To be consistent with past descriptions of a world where almost everyone had a latent wild talent, I propose that your typical flunky slave or day laborer is a level 1 wilder. Note that a wilder with a charisma of 10 or less has no psionic power, but might have a psionic feat.
Thoughts? I can't exactly see how 3.5 rules come crashing down around our heads if we don't turn strip most of the population of the slightest adventuring potential.
For one thing, it was never the case that "almost everyone" had a psionic ability. All PCs were considered to be wild talents (at least) but the normal population was maybe 10% wild talent. IDHTBIFOMRN, so I can't pull the number, but WJ was pretty distinct about it.
Commoners really are the ideal class for representing your typical labor-slave. No skills to speak of, no great strength of ability or training ... slaves aren't trained, they don't get a leg up and no help. These are people held easily in check by a much smaller number of maybe-3rd/4th level overseers ...
Trained slaves (artisans, scribes, whathaveyou) get to be Experts. But your typical farm-slave, or the schlep-the-bricks-up-the-hill quarry slave? That's what the commoner class is for.
I think that commoner is the way to go, because use of psionics is limited somewhat. Also, expert would be a rare thing, as it doesn't take any skill to make bricks out of mud or tend a field. Actual farmers would disagree, and I understand, but I am talking about forced service. Slaves don't get, and don't need training in anything. Slaves are rather... Common(er) on Athas.
(they do gain levels with time you know)Some would be multi-class warriors, folk who've had to learn how to defend their village for example.
Experts represent the artisans, the craftsmen.
I imagine a roaming band of humans who collect from the wastes some rare and very valuable nectar from the nests of giant insects, before circling back to sell it to the citie's nobility...and I imagine none of them will have PC classes but none of them will be Commoner either. All either Warriors or Experts. Tougher environment.
No need for a level of Wilder to represent a wild talent NPC. Give it the Hidden Talent feat.
"actually fits the bill."
Fits which bill, exactly? I don't recall fiction or flavor text referring to hordes of helpless people.
This is not a stereotypical feudal society. Villages and farms get preyed on by bandits. Slaves will fight each other for food and better shelter, and the weak just don't survive.
"I imagine a roaming band of humans who collect from the wastes some rare and very valuable nectar from the nests of giant insects, before circling back to sell it to the citie's nobility...and I imagine none of them will have PC classes but none of them will be Commoner either. All either Warriors or Experts. Tougher environment."
Tougher environment, yes. I'd see the ones you describe as rangers or brutes.
But your typical farm-slave, or the schlep-the-bricks-up-the-hill quarry slave? That's what the commoner class is for.
In Dragonlance, sure. But in Dark Sun, your typical farm-slave is the guy that's going to get pressed into Nibenay's next offensive against Gulg. If your commoner doesn't get eaten by some strange form of cactus that appeared in the field, or pecked to death by a stray Kes'trekel, he's going to have his food taken from him by the tougher slaves until he starves.
I would use warrior, expert and aristocrat - the better of the NPC classes. As 1st level characters, they get a feat - which could be Hidden Talent.
I agree, for soldiers, artisans, and nobles. Ah. You're right, Jon; the warrior NPC class could work for field slaves, etc. Good idea.
Some classes, however, could be overrepresented in certain cities, such as warriors in Draj.
True, or Experts in Kurn and in the outer Dim Lands.
These are people held easily in check by a much smaller number of maybe-3rd/4th level overseers ...
See, I don't remember that ever being the case, Flip. The 2e equivalent to the commoner was the 0-level character, and Athas did not have those. You didn't have a couple 3rd/4th level overseers looking over a much larger number of slaves. Look at the Freedom module again. That was a special situation, true, but most of the slaves were average slaves taken forcefully from their masters.
This is not a stereotypical feudal society. Villages and farms get preyed on by bandits. Slaves will fight each other for food and better shelter, and the weak just don't survive.
Its not what I recall from reading the Prism Pentad and the Chronicles of Athas. Those citizens that are not successful merchants, or even nobles, guards, etc - a lot of the people - seem perfectly ordinary, just like in a feudal or an actual modern society, or a futuritic one I bet. (In one scene Sadira interacts with ordinary folk going to the Tyr's stadium, and in another Hamanu enters the home of ordinary near-poor people.)
Doing some mundane menial work requires nearly no training, nothing for sure that warrants an Expert level.
Maybe we should list all those jobs we think fit the bill.
I invite you all to list what jobs you imagine.
Commoner: laborer (farmer, docks unloader), menial worker (production of simple or crude wares), subsistence merchant (small wares shack).
Expert: scribe, foreman at a complex job site like a stonequarry or a mine (but not a brick quarry), at least half of the jobs cited under the Craft and Profession skills (blacksmith, leatherworker), guide for a specific region of the wastes, translator.
Warrior: low-ranking city guard or basic soldier in the army, bodyguard to a middle-class patron, bouncer or barman in a tavern.
If the guy were of lower level than 15, say...between 7 and 10, then I would have given him warriors and a 1st or 2nd level wizard. No more, and no fighters or higher level wizards.
Royal Escort: These are military units that the Grand Vizier personaly assigned Ah’Navor to facilitate his royal mission. Highly disciplined troops, they have been chosen for their loyalty and military experience. They will not desert their master or turn against their queen.
Raamin Soldiers, Human Fighter 2 (4): [color=Navy]CR 2; Medium humanoid (human); HD 2d10+4; hp 19; Init +1; Spd 30 ft.; AC 17, touch 11, flat-footed 16; Base Atk +2; Grp +4; Atk/Full Atk +5 melee (1d6+2, shortspear) or +5 melee (1d6+1/
Brax, for a project I have this CR 15 special envoy of Abalach-Re, and he has an escort. Maybe this will give you an idea of what low-level well-trained troops look like, so as to know what non-trained troops would look like (i.e. warrior levels).
If the guy were of lower level than 15, say...between 7 and 10, then I would have given him warriors and a 1st or 2nd level wizard. No more, and no fighters or higher level wizards.
Though I certainly wouldn't claim Athasian NPCs are all superpowered combat monsters, I find your estimation to be a bit low.
IDHTBIFOMRN
If you ever do this again - you will experience the full brunt of my wraith
Hey Pennarin - can I incorporate those feller you stated out in my NPC Guide? Pretty please with broy and esper weed on top.
Though I certainly wouldn't claim Athasian NPCs are all superpowered combat monsters, I find your estimation to be a bit low.
There's always the possibility of increasing the levels, but in the advant that this NPC escort is considered too weak I'll probably either increase the number of troops of each type or I'll add a few more unique troops.
Maybe a pack (2-5) of domesticated jhakars (advanced 6 HD variety) or an enslaved b'rohg pair.
About one year and a half ago I posted my ideas on the topic of the Athasian NPCs general strength in this thread, and I believe it's quite pertinent to the discussion at hand.
I agree that the subject comes up often enough (each time demonstrating that everyone has a vastly different opinion on the subject) that maybe Athas.org ought to look into redesigning the DMG NPC information for Athas.
People inside the cities and client villages ought to be different from people met outside of them. Etc.
Of what class and approximate levels are composed the SKs' armies? Etc.
There's always the possibility of increasing the levels, but in the advant that this NPC escort is considered too weak I'll probably either increase the number of troops of each type or I'll add a few more unique troops.
Well, it really depends on the party's average level. Back in 2e, NPC strength varied a lot, from module to module: Marauders of Nibenay featured NPCs of 3rd to 5th level, whereas Dregoth Ascending featured NPCs of vast power (as evidenced by the athas.org conversion). I don't think either adventure is truly descriptive of how powerful the average Athasian really is.
See, I don't remember that ever being the case, Flip. The 2e equivalent to the commoner was the 0-level character, and Athas did not have those. You didn't have a couple 3rd/4th level overseers looking over a much larger number of slaves. Look at the Freedom module again. That was a special situation, true, but most of the slaves were average slaves taken forcefully from their masters.
I disagree with this. Even on athas, everyone was assumed to be 0-level unless otherwise stated. Most of the normal citizens, slaves, and irregular soliders, were specifically listed as 0-level on the NPC master tables.
Giving more than 10% or so of a large population a class/level at all would have been absurd, even for such a harsh world.
In 3E, the commoner "class" works perfectly fine.
Well, it really depends on the party's average level. Back in 2e, NPC strength varied a lot, from module to module [...]
This CR15 NPC has an escort of vastly lower CRs (from 2 to 5), so the question is: Is the overall CR of the encounter adequate for this or that party of PCs?
The section of the DMG on encounters' challenge ratings will reveal this information.
Personally, I never checked. A CR15 NPC can only be beaten by a minimum party strength, so is the escort too easily defeated for such a party?
These escorts seem plausible. It's likely they could by their master a few rounds of breathing room to either flee or make an uninterrupted attack. There is also the added deterrent of 8 extra people, and the usefulness of 8 extra pair of eyes/hands. Plus, even low level characters can sting if attacking a weak point, or from surprise.
