first place.
Yes, we have added things. Psychic Warriors, and Wilders, which required little explination. PHB rangers, which required an explanation for where they get their spells. Barbarians, which required a flavor rework -- to the point where they went for years with another name, to avoid the norse/viking connotations associated with the barbarian class (the Conan example aside, apparently)
We've also avoided adding some things that could probably easily be explained. From the list of things that I personally allow: (Psionic) monks and Sorcerers (hey, they just learn spells differently, that's all). We all have to agree with the changes these things bring to the setting, and we don't do it lightly. As was pointed out, we're very conservative about what goes into core ...
So, rather than flying off the handle, thinking that you must be the Keeper of the Pure Faith, standing alone between athas.org and Corruption, I assure you that we're doing just fine by ourselves, thankyouverymuch. This is a discussion forum, where people are allowed and encouraged to explore alternative ideas. Nobody is talking about altering core, and disrupting a civil and productive conversation is unacceptable behavior. If you don't like what they're talking about, change the bloody channel.
Xlorep created a worthwhile athasian version of the paladin, this time dedicated to the cause of a sorcerer-king.
Look for it in the Forum Archive sticked on the main page.
The write-up's down right now, but I'll make a push to get more of my old work back up on my new site. Real Life's been keeping me really busy as of late, with work, the return of school, and a girlfriend + her two daughters pulling me away from being able to keep ahead on my website and other little projects I've been working with.
Have you even read our work?
Rest assured there will be no Paladin in core. If we were designing Athas from scratch, we could conceivably design a "paladin" to fit Athas, but it would have to be a spoof of the D&D Paladin, in the same way that Athasian elves and halflings are spoofs of their D&D counterparts. An Athasian paladin might be a lawful evil "true believer" in the sorceror-king, a subspecies of templar crossed with mujahadeen. The Oba might have such servants since she's got the most devoted following.
But we are not developing Athas from scratch. There would be no point in designing such a class now, since the world's developed enough that such a class can't just appear out of nowhere.
Wow, I've never been called a "bureaucrat" before.
Well, if you look at our nomenclature for our staffing and organizational bits ... it is patterened after Athasian bureaucracies ...
But it's still true that I've never been called one, between the Overcouncil and the Paper Nest.
i do not think u should hammer a class into a setting where it has no place what-so-ever, u take the essence from the class and u also take essence from the setting as well.
a psionic version of a monk i could dig in this setting as it melds with the psionic attitude of contemplation and such, but not the palladin, in his self-righteous attitude
You should check my version of the paladin before you make such claims, I spent a bit of time trying to make the Paladin fit into the setting, and my Paladin is radically different from the PHB version.
FYI -- I put my paladin write-up into its own thread, here on the forums again.
The Athasian Paladin
You should check my version of the paladin before you make such claims, I spent a bit of time trying to make the Paladin fit into the setting, and my Paladin is radically different from the PHB version.
Like I said... I was horrified by the idea at first, until I read it for myself. Now I'm trying to find ways to fit it into my own campaign. (read: good work xlor ;))
No, and why?, the setting never had "palladins" and u should not twist this around by saying u could adjust the story to fit the class.
elves were in it right from the start, and so were halflings, albeit with a twist of story(not completely, as feral elves and halflings also exist in Faeruhn) to the race itself.
palladins never were part of this setting, and to change that because the system has changed is rediculous in my opinion (if this was one of your thoughts).
as i said already, there was a version of a psionic monk, that was good, as it neither breaks the setting, nor does it create akward situations like a holy knight in the middle of a desert as a shining beacon blabla..(humble or cocky)
and as u so nicely point out that there are palladins serving a Dragon (as an option), as a diversion from the regular arche type, is ludicrous, and i have the same oppinion about palladins of slaughter and such.
A palladin is a virtuouus doo-gooder, not some jojo like a fighter who can swap idealogy (however u spell that word), thats the strickt point of a palladin( besides the fact that "black guard" and "anti palladin" should serve the same role)
a black guard is in name and fluff not an attempt to get a palladin into the game, neither as a anti palladin for that matter, so i would more likely see a Black Guard serve a dragon then your version of a "palladin".
wrong name, wrong class, wrong setting, keep it out, and play as it was supposed to be (setting wise)
I dunno, I started devising my paladins because I was horrified by the notion as presented in the Dragon & Dungeon Magazine write-ups. I thought about how to make paladins that could have always been around, without ever really having the limelight on them. I wanted to make some that would integrate into the setting, and would most likely be a drastic variation on the paladin idea, much like how the Athasian bard is really quite different from the "normal" (PHB) bard.
