Mr. Douglas Niles,
There has been discussion on the Mystara Message Board about your First Quest Triad novels for the Known World of Mystara. Here's the thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690634
I was wondering, was there any talk at TSR as to where in Mystara the land of Karawenn is located?
To jog your memory, here's a map of the Mystara : http://www.pandius.com/master-outer-world.png
Suggestions include:
* Norwold (on the north shore of one of the bays),
* "Empire of Dorfin IV" (on the north shore of one of the large lakes),
* Thonia (along the southern coast),
* Pelatan (somewhere along the north shore of the large inlet),
* Vulcania (along the southern coast, near the south pole), or
* Zyxl (the eastern edge of the island being Karawenn's "World's End").
Can you help?
Thanks for your question--it's nice to know that those books are still appearing on someone's radar screen!
As far as the location, it was specifically requested that I keep it vague when I was writing the books. There was some talk among TSR management that it would be placed somewhere in Mystara, but I never gave it a specific location, and to the best of my knowledge, nobody else did, either. So if you find a good place for the land, by all means go ahead and put it there!
All the best,
Doug Niles
Thanks for your question--it's nice to know that those books are still appearing on someone's radar screen!
As far as the location, it was specifically requested that I keep it vague when I was writing the books. There was some talk among TSR management that it would be placed somewhere in Mystara, but I never gave it a specific location, and to the best of my knowledge, nobody else did, either. So if you find a good place for the land, by all means go ahead and put it there!
Thanks for investigating this Shane. Its interesting that he was instructed to keep the location vague. I wish they had set some location for it; it would have made things easier for us. In any case, this points further towards placing Karawenn in Mystara, though again we are left on our own to select the location.
I think Norwold, central Brun ("the Dorfinn Area") and Thonia are the most appropriate of the locations you list of reasons concerning geograpy, climate and culture.
Håvard
But then again, I've got my own project, so I certaily will lend my opinion to Havard, who also gets my vote, if he is willing, to be the "final authority" (or as close to one as a fan-initiated project can be) on the matter.
Maybe that should be "prime authority" instead of final.... a starting point...
V/R
Roger
Håvard
Is this the same Doug Niles that Frank Mentzer credited as co-creator of the War Machine?
I'd imagine it is- Doug Niles did a ton of work with/for TSR back in the day- several novels, a lot of design work, a couple of modules (CM1: Test of the Warlords, CM3: Sabre River, B5: Horror on the Hill).
I'd imagine it is- Doug Niles did a ton of work with/for TSR back in the day- several novels, a lot of design work, a couple of modules (CM1: Test of the Warlords, CM3: Sabre River, B5: Horror on the Hill).
Given that he did CM1, maybe Norwold isnt such a bad location for Karawenn after all?
Håvard
Given that he did CM1, maybe Norwold isnt such a bad location for Karawenn after all?
Håvard
Eh, I'd argue the opposite. The CM modules developed Norwold as an unexplored region, free for expansion of dominions without much meddling from local neighbors. I can't see anything that suggests that Doug Niles would've changed from this position in writing the FirstQuest books.
Mystara's a big place, and has room for authors to write up multiple locations within the same game world.
Dear Mystaraphiles, here's a correspondence from the creator of the land of Karawenn:
Mr. Douglas Niles,
There has been discussion on the Mystara Message Board about your First Quest Triad novels for the Known World of Mystara. Here's the thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690634
I was wondering, was there any talk at TSR as to where in Mystara the land of Karawenn is located?
To jog your memory, here's a map of the Mystara : http://www.pandius.com/master-outer-world.png
Suggestions include:
* Norwold (on the north shore of one of the bays),
* "Empire of Dorfin IV" (on the north shore of one of the large lakes),
* Thonia (along the southern coast),
* Pelatan (somewhere along the north shore of the large inlet),
* Vulcania (along the southern coast, near the south pole), or
* Zyxl (the eastern edge of the island being Karawenn's "World's End").
Can you help?
Thanks for your question--it's nice to know that those books are still appearing on someone's radar screen!
As far as the location, it was specifically requested that I keep it vague when I was writing the books. There was some talk among TSR management that it would be placed somewhere in Mystara, but I never gave it a specific location, and to the best of my knowledge, nobody else did, either. So if you find a good place for the land, by all means go ahead and put it there!