Raamin Master Tracker, Half-elf Expert 3 (1): [color=Navy]CR 2; Medium humanoid (half-elf); HD 3d6+3; hp 15; Init +1; Spd 30 ft.; AC 14, touch 11, flat-footed 13; Base Atk +2; Grp +2; Atk/Full Atk +2 melee (1d8/
The Freedom NPC Master Table has only one of 25 of the character types listed as a level 0 character: Noble, Minor. The three nobles that Kalak throws to the mob.
Your generic "slave, Human" is a 2nd level fighter. I'd downgrade that to warrior. Your "Thug" is a 2nd level fighter.
"Elf, Typical" is a 3rd levle thief.
The Road to Urik NPC Master Table has only one zero level character: the "Soldier, Militia" (bear in mind those guys had just been drafted into the militia to fight the war with Urik.) The regular soldiers are Fighter 1s. The Mercenaries are F4s. The Guards are F3s.
Its not what I recall from reading the Prism Pentad and the Chronicles of Athas. Those citizens that are not successful merchants, or even nobles, guards, etc - a lot of the people - seem perfectly ordinary, just like in a feudal or an actual modern society, or a futuritic one I bet. (In one scene Sadira interacts with ordinary folk going to the Tyr's stadium, and in another Hamanu enters the home of ordinary near-poor people.)
Doing some mundane menial work requires nearly no training, nothing for sure that warrants an Expert level.
Maybe we should list all those jobs we think fit the bill.
I invite you all to list what jobs you imagine.
Commoner: laborer (farmer, docks unloader), menial worker (production of simple or crude wares), subsistence merchant (small wares shack).
Expert: scribe, foreman at a complex job site like a stonequarry or a mine (but not a brick quarry), at least half of the jobs cited under the Craft and Profession skills (blacksmith, leatherworker), guide for a specific region of the wastes, translator.
Warrior: low-ranking city guard or basic soldier in the army, bodyguard to a middle-class patron, bouncer or barman in a tavern.
I agree with most of your characterizations for expert and warrior, except:
1. Guide for a specific region of the wastes? Not an expert. Ranger or Brute. This are Athasian wastes, not Yellowstone park. :D
2. A typical professional translator should be a level 1 bard. No question about it. You are multiligual, and you know that there's more to know than just a language; you're not a good translator unless you have the cultural knowledge to back it up, and that screams bard.
3. I don't think there's any such thing as a brick quarry.
As for a commoner, do you really think that a menial subsistence merchant on Athas goes more than a couple weeks without someone trying to rob him? Unless you live in Eldaarich where you can get put to death for possession of a weapon, no inhabitant of a city-state engages in a business accessible to the public without a weapon, maybe armor.
But professional skills have nothing to do with the general kind of threat that I'm talking about.
Giving more than 10% or so of a large population a class/level at all would have been absurd, even for such a harsh world.
If it's absurd, then you should be able to show why it's absurd.
orcs are not humans, this is important, they have an innate drive for barbarity, **** and violence, they ENJOY fighting. Thus the concept of them being "warriors" is literally stupid. In orc society the weak are slaved or eaten or killed. This means every orc would have to be a 1st or 2nd level barbarian, every one! However, because of the instability of their culture, lack of healing, support for each other, it is rare for them to rise ot higher level than this.
It must be understood that their entire society gears to battle. Note societies on Earth who've done that, then think of 90% of their population being combatants: ie, Nazi germany, Aztecs etc and what that would have done for history...
Normal humans societies though rely on a vast amount of "commoners" creating the fod/materials that support the military and experts.
A "Warrior" is a person who learns to fight from necessity, not inner desire, that is the big difference. It's not abut stats, it's about inner drive. A warrior adequately describes a militia soldier, not a regular professional soldier. It is also a good class for a peasant who must defend himself from marauders etc. Frontier farmers would be Commoner/Warriors. Street toughs who engage in muggings, gang fights also can be warriors, they lack the guts/drive to be truly skilled fighters but they are more dangerous than the average person.
Thus I'd suggest:
Athasian city folk mostly commoners 1st to 3rd. Street toughs Rogue1/Warrior1 to Rogue3/warrior3. Village farmer commoner 2/Warrior 1. Militia soldier warrior 1st to third. Professional soldier fighter 2nd to 4th.
Etc
True, or Experts in Kurn and in the outer Dim Lands.
Exactly.
f you ever do this again - you will experience the full brunt of my wraith
It´s a pretty common acronym, well at least from the golden ages (or dark ages) of the mailing lists. :P
IDHTBIFOMRN = I don´t have the book in front of me right now.
Hey Pennarin - can I incorporate those feller you stated out in my NPC Guide? Pretty please with broy and esper weed on top.
Its twice you asked me on those same NPCs! :P
I don't think there's any such thing as a brick quarry.
Heh, you got me there. ;) I guess it's called a...brickyard? Not a native speaker, remember? I actually never had to search for the names brickyard and stone quarries...pretty good considering, don't ya think? :P
The Freedom NPC Master Table has only one of 25 of the character types listed as a level 0 character: Noble, Minor. The three nobles that Kalak throws to the mob.
Your generic "slave, Human" is a 2nd level fighter. I'd downgrade that to warrior. Your "Thug" is a 2nd level fighter.
"Elf, Typical" is a 3rd levle thief.
"Slave, typical", "Slave, Dwarf", and "Slave, Elf" are also 0-level. They have a dash for class, meaning no class. Their hit-dice also corrispond with 0-level humans, elves, and dwarves.
The Road to Urik NPC Master Table has only one zero level character: the "Soldier, Militia" (bear in mind those guys had just been drafted into the militia to fight the war with Urik.) The regular soldiers are Fighter 1s. The Mercenaries are F4s. The Guards are F3s.
And all of that makes perfect sense, given the composition of the army/adventure.
think that a menial subsistence merchant on Athas goes more than a couple weeks without someone trying to rob him?
I doubt it.
There are places I've been in real life where you won't go more than a few weeks without someone trying to rob you. I rarely go farther than the end of my driveway without being armed. Compaired to many people, I handle myself rather well. Still, there is no way in hell I would give my fantasy counter-part exceptional ability scores or levels in any class; even proficency with a weapon would be a stretch. Im not special, and neither are most people, even if they have seen some s***.
Armor on athas is impractical for your typical daily toil for commoners. Too hot, too heavy, to much maintinance.
If it's absurd, then you should be able to show why it's absurd.
Because classes and levels (beyond commoner type things) are the pervue of those with significant skill/expertise in skills that would make someone suitable for adventuring. Classes/levels are special in of themselves. That is the way it has always been.
60-80% of people in the urban centers of Athas (I believe it was "Veiled Alliance" that listed the percentages of slaves, freemen, and nobles) would qualify as typical slaves (or freed typical slaves), and these were clearly 0-level.
There are very rough areas in other campaign settings (easily on par with life in an Athasian city-state, client village, or large slave tribe), and typically, commoners were still 0-level.
I feel that giving a common street-tough something like a level as a fighter and a rogue is a major stretch. Same goes for things like bard translators, wizard apothecaries, ect.
IDHTBIFOMRN = I don´t have the book in front of me right now.
Reminds me of...
MUAIHES = Most unwieldly acronym I have ever seen.
I left Paris when I was ten years old, and have not been back, so my vocabulary is that of a child, so at best I can pass for a retarded Parisien man :embarrass.
In a quarry, you cut stuff from open ground, usually rock. Bricks are formed and molded, and usually baked in our world, but in Athas, they probably use Adobe construction for most homes, which is sun-dried brick, painted to prevent rain erosion.
Although apparently there's still pieces of a sumerian adobe ziggurat. Beats me how it survived the weather all these years, when it's essentially just dried mud and clay, unbaked.
Everyone was a third-level this or a second-level that. I think that many D&D players get too caught up in game mechanics. It seems like any time someone exhibits skills or toughness, they must consequently have levels to distinguish themselves from the rabble.
Good housewives = 2nd level Housewife. A proficient warehouse worker has at least four levels in "stacking boxes" and receives a +2 bonus to any crate-related proficiency check.
It's all absurd.
Slaves, workers, salesmen, etc. -ordinary people are just ordinary folks. If you wanna make them tougher, give them a few more HPs. It seems a bit excessive to load every character up with various class levels.
Since you're talking specifically about Kurn and Eldaarich -yeah, the Eldaarish would probably be more adapted to all of the silt that blows around them. And I imagine that the miners in the outlying islands would be tough, but I don't think that justifies giving them levels as fighters. And even though all of the Eldaarish learn martial arts, I think that just makes them commoners with martial arts proficiency, not fighters. As far as Kurn is concerned, I don't know what you have in mind for it's society, so it is difficult to tell what class levels you might have in mind. Perhaps every citizen undergoes mandatory military conscription. Even then, I would still stat out those folks as "commoners" with some basic weapons proficiency, rather than giving them fighter levels.
