I wanted to send information to them, but not knowing who is active and who's not and not wanting to email to the list directly I've decided instead to post here.
My proposal is as follow: Create a sidebar in TotDL, in Chapter 1 or 3, and which provides an option for those characters that want to "heal/repair" already existing undead instead of creating new ones. This scheme would also be useful for free-willed undead wanting to repair other free-willed undead.
Using the Craft rules all types of fleshy, bony, and chitinous undead could be repaired using a mechanic similar to what the PHB provides for repairing damaged items (one could not repair incorporeal undead using the Craft skill though). A formula would be given that determines the repair DC, cost of the repair, and time required, relative to a variable found in undead monsters/characters, probably CR or HD.
Fluff would mention how this is done, like maybe bone or chitin paste, or dead flesh, is applied to damaged undead and if the repair DC is successful (costing a number of ceramic pieces in materials and needing several hours of work), then the dead grafts are "absorbed" by the undead and become animated by the essence of the undead.
What would be the result of a successful Craft repair check? No idea. Full healing of all hps seems a bit much, so I leave the cost/benefit discussion to others.
Ideas, suggestions, ridicule? :P
Working with Bruno and Methvezem on this feat Brax wants for the Trembling Plains project, I've come to see that the feat is a perfect platform for giving bonuses to certain Craft checks made to repair undead....its just I didn't have a mechanic for repairing undead!
Bruno and Meth, hit me up on MSN next time you see me. Let's see what we can do with the feat, and maybe this thread will bring feedback we'll be able to use.
There is no mention of a price.
....where does it say so, please?
As such, repairing an undead using the Craft skill might require costly materials, just like animating the dead requires costly materials in the first place.
That is one possibility.
Living constructs naturally heal over time, like other living beings. Undead do not. (Libris introduces the idea they do, though, but that book is not OGC.)
The SRD suggests that undead with an Int score can heal damage on their own:
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
The implication here is that undead with an Int score can heal damage on their own, but I'm coming up blank for a more concrete reference at the moment...
I found the Eberron reference on my own, Raddu. The Eberron Campaign Setting made no mention of warforged healing under the warforged entry, as they put it under the Skill section.
Woot! Man, that entry is exactly what I want implemented in TotDL. See page 46 under Craft. It mentions anyone with "applicable Craft skills" can repair a warforged, and goes on to list varied skills. So in this case the skills would be leatherworking, boneworking, chitinworking, and maybe some other ones (albeit I think there is an actual real world name for boneworking, and one could be created for chitinworking).
The mechanic would be:
[INDENT]8 hours of work result in a number of hps healed equal to the Craft check result -15. Taking 10 is permitted, but not 20. Undead with the appropriate Craft skills can heal themselves. Appropriate Craft skills are boneworking, chitinworking, and leatherworking.[/INDENT]
If this is implemented I'd like the Soulsmith feat to provide a complementary bonus to Craft checks made to heal undead, as it seems appropriate.
This is in the context of the feat to be a regional feat availlable in Eldaarich and the Dead Lands. Both create the necro-themed Wondrous items you have designed (I imagine a number of unique items, different from those of the Trembling Plains, could be created for Secrets of the Dead Lands), and both have macabre societies likely to use undead.
Thoughts?
While an analogous rules-feat might work in the dead lands, most of the items that I've listed so far don't really fit, I think. The undead in the dead lands have been dead for a very long time. You can't shrink their heads, since they have been walking leather for over 2000 years. The soulsmithed items that I've made kind of presume being made fresh from living creatures, and kind of presume interaction between the living and undead. They also have a warped sadistic twist that's uniquely Eldaarish. I've worked with both the Dead Lands and Eldaarich, and I think the projects involve a very different sort of horror, and I'd rather not do anything to overlap them thematically.
The Dead Lands have abandoned their old cleansing war xenophobia and it's all a war between undead and bugdead. Eldaarich still has the old Xeno attitudes ... hence horrors like "eyes of the half-breed." When a living human Eldaarish person keeps a library of his dead servants and ancestors to keep a repository of their knowledge, that's pretty creepy, and makes sense in a sick Eldaarish sort of way. But there's nothing particularly horrific about an undead creature keeping a talking head-item in a bag, and it doesn't make sense, since in the dead lands, your knowledgeable undead will remain sentient forever; you don't need to bag them. And if your knowledgeable dead lands undead isn't trustworthy, you just cut their arms and legs off, and ask them questions when you need them. Or maybe that's thinking too much like an Eldaarish templar :D
The same feat would be reprinted in SotDL and the same master list entry presented, except that the items it would contain would be those typically created by the undead of the region.
That is one possibility.
The other is to make a different feat about a totally different subject, for the undead of the Dead Lands, because there is a need for such a feat. The Dead Lands undead are masters at manipulating unliving matter to reach their purposes, so there's got to be something there.
Here's the current feat, if one removes the Dead Lands reference in the Regions section (I tried on several names and settled for the following, less soul-y name):
Deadwright [General]
Your familiarity with all things dead allow you to more easily create magic items made from animated body parts.
Regions: Eldaarich.
Benefits: Whenever you create certain magic items made from animated body parts (see page X for more details), the cost of materials used in their creation is reduced by 50%. Furthermore, you receive a +3 bonus on all Craft checks made to heal undead.
Also was wondering if i couldn't just yoink the feat from you guys, in order to put the complete version (pertaining to both Eldaarich and the Deadlands) in the 3.5 doc?
Then, I guess, it can end up anywhere in Athas.org's products (as long as the list of items is correctly referenced).
I LOVE "Deadwright," as a term.
Looks good to me, Pennarin.
I LOVE "Deadwright," as a term.
I could see a PrC for this - kind of like the Fleshwarper (?) from one of the books - it could be the Book of Vile Deeds, Librus Mortus, Lords of Madness - except it would only work with the flesh of the dead and maybe totally specializing in undead graphs and necromancy - so a blend of something like the Fleshwarper class, Penn's Royal Animator, and the Necromant = Deadwright Master!
Pennarin - what do you think of that - it would be a pretty cool blending of abilities, but I think it could be done!
As for the Dead Lands, I see the scarlet wardens withthe possibility to either choose an "undead graft feat" that allows them to create and graft genuine athasian undead grafts (basically, other bits and pieces of destroyed scarlet wardens) or a PrC like Lords of Madness' Fleshwarper, which would do the same. (Scarlet wardens are an appropriately alien-like civilization and they rule a huge chunck of the Dead Lands, so this is a definite possibility.)
Mmm, actually, Deadwright is a pretty good name for a scarlet warden PrC... I'll start looking into an alternative name for the feat or PrC.
Master-cadava (lol)
Necro-vehicles like the undead war beetle (DK) and the Folding Spider.
The Composite Zombie (I imagine like a golem made from choice parts of different creatures, imbuing it with abilities of different races)
The Skeleton Crew. (Convenient crew you can keep in a chest, and use to man your silt skimmer, but they won't fight for you; just a sailor profession operation)
The other two classes of necro-items are:
1. Jewelry like shrunken head earrings and a spinal collumn you can wear as a necklace, a cool cloak of multiple arms that Bruno statted up for me.
2. Necro-grafts, like eyes, tongue, hand, foot, for anyone that would like to see like a half-elf, or claw like a kreen. Trouble is these parts replace your own body parts, so you have to be really committed to the idea :D
Undead war beetles, by themselves, would warrant the bonus to Craft checks I listed. The orders would want to maintain their beetles in working order despite skirmishes.
The Skeleton Crew. (Convenient crew you can keep in a chest, and use to man your silt skimmer, but they won't fight for you; just a sailor profession operation)
That's horrible. No more puns.No more puns.
Flip and others, got a comment on the rule addition for healing undead? Pros and cons, yays and nays?
If my opinion matters, I like it - sounds interesting to me! :D
Flip and others, got a comment on the rule addition for healing undead? Pros and cons, yays and nays?
Do you have a synergy bonus for ranks in Knowledge (religion) and/or Healing? I think that this would be approperate seeing as how religion also covers burial and info on undead, and Healing is related to knowing how the body works - which could still apply to the undead.