All the best,
Doug Niles
I posted in the other thread on Karawenn before I saw this one. This confirms my suspicion, the talk to place those books in Mystara never got beyond talk.
I posted in the other thread on Karawenn before I saw this one. This confirms my suspicion, the talk to place those books in Mystara never got beyond talk.
*sigh*
Okay lets clear this up. There is no reference in the novels or in any other Mystara supplement explicitly that Karawenn is located on Mystara. This puts Karawenn among the "Mystara apocrypha" subsettings which include Thunder Rift, Ghyr, Blackmoor, Izmer and possibly even the Wilderlands.
The arguments for having Karawenn in Mystara are:
* It is part of the Classic D&D product line. Many hold that anything written for Classic D&D is connected to Mystara.
* Karawenn confirms to the Mystaran cosmology with Spheres and Immortals.
* Karawenn is home to many "iconic" Mystaran races, including the Hsiao and Actaeons.
* Doug Niles' statement above shows that Mystara was mentioned as the setting in the discussion process though he kept the location vague so it could be located anywhere. Ofcourse that would be limited to anywhere where the Classic D&D/Mystara cosmology is in effect.
* Bruce Heard's Mystara File detailing Karawenn as set on Mystara.
As usual with the Mystara apocrypha as indeed with Mystara canon also one can chose to include or leave out what one would like. However, it can help flesh out unchartered territories. IMHO the "shoehorning" required to make it fit is more a question of adapting it to fan-canon rather than TSR canon.
Håvard
As usual with the Mystara apocrypha as indeed with Mystara canon also one can chose to include or leave out what one would like. However, it can help flesh out unchartered territories. IMHO the "shoehorning" required to make it fit is more a question of adapting it to fan-canon rather than TSR canon.
The main problem with all of these apocrypha is not that there isn't geographical space for them. It's that there isn't conceptual space -- they do not fit the character of Mystara (at least in its modern version), because they generally fall in the generic western european chivalric fantasy, which has little to no place in Mystara. Sure, there's plenty of it in the generic OD&D stuff (say, the Companion Set's short tournament adventure), but it's simply inappropriate for the areas of Mystara that represent cultures akin to the european ones (i.e., the Known World).
Not surprisingly, the only place where these locales fit are underdescribed areas (Western Brun, Norwold, Alphatia), but these areas should also be the ones that do not contain western european-based cultures.
This negates the value of the apocrypha in helping flesh out areas that where not described in canon material -- they only put constraints that are not really needed (which is why the apocrypha conflict with "fan-canon" also), while not giving much added value.
This negates the value of the apocrypha in helping flesh out areas that where not described in canon material -- they only put constraints that are not really needed (which is why the apocrypha conflict with "fan-canon" also), while not giving much added value.
While you cerntainly point out the challenges involving using many of the apocrypha (Karawenn in particular IMO), I disagree that it negates their value. Ghyr has already received a more or less accepted location in Norwold. Thunder Rift is small enough to be located anywhere. With Izmer, though disputed because of the poor quality of the movie, there is little dispute of its location.
If Karawenn cannot be placed in Norwold (which I still think is the conceptually best location for it), then the challenge is simply a matter of coming up with an explaination of why a pseudo-european culture could be found in central Brun. Some sort of emigration from the Known World is the most logical explaination.
Whether your campaign needs another are of knights and wizards is ofcourse a matter of personal preference. I think Karawenn has other aspects that make it interesting enough a region to be worth considering.
Håvard
With Izmer, though disputed because of the poor quality of the movie, there is little dispute of its location.
But, given the poor quality of the movie, does Izmer add anything to Alphatia as a setting? IMO, it adds near to nothing. If so, why do we need to fit it in Mystara. Really, Izmer is a case I can't understand at all.
If Karawenn cannot be placed in Norwold (which I still think is the conceptually best location for it), then the challenge is simply a matter of coming up with an explaination of why a pseudo-european culture could be found in central Brun. Some sort of emigration from the Known World is the most logical explaination.
It would be the n-th migration from the Known World -- the trick is overused.
Whether your campaign needs another are of knights and wizards is ofcourse a matter of personal preference.