I am working with limited information here, since I am not sure exactly what you had in mind for either Kurn or Eldaarich. Care to expand on your thoughts?
itf
I feel that giving a common street-tough something like a level as a fighter and a rogue is a major stretch. Same goes for things like bard translators
Other than your feeling, how would you defend the statement that a bard translator is a "stretch"? A stretch of what, exactly?
Why are we afraid of making Athas tougher than other worlds?
OK, I could see Saragar being full of Commoners, maybe.
But consider that the clever guy that guides you around the city (city State of Tyr supplement) by core rules has a prestige class. At least 6th level.
The word "commoner" appears only once in "City-State of Draj," and that's not as a character class, but as a social caste (under Draji Cuisine).
The only reason we ended up including the Barbarian class into DS3 is that we reckoned that they'd serve well as brutes and thugs in the cities:
Brutality is a way of life in Athas, as much in some of the cities as in the dwindling tribes of Athas’ harsh wastes. Cannibal headhunting halflings (who occasionally visit Urik from the Forest Ridge) sometimes express shock at
the savagery and bloodshed of the folk that call themselves “civilized” and live between walls of stone. They would be more horrified if they were to see the skull piles of Draj, experience the Red Moon Hunt in Gulg, or watch a seemingly docile house slave in Eldaarich rage as she finally “goes feral”, taking every frustration of her short cruel life out on whoever happens to be closest to hand. Nibenese sages claim that the potential for savagery is in every sentient race, and the history of Athas seems to support their claim.
Cross-reference that to what the WC says about lots of normal people in Eldaarich going postal.
Originally Posted by TheBrax
The Road to Urik NPC Master Table has only one zero level character: the "Soldier, Militia" (bear in mind those guys had just been drafted into the militia to fight the war with Urik.) The regular soldiers are Fighter 1s. The Mercenaries are F4s. The Guards are F3s.
And all of that makes perfect sense, given the composition of the army.
On the way out, maybe. On the way back in from war with Urik? Those guys are going to pick up a class level, and it's not going to be in "commoner."
How and why does someone progress as a "commoner"?
"Hi, I just went out to the wars, saw 3/4 of my comrades die, fought off wave after wave of Urikites and halflings, and I don't know how to use a weapon any better than when I started?"
I don't buy it. It's not much of a story.
We're talking hundreds, probably thousands of Tyrian veterans of the war with Urik. Also, the supps were clear that the Warrens were incredibly crime-infested areas, and that there are plenty of people with too much time on their hands.
I think your average Tyrian's going to know more about fighting than your average Dragonlance/FR type. He's got the motivation and opportunity. Kids are growing up with Gladiators like Rikus for heroes -- it's not like Rome where gladiators were moral untouchables (but even then they sometimes became heroes).
With guns or pepper spray, it's fairly easy to to protect yourself in our world as a commoner.
Pepper spray is illegal in my area, and getting a permit for a firearm is impractical. I'd rather not have to be wary of police as well, so I carry a knife with a fixed blade.
Other than your feeling, how would you defend the statement that a bard translator is a "stretch"? A stretch of what, exactly?
In my mind it would be a stretch of plausibility if the majority of people who make their living as a translator were bards, as the bard class implies so much more, and I am a minimalist.
A bard becoming a translator is not a stretch, but saying that translator implies bard is.
The only reason we ended up including the Barbarian class into DS3 is that we reckoned that they'd serve well as brutes and thugs in the cities
A mistake, in my opinion.
Cross-reference that to what the WC says about lots of normal people in Eldaarich going postal.
You don't need a class to lose control when under stress.
On the way out, maybe. On the way back in from war with Urik? Those guys are going to pick up a class level, and it's not going to be in "commoner."
"Hi, I just went out to the wars, saw 3/4 of my comrades die, fought off wave after wave of Urikites and halflings, and I don't know how to use a weapon any better than when I started?"
I don't buy it. It's not much of a story.
We're talking hundreds, probably thousands of Tyrian veterans of the war with Urik. Also, the supps were clear that the Warrens were incredibly crime-infested areas, and that there are plenty of people with too much time on their hands.
The war with urik was quite short, and there seem to have been few Tyrian survivors.
The majority that made it back, who did not have a class before, probably would have learned to use a few more weapons, and had a bit more practical knowledge concerning the workings of an army in battle. Some may have picked up a class, but I doubt the majority would.
Marching around with an army for a few months and actually fighting a handful of times is not going to dramatically improve the individual combat prowess of a person, or set them on the path of a full-time warrior.
An extra hit-point, a higher morale score, being able to use a weapon or two without penalty, plus greater ability to follow orders, works as a team, and force march, are likely to be the extent of the improvements for most.
Those who already had classes, who were more devoted to fighting, and more able to survive it, may certainly have advanced in level. They would have played a larger role and learned more because of it.
I think your average Tyrian's going to know more about fighting than your average Dragonlance/FR type. He's got the motivation and opportunity.
I'm not convinced this is true. The average person from any of these world is trying to get by. Most the skills and druggery required for that, for most people, are not part of a class.
Kids are growing up with Gladiators like Rikus for heroes -- it's not like Rome where gladiators were moral untouchables (but even then they sometimes became heroes).
I don't see why this would be relivant.
I have an issue with the amount levels a person has in an NPC-class though. I see a lot of NPCs which are Com1, be it a 20-year-old farmer boy or a 50-year-old store owner, as if this class has only one level. To a lesser extend this also applies to the other NPC-classes. Why seems to exist the notion that these NPCs do not gain experience? Maybe I will get told that this is D&D 3.0/5 nonsense, but Sean K. Reynolds wrote an excellent article about that issue.
I've been thinking for a while about a more formalized method of determining character level for NPC-class characters in a community. After some conversations with the folks on the D&D-Tech list (a small private list for the finer points of D&D rules discussion) a while ago, I thought of the foundations of a theory.
The Typical Peasant
Let's assume that a human peasant "becomes" a Com1 upon reaching age 20 (I could start it at 15 or 18, but this makes my calculations easier in the long run). The life of a typical peasant is not easy; they work long hours, don't get a lot of food, and don't have a lot of safety and security in their lives. In a way, they are like modern-day people who manage to scrape by every month with enough money for rent, food, and basic supplies, but usually don't have anything left for luxuries. Each month is a matter of survival. In a way, each month is like an "encounter" with a dangerous situation--starvation and death.
Encounters With Death
When viewed in this fashion, a month for a commoner is like a combat encounter for an adventurer. There is a risk and a reward, and some are harder than others. Like any encounter, it should have a CR. Now, most peasants manage to live month to month, and a month doesn't use 20% of the peasant's available resources, so the month's CR is going to be somewhat arbitrary (and will fluctuate over the course of the year). But let's assume that the month's CR is equal to the peasant's character level (using the assumption that "life doesn't throw you anything you can't handle), so a brand-new peasant Com1 would have months that are CR 1. (Note that as the peasant gains levels, running the same farm isn't going to get harder just because he's better at running a farm, so the monthly CR should stay at CR 1).
XP For An Encounter
A 1st-level party would gain 300 XP for defeating a CR 1 encounter, so a 1st-level peasant would gain 300 XP for defeating an encounter with a CR 1 month. However, the peasant normally isn't at an instant life-or-death risk at any one point (unlike an adventurer), so I'm going to reduce that award by half, to 150 XP. Furthermore, the peasant is probably married and sharing the work with a spouse (just like adventurers share the work in a fight), so we should divide that XP between the two of them, for 75 each. If we multiply that value by 12 months, we get 900 XP for the peasant. To make my future math much easier, I'm going to say that averages out to about 1,000 XP in a year.
Progression After A Year
So after a year, the peasant has 1,000 XP -- enough to reach level 2! Because XP awards for CR 1 encounters remain the same until the party level reaches 7th level, the peasant is going to continue to earn XP at a rate of 1,000 per year until he reaches 7th level. A character reaches 7th level at 21,000 XP, which (at a rate of 1,000 XP per year after age 20) puts the peasant at age 41, which is middle age, and getting toward the upper limit for typical medieval humans. In short, you can determine a peasant's level by subtracting 20 from his age, multiplying by 1,000, and checking the XP chart.
Beyond 7th Level
At 7th level, a CR 1 encounter only gives 263 XP, so the peasant is only earning 877 XP per year, so it takes him about 8 years (to age 49) to reach 8th level (instead of 7). At 8th level, a CR 1 encounter only gives 200 XP, so the peasant is only earning 667 XP per year, and it takes him 12 years (age 61) to reach 9th level. At 9th level and beyond, characters don't normally earn XP for CR 1 encounters, so the peasant doesn't earn any more XP for a typical month, which means that unless there is an entire year of hardship he's not likely to gain any more levels. Given that age 61 puts him well into old age, he's not likely to survive a harsh year anyway.
