I ask this because a lot of folk don't like it, and so much was changed.
While in other worlds, wars, eventual death of major NPCs do happen, they don't kill of half the major kings (SKs) in a short set of novels and then apply that to the game lore.
Honestly, the 1st box set is so much better than the 2nd I didn't bother to buy the 2nd (after having read some of it, blech).
-I think Athas is best represented as the original, with no references to major changes, and then in other releases put in changes, thus leading to less confusion.
Athas.org has done a superb job with their releases and are vital for keeping DS alive, for which, my sincere thanks
But I honestly think the offical timeline wrecked much of the game...a "free" Tyr just....screws up the setting big style for example. King Kalak should have been a character for folk to enjoy in their games, hence I stick with the 1st boxed set. (Killed by an 8th lvl character a few months from game release, give me a break that was dumb!
)Then add in Paizo's work and...sorry Athas is mucked up to hell as far as I'm concerned, when there was absolutely no need to do that. Not Athas.Org's fault at all, but I honestly think it would be best for the setting if folk flat out rejected the official screw-up timeline and events.
(Please remember the stupid mess TSR was and some of the glaring errors in the books)
2) I don't think DS needed "new" classes. Again, Athas.org's done a great job for them, but I don't see a "need" for seperate classes like Templar and Gladiator, which are both perfectly well represented by the Fighter and Templar class respectively.
-Expanded feats for gladiator-type fighters, and a description of the feats and legal powers templars get would be sufficient.
-3rd Ed does a greater job of customization than 2nd Ed, although Templars and Gladiators were unique classes in 2nd Ed, there's no real need now. Templars' secular authority is purely based on their mundane jobs and perosanl skill (Diplomacy), not their magical power/levels.
-I think templars should be described as multi-class Clerics, with levels of Expert, Fighter or Psion as needed by their job and passions. Their Domains would be Tyranny (if have Complete Warrior), Law, Evil or others appropriate to their SK. Tyranny is very good for them, IMHO.
-While some players relish extra complexity, in reality, all it does is clutter the game up. Perhaps a matter of personal taste, but players should NOT have look up books for rules to non-standard stuff all the time.
-A gladiator is just a fighter regardless of what folk may suggest. A barbarian is very tough (d12 hp) and has more skills because of his life-style: primitive, harsh, needs ot be able to have hunting skills etc. A gladiator is a highly trained fighter, skilled in single person combat; soldiers are fighters trained in mass combat but who on average, have much less fights per year than a gladiator, yet effectively have longer training because they serve for 25+ years and don't die off so fast, except when they lose a major nasty battle ;)
-Atha's.org's presentaion of updated 2nd ed Gladiator and Templar classes is good, but I feel, redundant really. I'm thinking of long term here, no need to perpetuate a schism in classes.
3) The Domains for Athas cleric spells are too much of a mouthfull and for a DM, frankly, a pain in the arse, lol. While they give a good RP feel, there is simply no need for the complex names, domain names in 3rd Ed are kept short and are clearly symbolic for a very good reason: simplicity. It's hard enough for a DM making characters with out multi-word Domains that don't really express a simplistic design. For example:
"Blossom of the Sky" could be "Solaris"
"Fire from the Sky" could be "Fire-sky"
And so on.
I would also like standard PHB Domains added in the lists, for those who wish simplicity.
I realize many folk like the extra complexity, but I don't, because I, as DM, need to make many NPCs to fit in my games ad hoc. Character's stats are complex enough in 3rd ed without throwing in even more. It also makes new players/DMs have a hard time, and that is not in the interests of Dark SUn fans. While some relish yet more altered classes etc, many don't, they just wsh to play without having to go through a complex conversion etc. Compare running a Realms campign to Dark Sun...though each has it's own unique spells, PRCs etc, using the Athas.Org rules adds in direct alterations to PHb classes, and beyond class skills and Templar Secular Authority (an ability not class based but purely due to Diplomacy skill and other factors) it's really not all needed.