Of course, but whether a setting has internal coherence and a balanced set of cultures and areas is not as dependent on personal preferences.
I think Karawenn has other aspects that make it interesting enough a region to be worth considering.
Then why can't it be a setting/world on its own? Not because it shares some cosmological ideas with Mystara: the AD&D worlds all share the same cosmology, but no one thinks it's necessary for them to share the same planet. Neither because it would be unreacheable by PCs otherwise -- planar travel is not so hard, while few PCs have been to the Midlands. Actually, it would be more reacheable if it was on a different planet, with a portal leading to Specularum downtown.
The only acceptable reason I can think of to have such apocrypha fitted into Mystara is if there were some cultural/setting element that was worth the effort. Then the question is, which are the specific elements that make Izmer, Thunder Rift, or Karawenn different from stock fantasy settings, and that therefore could warrant their inclusion in Mystara?
Okay lets clear this up. There is no reference in the novels or in any other Mystara supplement explicitly that Karawenn is located on Mystara. This puts Karawenn among the "Mystara apocrypha" subsettings which include Thunder Rift, Ghyr, Blackmoor, Izmer and possibly even the Wilderlands.
[...]
As usual with the Mystara apocrypha as indeed with Mystara canon also one can chose to include or leave out what one would like. However, it can help flesh out unchartered territories. IMHO the "shoehorning" required to make it fit is more a question of adapting it to fan-canon rather than TSR canon.
I agree with your point of view, Havard.
I tend to be of the opinion that (almost) everything that uses OD&D system has some connection with Mystara. You've cited the Ghyr example: that kingdom has found a place in Mystara despite some evidences seemed to put it elsewhere, and that's becouse the kingdom has fitted well within the setting. All that's needed with other settings like Karawenn is to find a place where thay can exist without contradicting canon sources.
The main problem with all of these apocrypha is not that there isn't geographical space for them. It's that there isn't conceptual space -- they do not fit the character of Mystara (at least in its modern version), because they generally fall in the generic western european chivalric fantasy, which has little to no place in Mystara. Sure, there's plenty of it in the generic OD&D stuff (say, the Companion Set's short tournament adventure), but it's simply inappropriate for the areas of Mystara that represent cultures akin to the european ones (i.e., the Known World).
Your assumption is that if canon sources don't talk about an area, that area is empty. And, moreover, you're giving precedence to one set of canon sources only. I think the best thing is try to amalgamate as many sources as possible; after all, even the old Master Set map, with its matriarcal Pelatan, can give us some informations about the general layout of a region.
And so does Karawenn. You don't like generic fantasy - but why? As you pointed out, Mystara hasn't a "generic fantasy" area - not the KW, neither the SC are "generic" as such. I don't think Mystara would be ruined by the insertion of a "classical-generic" fantasy setting, especially in a previously uncharted and undescribed area where nothing has ever been put.
But, given the poor quality of the movie, does Izmer add anything to Alphatia as a setting? IMO, it adds near to nothing. If so, why do we need to fit it in Mystara. Really, Izmer is a case I can't understand at all.
Izmer makes for the weakest case, I agree. I'm not so much interested in the movie itself, but more so the articles by Dave Arneson. There is much in there that can be used to expand on Sundsvall.
It would be the n-th migration from the Known World -- the trick is overused.
I disagree. Look at the real world at the Age of Imperialism. European settlers spread to the Americas and Oceania and elsewhere. Although technologically and culturally different, the parallell can easily be made to the Known World. Besides the Known World is so crammed with cultures that it only makes sense to "re-use" some of those things when developing other parts of the world.
Then why can't it be a setting/world on its own? Not because it shares some cosmological ideas with Mystara: the AD&D worlds all share the same cosmology, but no one thinks it's necessary for them to share the same planet. Neither because it would be unreacheable by PCs otherwise -- planar travel is not so hard, while few PCs have been to the Midlands. Actually, it would be more reacheable if it was on a different planet, with a portal leading to Specularum downtown.
Each to his own. I dont care much for pocket planes. Portals can also easily connect two areas on the same planets.