Other NPC Classes
What applies to commoners applies equally well to adepts, aristocrats, experts, and warriors; their challenges are of a different sort, but few are instantly life-threatening (even warriors that are non-mercenaries such as city guards rarely have to deal with anything more dangerous than a drunk, and those that do end up with more XP because of it), and so this gradual increase in levels works for them as well.
Nonhumans
Although the term "peasant" isn't totally appropriate, this system works just as well for nonhumans as well as humans. Because the XP awards trickle off at the middle levels, the increased lifespan of these nonhumans doesn't generate extremely high-level peasants. Those "peasants" who live long and end up reaching levels above 9th probably had some interesting encounters along the way (anyone who lives 100 years or more in an elven forest or dwarven subterranean city probably has had to deal with monster attacks at least once) and could probably eke out a few more levels.
PC Classes
You could apply this system to characters with PC classes as well, but I would severely restrict their ability in one of two ways: One, either reduce the XP awarded by 50% again, as these adventuring classes don't get much out of not adventuring. Two, only allow people to acquire NPC classes with this method, so your retired Ftr4 captain of the guard is going to have to pick up warrior or expert levels if he wants to advance, simply because he's not getting the right kind of experience to advance as a fighter.
If you agree with that then low-level commoners are a necessity; individuals who can't protect themselves, who are abused in various ways on a regular basis, who barely make it through the day alive....and I'm not even talking about the slaves, here.
As others have said, I'm of the mind that those living in the wilderness are probably warriors and other more "potent" NPC classes than those in the city, and many may even have a level or two of a normal PC class. But they're still probably not more than level 3 or so, tops - I think the DMG rules governing class level breakdowns amongst various-sized groups of people is probably just as pertinent here as elsewhere, with the addendum that those in "wasteland" settings probably should have the commoner class replaced with warrior or expert or pretty much anything that gives a few more HPs and skill points to spend on Survival, Spot, and other necessities of living amongst hostile cacti and such.
Its twice you asked me on those same NPCs! :P
Hummm - I know that you gave me the ok to use one of them when I was initially starting the NPC Guide, but I do not recall seeing the others - but I just wanted to make sure it was okay with you before I copied them into the material I am doing - that way you will get the credit when I get this thing finished.
By I will take this as being your ok - seeing as you did say it was ok before - unless you tell me otherwise.
I have a bit of the Guide done - not nearly enough IMO, and I have neglected to contact my assistant Wolfheart for a while - but I have recently received another person who volunterred - so I hope I will be able to get this thing done before year end.
I think NPC- or PC-classes are a matter of preference. I personally use the NPC-classes a lot, especially in city-states, but use more PC-classes for people living in the wilderness. Just my take.
I have an issue with the amount levels a person has in an NPC-class though. I see a lot of NPCs which are Com1, be it a 20-year-old farmer boy or a 50-year-old store owner, as if this class has only one level. To a lesser extend this also applies to the other NPC-classes. Why seems to exist the notion that these NPCs do not gain experience? Maybe I will get told that this is D&D 3.0/5 nonsense, but Sean K. Reynolds wrote an excellent article about that issue.
I like it - the material he (Sean) has written makes a lot of sense - but being DS I personally would tweek the numbers a little, just because of the average difficulty of the world - but overall I think that what he has developed is spot on with many things.
Pepper spray is illegal in my area, and getting a permit for a firearm is impractical. I'd rather not have to be wary of police as well, so I carry a knife with a fixed blade.
Carrying a fixed blade long enough to fight with is not illegal, but pepper spray is?
In any event, according to the principles that Elonarc laid out below (from Sean Reynolds) as to what a commoner is and gains experience, if you're having confrontations every 2 weeks or so with a knife, you're probably at least a warrior, not a commoner.
Mastery of words and languages implies bard. With an MA in English, a minor in Chemistry and my penchant for storytelling, I'm closer to Athasian bard than anything else, although lawyer could arguably imply templar :D
Good stuff, Elonarc! Thank you for that article. I don't like his starting assumption of start at l1 at 20 yrs old, but he says right off it's an arbitrary assumption for purposes of calculation. He seems to ignore that child labor was the norm until not that long ago. My own father was stocking in his father's grocery store at age 6 and after his dad died, he was one of his family's breadwinners by age 12. Remember that young kid in the Veiled Alliance supp? Or even more dramatically in our own world, remember those 10 year old Burmese twins that until recently were smoking cigars and running the "God's Army" rebel group? If real life presents such amazing stories, it would be a a mistake to structure our fantasy worlds to be more drab and predictable than the real thing.
XP For An Encounter
A 1st-level party would gain 300 XP for defeating a CR 1 encounter, so a 1st-level peasant would gain 300 XP for defeating an encounter with a CR 1 month. However, the peasant normally isn't at an instant life-or-death risk at any one point (unlike an adventurer), so I'm going to reduce that award by half, to 150 XP. Furthermore, the peasant is probably married and sharing the work with a spouse (just like adventurers share the work in a fight), so we should divide that XP between the two of them, for 75 each. If we multiply that value by 12 months, we get 900 XP for the peasant. To make my future math much easier, I'm going to say that averages out to about 1,000 XP in a year.
As with a party, division of labor allows you to take on greater challenges. Married people tend to have more 1/2 CR encounters, in my experience. Sean must not have children, or perhaps he's suppressing memories :D
Brax, who has a five year old who regularly raises challenges of CR 3 or above.
That's also a good reason why we probably should not stat out Athasian Gith or wilderness elves as warriors, though...
By I will take this as being your ok - seeing as you did say it was ok before - unless you tell me otherwise.
As long as you give me the ability to add more NPCs in the future, and of course to modify this batch so its more generic. Look at your email.
Show us the important NPCs and let us wonder what classes and levels the competition has.
A proposition
A weak spirited slave at age 50 is still only going to be a lvl 1 or 2 commoner. A scheming determined slave to a templar eager to keep his pampered post by sheer cronyism and bloody minded determination, but with no other skills/abilities of note, could be a commoner 9! Why not?
Have you never met exceptional people? I sure as heck have. My grandfather was a bouncer back in the 1930s and that means he was one ~tough~ sob, lol. But he was respectable and ram-rod straight which is why he was respected. Despite having a crippled leg caused by an accident in a steel mill, only an idiot would argue with him, he coudl bend 6 inch nails in his hands but, most importantly, he had that iron will that makes folk REALLY not to be trifled with.
You go into a shop in Tyr, it's owner maybe a commoner 3 to 5, or an Expert, experts have higher Intelligence and greater drive to understand and create. A "master trader" , a skilled/scheming/master of the market trader, a master craftsman, all could be experts. As time goes on their level should increase, as for all folk who don't succumb to apathy etc.
Joe Bob street-tough, is not a fighter, but he sure ain't a commoner, he's eager and willign to use his club and obsidian knife..but he's no match for a gladiator or proffessional swordsman, he's not even much of a thief in the sense of theft, but he sure likes stabbing in the back, thus warrior/rogue. His friend though is a street fighter, he engages in illegal gladiatorial fights in back alleyways, determined, skilled if not so polished as a trained gladiator but he's got the guts, and learned by observation and survival of dangerous and lethal combat...he could be a fighter 5 to 7.
Exceptional people exist in the real world, in more extreme environemnts, people tend ot extremes: of banality, of drive, of honour, of greed, of power, determined to survive and so on. Athas is an extreme environment, weaklings die, that simple. Weak is about Wisdom, and also Constituion. Illness, stupidity, sloth = death in such a harsh place.
Doesn't mean folk get bonus scores, it means those with low scores die off!
Silverblade, your stuff is all good but Brax suggests most athasian people are exceptional!
I don't think Pennarin meant to equivocate there, so let me clarify my actual position. I suggested from a conventional D&D standpoint, most Athasian people are exceptional. Elonarc made some valid arguments, and persuaded me to modify that position to almost everyone outside the city-states is exceptional, but probably less than half of most city-states are exceptional.
But unless you've changed your mind about interplanar and interworld travel, and have decided to import thousands of conventional peasants from Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms, we should be looking at world facts, not conventional D&D demographics, to determine how many commoners go where.
Brax, maybe you should refrain from stating the populace in your book, since as you can see there is wide uneasiness about making any bit official. Show us the important NPCs and let us wonder what classes and levels the competition has.
Pennarin, even if a handful of opinions here constituted "wide uneasiness" (it doesn't) I came here to get ideas, not to take pulses or get permissions. Elonarc's shown me ideas, and those persuade me. I'm an unrepentant Dark Sun purist storyteller, and I'm not going to toss out project content based on an unsolicited straw vote by people who have not read the projects. I would appreciate your not making a suggestion like that on a public forum again. I assure you that the appropriate forum (the Paper Nest, obviously) will discuss this and other general cultural issues. Population is not a mechanical issue therefore not for the bureaus; the Paper Nest has Athas.org's storytellers.
I am not part of the Paper Nest, or the Senate, so really, what other place is there for me to voice my opinion? (Personally at you, through email maybe?)