Imagine you are introducing new players to Dark Sun and show them the Athas.Org 3.5 pdf and they try to make sense of it all (and nto all players are grealty familiar with 3rd Ed or the Setting). The layout, descriptions etc are rgeat and fun, but it can be a bit hard to get used to it all, and that's bad. Over complexity can put folk off.
Something to think on?
And honestly, how often do you have to say the domain names during game time? :P
As for changing the timeline, setting aside the question of whether that was a good idea, what you ask would require us to shut down for two or three years ago and throw away most of the work we'd done. Even if what you propose would have been the better way to go (and I don't think it would have been), it obviously would not be worth the cost of shutting us down again to make the rules. We still haven't recovered as a community from shutting down all the storytellers to make rule books. What's done is done and we can only move on from here.
OTOH it would be pretty easy for any DM to adapt most Athas.org work to the year of Priest's Defiance.
As for complexity - All the other setting that I have seen have a hundred times as many book and reference guides out - all with new material in them. To say that DS is more complex the FR is rather obserd IMO - people have to learn new things all the time, be it for a new setting or a new book that came out, and none of the material in DS is so far out there that it would make it harder then any other setting - look at Eberron. That setting is VERY different on many aspects - yet it is wildly popular and people have flocked to that setting.
I have more, but do not wish to come off as if I am attacking you or anything - my suggestion would be that if you do not like it, then don't use it. If you are the DM you have total control over every aspect of the game and the material and rules you want to use.
"Blossom of the Sky" could be sky blossom. Solaris refers to sun specifically, which would cut out the other elements associated with the domain.
As a writer, I don't particularly like D&D's excessive "phrases of prepositioning," but prepositions have always overrun D&D magic. I'm not sure you can distangle them, or that it would be worth the effort to try.
When it comes to Templar, though, I could not disagree with you more. I think that our templar rocks; it fits the description in the PP and in Lynne Abbey's work. Frightening to face in combat, but not terribly flexible, and essentially different than other divine spellcasters.
It's *easier,* not harder, to write up a templar than to prep a standard D&D cleric, so that particular objection makes no sense to me.
If you want to argue that our templar is less like the version of the templar in the 2e rules, well that's true, but so what? Templars were more cool in the PP and in Abbey's work, and I think our templar follows that track.
Would it possible to see censored versions of the rules and PrC books? (I do realise that it's a big ask, but I'm clearly not the only person with such a desire).
We are bound by our "official" status to use the official timeline. It's part of our agreement with Wizards': all our products must make use of TSR released material.
AKA - Exactly what I had pointed out, but now confirmed by the resident legal guru of Athas.org. HAHA! :D
Thats right all - genius by day, savage slayer of halflings all the time!
We are bound by our "official" status to use the official timeline. It's part of our agreement with Wizards': all our products must make use of TSR released material.
I understand that you cannot stray from the timeline, but is making products for earlier parts of the timeline actually prohibited?
I understand that you cannot stray from the timeline, but is making products for earlier parts of the timeline actually prohibited?
What exactly is it you want, lollerkeet?
New adventures set in that time period? A version of DS3 for that time period? Stats for all NPCs, but for that time period?
The people I've talked to and that play in the status quo period found in the original box just adapt everything themselves, and imagine their own adventures.
Not seeing a need to do as you propose.
I understand that you cannot stray from the timeline, but is making products for earlier parts of the timeline actually prohibited?
Not that I've heard! If you've got a story or adventure for an earlier part of the timeline, by all means submit it!
We are bound by our "official" status to use the official timeline. It's part of our agreement with Wizards': all our products must make use of TSR released material.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure that this would prohibit submitting an adventure or story that took place earlier in the timeline.
I don't see us doing anything of the sort since we need adventure and city supps and don't have time to bifurcate like that. But if someone submitted finished products to us, and they were Athas.org quality, would we actually turn them down because of the timeline issue?
I do think shortening the domain names would help for sheer simplicity, hehe.