I think the idea of crafting skills usd to repair the undead is in line with published material and see nothing wrong with it - one question though - is there anything in the Librus Mortus that would also cover this. I ask because I do not know (I could check tonight) but was just wondering if that book maybe had some insight into this issue.
For those of you who care, Libris Mortis lists the only healing method for mindless undead as being via negative energy, while Intelligent undead can heal in a similar way to a living creature - if it spends at least 8 consecutive hours during a 24-hour period it heals 1 hp/HD while a full 24 hours of inactivity heals 2 per HD.
Just something to help the discussion along. Maybe. ;)
Flip and others, got a comment on the rule addition for healing undead? Pros and cons, yays and nays?
At first blush, I have no problems with healing undead. I havn't, and won't until the weekend, had a chance to thoroughly look over and consider. Ping me then.
...is there anything in the Librus Mortus that would also cover this...
the Ghostwalk book might give some insight as well
For Athas, I think the craft skill would work well. It might also be useful to use the same mechanics for the feat that allows you to heal constructs. I can't remember it now. It might just be Craft Construct.
Just my two bits.
The only problem with the skill, IMO, now that we know what was printed in the Librus Mortus, is that having the skill heal/repair undead flys in the face of published WotC material that is a total contradiction. Now since thew LM is not OGC, I do not know if it is a huge issue, but I still think that it becomes a stumbling block if Athas.org has this item in an official DS product.
Just my two bits.
Maybe I'm being confrontational, so bear with me, but in what way does that proposed rule fly in the face of published material if there is no such rule in other products?
If it were there we couldn't use it - not OGC - and if its not there then its as bad?
The precedent is not for undead healing, its for warforge repair. The Craft check needed to heal the undead requires time and works on but one undead at a time. Nothing's broken in it as far as I can see.
Maybe I'm being confrontational, so bear with me, but in what way does that proposed rule fly in the face of published material if there is no such rule in other products?
If it were there we couldn't use it - not OGC - and if its not there then its as bad?
The precedent is not for undead healing, its for warforge repair. The Craft check needed to heal the undead requires time and works on but one undead at a time. Nothing's broken in it as far as I can see.
Librus Mortus, pg.10 under heading "Undead Healing" - I quote
"Only undead with Intelligence scores can recover lost hit points, usually through necromantic healing (see pg.10) or through the application of negative energy. An undead with the fast healing ability does not require an Intelligence score to benefit from that ability."
It is this paragraph that I was referring to when I said that the Craft skill used to repair undead would fly in the face of published material. The way I read this bit from the LM is that undead cannot be "fixed" due to thier state of unliving - a warforged is a living constuct, and the Repair checks made for them would be like a Heal chack made for a normal living person.
Nothing confrontational about your reply Pennarin :D - I should have opend the book and typed out that paragraph so I could show you exactly what I was talking about when I did my last post.
Oh dear. I must have forgotten to mention the "Talking Heads."
They preserve one of the original person's Knowledge skills, and the user keeps them pickled in a winesack, taking them out only to get their help with knowledge checks. If you have multiple heads with the same knowledge skill, you can get a slight bonus if you put your heads together.The Takrits and Shtas templars are very sick people. WC paints a picture of Eldaarich as government by the mentally ill, for the mentally ill. Prison State of Eldaarich is definitely the darkest thing that I've ever written.
Undead with Int ― never heal on their own. But applied negative energy does heal them. There are two dozen such ways to accomplish healing mindless undead in several D&D books: feats that transform turning attemps into healing for the undead, the several divine spells that mention they heal undead, a MMII monster that generates a wave of negative energy that damages the living and heals the undead, and I forget the rest.
What I'm proposing is a mundane way to heal, in a limited fashion, any type of undead.
By the same token, the idea of "repairing" a skeleton (to stick with this example) that has been damaged, without the use of negative energy, probably wouldn't even work; just as a skeleton doesn't necessarily have to be "complete" (i.e. not missing any bones) to be animated, there's no reason to assume that you could re-attach a bone that's been knocked off in order to somehow repair it. In order for that to work the necromantic spell/effect keeping the undead going would either have to have a "permanent" or other non-instantaneous duration, or else you'd have to make the huge assumption that the negative energy that animates the skeleton somehow "remembers" what it looked like when it was first created; the basic idea here being that there has to be some "memory" of what the fully-formed skeleton should look like in order for it to be possible to re-attach parts to them and have those parts suddenly "spring to unlife" as it were. Otherwise, it seems to be that, say, putting a shoulder-blade back onto a skeleton would, at best, count as armor of a sort and increase it's AC, but wouldn't be able to "fix" it. I point this out as, in comparison, a construct *is* built, using mundane methods of construction, after which it is animated - undead don't work that way, the energy animating them does all the work itself.
In this case it only matters that undead can lose "hit points" and that you can heal them by [insert here appropriate fluff], which in game terms I propose to be represented by a Craft check due to the object-like properties of dead flesh.
As for the methods you pointed out that can heal undead, I would just like to point out that all of the forms you mentioned use negative energy, even the divine feats, due to the cleric channeling their rebuke attempts (which IMO is the same as negative energy for evil clerics and positive for good).
Here is an analogy - if a person gets a cut, we put a band-aid on it right, this is a form of a "Heal" skill check in game terms or the application of first aid - and due to the ministrations of the skill, the persons body gets better - now this would also apply to a warforged, as they are living and their life-force functions in much the same way as a regular persons.
What you are proposing is that if we put a band-aid on an undead creature, that their body will get better - which is untrue due to the fact that they do not have a living (positive) life force, they are only animated through magic and negative energy.
A Heal and Craft check made to give back hp does not heal instantly like a spell, a person has to be under the healers care for a period of time, so the heal check only allows for a higher rate of natural healing due to the care provided – which you point out and I assume agree that it is what the rules say due to your last reply. Since undead with an zero intelligence do not heal naturally, then IMO this disallows a skill related check to give them back hit points or healing them with any other means then negative energy.
Its a matter of opinion, Dirk, how necromantic life functions.
In this case it only matters that undead can lose "hit points" and that you can heal them by [insert here appropriate fluff], which in game terms I propose to be represented by a Craft check due to the object-like properties of dead flesh.
It's partially a matter of opinion, yes, but in regards to their bodies being "object-like" I don't think that automatically translates to "...so you can fix them up like an object"; that's what my last post was about, and what Kal seems to be saying as well. I'm not against the idea either, at least not outright - I think there has to be something more to it than just "look at me, I'm nailing this corpse's arm back on so he can use it again" as that doesn't make sense.
In fact, even if you approach this from the aspect of treating it like repairing a construct, you still need to keep in mind that a construct can't be fixed by anyone - you need the Craft Construct feat, which in turn has 2 Craft prereq's that themselves have prereqs of being caster level 3rd and 5th. So even for a construct you're talking a case of someone who has magical capabilities using it to repair a "thing" that moves about via magic. (I know Eberron does stuff differently, and I don't have any of those books...but at least that's what the Craft Construct feat says).
Again, something to keep in mind...there's no rules basis, really, to justify non-magical means of healing, but a lot to justify the opposite.
I porpose the same be done to undead, and not just those with an Int score. In fact the contrary would be rather pointless.
Oh, and the method is more elaborate than just putting a limb back in place, or applying bone paste or dead flesh, as it takes 8 hours.
Oh dear. I must have forgotten to mention the "Talking Heads."
The Takrits and Shtas templars are very sick people. WC paints a picture of Eldaarich as government by the mentally ill, for the mentally ill. Prison State of Eldaarich is definitely the darkest thing that I've ever written.
I CANNOT wait!!!!!!!!
I would say that a repair check could be made on undead that do posess an Int score - and that check would be realitive in form and application as the one used to repair warforged - but in no way do I see that such a check should be allowed to work in mindless undead creatures.
I think all he arguments I have made up to this point have been pretty well supported and in line with the current rules.
Regardless on how long it takes, I now think that a heal/repair check to fix undead without an Int score is not a viable option now - as per my previous post.