Mmm, well Brax I'm not much an active templar, and I've contacted other bureaus about only twice since I've been onboard, so I do not know protocol (if any). All the protocol I know is that one should not send directly to a mailing list he is not a member of, but rather aim at a member of the list.
I am not part of the Paper Nest, or the Senate, so really, what other place is there for me to voice my opinion? (Personally at you, through email maybe?)
Last I checked, Pennarin, you and I exchange emails regularly. I often ask your advice. You've been amazingly helpful in putting me in touch with people who are interested in the project, from artists to rules templars. Do you seriously think that I'm not going to listen to your (email) input under those circumstances?
Conversely, I've gone through one pass of your emporium making comments and edits and am about to go through another pass. I'm delighted to help and offer my skills and insights to your project.
But surely you would not want me telling you how to run your project 1) on a public board, and 2) before I'd even read your project.
That last one's the kicker. If you've already made up your mind about what percentage of commoners should be in Kurn and Eldaarich and in the Trembling plains before you've even read their situation, based on some preconceived norm then you could get God, Troy Denning, and my wife on your side, and still not sway me. :D That's a lot of persuasive authority, but authority alone doesn't have that much sway with me.
If I thought that decisions about characters would be made by authority decisions and not based on the story or the situation, by people who hadn't read the supplements, I would stop writing.
Now I'm very interested in your logical response to Elonarc's article. Whether the rules that Sean Reynolds laid out (regular life threat = PC class) applies, or whether you go by another rule.
Also, how you'd stat kids, generally, since Sean Reynolds seems to assume that a 12 year old is less than a commoner.
(Eldaarich is, like I said, a very dark place)
I am working with limited information here, since I am not sure exactly what you had in mind for either Kurn or Eldaarich. Care to expand on your thoughts?
Bravo. I agree; you need the facts to make a determination who should be what.
Good guess on mandatory conscription for Kurn.
Because there are so few people in Kurn, and since they are keeping up the deception that it's as big as it used to be, every adult citizen does time in the militia, including rotations and marches outside Kurn's lands, making a showing against Eldaarich, etc.
But citizen in Kurn almost always means artisans. Most are experts, although bards and warriors are common. More preservers than any other city, obviously. There are at least three preserver claves (which serve as guilds and extended families, political units etc.), and many preservers who aren't in specific preserver claves. Veiled Alliance says that 1% of city-dwellers have some wizard level, IIRC. Kurn probably makes that at least 5%, but that includes multi-classed. Kurnan women tend towards being wilders. I go back and forth on whether to have a psionics academy in Kurn. (Obviously there's one in New Kurn but that is unknown to almost everyone in Kurn).
The only non-expert claves are mostly non-human: Water-haulers (who are Baazrag; Kurn is the only city-state that treats them as sentient creatures, since a Kurnan spies discovered how to communicate with them and created a network of Baazrag spies. The speaker of the water-herders clave is human -- actually the same retired spy that first recruited them and promised them a better life if they'd help her, and she communicates and negotiates on their behalf.) Herders, like the Dwarven Kipherd clave, who herd kip outside the safety of the Kurnlands, and only come back to Kurn twice a year to sell their stock and vote.
Outside the Kurnlands, you're subject to attacks from the seven bandit states, from Tareks, Kreen, from raids by Elves or other herder tribes, nomadic herders called the "Eloy" who are mixed-human-elf so many generations back that they don't even use the term "half-elf" anymore.
Kurn's slaves are mostly Dimlands refugees. These fall into two categories: the ones from the craft villages, again nearly all experts, although there are some like the herders on Crodlu Island that would be commoners, since the Red Guards keep outsiders out. Commoners with a martial arts feat. Most other craft villagers will be experts with a martial arts feat, since they are artisans.
The other refugees are from Eldaarich itself, but there's going to be a disproportionately high number of wilders and psions here, because DASKINOR IS IMPRISONING AND KILLING PEOPLE WHO GET CAUGHT EXHIBITING PSIONIC ABILITY, LIKE THE WC SAYS. Many may be human commoners with a hidden talent and a martial arts feat, I guess. And some "refugees" are templar, bard, or psionic spies for Eldaarich. (But you ask, hasn't Daskinor gotten rid of the psionic ones? A: Not the ones that were sent out before the policy game into effect. Some don't know about the policy, and some have found out, and don't want to go home).
That's where the Savak (secret police) "Retirement Party" comes into play. A Savak retirement party is a group of specialists who have the thankless job of tracking down spies that won't come home, and killing them.
Using the East Germany Stasi as a model, we reckoned that 1 in 6 Eldaarish persons are either members of or informants for the secret police. Lots of commoner informants, sure, but when you talk heavies, folks that help make people dissapear, that's a serious PC class job. No expert, no warrior, is going to have the job of nabbing someone on the street or in their home and hauling them away to never be seen again. I don't think that's on the profession list. Nor is "retirement party member." In my humble opinion, going into enemy territory to kill a professional spy that's gone native or has chosen to violate orders, is not a 9 to 5 job.
I kinda hated how EVERY single NPC always had to have levels in one class or another. Reading through various D&D material, I was often struck with there thought: "Why are there no commoners?"
Everyone was a third-level this or a second-level that. I think that many D&D players get too caught up in game mechanics. It seems like any time someone exhibits skills or toughness, they must consequently have levels to distinguish themselves from the rabble.
Good housewives = 2nd level Housewife. A proficient warehouse worker has at least four levels in "stacking boxes" and receives a +2 bonus to any crate-related proficiency check.
It's all absurd.
Slaves, workers, salesmen, etc. -ordinary people are just ordinary folks. If you wanna make them tougher, give them a few more HPs. It seems a bit excessive to load every character up with various class levels.
Since you're talking specifically about Kurn and Eldaarich -yeah, the Eldaarish would probably be more adapted to all of the silt that blows around them. And I imagine that the miners in the outlying islands would be tough, but I don't think that justifies giving them levels as fighters. And even though all of the Eldaarish learn martial arts, I think that just makes them commoners with martial arts proficiency, not fighters. As far as Kurn is concerned, I don't know what you have in mind for it's society, so it is difficult to tell what class levels you might have in mind. Perhaps every citizen undergoes mandatory military conscription. Even then, I would still stat out those folks as "commoners" with some basic weapons proficiency, rather than giving them fighter levels.
Like I said, artisans are supposed to be experts, not commoner NPCs. And basic weapons proficiency doesn't allow the longbow, which is Kurn's militia weapon (as it was in England for hundreds of years after Agincourt!!! Male English of 14+ were expected to know how to use a longbow, in case they needed to be pressed into war.
Ah -- I mentioned the Eloy? mixed-blood (ranging from human to half-elven) Nomadic herding tribes of the Trembling Plains? There's a dungeon magazine that describes the herders as folks who are really good at staying hidden when they don't want to be seen. So say about 1/3 of each clan are potential scouts with maxed hide, spot, and listen, as well as herding ability, and other hunter-gatherer skills.
Here's an amusing bit that I think illustrates their character:
Relations with the Aarakocra
Most Eloy tribes are in a formal state of war with the Silvaarak, and this represents a distinct improvement in relationships between their peoples. For King’s Ages, the Eloy treated the Aarakocra as they would any other predator, killing those they could when they approached the Eloy flocks. At House Azeth’s suggestion, Eloy clans have begun to wound and capture the Silvaarak when they can, and ransom them back to their tribes. House Azeth communicates with both parties and brokers the hostage negotiations.
While other groups might prefer a simple exchange of herder lifestock for Silvaarak goods, the Eloy and Silvaarak seem to have settled comfortably into their peculiar system. Silvaarak raid Eloy herds; Eloy attempt to capture the Silvaarak, to trade Silvaarak hostages for Silvaarak goods. The end result is the same.
Relations with the Bandit TribesThe Eloy despise the bandit tribes but have an uneasy unspoken arrangement with them. Like Tsalaxa and Azeth, the bandits and herders are both vulnerable to each other. If the herders provide information on bandit movement to outsiders, and the bandit tribe finds out, any bandit tribe has the ability to completely exterminate the herders. On the other hand, herders could do serious harm to a bandit tribe by stealing their hidden windcarts, or poisoning the bandits’ hidden water stashes.
Defense and Warcraft
Herders are hard to surprise in scrubland and very adept at hiding in it. They tend to graze in an area for 3-6 days, then pack their tents and move a day’s travel away. To be able to warn the other clan members if strangers are approaching tribal scouts hide in positions up to five miles from any encampment, communicating this information in a code of insect calls.
PCs traveling the roads would not know they were being watched. If people travel off the roads without permission, they might find their camp sabotaged. As a general rule herders avoid harassing travelers who enter Azeth’s Rest reasoning that if Azeth trusts someone that person is more likely to be trustworthy.