The only acceptable reason I can think of to have such apocrypha fitted into Mystara is if there were some cultural/setting element that was worth the effort. Then the question is, which are the specific elements that make Izmer, Thunder Rift, or Karawenn different from stock fantasy settings, and that therefore could warrant their inclusion in Mystara?
Its hard to make a case for these as one as I think there are very different reasons for bringing them into the campaign. Basically, I find that when developing subsettings or even scenarios, I prefer using existing material as a basis and modifying that rather than making up everything from scratch. Note that what I have been doing recently is really exploring the possibilities for using these subsettings with Mystara. That doesnt neccesarily mean they will be accepted, or even that I will be using them myself. But that is really hard to determine while the project is an on-going one, as the gems within such material are discovered when they are being properly placed into a context.
Håvard
I disagree. Look at the real world at the Age of Imperialism. European settlers spread to the Americas and Oceania and elsewhere. Although technologically and culturally different, the parallell can easily be made to the Known World. Besides the Known World is so crammed with cultures that it only makes sense to "re-use" some of those things when developing other parts of the world.
It's much different. Imperialist Europe dominated the rest of the world, which is not at all the case of the KW nations, the strongest of which, Thyatis, never went beyond the Savage Coast or the northern coast of Davania. Maybe in the future of the setting, Thyatis will colonize the entire world, but that is not the case right now.
Each to his own. I dont care much for pocket planes. Portals can also easily connect two areas on the same planets.
It's just to say that you don't need to crowd too much stuff into the same area/planet/whatever. For what I care, Karawenn can be on its own world, in its own multiverse, without any portal.
Its hard to make a case for these as one as I think there are very different reasons for bringing them into the campaign.
Well, you could start with one of them -- note that I'm not convinced by any of them, so there's plenty of space to start.
But that is really hard to determine while the project is an on-going one, as the gems within such material are discovered when they are being properly placed into a context.
Personally, I don't feel these "settings" offer much -- that was my previous point -- they just don't help in developing the "empty" areas.
Also, I don't think the tenuous links that these settings exhibit with Mystara is much of a justification for attempting the port. Actually, the strengths of a setting would be much more important to me -- and if so, then any setting could be potentially merged into Mystara: e.g., Birthright is certainly much more interesting and detailed than Izmer, yet because one of the worst directors in the history of cinema tells he took inspiration from Mystara, we would rather merge Izmer than Cerilia? I beg to differ. (Note: I do not propose or support the integration of any other setting in Mystara, Birthright was only chosen as an example)
Also, I don't think the tenuous links that these settings exhibit with Mystara is much of a justification for attempting the port. Actually, the strengths of a setting would be much more important to me -- and if so, then any setting could be potentially merged into Mystara: e.g., Birthright is certainly much more interesting and detailed than Izmer, yet because one of the worst directors in the history of cinema tells he took inspiration from Mystara, we would rather merge Izmer than Cerilia? I beg to differ. (Note: I do not propose or support the integration of any other setting in Mystara, Birthright was only chosen as an example)
Alright, I will stop trying to argue that Izmer has any relevance for Mystara. I knew it was going to be very controversial when I made those posts (I even stated that).
The main difference between Karawenn or Thunder Rift and say Birthright or Greyhawk is that Karawenn and TR are clearly substettings belonging to the Mystara multiverse, while Greyhawk and BR have their own cosmologies that dont fit with Mystaras. Furthermore, the main reason that they were explicitly located into Mystara in the first place was a case of bad product management in the first place. We know that this was considered in both cases, and in the case of TR it was even retrofitted into Mystara through the Escape from TR module. For Karawenn we have Bruce Heard's document and Doug Niles statements that these lands at several points were considered to be given a location in Mystara.
As always, whether one choses to actually use them or not is left to the individual DM.
Håvard
You've cited the Ghyr example: that kingdom has found a place in Mystara despite some evidences seemed to put it elsewhere, and that's becouse the kingdom has fitted well within the setting.
The case is completely different: first of all, Ghyr has strong links with Mystara (many NPCs of the adventure later appeared elsewhere in Mystara). Also, some significant adaptation is still required to set Ghyr into Mystara -- the Ghyr of Mystara becomes a frontier area of Essuria, implicitly inheriting all its background which not necessarily fits with what is known from the module.