I would say that a repair check could be made on undead that do posess an Int score - and that check would be realitive in form and application as the one used to repair warforged - but in no way do I see that such a check should be allowed to work in mindless undead creatures.
I think all he arguments I have made up to this point have been pretty well supported and in line with the current rules.
I agree with this 100%.
Penn - in the case of non-mindless undead, if there's some way of connecting negative energy to the Craft check (be it from the expendature of a rebuke/command undead ability, a necromantic spell, whatever) then it'd be fine, but when it comes to what you're saying (which I understand now, I'd missed the "living" construct part) the reasoning you're using to justify this isn't applicable to non-intelligent undead, as I was saying and Kal just summarized. Mindless undead function differently than those with intelligence do; based on existing rules it's pretty much a relationship like that of constructs to living constructs. So what you're proposing is a great fit for undead with an intelligence score, but doesn't jive with those that are mindless.
Figure out some way to make the negative energy connection and there'll be no problem...but based on existing rules there's a precedence against applying the same rules to both mindless and intelligent undead as opposed to one that supports it (i.e. the living construct vs. mindless construct rules differences).
Try this way of thinking, then: A zombie is a bag of flesh animated by forces that course through its body. Those forces keep the zombie from falling off to pieces due to weathering/rotting, and this for years, even centuries. That is a lot of energy stored at startup, or a good-sized stream of energy that steadily comes in. With this I think one can apply dead or detached tissue to it and it will absorb it if done properly. That a being has intelligence won't change his undead nature in that regard. In what is the body of an intelligent undead different from that of a mindless one, besides intelligence?
Penn/Sysane - I'm not arguing that the only way to heal an undead with an intelligence score is by using negative energy, nor am I arguing that it's not possible to heal an unintelligent undead without using negative energy; what I'm arguing is that you can't simply bolt on a new limb to a skeleton and expect it to "work" any more than you can sew a new arm onto a person and expect it to work. In the case of intelligent undead, which can heal on their own, then it is reasonable to assume that you could perform the equivalent of a Heal check in a similar way you would with a living creature - somehow their bodies "know" what they should look like, if whole, and so as long as you knew what you were doing I suspect that you could, basically, "operate" on one to help it heal.
With unintelligent undead it's a different matter - they can't heal naturally, in any way/shape/form, so why would you assume that their bodies somehow "know" what they look like, whole? The point is, if their is no "body memory" then why the heck would the undead "know" that a fix-em-up was a "repair" and not just some piece of additional material added on? You can't hammer on a bunch of wood to a golem and expect it to start using it as if it was part of the thing's body, so why would that same idea work for an undead?
This isn't a matter of philosophy, it's a matter of extrapolating existing data in a logical way. As far as 3e is concerned, it seems pretty apparent that animated creatures (constructs or undead) that have no intelligence cannot simply be "fixed" without any sort of magical ability, while those with intelligence apparently *can* be "fixed" (or at least, can heal...and if they can heal, it's reasonable to assume that you can help that healing along). To look at it another way, if you could simply reattach an arm to a skeleton, let's say, and it'd work, then why couldn't you attach a bunch of armor, plus weaponry, plus wheels, etc. and turn said skeleton into a war machine...although it's still, technically, "just a skeleton?" That right there is my major issue with this idea of "you can just attach new stuff haphazardly and it'll fix the unintelligent undead" idea.
Penn/Sysane - I'm not arguing that the only way to heal an undead with an intelligence score is by using negative energy, nor am I arguing that it's not possible to heal an unintelligent undead without using negative energy; what I'm arguing is that you can't simply bolt on a new limb to a skeleton and expect it to "work" any more than you can sew a new arm onto a person and expect it to work. .
And why not? Is it hard to believe that the same energies that are animating the mindless undead could also extend to a replacement limb that has been painstakingly affixed to it in the correct manner?
In the case of intelligent undead, which can heal on their own, then it is reasonable to assume that you could perform the equivalent of a Heal check in a similar way you would with a living creature - somehow their bodies "know" what they should look like, if whole, and so as long as you knew what you were doing I suspect that you could, basically, "operate" on one to help it heal.
Is it that their bodies "know" what it should look like or is it the knowledge of the undead or the person working to repair them? The reasons I see for an intelligent undead being able to "heal" is that they have the actual common sense to tend to their wounds when not in combat vs. an unintelligent undead that will do nothing other than what its commanded to do.
With unintelligent undead it's a different matter - they can't heal naturally, in any way/shape/form, so why would you assume that their bodies somehow "know" what they look like, whole? The point is, if their is no "body memory" then why the heck would the undead "know" that a fix-em-up was a "repair" and not just some piece of additional material added on? You can't hammer on a bunch of wood to a golem and expect it to start using it as if it was part of the thing's body, so why would that same idea work for an undead?
Its not a matter of body memory as it is the magic energies or supernatural forces that are actually animating the undead corpse. No one is implying that you can just screw on any old thing to an unintelligent undead and expect that its inherent necomantic energies will animate it, but with the correct knowledge and know how is it that far fetched to believe it could be patched up to function in some crude manner?
This isn't a matter of philosophy, it's a matter of extrapolating existing data in a logical way. As far as 3e is concerned, it seems pretty apparent that animated creatures (constructs or undead) that have no intelligence cannot simply be "fixed" without any sort of magical ability,
We're talking about two different forms of magic. Necromantic vs. Elemental.. It takes one spell to create a zomibe or skeleton vs. the complex process of binding an unwilling earth spirit to a golem.
To look at it another way, if you could simply reattach an arm to a skeleton, let's say, and it'd work, then why couldn't you attach a bunch of armor, plus weaponry, plus wheels, etc. and turn said skeleton into a war machine...although it's still, technically, "just a skeleton?" That right there is my major issue with this idea of "you can just attach new stuff haphazardly and it'll fix the unintelligent undead" idea.
Again, no one is proposing that any old person can attach any old thing to an unintelligent undead and expect it to fuction. A knowledgeable being with the correct sets of skills should be able to repair a damaged/wounded undead with enough time and the correct tools.
Ranks in heal would also be beneficial. I'd imagine that knowing how to heal the living would give you basic knowledge in anatomy and such which would help in repairing the dead.
I like your suggestions so far, Sysane, but the Craft skill is used to repair warforged and they have a form of anatomy too, yet the process does not involve Heal.
My whole aversion to wanting further required energy is that if you're burning turning attempts and what not, you'd be better off in just spontaneously sacrificing spell slots to cast cause wound effects to heal/repair undead.
Thanks for pointing the obvious, Sysane, 'cause I can't be too clear that the new method is for mundane healing, by mundane but knowledgable people, and not spellcasters.
I think the idea of requiring a caster level for the feat (...it's still going to be a feat, correct?)
No, its a mention made in a book. A rule.
The point is, if their is no "body memory" then why the heck would the undead "know" that a fix-em-up was a "repair" and not just some piece of additional material added on?
The same argument can be used for warforged. Why can't you use the Craft skill to make a centaur-like contraption with your warforged and a tank? I don't know why, but you can't. Body memory? No idea. The very concept of why, in this case, is not explored in D&D.
Craft can't be used to abuse the rules and make warmachines out of warforged. The same limitations would be applied to healing/repairing undead.
This isn't a matter of philosophy, it's a matter of extrapolating existing data in a logical way. As far as 3e is concerned, it seems pretty apparent that animated creatures (constructs or undead) that have no intelligence cannot simply be "fixed" without any sort of magical ability
[...]
That right there is my major issue with this idea of "you can just attach new stuff haphazardly and it'll fix the unintelligent undead" idea.
This argument of yours, that adding stuff to a creature and making a skill check would result in a warmachine or bio-horror only matters if its actually something that the game allows you to do. In this case it does not.
An example: Constructs (like golems) can be repaired using the Craft skill if you have the Craft Construct feat. You apply missing parts to it and it makes them part of its own, the creature becoming whole again. Now do the rules allow you to do other things to golems using Craft, i.e. add HD, functional limbs, heads, wings? A big no.
Those rules already exist and there are no complaints. So why complain now and about this?
And why not? Is it hard to believe that the same energies that are animating the mindless undead could also extend to a replacement limb that has been painstakingly affixed to it in the correct manner?