First off, I don't like the idea of paladins being spellcasters, plain and simple. Second, I wanted them to have some bonuses received from their monarchs, while focusing more on their military strengths -- the Marshall class has several abilities I liked, and I blended them into the class as well. The results are a twisted, disturbing group of people that fill a variety unique jobs and positions within a city-state, and are absolutely devoited and loyal to their monarchs. Menacing, powerful, aggressive, dedicated, focused, and downright scary. These are people that actually are separated and apart from the templarate order, but work side-by-side with the templars to handle various military and police functions throughout the city-state, including monitoring and policing the templars themselves.
Yes, we have added things. Psychic Warriors, and Wilders, which required little explination.
Quite true for the Wilder, but the Psychic Warrior was accompanied by a slight change to the setting: the kreen were strongly tied to the PW, to the point of it becoming an almost universal class for them.
This changed a little the way kreen are played and how the race interacts with psionics, but I see at least two compelling benefits to it:
1- It gave the PW a robust standing in DS, since kreens are a strong component of the setting and since they are so numerous (especially if you count the tohr-kreen), hence offering a strong justification for the class’s inclusion.
2- It provided the 3e kreen with a clear psionics style that is suitable to the kind of physical prowess that they are supposed to have; the Psion class hardly reflects the (melee) combat skills of the 2e kreen.
Were those the reasons behind that decision?
PHB rangers, which required an explanation for where they get their spells.
Even though I liked the non-spellcaster Ranger a great deal, I very much enjoyed the explanation behind the new Ranger’s spellcasting. I’ve been using the minor SotLs to great effect in my campaign.
Barbarians, which required a flavor rework -- to the point where they went for years with another name, to avoid the norse/viking connotations associated with the barbarian class
The addition of the (amended) Barbarian class was quite beneficial, from the gaming point of view.
(the Conan example aside, apparently)
Conan may not be a Nordheimir (the Hyborian counterparts of the vikings), but his Cimerian background still fits the “bloodthirsty barbarian from the north” archetype quite well... :D
We've also avoided adding some things that could probably easily be explained. From the list of things that I personally allow: (Psionic) monks
I find that, unlike other classes that have been left out of DS, the (Psionic) Monk provides players and DMs with a certain type of character that the core classes aren’t capable of rendering up to satisfaction. I realize that many people chafe at the idea of using such a stereotypically Asian class in DS, but all it takes is amending the fluff a little bit for it to provide Athas with dozens of different character possibilities that do not offend the setting’s flavor at all. I’ve debated this in the boards extensively, some time ago.
Although the name "ablach-re" itself sounds Egyptian, Raam is mostly based on the cultures of India. A caste ring a bell to anyone. The mortitian class being the lowest caste? A big 4-armed blue god? India is part of Asia.
India and Thailand *are* about as Asian as you can get. In fact, they are part of the area in called the "Far East," as opposed to Constantinople (hello Saragar architecture) which was Asia/near east, or Babylon (hello Urik) which is Asia/Middle East.
If you add them up, that's more cultures on Athas based on Asian cultures than on any other continent.
I don't understand why people get all wound up about "asian" flavor in Dark Sun.
You are quite right. I’ve borrowed unashamedly from Asian sources when developing my take on the villichi, and I felt entirely justified in doing so due to the general outlook of the Sisterhood and to the Asian influenced precedents from Nibenay. Athas is a potpourri of exotic cultures, and I believe that this diversity is essential to the setting.
You are quite right. I’ve borrowed unashamedly from Asian sources when developing my take on the villichi, and I felt entirely justified in doing so due to the general outlook of the Sisterhood and to the Asian influenced precedents from Nibenay. Athas is a potpourri of exotic cultures, and I believe that this diversity is essential to the setting.
i disagree, this potpourri has only in the new setting been deepened, not in the PP and not in the 2nd ed. books,
and i think they are putting those different settings/ cultures way to much into athas...dark sun (with the obvious exception of Tectuthtitlay as it seemed very typical..)
Urik = babylon, Raam ~ India (caste system identical to that of India), and Nibenay is clearly Thailand.