Herders distantly watch travelers until they find it convenient and safe to approach. Some travelers torture herders in order to find out the location of their wells. So herders who wish to meet with a group of travelers cleverly time their appearances until immediately after the travelers find water, to avoid offering the strangers that temptation. Even if they never decide to meet with the travelers, they watch carefully, and listen, and they convey information to other herder clans, and usually to House Azeth. Very few caravans or trade parties manage to arrive at Azeth’s Rest before the rumors of their travels.
The Eloy deploy their scouts particularly to alart the clan of slaver attacks, usually Red Guard patrols looking to for laborers for the South Guard farms. Slavers sometimes attack from two sides, and then capture the women and children running away, then use them as hostages to get to the stronger men and women of the clan. The scouts use emergency calls to alert the encampment, allowing as many as possible to escape.
An Eloy Herder encampment
An Eloy encampment is normally circular, with the tents and yurts of individual families arranged facing inwards, toward the open space traditionally left in the center. This space is left over for ritual and public functions, and also as a refuge for the tribe's most valuable animals should danger threaten outside.
The ring of homes, stiffened on the outside with bones and often surrounded by a ditch, fosse, or spikes, is pierced by two entrances. These are oriented by the wind - as the seasons change, and wind direction changes, the entrances are adjusted to match, guaranteeing that the prevailing wind can always flow easily through the center of camp.
The chieftain of each tribe usually has his tent pitched so that the entrance faces the direction of wind, so that the chief can bless the wind as it enters the camp.
Eloy herders typically travel following their herds, their possessions borne on travois constructed of mekillot bones, and drawn by mekillots and other draft animals. The Eloy unload their goods at the site of the camp, and tehn use the best-trained beasts to help set up their tents and yurts.
But surely you would not want me telling you how to run your project 1) on a public board, and 2) before I'd even read your project.
Agreed. Is it what I'm doing, though, telling you how to run your project? My comment stands for all such projects. It was rather general, kinda "Beware this may result in plenty of unhappy people." But what do I know. I'm commenting an unfinished project, before it even got to being reviewed by the Paper Nest, and picked apart by the Senate. I'll just shut up on those comments and reserve them for a time when they'll be requested.
That last one's the kicker. If you've already made up your mind about what percentage of commoners should be in Kurn and Eldaarich and in the Trembling plains
No I haven't made up my mind. My comment was based on a simple idea, it being that its unlikely that the common people of that region happen to have around 400% of the levels found in other DS regions, at least in the minds of many fans. For other fans those numbers will be perfect, in fact its all just opinion. This is the last you'll hear from me on it though.
before you've even read their situation, based on some preconceived norm then you could get God, Troy Denning, and my wife on your side, and still not sway me. :D That's a lot of persuasive authority, but authority alone doesn't have that much sway with me.
I have authority, now?! Who didn't inform me? Was it you? Whoever did this will pay dearly for their trickery!!
:D
Now I'm very interested in your logical response to Elonarc's article. Whether the rules that Sean Reynolds laid out (regular life threat = PC class) applies, or whether you go by another rule.
I agree with Reynolds on Commoners progressions, in that they level up (no pun intended) at some time in their life.
For experts, on the other hand, they have a greater potential to keep increasing in levels. Crafters, mainly. A gemcutter can be world-renowned, thus get tricky stuff to do (amazing DCs and such), thus have high CR challenges. Its conceivable for a 60 yo gemcutter to be a 20th level expert, in this optic.
Same for warriors and adepts, of course, although for them its even easier because they can actually adventure (i.e. they won't get killed doing so).
Aristocrats are a different matter, as their challenges will be more akin to those of the commoner in that they will waver over time yet stay pretty much constant throughout one's life. Think of a rich person, for example: Does nearly nothing but control the family fortune and keep financial sharks away. Rarer aristocrats, though, might be a hands-on ambassador to a conflicted warzone, or a mayor, or a king. Higher levels can thus be achieved.
[INDENT]One, either reduce the XP awarded by 50% again, as these adventuring classes don't get much out of not adventuring. Two, only allow people to acquire NPC classes with this method, so your retired Ftr4 captain of the guard is going to have to pick up warrior or expert levels if he wants to advance, simply because he's not getting the right kind of experience to advance as a fighter.[/INDENT]
I like this.
A spellcaster can advance in his own spellcasting class, though, even alone. That's arcane research. Same for manifesters. But fighters need a different kind of experience. At least Western fighters. I guess an Asian one can learn all of his knowledge from scrolls of wisdom, or so the Asian tales go.
Also, how you'd stat kids, generally, since Sean Reynolds seems to assume that a 12 year old is less than a commoner.
Kids can have class levels, even PC classes, but such things are rare. Nibenay has a 15 yo that's a 15th level character IIRC, so she started young. Not everyone can do that. Its not because a kid is a street rufiant that he's got a rogue level though.
On the other hand, Fagin's boys in Dickens' story probably have actual expert or rogue levels (although the sneak attack ability is innaproriate for them). Those were well trained, competent kids who could steal like the best of them. They had daily experience doing it, and a support system to keep doing it while minimizing the potential of being caught by authorities.
INibenay has a 15 yo that's a 15th level character IIRC, so she started young.
Siemhouk is in fact a frickin' templar 17/psion 5!
"Beware this may result in plenty of unhappy people."
Oh. Well that's an argument, then. Sorry I misunderstood you.
So what was it exactly that you meant would result in a lot of unhappy people? Cities with a minority population of commoners generally, or having an average field slave that's a warrior?
No I haven't made up my mind. ... For other fans those numbers will be perfect, in fact its all just opinion. This is the last you'll hear from me on it though.
Penn, I'd love to hear more from you. Just explain your reasoning, OK?
My comment was based on a simple idea, it being that its unlikely that the common people of that region happen to have around 400% of the levels found in other DS regions, at least in the minds of many fans.
Why is it unlikely? Would you not agree that Saragar would have fewer levels than, say Tyr? That the bandit states would have more than Tyr? Seems that we should be looking at the people's lives, rather than setting numbers and percentages (even a 400% limit) before we actually look at the facts on the ground.
I have authority, now?! Who didn't inform me? Was it you? Whoever did this will pay dearly for their trickery!!
You're a templar, you're the head of a bureau, and you're a person that I go to regularly for advice. That gives you a lot of persuasive authority with me, which is how a law student says that I respect and trust your opinion. But to me authority means that I read what you say very carefully; to persuade me you still need to back it up.
For example, if it turned out that the majority of fans on this board were terribly uncomfortable with there being no commoners among the bandits of Kell's Lot, or the merchants of Azeth's Rest they'd have to give me some pretty good reasons. Discomfort alone's not going to cut it.
I agree with Reynolds on Commoners progressions, in that they level up (no pun intended) at some time in their life.
For experts, on the other hand, they have a greater potential to keep increasing in levels. Crafters, mainly. A gemcutter can be world-renowned, thus get tricky stuff to do (amazing DCs and such), thus have high CR challenges. Its conceivable for a 60 yo gemcutter to be a 20th level expert, in this optic.
Good example!
Same for warriors and adepts, of course, although for them its even easier because they can actually adventure (i.e. they won't get killed doing so).
Whoa ... are we using Adepts in DS? I thought the consensus was to toss them. Has that changed?
Aristocrats are a different matter, as their challenges will be more akin to those of the commoner in that they will waver over time yet stay pretty much constant throughout one's life. Think of a rich person, for example: Does nearly nothing but control the family fortune and keep financial sharks away. Rarer aristocrats, though, might be a hands-on ambassador to a conflicted warzone, or a mayor, or a king. Higher levels can thus be achieved.
Makes sense. Kurnan nobles and Eldaarish "nobles" are a very peculiar situation; I'd really appreciate your input on them if you have the time, I'll send you the docs.
[INDENT]One, either reduce the XP awarded by 50% again, as these adventuring classes don't get much out of not adventuring. Two, only allow people to acquire NPC classes with this method, so your retired Ftr4 captain of the guard is going to have to pick up warrior or expert levels if he wants to advance, simply because he's not getting the right kind of experience to advance as a fighter.[/INDENT]
I like this.
A spellcaster can advance in his own spellcasting class, though, even alone. That's arcane research. Same for manifesters. But fighters need a different kind of experience.
Agreed! Do you agree with the principle of regular life-threat => PC class?
Kids can have class levels, even PC classes, but such things are rare. Nibenay has a 15 yo that's a 15th level character IIRC, so she started young. Not everyone can do that. Its not because a kid is a street rufiant that he's got a rogue level though.
I agree that street ruffian is not the distinguishing factor, but what is the distinguishing factor? As a storyteller, I need something other than the gods of statistics reaching down and saying, X% of a population have a PC class, or the fans get uncomfortable
On the other hand, Fagin's boys in Dickens' story probably have actual expert or rogue levels (although the sneak attack ability is innaproriate for them). Those were well trained, competent kids who could steal like the best of them. They had daily experience doing it, and a support system to keep doing it while minimizing the potential of being caught by authorities.