THANK YOU!! Finally... -sight-
Something I just thought of (spurred by Kal's last posts) - undead are held together not by physical bindings, but by spiritual power in the form of negative energy. If you strap together a bunch of bones and animate it you get a golem, not an undead - it specifically takes negative energy to make an undead "function," which completely negates the need to in any way/shape/form "build" them - a skeleton assembles itself into its former shape when it is animated with negative energy, and tying on additional bones, replacing a missing arm, etc. is only adding inert material to the construct - it would take the application of more negative energy, in the form of some sort of necromantic spell (assumedly) to in any way "rebuild" the undead.
By the same token, the idea of "repairing" a skeleton (to stick with this example) that has been damaged, without the use of negative energy, probably wouldn't even work; just as a skeleton doesn't necessarily have to be "complete" (i.e. not missing any bones) to be animated, there's no reason to assume that you could re-attach a bone that's been knocked off in order to somehow repair it. In order for that to work the necromantic spell/effect keeping the undead going would either have to have a "permanent" or other non-instantaneous duration, or else you'd have to make the huge assumption that the negative energy that animates the skeleton somehow "remembers" what it looked like when it was first created; the basic idea here being that there has to be some "memory" of what the fully-formed skeleton should look like in order for it to be possible to re-attach parts to them and have those parts suddenly "spring to unlife" as it were. Otherwise, it seems to be that, say, putting a shoulder-blade back onto a skeleton would, at best, count as armor of a sort and increase it's AC, but wouldn't be able to "fix" it. I point this out as, in comparison, a construct *is* built, using mundane methods of construction, after which it is animated - undead don't work that way, the energy animating them does all the work itself.
That's seems like a strong argument at first, since skeletons are rarely in any single moveable connected piece, and yet when you animate them they move as if they were a connected body.
But most of the golems aren't articulated in the same way that a skeleton or a body is. Salt golem, magma golem, etc. Just a hunk of matter. Some golems have hinges and stuff, but most don't. What am I missing here?
On the other hand:
And why not? Is it hard to believe that the same energies that are animating the mindless undead could also extend to a replacement limb that has been painstakingly affixed to it in the correct manner?
I don't think Dirk questions whether it could, but rather whether it would, given the facts that we know about animation. I see nothing in the animate dead spell saying that bones have to be painstakingly and correctly affixed in order for the animating energy to take effect. I'm not sure how heal is relevant. But if we assume that it isn't about each hit diminishing the negative energy, and if it's a matter of just re-extending the same energy that's still there, then I think that we're talking about something like a spellcraft check. You would not need to have magical power, but you would, I think, have to know something about magic, or about animation specifically. Those are my 2 cents.
I like your suggestions so far, Sysane, but the Craft skill is used to repair warforged and they have a form of anatomy too, yet the process does not involve Heal.
I think in the case of repairing undead a synergy bonus could be gained to your craft check if you have 5 ranks in heal. Knowing how the living functioned would certianly be useful in repairing the dead. And broken leg is a broken leg regardings if you dead or alive right?
Thanks for pointing the obvious, Sysane, 'cause I can't be too clear that the new method is for mundane healing, by mundane but knowledgable people, and not spellcasters.
I can't decided whether you're cutting on me here or praising me ;)
The same argument can be used for warforged. Why can't you use the Craft skill to make a centaur-like contraption with your warforged and a tank? I don't know why, but you can't. Body memory? No idea. The very concept of why, in this case, is not explored in D&D.
Agreed here. Look at all the Complete books, and how many of them have ideas for different uses for pre-existing skills. I wouldn't be suprised if Librus Mortis had rules of using craft skills to repair undead.
Craft can't be used to abuse the rules and make warmachines out of warforged. The same limitations would be applied to healing/repairing undead.
Agreed again. I wouldn't doubt that something like this is going to happen down the line in a future Eberron book though.
I don't think Dirk questions whether it could, but rather whether it would, given the facts that we know about animation.
Theres nothing that would contridict it either. Its new ground (as far asI know) that Penn is trying to break.
I see nothing in the animate dead spell saying that bones have to be painstakingly and correctly affixed in order for the animating energy to take effect.
For the initial spell, no I agree that its not a requirement. However, I would imagine that an intact corpse would be needed. How that corpse "becomes" intact prior to the casting of the spell is another story. In repairing mindless undead thru splints and nails and what not it would take a skilled being to do so.
I'm not sure how heal is relevant.
Basic anatomy. Useful in understanding how an animated corpse would walk and move. I'm pretty confidant that a coroner needs a basic medical training and knowledge in order to do his job in working with the dead. Same would apply for a being wishing to repair wounded and damaged zomibes and skeletons.
Theres nothing that would contridict it either. Its new ground (as far as I know) that Penn is trying to break.
It's new ground, but some of the arguments for it here seem to actually weigh against the idea of "healing" undead. The very fact that folks are analogizing to warforged crafting and to living creatures healing, is evidence that we need to pick a different spell to fix undead, other than craft, and other than healing.
For the initial spell, no I agree that its not a requirement. However, I would imagine that an intact corpse would be needed.
To animate in the first place? That's a little detail that would be specified in the spell description if it were true.
I concede that it is unlikely that a cleric walk into a butcher's shop and use a simple "animate dead" spell to turn a bunch of Aprig chops and mekillot sausages into zombies, although that would explain why no one invites evil clerics over for dinner anymore. But it's one thing to say that you can't animate isolated bits of skeleton, or separate body parts ground together, and something quite different to say that you need an "intact corpse" to make a zombie. This isn't Dr. Frankenstein hanging around in graveyards. Animators get bodies right off the battlefield. If it's just been hacked to death, chances are that it's not "intact."
How that corpse "becomes" intact prior to the casting of the spell is another story.
Why is it another story? If the rules required someone to stitch bodies together to be able to animate them, then that should be in the animation description, or in some addendum.
In repairing mindless undead thru splints and nails and what not it would take a skilled being to do so.
If that's what it takes to repair them, then that's what it would require to animate broken bodies in the first place. So we'd need an addendum to animate.
Basic anatomy. Useful in understanding how an animated corpse would walk and move. I'm pretty confidant that a coroner needs a basic medical training and knowledge in order to do his job in working with the dead.
Back during my undergrad, I worked with the dead as an anatomy lab aid, but I don't know how to make them rise and walk around. You're walking the Dr. Frankenstein route, and need to remember that what Dr. Frankenstein made was a flesh golem, not undead.
Same would apply for a being wishing to repair wounded and damaged zomibes and skeletons.
You've actually pushed me off the fence to the other side. The "same" should not, and must *not* apply to golems as to undead. While there is a difference between intelligent and unintelligent undead, the distinction between golem and unintelligent undead is more important. You can't turn a golem, because what holds a golem together is a different principle than that which holds any kind of undead together.
I tentatively agree with Pennarin that someone should be able to heal undead with some sort of skill check. But Sysanne's arguments prove to me that basing this on the Heal skill creates a confusion about the nature of undeath. We don't want a mechanic that breaks key story elements. Knowledge (the planes) is the closest skill relating to knowing about negative energy and such, but IIRC we don't use knowledge skills for practical stuff like this. Spellcraft is IMO the closest fit.
That's my input. Over to you, Flip.
To animate in the first place? That's a little detail that would be specified in the spell description if it were true.
From the SRD under Animate Dead:
Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.
I'm pretty sure this ends the "does the body need to be intact" debate. ;)
And please don't split hairs over the word "mostly".
Why is it another story? If the rules required someone to stitch bodies together to be able to animate them, then that should be in the animation description, or in some addendum.
The above covers this as well. I admit that I'm taking liberty in saying that the would be animator can mix and match parts, but nothing in the rules say that it can't be done.
If that's what it takes to repair them, then that's what it would require to animate broken bodies in the first place. So we'd need an addendum to animate.
None needed. The spell alreadys spells this out quite clearly.
Back during my undergrad, I worked with the dead as an anatomy lab aid, but I don't know how to make them rise and walk around. You're walking the Dr. Frankenstein route, and need to remember that what Dr. Frankenstein made was a flesh golem, not undead.