Lastard >8)
but as i see most peoples idea of a 'paladin' for athas is different. as the elemental champion is probably not a paladin in that sense it leaves different kinds of 'paladins' for dark sun, people with different goals of (lawful good alignment?), which is fine with me :D am curious what else you come up with!
lastard (currently on dial-up
)Paladin, like elves and halflings, are warm fuzzies in regular D&D. It follows that since Elves and halflings are dark spoofs of their D&D counterparts, that a Paladin, if it existed, would also be a dark spoof.
Incidentally, I note that the 3e staff expressed fairly unanimous agreement that if they had the idea of prestige classes earlier, that they'd have made that Paladin a prestige class.
ncidentally, I note that the 3e staff expressed fairly unanimous agreement that if they had the idea of prestige classes earlier, that they'd have made that Paladin a prestige class.
Ral no!
It feels like some people are just creating classes for the sheer joy of tweaking with the mechanics, and then wanting others to create "fluff" to justify their creation.
Call me a purist if you like. But as I see it, if a class does not fill a Dark Sun story need, it's not a Dark Sun class. It's a Dark Smurf.
Somehow the community seems to be adopting this dysfunctional paradigm of "fluff" as stuff that we spread on top of whatever new mechanical that we want to try out. Rules exist to bring life to the story, not the other way around.
and...she's almost 7 months pregnant 
so you can imagine how much time I have to sit on the computer and share thoughts hehe...good times :D
To the issue paladins on athas... No.
There are no gods and there is no greater purpose. I do not se need for those who bode the gods will and their ideals. There are those how worship the elements and SK's. DS has this style for a reason, that is: being different, if I want to play a paladin I will play eberron or FR or some other medieval game. Dark Sun is a rough cruel world that does not NEED paladins. That is my thought on this issue.
Hi guys! It's been a while, I just got my internet connection up. My fiancée and I just moved to our own place and I haven't had the time to come visit
so you can imagine how much time I have to sit on the computer and share thoughts hehe...good times :D
To the issue paladins on athas... No.
There are no gods and there is no greater purpose. I do not se need for those who bode the gods will and their ideals. There are those how worship the elements and SK's. DS has this style for a reason, that is: being different, if I want to play a paladin I will play eberron or FR or some other medieval game. Dark Sun is a rough cruel world that does not NEED paladins. That is my thought on this issue.
You should see my version of Paladins, Ivan. They are quite different from the typical PHB Paladin, much like how the Athasian Bard is not very like the typical PHB Bard...
You should see my version of Paladins, Ivan. They are quite different from the typical PHB Paladin, much like how the Athasian Bard is not very like the typical PHB Bard...
I will check it out. I just have a strong opinion on this issue. If it works for you, then what ever turns you on baby ;) but it's not in the original, so it's not sopposed to be in the game, period. DS has this the other worlds got that. Let's take sigyl for instance. I like Sigyl (planescape), but I don't run around trying to squeeze a city "like" sigyl in every game I play. That's why I say, that if it works for you and your players, then that's a beautiful option for your game. But it's just in your game. I'm not dissing you, or this idea, I'm just saying that it doesn't belong in DS. There are no paladins here, and there are no SK's in other worlds. There is only one Sigyl...
peace
I will check it out. I just have a strong opinion on this issue. If it works for you, then what ever turns you on baby ;) but it's not in the original, so it's not sopposed to be in the game, period. DS has this the other worlds got that. Let's take sigyl for instance. I like Sigyl (planescape), but I don't run around trying to squeeze a city "like" sigyl in every game I play. That's why I say, that if it works for you and your players, then that's a beautiful option for your game. But it's just in your game. I'm not dissing you, or this idea, I'm just saying that it doesn't belong in DS. There are no paladins here, and there are no SK's in other worlds. There is only one Sigyl...
peace
You don't understand, as I said, my Paladin write-up is not typical. They don't cast spells, they are loyal servants of the SKs. Like you, I felt that Paladins didn't belong on Athas, but then I started throwing around ideas, based on how the other "hybrid" classes for Dark Sun had been radically changed (the Bard, and the older non-spellcasting Ranger), and I decided to re-envision the Paladin into something else. Something that could fit in Dark Sun (rather than making Dark Sun fit the Paladin). As to what they are like, think something along the lines of a SK's "secret police", as well as military leader, and personal bodyguard of the SK. Part of the way I tried to make them "fit Athas" was to make them be potentially something in the background, not regularly talked about; mistaken for bodyguards of High Templars, or generals of a city-state's army. People could potentially mistake them for more militaristic Templars. They fit outside of the Templar bureocracy, working directly under the orders of their monarch, and answerable only to him or her.