Makes sense. If you made them rogues and left them unarmed, that would effectively take away the sneak attack, would it not? But I guess I concede that expert might make more sense. I internally rebell against giving the expert class to a street kid ... but I guess you're right; that's what they are, essentially.
The Kurnan militia takes a year of every citizen's life when they first become a citizen, to train and drill them. After that it's about 75 days a year, in various scatters and lumps, doing guard duty, mock combats, marches, etc. Every Kurnan citizen has a Composite Longbow (as in post-Agincourt England) within reach, and all other than the wizards have suit of armor.
The Nobles constantly drill and race in chariots as they survey their lands; they also hunt, and are charged with training their slaves to defend their lands, which are called the Banding Slopes because the lands are divided in long bands, so that every noble's band of land borders on the frontier. That way every noble has a personal interest in defending Kurn's frontier.
Kurn's elite full-time military trains and tests the combat-readiness of the militia groups. Those joining Kurn's military are usually militia members who have seen combat, or those that excelled and advanced in their militia groups and the various combat games.
Here's my current adventurers section for LCotTP, referring to the most common people of the Trembling Plains, the nomadic Eloy. Do you see any jobs that I've associated with PC classes that I should have reserved for NPC classes? The threats these guys face are a little bit heavier than the typical elf tribe in the Tablelands.
(do you place commoners in a nomadic elf tribe?)
Adventurers
“Barbarians.” Brutes (as members of this class are more accurately known in the Trembling Plains just as they are in the rest of Athas) usually come from the cities, particularly from Eldaarich, where the most timid-seeming person might suddenly burst into a dangerous rage. Brutes often find employment among the merchant houses as mercenaries, or become bandits. They adapt well enough to herder life when they set their minds to it, but most herders become rangers rather than brutes.
Bards. Bards are common among the herding tribes, and even more common in Kurn. Bards that do not become patriarchs often achieve considerable respect within the herder clans.
Clerics. Clan patriarchs and matriarchs tend to be Air clerics, and failing that, they often pretend to be air clerics. Other types of cleric are rare in the Trembling Plains. The Kulag worship silt, but they have little contact with the herders.
Druids. Inexplicably, druids seem to keep a low profile in the Trembling Plains, possibly because the herders do such a good job guarding from defilers. The Sun Racers frequently visit Quarite, a farming village administered by druids, a few days north of Urik, and less than a day from the Trembling Plains. This is where the Sun Racers obtain Zarneeka, an herb extract that is very popular among Kurnan herbalists.
Fighters who seem honest can find employment with House Azeth or the Dedys Consortium, while those who are not honest, often find their way into a Bandit Tribe or into House Tsalaxa. Among the herders, single-classed fighters often lack crucial skills necessary to Herder life.
Gladiators are virtually unknown in the Trembling Plains, since the idea of slaves killing each other for entertainment has little appeal to herder or Kurnan society. The few gladiators in the Trembling Plains mostly originate from the Tablelands, but a few have escaped from Eldaarich.
Psions. Trained Tarandan psionics is rare. The closest real psionic training opportunities are Nexus to the north, and the House of the Mind in Draj. Nexus is administered by an agent of the Order, which is on very bad terms with Daskinor and on even worse terms with Oronis, since the death of Korgunard. Kurn has no psionics academy to speak of. (Hardly anyone knows that New Kurn exists, let alone that it has a psionics academy.) Eldaarich used to have a psionics academy, the Kuchina, but it closed when Daskinor began his purge of psionic people. Most psions in the Trembling Plains have recently escaped from Eldaarich. These tend to be shapers and kineticists, because seers and telepaths find it easier to conceal their powers, and the other disciplines are rare. House Tsalaxa and the Savak order like to employ shapers, and House Azeth, Kurn, and the Aarakocra often send kineticists along with their patrols, as artillery.
Psychic Warriors are rare among the Eloy, but this class is common among the thri-kreen and among the silvaarak. Most psychic warriors among the herders are former Eldaarish refugees. Many Baazrags in Kurn and Azeth’s Rest are psychic warriors.
Ranger is the most common class among the Eloy, since this is the ideal class for guarding herd animals while hiding in natural terrain and keeping one’s senses alert to intruders.
Rogues are common among the Eloy, because many Rogue skills apply to herding or raiding. Rogues often find employment with House Tsalaxa, join with the bandit states. Many Kurnan artisans take the rogue class, although most do not have the typical disposition of thieves or rogues of the Tablelands.
Templars do not originate from the Trembling Plains, but templars from Kurn, Eldaarich, and occasionally Draj and Raam make their way into the Plains. Daskinor’s Shtas order administrates South Guard’s fortress and slave camps, while Oronis’ Gray Heralds administrate the civil matters at Fort Stench and Conak’s Rock. Daskinor’s Red Guard order hunts for slaves and other prey in the Trembling Plains, Oronis’ Black and Green Brotherhoods patrol the roads and keep fortresses and outposts like Conak’s Rock and Fort Stench, while Draji templars make occasional forays into the Trembling Plains to capture Korinth. Kurnan and Eldaarish Double Templar infiltrate each others’ organizations, and travel south to infiltrate the organizations of other city-states.
Wilders are common partly because formal psionic training is rare. Kurnan human females seem especially prone to take the wilder class. Spies both Eldaarish and Kurnan, are often Wilders.
Wizards, particularly preservers are surprisingly common in the Trembling Plains. Herders and Kurnans practice preserver magic openly. Even the feared Eldaarish Red Guard has preservers among its ranks, but the Red Guards do not hire adults. House Tsalaxa, the Bandit States, Savak, and Shtas are the principal employers of defilers in this region. Herders, House Azeth, and Kurnans punish defiling with the death penalty, although they do offer mercy if they believe that the defiler can be reformed.
As such, a competent guard (Warrior or Fighter) can have an Expert level, choosing Spot, Listen, etc.
Fagin's boys can have one or more Expert levels, choosing skills like Spot, Search, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, etc, and thus be real good thieves and pick pockets.
Untrained poor people should all be Commoners, then those with a particular skill should have a skill-related class - thus Expert -, then martially-oriented people should have Warrior, and only those people who either received professional training or had exceptional experiences should actually have PC classes.
So a rogish lord, leader of a proeminent band of thieves and hired assassins, could actually be a Warrior/Expert. Only if this leader did something special or lived something special, or got special training, can he have a PC class or PrC. This increases the chances of his underlings having similar classes (maybe the leader spread the knowledge around).
In short I don't think that PC classes need to be distributed everywhere. If one wants to make NPCs tougher, then still give NPC classes but increase the levels, as long as the CR is what you want for the encounter. If the number of levels gets too high for the NPC to be realistic, then either increase the number of NPCs in the encounter or stack up advantages against the PCs. All those methods insure an increase in the CR of an encounter.
So what was it exactly that you meant would result in a lot of unhappy people? Cities with a minority population of commoners generally, or having an average field slave that's a warrior?
Unhappy = too many PC classes instead of NPC classes, too high levels, although I'm ready to accept high level as long as the classes are NPC and the NPC himself is of the older variety.
Why is it unlikely?
I don't see much of a difference between the Seven Cities and those of the Trembling Plains. Sure, some differences are bound to be present: More education and less do-or-die situations in Kurn, and more do-or-die cutthroat situations in Eldaarich.
What does this mean? Perhaps that there is more, say, Epxert levels in Kurn, and more Warrior too since they seem to get military training, and more Expert levels in Eldaarish too so as to gain all those skills necessary to have an edge in everyday life. But do the Eldaarish have more Rogue levels, for example? Dunno
You're a templar, you're the head of a bureau
Actually there's no head AFAIK. Its run equally by me, Meth, and Nels.
Whoa ... are we using Adepts in DS? I thought the consensus was to toss them. Has that changed?
Reynold's analysis was in the generic D&D context, so my answer went along those lines too. Except for Adept everything else matches DS though. Indeed the consensus is to drop the Adept.
Do you agree with the principle of regular life-threat => PC class?
A threat to life, regularly experienced and survived, can breed a PC class only if the context is there. A farmer surviving yearly raiders will become a Warrior, while a small village's militia man intentionally sent out on punitive actions against raiders might develop Fighter levels. I think the difference is about action: Most NPCs live normal lives, with no action. They may endure action from time to time (action being thrust upon them), but do not actively seek it. Characters that seek out action are those that develop, IMO, PC classes.
So most NPCs, by their very definition of being citizens and thus live mundane lives, will have NPC classes. As for levels...that's another matter. I guess extremely stressful or extremely supportive/encouraging environments (Eldaarich and Kurn) can breath more levels into their NPCs.
(I realise i'm going against my "400%" earlier statement, but a guy is entitled to change his opinion. So yeah those two cities could have more levels, just not that much more PC classes though.)
Do you see any jobs that I've associated with PC classes that I should have reserved for NPC classes? The threats these guys face are a little bit heavier than the typical elf tribe in the Tablelands.
(do you place commoners in a nomadic elf tribe?)
Give some time to read, those long winded sessions are long to write! ;)
(do you place commoners in a nomadic elf tribe?)