Last, "Ghyr" is little more than a name or two, not a set of nations with a specified culture and/or history.
Your assumption is that if canon sources don't talk about an area, that area is empty.
My assumption is that if canon sources don't talk about an area, we can put what we want in there. The fact that in some case I don't care for extensive civilizations to be put where canon sources say there are wildernesses doesn't mean I'm specifically against adding civilizations where they're useful (specifically, CM1 defines the entirety of Norwold as "wilderness", so putting nations in there explicitly contradicts canon, if that's what you were thinking of).
For example, I'm perfectly fine with the addition of the Yezchamenid Empire or the Kavkaz civilizations, or with the land of Mis, etc.
I'm somewhat less satisfied with the Empire of Zuyevo, because the slavic theme is overused.
I'm not satisfied at all with Karawenn because IMO it fits badly with the rest of the area, which I don't consider empty at all.
And, moreover, you're giving precedence to one set of canon sources only.
For that matter, I'm giving precedence to non-canon sources as well. My precedence order gives more consideration to flavor and consistency than to canon-ness.
I think the best thing is try to amalgamate as many sources as possible; after all, even the old Master Set map, with its matriarcal Pelatan, can give us some informations about the general layout of a region.
OTOH, I think the best thing is to weed out inconsistent or out-of-place sources, and fill the empty slots with new material.
And so does Karawenn. You don't like generic fantasy - but why? As you pointed out, Mystara hasn't a "generic fantasy" area - not the KW, neither the SC are "generic" as such.
Generic == Bland. As I pointed out on the Italian board, there are areas in Mystara that already fill your "knights & wizards" pseudo-european fantasy -- the Darokin Borderlands, the Kingdom of Essuria, Stonewall, some of the Alphatian colonies (specifically, Norwold).
There's no need for more generic fantasy. Also, Mystara has progressed beyond the "chivalric" age. If you want an heavily chivalric setting, you just need to go back to the time between 730 and 858 AC, when Darokin and Glantri were in the chivalric age, and Karameikos in the late dark age.
This is also the golden age of Essuria, fixing that era as the Chivalric Age of the KW.
I don't think Mystara would be ruined by the insertion of a "classical-generic" fantasy setting, especially in a previously uncharted and undescribed area where nothing has ever been put.
It would, for several reasons:
1) Generic is bad per se. Since its generic, it lacks flavor.
2) These mini-settings were not devised to be set in Mystara -- they have no links with the surrounding regions (which are never as empty as they appear)
3) Something else has been (or could be) put into every empty space, if not by TSR staff, then by the fans; since these areas were actually devised specifically for Mystara, they're usually better.
It might actually be better, in theory, if Karawenn was stuck next to a heavily populated, already developed region of Mystara so that the two settings could feed off of one another - so that Karawenn could inherit a greater history and context.
For what it's worth, I don't think Karawenn as Håvard described it is that bland; it's actually a pretty interesting, or at least potentially interesting, place, full of magical disasters and wars. What's needed is greater context: elaborating on what Graytor was doing in Alphatia and why he had to leave it would add texture and nuance to Alphatia, for example, and bring Alphatian texture and nuance to Karawenn. Perhaps something could be added about where the Source Lodestone came from - is it from a now-destroyed planet? Perhaps the Source Lodestone came from Old Alphatia; that would help tie it further into the setting and add more detail and flavor to it. More could be added about the nature of the settlers from Thyatis as well.
The challenge isn't to find a place that's completely empty, but to create as many connections with full regions as possible.
Ghyr has already received a more or less accepted location in Norwold. Thunder Rift is small enough to be located anywhere.
Technically speaking
, Ghyr is not in the Norwold region. The Icereach and the northern mountains form Norwold's western limit, and Ghyr is nestled on the other side.Ghyr has two things in its favor that Karawenn et al do not. Ghyr was introduced in an OD&D game line product. It was further tied to the OD&D/pre-Mystara system through AC1 Shady Dragon Inn via the LJN characters in their post-Heartstone form.
For whatever value one assigns to such things, pre-Mystaran products have always been considered an inheritance. Revamped "basic" games and stories that took place at the end of TSR's life (DragonQuest, the Adventure Packs, Thunder Rift) don't automatically get due deference.