I hope folk in the future can sitll buy/get the original boxed set and works and are not "officially" squelched, or merley ignored and left out of catalogues :/
Templars to me do seem more multi-class. They have "divine like power" given to them by what's effectively a demi-god. but, most of them spend a lot of time in other pursuits..administration, combat, espionage and so on. Thus exaclty like members of other clerical rders in other worlds, they'd be multi-class. For flavour and WOTC approval I understand sticking with them as a seperate class. But a Cleric/Expert is far more what templars seem to be.
making NPCs is a chore, to populate your game, generating them has taken more and more time since 1st edition...I like others, invest in E-Tools/PC-Gen etc ot help this chore, so non-standard classes become painful.
As said, appreciate the hard work Athas.Orf folk put in, I jsut wish to keep folk realizing that many DS fans like the original work/time-line, SKs and so on, and it is good to keep that alive as well
It would allow gaming groups to begin their adventuring days in a period even earlier than is currently possible using Athas.org rules or converted 2nd Edition materials.
I would love to see several independent adventures being submited to Athas.org, all dealing with the political state of the world pre-Prism Pentad.
I have the dim feeling that is not the kind of answer people want to hear, making adventures themselves.
I remember one poster on the Planescape boards being really eager and full of enthusiasm to help planewalker.com "with anything, really anything; I am really eager to work on Planescape". So, lo and behold, he gets the answer that planewalker.com is really in need of adventures (they have loads of stories, monster supplements, prestige classes, races etc. already). The eager & enthusiastic poster willing to help with anything answers:
"blech, but adventures are so tedious and so much work"
That being said, I also play "in the old timeline". I like Denning for the work on Dark Sun, but I despise what he did to the setting just months after its release. I have not encountered problems with athas.org work this far.
What exactly is it you want, lollerkeet?
New adventures set in that time period? A version of DS3 for that time period? Stats for all NPCs, but for that time period?
I was suggesting less, not more; a censored version of the main book and PrC compilation you could give to new players without giving anything away (ie - no mention of a 'blue age' or anything like that).
Templar PrCs for the dead SKs are a pretty obvious missing factor, now that you ask, but there are hundreds of fighter and cleric PrCs from other settings that could be used with next to no modification.
We're bound to hold to the TSR/Dark Sun 2 timeline. We're also bound not to slaughter any iconic characters. Sorry guys, Sadira must live.
but:
- Our rules are time agnostic. You'll be able to use the DS3 rules at any point in the timeline, from mid brown age, to "current" day. Well, any point after the end of the green age, anyway.
- I don't belive that we're forced to only publish things that take place in the current time, so we can probably backfill adventures ... but the outcomes of those adventures have to support the official timeline, or at the very least, not undermine the timeline.
- We're in no way bound to Pazio's interpretation of the timeline 300 years hence. I don't really think that's going to be an issue though.
That said, standard "You're the DM, do as thou wilt" disclaimer.
making NPCs is a chore, to populate your game, generating them has taken more and more time since 1st edition...I like others, invest in E-Tools/PC-Gen etc ot help this chore, so non-standard classes become painful.
Well if you do not have the time to make NPCs then there is a project that I have been working on called the NPC Guide - it is premade fighters, psions, commoners, experts, ect from all of the core races and also some from the non-core - that can be put into an adventure or a random encounter (or if the PCs are getting lippy and you want to make them hurt a little) and ready to use. I decided to do this to aid DMs who needed people to flesh out an encounter and to aid them in making their own adventures.
Now this is not done - having fallen off the wayside while I have been working on the Appendix II and due to a heavy work load, but I hope to have the Appendix II finished soon and I will get back to work with my NPC Guide.
I was suggesting less, not more; a censored version of the main book and PrC compilation you could give to new players without giving anything away (ie - no mention of a 'blue age' or anything like that).
I made an edited version of the prestige class document for my players when I started my most recent DS campaign. I removed all references to anything that wouldn't be common knowledge at the start of Freedom. It's not as slickly laid out as the official release and was put together as an in-house document for my own gaming group, so I wouldn't host it on a website or anything, but I'd be happy to send you a copy. Drop me an email through my profile.