Never did I say you needed a basic knowledge on anatomy in order to animate dead, only that it would be helpful in repairing them.
You've actually pushed me off the fence to the other side.
What side would that be? You lost me.
I tentatively agree with Pennarin that someone should be able to heal undead with some sort of skill check. But Sysanne's arguments prove to me that basing this on the Heal skill creates a confusion about the nature of undeath. We don't want a mechanic that breaks key story elements. Knowledge (the planes) is the closest skill relating to knowing about negative energy and such, but IIRC we don't use knowledge skills for practical stuff like this. Spellcraft is IMO the closest fit.
You're misqouting me. Never did I say that repairing undead should be based solely off of the heal skill, only that it should apply a synergy bonus to the appropriate craft skill.
I'm simply pointing out the fact that negative energy is involved, and we don't want to confuse golems and undead.
Is a complete corpse with a severed head and mostly severed arm "mostly intact"?
The point is that negative energy animates these guys. That's why Turn and Rebuke work as they do.
If there's some craft skill that I'm not aware of that deals with negative energy, then that's dandy.
Otherwise I think we're talking about a spellcraft check, or a craft check modified by a special feat for fixing undead.
If you want to create a special craft check that specifically works to fix undead, and make heal a synergy bonus, I'd say sure, and also make knowledge (the planes) a synergy bonus, or whatever knowledge check relates closest to undead.
Warforged are, to an extend, "living" creatures, which not only makes them different from a normal construct but also makes them completely different from undead. Therefor you cannot use the existence of a rule governing the repair of Warforged to justify an almost identical rule being used for undead (intelligent or not) anymore than you can apply that rule to a regular construct.
Intelligent undead cannot (aside from grafts...) have "extra" material added on to them, but they *do* heal "naturally." Part of healing, at least in the sense of how it applies to living creatures, is that each part of the body "knows" what it is supposed to look like - it has a "body memory" of sorts. That's why a person can heal a cut but don't grow extra appendages every time they suffer a wound, and why you can't just slap on an extra arm and get it to work. With intelligent undead, my guess is that the existence of a "soul" within the undead (the spiritual essence that lets the thing think, the spiritual part of the monster that was carried over from life) is what allows it to heal - it has a "body memory" of sorts, albeit one fueled by necromantic/negative energy, but still...there's something spiritual in the creature that "knows" what it should look like, that understands the difference between it's undead state and true death (i.e. it recognizes that it can be destroyed), etc.
An unintelligent undead, on the other hand, is just a bunch of dead material held together and animated by negative energy. There's no mind, no soul that keeps the thing going. You can take a skeleton that has been dead for thousands of years and as long as it's "mostly intact" you can animate it, and more-so it makes no difference whether or not the soul of the bodies' former "owner" likes this or not - based on undead-animating spells versus raise-dead type spells it's pretty apparent that there's no vestige of the bodies' former "owner" inside of it...just a bunch of negative energy holding it together. There's no sense of "body memory" to it as it's nothing more than an animated object. True, you can try and argue that the negative energy somehow maintains this "body memory" to know what it should look like, but we've got Libris Mortis clearly stating that "only undead with intelligence scores can recover lost hit points;" it does go on to list the use of negative energy as a means of restoring HP, which should apply to mindless undead as well, but this is most definitely a case of *magic* doing the healing, and so bypasses the "body memory" requirement for something to heal itself up otherwise. There's obviously a major difference in how an intelligent undead works as compared to a mindless undead, and when it comes to healing I can't help but attribute this to some sort of "body memory" that intelligent undead keep after death.
As for Craft Construct, although it does not require the expendature of spells or XP to repair a construct, it *does* require that you have Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item - both of which have a caster level prerequisite. So to say that Craft Construct doesn't require any sort of magical know-how is bunk; only a caster can repair a (non-warforged) construct, period. More importantly, the feat doesn't require *any* Craft skill, at all - all you need is money for materials, the feat, and the prerequisite magical know-how and you can repair the thing. So how the heck is this done using "mundane methods" without anything more than materials? You could take a completely incompetent and physically-challenged, say, Druid (Int, Dex and Str 3) that has the Craft Construct feat, give him a 50gp-valued block of clay, and at the end of a day he's somehow repaired 20 points of damage to a Clay Golem. But on the other hand, the best sculpter in the world (hurray for 20th-level Experts!) could spend years of his life trying to patch of said golem and never heal a single point of damage to the thing. There's only one sensical reason for this - the construct is being fixed using magical means, perhaps just the tiniest trickle of energy, not enough to cause any XP loss, but magic none-the-less.
No, you can't add extra arms to a construct and make it more fierce. No, you can't bolt on extra arms to an undead and expect them to work. Yes, you can (in both cases) bolt on plates of steel or whatever else you want and make them a little tougher...but it's just armor, not a part of them but something that has been added on. And without some sort of "body memory" - memory being something that mindless things don't have - there's no mundane way to "fix" up something that's magically animated. Re-attaching an arm to an animated skeleton is no different than attaching an extra arm to it - it's just extra material put onto the thing, and that's that. There's no rules, anywhere, that state that the negative energy that animates undead "knows" what it should look like beyond the initial casting, and in fact there's reason to believe that this most likely isn't the case - not only does Libris Mortis state:
"What would disable or render unconscious a living creature destroys an undead beyond recall...No aid, magical or mundane, is sufficient to restore the undead to its previous state of animation"
...but Animate Dead, Create Undead, Create Greater Undead and similar undead-making spells all have a duration of instantaneous, which the SRD says means that "the spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting." This LM excerpt + the SRD quote, when taken together, indicate (to me, at least) that it's the initial spell energy that "knows" what the undead is supposed to look like - it "knows" that a pile of humanoid bones that are "mostly complete" should form up into a human-shaped skeleton, or that by placing black onyx gems into the mouth and/or eyes of a corpse, along with some grave dirt and brackish water, can somehow cause any ol' body to suddenly raise up as a linen-covered mummy or turn into a skeletal mohrg with prehensile intestinal tentacles. This is all done by magic, regardless of whether or not the caster knows the slightest thing about anatomy, and it's all done instantaneously; once the undead is animated, "no aid is sufficient to restore [a destroyed] undaed to its previous state of animation." Nowhere in this does the Craft skill figure in, there's no "building the body" needed, and by extension there's absolutely no reason to believe that without magic it's somehow possible to "repair" a mindless, animated corpse. For intelligent undead, great - they heal similar to how a living creature or warforged creature does, so I see no problems with having similar rules for healing them. But with mindless undead, just like with constructs, "magical energy" should figure into it *somewhere* - even if it's just a caster level requirement in order to take the initial "Repair Undead" feat.
But pliers, some bailing wire, a hacksaw and some chicken bones...that's not going to cut it.
Constructs and mindless undead are nothing alike. Yes, we're using the repair rules for warforged as a basis to create a new set of rules to repair mindless undead (such as zombies and skeletons), but thats due to the lack of any other mechanic to use as a good comparison. Requiring a feat to repair a 2 HD (or less) creature is totally unfeasible IMO. Who would actually waste a feat on that when sacrificing spell slots to spontaneously cast harm spells, or casting another animate dead spell on new batch of intact corpses would be an easier solution? I can honestly state most people wouldn't.
This rule would be for low level clerics or wizards and their minions to use. I can't speak for Penn, but for me, this mechanic is more for a flavoring effect than anything else. Its by far, not a game breaking concept.
I can't decided whether you're cutting on me here or praising me ;)
Praise.
Is a complete corpse with a severed head and mostly severed arm "mostly intact"?
No such distinction is made in D&D. The game does not answer these questions.
If there's some craft skill that I'm not aware of that deals with negative energy, then that's dandy.
Otherwise I think we're talking about a spellcraft check, or a craft check modified by a special feat for fixing undead.
Can you find me a reference when a skill other than Profession and Craft is used to repair something? Can you repair a damaged magic item using Spellcraft? Knowledge (arcana)?