This is not to say that book X or adventure Y don't merit inclusion or aren't good in their own right. But it does mean that the writers/editors/powers-that-be made a conscious decision to not explicitly tie the product to the established Mystaran locality.
If Karawenn cannot be placed in Norwold (which I still think is the conceptually best location for it), then the challenge is simply a matter of coming up with an explaination of why a pseudo-european culture could be found in central Brun.
If I understand the photoshop maps correctly, these kingdoms are sitting within and beside mountainous terrain. Yet both potential sites have been noted (by canon and fan-source, respectively) as being level areas.
If you are going to go with Norwold, why not push it east so that it is on top of the mountains at the mouth of the Great Bay?
FWIW, Norwold would be the best site save for the over crowding of the Arctic (Karawenn et al, plus Gander's Littonia and Mishler's Karjaala), and the fact that there is a huge gaping abyssal planar rift. Alpha and Alphatia would have to be aware of something like this, wouldn't they?
The monster fauna seems right for the region. The only one that struck me as out of place were the Acteaon - although on second thought, not so much.
Names are a big problem. There are a lot of examples of random-syllable names (Tizzits and Graytors, oh my!). This could be either Alphatian or even barbarian (if you collected the various CM names - yes it's true
). Karawenn itself could by related to the people around Ghyr. Lots of "wen"s, "wynne"s and "ween"s there. Vanderthan resembles the Essurian/elvish use of -thon and -dhon.
Bedford, Rockeford, and Rochester strike me as very English in the Isle of Dawn sort of way.
-OldDawg
Things that might seem generic and bland in themselves may both improve and be improved by juxtaposition with other sources. For me the problem with Karawenn in Norwold isn't that the area is supposed to be wilderness and Karawenn is too civilized - Karawenn is itself mostly wilderness, not a civilized country, so that isn't a valid criticism. As Håvard presented it, it doesn't seem like a generic medieval nation, but a rough frontier with hardened settlers, perfect for Norwold. The problem instead might be that Norwold is so isolated and wild that it doesn't add much in terms of history and context to Karawenn.
It might actually be better, in theory, if Karawenn was stuck next to a heavily populated, already developed region of Mystara so that the two settings could feed off of one another - so that Karawenn could inherit a greater history and context.
Y'know, the flipside of this almost exactly captures the fears I have of placing Karawenn too closely in Norwold. If Karawenn feeds off Norwold, and vice versa, it soon becomes difficult to say where Norwold ends and Karawenn begins - and a DM, like myself, who wants to run Norwold with just CM modules, DotE and Pandius material has to either abandon everything on Pandius or spend large amounts of time figuring out what the fan-created material looks like once Karawenn is excised.
(Example: Someone notices that a Karawenn region in Norwold would likely be Target Alpha for giant raids from Frosthaven, due to its far northern location. Someone else figures that for Karawenn to survive and prosper in the face of such a threat, it needs to have a reasonably capable anti-giant militia. A third writer decides that, during one fine summer without threat of giants, the Karawenn militia will involve itself in some Norwold Almanac events. Oops.)
I'd prefer that anything linked to Mystara canon needs to either be linked in such a way that it can be cleanly ignored by DMs who've never read the source, or else public-domain material that can be freely copied and redistribited in its entirety by Pandius. Karawenn doesn't qualify for the second, and it doesn't sound like the discussion is moving in a direction that would allow for the first to be met.
Ghyr has two things in its favor that Karawenn et al do not. Ghyr was introduced in an OD&D game line product. It was further tied to the OD&D/pre-Mystara system through AC1 Shady Dragon Inn via the LJN characters in their post-Heartstone form.
Not only, but the same characters appear in X10 as well, placing Ghyr in the same world as the KW.
This is not to say that book X or adventure Y don't merit inclusion or aren't good in their own right. But it does mean that the writers/editors/powers-that-be made a conscious decision to not explicitly tie the product to the established Mystaran locality.
Exactly.
Names are a big problem. There are a lot of examples of random-syllable names (Tizzits and Graytors, oh my!).
The "generic fantasy" factor...
GP
If I understand the photoshop maps correctly, these kingdoms are sitting within and beside mountainous terrain. Yet both potential sites have been noted (by canon and fan-source, respectively) as being level areas.