Therefor you cannot use the existence of a rule governing the repair of Warforged to justify an almost identical rule being used for undead (intelligent or not) anymore than you can apply that rule to a regular construct.
Oh I'm not justifying anything, I'm borrowing for simplicity's sake! ;)
There's only one sensical reason for this - the construct is being fixed using magical means, perhaps just the tiniest trickle of energy, not enough to cause any XP loss, but magic none-the-less.
Undead are not magical beings. They are undead. They predate arcane and divine magic, it is a nondescript "force" that creates and animates them. Spells manipulate that "force". That "force" is what the Gray manifests unto Athas to transform a dwarf into a banshee. An antimagic zone will not prevent it.
Requiring a caster level or ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana) has no bearing in this case on these nonmagical beings. Even if an undead is created using a spell, a dispel magic will not de-animate them.
Yes, you can (in both cases) bolt on plates of steel or whatever else you want and make them a little tougher...but it's just armor, not a part of them but something that has been added on. And without some sort of "body memory" - memory being something that mindless things don't have - there's no mundane way to "fix" up something that's magically animated.
Sorry but being intelligent has no bearing on whether my body knows where my arm is supposed to go. This body memory argument has actually no bearing outside of fantasy and the cop-out sort of SF where science has no bearing.
Also, there is no need to bolt on a piece of metal to armor your undead or construct, all you need to do is put armor on it. It works. Its not usually done in WotC-sold D&D adventures because its not cheap to equip a hundred zombies and skeletons with weapons and armors.
Eberron has done it with the undead created by the Kharnati people, who walk around with masterwork weapons and armor.
Constructs and mindless undead are nothing alike. Yes, we're using the repair rules for warforged as a basis to create a new set of rules to repair mindless undead (such as zombies and skeletons), but thats due to the lack of any other mechanic to use as a good comparison. Requiring a feat to repair a 2 HD (or less) creature is totally unfeasible IMO. Who would actually waste a feat on that when sacrificing spell slots to spontaneously cast harm spells, or casting another animate dead spell on new batch of intact corpses would be an easier solution? I can honestly state most people wouldn't.
Exactly.
Eberron has a series of spells called repair damage that are used specifically to repair damage to constructs and living constructs, yet they have a rule to repair constructs manually and without spellcasting.
In DS we have all the negative enegy divine spells out there like inflict, yet I propose a rule to heal undead manually and without spellcasting.
I can't speak for Penn, but for me, this mechanic is more for a flavoring effect than anything else. Its by far, not a game breaking concept.
Yes, this would be used by individual DMs, and not as a major plot-advancing mechanic in athas.org-written adventures involving undead armies in the hundreds.
I'm mainly thinking those few templars sent along with the army would assign people to repair the few war beetles and zombie giants that the SK has raised before sending his troops to wage war on his neighbor. In the novels the templars always need a damn good reason to call upon templar magic or else they get chastised, so a mundane way to heal these war contraptions would be realistic and for flavor.
Its by far, not a game breaking concept.
Oh, good heavens, I agree; it's not game-breaking.
@Pennarin: I'll think about it. You might be right.
I may have missed something in the discussion and must run. Are you proposint creating a new craft skill for this specifically? Since if so, I withdraw the objection. I just don't see this as a simple physical issue. OTOH a special craft check designed to take the negative energy into account is fine, just as Craft (alchemy) and craft (poisonmaking) take some kind of special knowledge into account.
Otherwise I think you're still missing my point - there's nothing rules-wise that should lead one to believe that mindless undead (*not* those with intelligence scores; that's a different matter) can somehow be "patched up" without any sort of magic at all. Mindless undead are all created either through instantaneous-duration spells or as spawn (which is, in effect, an instantaneous effect), but after that all of the rules that we have to go off of specifically state that they cannot be "healed" through any means *other* than with negative energy.
And, again, you can't take construct rules - especially those regarding living constructs - and just swing them right over to the undead arena. The only thing undead and constructs have in common is that they aren't "alive" but are instead animated by "other" forces - beyond that you're talking apples and oranges.
As even you (Penn) agree with, you can bolt armor onto a skeleton but it won't become "part" of the skeleton...but if that's the case then why should re-attaching a skeletal arm work? Moreso, if that *does* work, then it creates so many new questions that it gets ridiculous - does it have to be the corpse's original limb that's put on? How do you differentiate between "fixing" a skeleton by adding material to it as apposed to that being a case of "permanently affixing armor"? If your create a zombie that is initially missing an arm ("mostly intact corpse") can you later attach a new arm onto it so that it has two limbs rather than one, or does that fall under the "adding inert material" rule? That's just some of the many problems you get if you completely leave magic out of this.
IMO it's just opening up a huge can of worms when there's the simple alternative of saying "you can only fix undead if you are at least caster level X" or, if you're okay with differentiating between the healing of mindless undead and those with intelligence scores, you allow anyone to "fix" an intelligent undead using a Craft feat or what-have-you in a way that almost directly mimicks that of the Heal skill and, for the mindless undead, run it like the Craft Construct feat and, yes, require a feat to do so.
As Brax pointed out, if you make this a specific Craft feat and apply certain restrictions/"special rules" to it then I guess you could remove the requirement for negative energy...but that'd only be because, through these special rules, somehow negative energy is figured in as a "fluff factor" -say, the cost of goods to perform the repair takes into account that you're using materials that somehow are "connected to the Gray" as it were; perhaps the bodies of creatures that were murdered within the last hour, material that came from an intelligent undead, something like that. But again, if you simply say "you can slap on 'stuff' to fix them" you're raising all sorts of questions that, quite frankly, can be easily answered by saying "...because there's some negative energy involved."
You say this rule would allow a user of the skill to create trickedup undead, and also that we can't apply to the undead a rule for living constructs.
I can't answer about the latter, but about the former: The rule for living constructs makes no mention of trickedup living constructs either.
Are you, in fact, against that rule in Eberron? I don't see why the problems you foresee wouldn't also affect Eberron's living constructs, that players won't exploit the rule in the same way you've warned the undead rule would be exploited. Philosophy on the nature of animating forces is not enough in this case to rule out this new mechanic, as the mechanic I'm proposing is near-identical to that of Eberron.
Even if we changed the repairing/healing skill to Heal or Knowledge (religion) or wathever, it wouldn't change anything to this.
You say this rule would allow a user of the skill to create trickedup undead, and also that we can't apply to the undead a rule for living constructs.
I can't answer about the latter, but about the former: The rule for living constructs makes no mention of trickedup living constructs either.
No no no...I'm saying that, if left the way it is, it *could* be used to justify "tricking out" mindless undead. Again, I'm not arguing at all against this idea for intelligent undead - in fact, if you wanted to take the Repair Warforged Craft rules and apply them directly to intelligent undead I couldn't make any argument against it. But as even that rules entry states, "other constructs can't be repaired this way". My argument, again, is that there's enough of a difference between undead that are intelligent and those that are mindless that, just like with constructs and warforged, the same rules can't be applied to each. We've got Libris Mortis stating such with it's explaination of healing rules for mindless-vs.-intelligent undead, and Eberron separating warforged from constructs. I'm making a similar distinction between the two in regards to the idea of a "fixing undead" rule.
Are you, in fact, against that rule in Eberron? I don't see why the problems you foresee wouldn't also affect Eberron's living constructs, that players won't exploit the rule in the same way you've warned the undead rule would be exploited. Philosophy on the nature of animating forces is not enough in this case to rule out this new mechanic, as the mechanic I'm proposing is near-identical to that of Eberron.
I repeat - there's a major difference between a construct and a living construct/warforged, and it results in completely different rules governing each. Although mindless and intelligent undead don't have as extreme a difference, when you look at the rules governing how they heal they *do* resemble this construct-vs-warforged difference.
You can't "trick out" a warforged using Craft because it's not simply an animated object - there's a life-force and sentience in there. You can't trick out a regular construct either, because the only way to repair it is via a feat that requires caster levels to take...meaning that magic is somehow involved in the process, so the concept that the repair is "simply a matter of patching the thing up" (i.e. "adding" material to it) goes away...and once that idea is gone, then so is the potential argument that you could somehow "modify" the thing by adding extra limbs or what-not. I'm proposing a similar separation here, literally along the same lines as constructs-vs-warforged; intelligent undead can be repair just with a skill as you're proposing, just like warforged can be healed with Craft and people can be healed with Heal, but when it comes to mindless undead you need a feat with a caster level requirement, or some other restriction that adds magic to the mix...and thus negates the "it's just a matter of slapping a new arm on" argument.
Even if we changed the repairing/healing skill to Heal or Knowledge (religion) or wathever, it wouldn't change anything to this.
Correct...because the root of my argument is based on the difference between how a mindless undead "works" and how an intelligent undead does. They have many things in common (almost everything, even), *except* for how they heal. And if you're going to create rules that explain new ways to "heal" an undead, it strikes me as very, very wrong to ignore this difference.
Maybe a highly-retarded analogy will help explain where I'm coming from:
Start with two "computers" - one is a full-fledged PC, while the other is an old Nintendo with a Super Mario Bros. stuck in it. Now, let's say that you start having problems with each of these systems:
If you start having problems with the PC, it's quite possible that you can fix it by using it's software utilities - defrag the drive, restore corrupted files, etc. - and if it's a hardware issue, you can probably use those same utilities to determine what part of the hardware is broken and replace it. In either case, anyone with some skill and computer know-how can fix the thing because it has, in a manner of speaking, a "sense of completeness" - between the OS, BIOS, etc. it "knows" how it should function, what the different pieces should do, etc. You can't simply plug anything into it and expect it to work; the OS has to "understand" the parts that are going into it, and (for the sake of this argument) if you're not allowed to install any major software changes or driver updates you're not going to be able to change the overall structure of the thing through "repairs" - you can fix it, maybe make it function better than it did before, but in the end it'll still pretty much be the same PC you started with.
Now with the Nintendo the situation is quite different. Everything in the thing is hard-wired, so if blowing in the cartridge and wiggling the cables doesn't fix it then you're SOL; unless you're a specially-trained technician you're not going to just pop the thing apart, look inside and say "ahah, diode #432 went bad," unsolder the diode and solder in a new one, and get the thing working again. There's no way of knowing exactly what's wrong without specialized knowledge - microchips don't normally "look bad" - and the Nintendo doesn't have any way of helping you determine this; it's either working, starting to break, or broken. When it comes to modifying the thing, the only option you have here is to put in a new game cartridge - hurrah for the Legend of Zelda! But even then you're still stuck with an A and B button, 4-way directional pad, Select and Start buttons, and a power switch - you're not "modifying" it, you're just giving it a different set of commands to follow. You can solder on as many diodes as you want, paint the thing, whatever...but none of that will make it function any more efficiently than it already did (and most will probably just break it).
...well, maybe that's one late-night thought that won't make any sense to anyone other than me, but at least I've made myself laugh. :P
Ok, I am alright with considering the idea that only intelligent undead can be healed using a skill, there being enough of a parallel between constructs/warforged and mindless/intelligent undead for it.
What is everyone's opinions - again - on this ? Please be succinct. Brax, Flip, Sysane, cnahumck, Kal?
- blowing on the game cartrige or the nintendo could be considered a weak form of repair, since it fixes an existing problem that prevents it from working
- you can connect a new game controller that has turbo buttons, etc and suddenly things behave differently
Anyways, my opinion on the whole topic:
I agree with Pennarin. Adding a mechanism to repair undead, intelligent or not, is a good thing and makes logical sense to me. I do agree it would make more sense to require ranks in some skill, maybe a "repair kit", or maybe some source of magical energy... but I still agree with Penn.
I would say that it works like the repair living construct rules, except with mindless undead. For them, require ranks in spellcraft, or a feat if there is no spellcraft. I am still on the fence as to balance issues, even though I know that most characters will never use it. Funny mental picture of a battle field were some zombies are blown apart, and a templar yells out "NECROMEDIC!!"
GRAY TOUCH [GENERAL]
Due to extensive work with the undeath you've developed the skill to manipulate small portions of gray energy thru unliving matter.
Requirements: Native of Eldarish or the Deadlands or Knowledge (Undead) 6+; Spellcraft 4+
Benefits: You may repair non-intelligent undead with the appropriate Craft skill (leatherworking, boneworking, etc.); the base DC of this check is 8, and it restores 1 hit point per undead's HD with an 8 -hour working time; for each 5 points that your check results exceed the base DC, you're able to heal an extra point of damage within the 8-hours of work.
Repairing undead into this fashion has an associated raw materials and XP cost equal to 1 XP and 25 cp per 8 hours worth of work , for each undead; it requires uninterrupted work with none but the lightiest of activities (like crafting magic itens).
You may work with up to 8 + you Intelligence modifier undead at the same time.
Normal: Non-intelligent undead can only be repaired with negative energy after being created.
UNDEAD GRAFTER [GENERAL]
As an experienced manipulator of the unliving, you have developed a delicate and expensive process to graft new appendages into undead flesh.
Requirements: Gray Touch, Knowledge (Undead) 10+, Knowledge (The Gray) 7+
Benefits: You may add extra appendages to undead flesh that work normally. That includes extra flesh layers, extra limbs and any organ replacement. That means you may perform any of the enhancements under the Grafting Undead section with the proper materials, the indicated work time and associated XP and raw materials cost.
Grafting undead into this fashion requires uninterrupted work with none but the lightiest of activities (like crafting magic itens).
Special: If you're also a caster able to summon negative energy, you may cut the raw materials and XP cost by 1/3.
Just my humble contribution to this topic. :D
DAMAGING MAGIC ITEMS
Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost.
Magic items can be damaged like nonmagical items in most cases.
REPAIRING MAGIC ITEMS
Some magic items take damage over the course of an adventure. It costs no more to repair a magic item with the Craft skill than it does to repair its nonmagical counterpart. The make wholespell also repairs a damaged—but not completely broken—magic item.
You can repair damaged, but not completely broken or destoryed, items for no extra cost.
CRAFT MAGIC ARMS AND ARMOR [ITEM CREATION]
You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
It requires a feat and XP to mend a completely broken or destoryed magic item.
Now, I fully realize that mindless undead and magic items are in no way the same thing, but they do share some similarities for the purposes of the mechanic that Penn is proposing that happens to be based off repairing living constructs which, in essence, are a type magic item as shown by the repair mechanic from Eberron.
A character can repair damaged (but not destoryed or broken) magic items without having the corresponding Craft Magic Item feat. Now I ask, does it make any sort of sense that something created with lesser magics (i.e. a 3rd or 4th level spell with no XP cost) would require a feat to repair?
Ok, I am alright with considering the idea that only intelligent undead can be healed using a skill, there being enough of a parallel between constructs/warforged and mindless/intelligent undead for it.
What is everyone's opinions - again - on this ? Please be succinct. Brax, Flip, Sysane, cnahumck, Kal?
I have always been on board with the idea of having a skill check used to heal or repair damage to intelligent undead - so that has never been a sticking point for me.
I do not however, feel that a non-negative energy method of healing should be applied to mindless undead using just a basic skill check. I am of the opinion that only a very limited amount of negative energy went into the creation of the mindless undead, and to say that that limited magical force automatically redistributes when a new limb or part is attached is not logical to me.
Now I do like a suggestion that someone made and I will play off that when proposing this idea - if we were to allow mindless undead to be repaired then I think one of two things should happen with a feat required -
1) either that there be a caster level requirement and ability to rebuke undead be in place - though this seems kind of redundant if they can cast spells as they could just cast an inflict spell in the undead and heal them,
or
2) that the number of hit points repaired be somehow divided or set on a ratio and have that number be subtracted from the undead creature total hp - this whould show that the negative energy was somehow manipulated to animate the new parts, but at the expense of the overall creatures effectiveness. I would suggest that a ratio of 3 to 1 be in place - meaning that for every 3 hp repaired using a repair, craft, or heal check, then the undead creatures total hps be reduced - with all amount being rounded up - so repairing 5 hp would reduce the total hps the creature has by 2. I think that this could easily translate into a feat or a class feature for a necro-based PrC.