If you are going to go with Norwold, why not push it east so that it is on top of the mountains at the mouth of the Great Bay?
I've been considering this actually. The only reason why I hadnt suggested it yet were the great protests against setting it in Norwold. Ofcourse, it seems to be the same voices who dont want it in at all, so perhaps the Norwold option should not be abandoned so quickly.
FWIW, Norwold would be the best site save for the over crowding of the Arctic (Karawenn et al, plus Gander's Littonia and Mishler's Karjaala), and the fact that there is a huge gaping abyssal planar rift. Alpha and Alphatia would have to be aware of something like this, wouldn't they?
Does really Kajaala and Littonia count as overcrowding? And is it neccesarily a problem that Alpha and Alphatia know about the area? That doesnt mean that they care about this rather barbaric wilderness. Giampaolo states that the lands of Norwold are supposed to be wildernesss. The Realms of Karawenn don't neccesarily have to change more civilized people's opinions that this is wilderness.
The monster fauna seems right for the region. The only one that struck me as out of place were the Acteaon - although on second thought, not so much.
I think they are all appropriate for a Taiga climate.
Names are a big problem. There are a lot of examples of random-syllable names (Tizzits and Graytors, oh my!). This could be either Alphatian or even barbarian (if you collected the various CM names - yes it's true
Karawenn itself could by related to the people around Ghyr. Lots of "wen"s, "wynne"s and "ween"s there. Vanderthan resembles the Essurian/elvish use of -thon and -dhon.
Bedford, Rockeford, and Rochester strike me as very English in the Isle of Dawn sort of way.
My idea is that these are descendants of settlers. Tizzit and Graytor are hardly common names in the region. Most names seem to be Isle of Dawn-ish or Hattian and Tizzit and Graytor could easily be Alphatian in origin.
I like the Ghyr connection, I would like to explore this further when the Ghyr gaz is published *hint* *hint* ;)
Håvard
Does really Kajaala and Littonia count as overcrowding? And is it neccesarily a problem that Alpha and Alphatia know about the area? That doesnt mean that they care about this rather barbaric wilderness. Giampaolo states that the lands of Norwold are supposed to be wildernesss. The Realms of Karawenn don't neccesarily have to change more civilized people's opinions that this is wilderness.
"Wilderness" is defined in the Companion Set as up to 1 person per square mile (CM1 defines Norwold as wilderness in the rules sense, not in IC perceptions).
This is hardly compatible with four kingdoms, each with its capitol city.
Let alone the fact that superimposing Karawenn's map with Norwold adds an entire mountain chain (8 or so high mountain hexes where there was only rolling hills and forests), which is unlikely do remain undiscovered when Karawenn lies only at one or two days of sailing from Alpha.
"Wilderness" is defined in the Companion Set as up to 1 person per square mile (CM1 defines Norwold as wilderness in the rules sense, not in IC perceptions).
This is hardly compatible with four kingdoms, each with its capitol city.
I think the bottom line to this is; yes including Karawenn will be a modification to the setting. As is adding anything whether home-made or not. The question is what kind of effect this will have on the setting and whether it is positive or negative.
Let alone the fact that superimposing Karawenn's map with Norwold adds an entire mountain chain (8 or so high mountain hexes where there was only rolling hills and forests), which is unlikely do remain undiscovered when Karawenn lies only at one or two days of sailing from Alpha.
Moving it to the west, as suggested by OldDawg, reduces this alteration of the geography considerably. Personally I have always considered the blank hexes of the CM1 map as "for the DM to fill in what he likes", rather than necessarily keeping the bland featureless landscape.
I dont see any reason why Karawenn should be undiscovered or unknown by Alpha or anyone else. If the concern is its effect on CM1, then the region can easily be defined as uninteresting due to local squabbles, constant troll invasions etc. The region is probably unlikely to be awarded as a dominion to anyone by Ericall.
OTOH, inclusion of the region could also enhance the experience of CM1, making it an additional side adventure, perhaps becoming an integral part of a CM1 campaign.
If you have already played through CM1 and wonder why Karawenn was never mentioned you could easily push the timeline forward, having Karawenn become settled on a serious scale at a later time.
Håvard