This latter suggestion is one that I am really leaning toward - it is not too powerful nor is it total deabilitating to the creature.
What is everyone's opinions - again - on this ? Please be succinct. Brax, Flip, Sysane, cnahumck, Kal?
Suggestion 1:
Craft (Undead)
Synergy bonuses from Knowledge (the planes), or whatever best connects to negative energy).
Cp cost to repair or trick up undead (see note below).
Note:
I understand the objections to "tricking up" undead, and if we were writing these rules from scratch, then I'd strongly agree, but we already have the undead war beetle, which is obviously an example of a tricked up undead. I suggest that you change that war beetle to a construct in your Emporium, and then make a strict no trick-up rule. People might still call it an undead war beetle, but this simply could be a public misunderstanding, like my "Carnivorous Tumbleweed" monster in Lost Cities of the Trembling Plains.
Alternate suggestion 2:
If we make that change to the war beetle (making it a construct, then the Craft skill would be
Craft (undead repair)
Synergy bonuses from Knowledge (the planes), or whatever best connects to negative energy).
Have some cost per/HP to fix the thing back up, just as you'd have a cost to fix a weapon.
-brax
Huntercc - ...it was bad enough that *I* mentioned the Nintendo; I can't believe that you followed up on it.
(...Bionic Commando and Kid Icarus 4EvR!)
As for an actual "rules opinion":
1) For intelligent undead, make it work pretty much how healing warforged does, except with whatever changes you wish (like it probably shouldn't cost as much, if anything, since it's more similar to a Heal check - suturing wounds together, etc. - than it is re-attaching armor plates or anything)
2) For mindless undead I *really* like Kal's idea, or at least a variation on it; either something like "every time a mindless undead is repaired its hit point total/maximum is reduced by 1" or possibly even "every time a mindless undead is repaired it suffers a cumulative 1 point of ability score drain to its Strength and Dexterity." In both cases this basically is saying, fluff-wise, that you are, to an extent, patching the undead up as if it were an object - sewing shut gashes, tying on limbs that were mostly but not completely cut off, etc. - but that you're not really repairing it in a "permanent" way, you're just doing your best to patch it together so it can last a little longer. As Kal reiterated, the meager animation spells that create these undead probably don't know how to "redistribute" the negative energy in a way that could cause "healing" - which of course has been my argument - but if there were cumulative penalties I think it makes sense to say that you don't need any magic to "patch them up" but by the same token you can't truly fix them; you're just making sure that the pieces that are currently attached.
To go along with that "mundane" way of repairing them - one in which they deteriorate since you aren't "adding" any additional negative energy to the mix - there could be a feat that has a caster level requirement (or command/rebuke requirement) that, if taken, negates these penalties. That way you can have the "necromedic" that can do *real* repairs on undead, but for the rest of the templars the best they can hope for is to keep the zombies moving long enough for the necromedic to show up.
Finally, I agree with Brax statement about the war beetle - given this discussion I think it should become a construct as well, since it is, in a lot of ways, a big bone skeleton.
However, I would be open to a feat that allowed a character to trick-out a mindless undead with further options (i.e. increased AC or damage, extra appendage, etc...).
Isn't this covered by Libris Mortis feats, or possibly in Appendix II by the Royal Animator PrC?
Craft (Undead)
Synergy bonuses from Knowledge (the planes), or whatever best connects to negative energy).
I asked Jon once and he said that synergy bonuses can be very numerous but very circumstancial and thus are not mentionned unless necessary in athas.org material.
So as much as I'd want Knowledge (the planes) or Knowledge (religion) to provide a synergy bonus...DMs will have to figure it out for themselves
we already have the undead war beetle, which is obviously an example of a tricked up undead.
Not so sure it fits the bill. AFAIK the undead war beetle has no new attacks a bugdead or zombie its size would have, and the only different thing is the scooped-out interior with portholes to allow for ranged fire from people standing inside. This, technically, can be done with a giant zombie too, although I never heard of it.
We shouldn't change the undead war beetle, as the fluff for its creation is very clear. The creature is a simple animation process after having turned it into a war platform. Same exists with the living drik who are molded into platforms.
My two bits anyway.
I find reducing 1 hp from mindless undead each time they're repaired kind of bookkeeping intensive. "How many times has zombie # 13 been repaired now, eight???". Streamlining it to that mindless undead can be repaired a total number of times equal to their hit die may be cleaner and easier for bookeeping purposes. Example, a 3HD skeleton can be repaired a total # of three times before its to far gone to be patched up any more.
My two bits anyway.
...although that still requires numerical book-keeping; not sure how that'd speed it up much, if any. And especially since most skeletons will be 1HD and most zombies 2HD...it might almost be better, if the book-keeping is an issue, to simply say "you can only heal a mindless undead a single time; if they are subsequently healed via a negative energy, such as through a necromantic spell, they may be healed again using the (skill)." Something like that? *shrug*
...although that still requires numerical book-keeping; not sure how that'd speed it up much, if any.
I stated it would be less bookkeeping intensive, not that it would eliminate it entirely. Zombies and skeletons have far less hit die than they do hit points. Plus, it adds a bit more realism in that the mindless undead can only benefit from being repaired a few times vs dozens.
And especially since most skeletons will be 1HD and most zombies 2HD...
Most is the key word. In most instances, large zombie's and skeletons will have more hit die.
it might almost be better, if the book-keeping is an issue, to simply say "you can only heal a mindless undead a single time; if they are subsequently healed via a negative energy, such as through a necromantic spell, they may be healed again using the (skill)." Something like that?
While I don't agree that limiting all mindless undead to being repaired once, I do agree that being "healed" thru neromantic magic would reset the count on the repair max.
...for once I have nothing else to say other than that. :P
I'd still go for a direct port of the warforged mechanic, and mention that the specific Craft skill used is determined by the type of undead* you want to heal.
The part I'm undecided about is the mindless/intelligent undead debate.
* Leatherworking: zombies and any other undead mainly described as a walking mound of flesh
Boneworking: skeletons and any other undead mainly described as a bunch of bones
Chitinworking: bugdead, warbeetles, and other undead vermin
Whats wrong in having all of those undead types falling under one craft skill (i.e. craft[repair undead])?
AFAIK there are very little new types of Craft, Knowledge, and other such skills (except Profession) than what is found in the PHB.
I heard it somewhere, and it seems supported by the stuff I've seen, that as most as possible WotC tries to keep using already existing Craft and Knowledge skills.
For example, on Athas Knowledge (undead) ought to mean something, what with undead being more numerous than on other worlds and being less related to religion than on other worlds...yet such knowledge is still part of Knowledge (religion).
The only new skill I've seen is Knowledge (warcraft).
For warforged repair, any single skill amongst various Craft skills (since warforged are made of various materials put together) is required, so for undead I'm allowing for 3 types of people to be able to repair undead: those that work leather, bones, and chitin, failry common occupations on Athas, thus its not some exotic Craft skill like Craft (undead repair).
In Eberron, a sculptor can repair a warforged as well as the next blacksmith.
In DS, you need one of 3 Craft skill to heal a limited number of types of undead. Leatherworking for zombies and kaishargas, for example, and boneworking for skeletons. If you got all 3 skills then you call heal all types of corporeal undead. I guess synergy bonuses could be given between those skills.
No. In Eberron, having any one of about 5 Craft skills allow you to heal a warforged.
In DS, you need one of 3 Craft skill to heal a limited number of types of undead. Leatherworking for zombies and kaishargas, for example, and boneworking for skeletons. If you got all 3 skills then you call heal all types of corporeal undead. I guess synergy bonuses could be given between those skills.
I can understand the reasons for wanting to break them out into separate crafts skills, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Personally, I'd prefer that it fall under one skill. You could realistically break the skills needed into make alchemic concoctions into several separate skills (depending on what you're making), but for simplicity reasons, it all falls under the one skill craft (alchemy).
for simplicity reasons, it all falls under the one skill craft (alchemy).
...skill which already exists. ;)
...skill which already exists. ;)
So put it under one skill which already exists. Or, be bold and make a brand new craft subtype. ;)