No. Nomadic elven tribes are extreme examples of darwinism at its best: Run or die. The weak, injured, the old, all are left behind. Generations of this results in a breeding of superior people.
I'd say all basic tribe members are not Commoners but probably Warriors, a few with additional Expert levels. The rest have PC classes.
Do you see any jobs that I've associated with PC classes that I should have reserved for NPC classes? The threats these guys face are a little bit heavier than the typical elf tribe in the Tablelands.
The main association for the Bard is as a poisoner, assassin, music player, thief, general roguish individual barely respected by the law. Anything else seems innapropriate to me. Doing such a thing would require changing the very thing that makes Bards special in DS.
The correct spelling for the druid village of "Quarite" is Quraite.
The Fighter entry applies as well to Warriors IMO.
The Ranger entry would fit well characters that have taken levels in both Warrior and Expert, specializing in those skills a herder might need. Casting divine spells, having a special bonded animal, and being able to slaughter a special type of beast very well seems innapropriate for a herder whose job is to herd all day long.
Same with Rogues, which can be partly replaced by Warrior/Expert with appropriate skill choices.
Btw, did you know I came up (with help from others) with an NPC manifester class? I never did get to know if athas.org people liked it or wanted it. In case you're wondering, its very well made: There should be no errors and it should be perfectly in par with the power level of other NPC classes.
Give some time to read, those long winded sessions are long to write! ;)
Absolutely! Take your time! We're rushing on LC, but the Kurn and Eldaarich information doesn't need to be out there for some time. And I don't even need the Eloy stuff today or tomorrow.
We forget this simple thruth: The Expert class is not about being a learned sage, no matter what the fluff says. Its not centered on a Knowledge skill. Being an Expert is choosing up to 10 skills (even Str-, Dex-, and Con-based skills) among all the skills in the PHB, and gaining insane amounts of skill points.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the NPCs are gap fillers, unlike the PC classes (which the D&D designers call archetypes). Is that correct? If so, that makes sense.
As such, a competent guard (Warrior or Fighter) can have an Expert level, choosing Spot, Listen, etc.
Fagin's boys can have one or more Expert levels, choosing skills like Spot, Search, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, etc, and thus be real good thieves and pick pockets.
Excellent point.
Untrained poor people should all be Commoners, then those with a particular skill should have a skill-related class - thus Expert -, then martially-oriented people should have Warrior, and only those people who either received professional training or had exceptional experiences should actually have PC classes.
Ah. That's a more liberal standard than I expected. I thought you were going to say that only those who received professional training *and* had exceptional experiences should have PC classes.
(I realize also that you're speaking in general, and won't nag you about justifying Siemhouk, since there will always be prodigies that the XP system can't account for ... this seems even more likely in Psionics, but such characters would be very rare, right?)
So a rogish lord, leader of a proeminent band of thieves and hired assassins, could actually be a Warrior/Expert. Only if this leader did something special or lived something special, or got special training, can he have a PC class or PrC.
Ah. So you don't think that killing people for a living, would be an exceptional experience? I guess that pushes us to the question of what is special ...
This increases the chances of his underlings having similar classes (maybe the leader spread the knowledge around).
Agreed!
In short I don't think that PC classes need to be distributed everywhere. If one wants to make NPCs tougher, then still give NPC classes but increase the levels, as long as the CR is what you want for the encounter.
My goal as a storyteller here is believability. I look at the challenges that the Eloy face, the enemies they have, and the fact that they are still alive after their ancestors ran from Kurn and Eldaarich to escape the levies 2000 years ago, and then ask, what sort of skills and abilities do they need to deal with these challenges. not just herding, but keeping a distant ring of hidden scouts, surviving in a land that varies by season more than any other place described so far in Athas, the bandits, the Eldaarish slavers, etc. But after talking to you, I'll see if I can reconceive more of them as experts. I really can't see them as commoners, though.
If the number of levels gets too high for the NPC to be realistic, then either increase the number of NPCs in the encounter or stack up advantages against the PCs. All those methods insure an increase in the CR of an encounter.
I should know this, but I donlt. :embarrass If NCS are experts instead of rogues, does that reduce the encounter CR?
Unhappy = too many PC classes instead of NPC classes, too high levels, although I'm ready to accept high level as long as the classes are NPC and the NPC himself is of the older variety.
Older variety?
I don't see much of a difference between the Seven Cities and those of the Trembling Plains.
?? I haven't even begun to describe Eldaarich to you; I'm not sure how you'd make that call ...
Sure, some differences are bound to be present: More education and less do-or-die situations in Kurn
You're right that there's more education in Kurn (!!!) but Kurnans face just as many do or die situations as the seven cities, with the bandit states, repelling a yearly Trin migration, etc. This is *not* New Kurn!! The difference is that they face the challenges as part of their militia duty, in full armor and armed to the teeth, rather than risking getting killed in a robbery. OTOH, there is considerable theft in Kurn, perhaps more than in the 7 cities, but very little violent crime, and foreigners are limited to a walled district less than 1/6 of the city.
more do-or-die cutthroat situations in Eldaarich.
Absolutely. And they have good training too, with the martial arts cults, but no access to armor or weapons.
What does this mean? Perhaps that there is more, say, Epxert levels in Kurn, and more Warrior too since they seem to get military training, and more Expert levels in Eldaarish too so as to gain all those skills necessary to have an edge in everyday life. But do the Eldaarish have more Rogue levels, for example? Dunno
That makes sense.
Actually there's no head AFAIK. Its run equally by me, Meth, and Nels.
I meant the art bureau.
A threat to life, regularly experienced and survived, can breed a PC class only if the context is there. A farmer surviving yearly raiders will become a Warrior, while a small village's militia man intentionally sent out on punitive actions against raiders might develop Fighter levels.
Great! This is very useful. What about an artisan who receives about a year of professional training, returns to his craft, but spends some time every month drilling and training, and every year, is armed as part of a defensive line to prevent rampaging Thri-Trin from breaking in through Kurnlands' outer perimeter?
I think the difference is about action: Most NPCs live normal lives, with no action. They may endure action from time to time (action being thrust upon them), but do not actively seek it. Characters that seek out action are those that develop, IMO, PC classes.
OK, now that's a what we call a bright-line rule, easy to identify and use! Thank you!
But how do you reconcile that with making a hit man a type of expert, above?
So most NPCs, by their very definition of being citizens and thus live mundane lives, will have NPC classes. As for levels...that's another matter. I guess extremely stressful or extremely supportive/encouraging environments (Eldaarich and Kurn) can breath more levels into their NPCs.
(I realise i'm going against my "400%" earlier statement, but a guy is entitled to change his opinion. )
That makes two of us! I've changed my mind considerably since starting this thread, and it's been very helpful.
So yeah those two cities could have more levels, just not that much more PC classes though.
I'm not sure I could follow that in Eldaarich, even if I said that everyone who is not in one of the seven templar orders is an NPC class ... it's a totalitarian regime, and there are a *lot* more folks working for the state.
There are nearly 1500 adult Red Guards alone (look at all the area they have to cover, including extorting goods from the craft slave villages. Mostly rangers, but many templars & wizards too)
The Kulag fleet, who sail the sea of silt -- that's definitely going deliberately in harm's way. Their whole demeanor and culture ... well, they look and feel like pirates.
The Shtas -- guard the city walls and drive the slaves at South Guard. Some could be warriors, I guess. But they also face the Trin rampages every year at South Guard, and other threats.
The Haleban ... some bureaucrats that could be experts, or maybe commoners, I suppose. But the Haleban cult leaders ... some are Thrallherds, others martial arts experts, others bard-entertainers.
The Takrits -- these ones guard Daskinor personally, and are the strongest of all the groups, stronger even than the Red Guards. Mostly defilers and templars.
The Savak are the secret police. In charge of spying outside of the dim lands as well as knowing everything that goes on inside Eldaarich.
Finally, the Cheka are the interrogators. The smallest and weakest of the Eldaarish civil orders, they are strangely the most popular, in spite of the fact that they torture people for a living. Might be experts, I suppose, since Psionics are banned ... although every order secretly keeps some psions who conceal their abilities.
I'll give more info on Eldaarich later, including a list of typical encounters that I need to type in. :D Pretty dark and mindblowing.
"In the year of Wind's Reverence of the 193rd King's Age, King Daskinor mercifully increased the daily grain ration by half a handful. Because of his mercy and foresight, urban cannibalism and public suicide dropped by one fifth."
-"Facts that every school child must know, or else," the Haleban teacher's manual.
Btw, did you know I came up (with help from others) with an NPC manifester class? I never did get to know if athas.org people liked it or wanted it. In case you're wondering, its very well made: There should be no errors and it should be perfectly in par with the power level of other NPC classes.
I didn't know that, and at first glance I'm impressed. I take it you don't know that I strongly recommended that Athas.org create NPC manifesting class to back when the first 3e PsiHB first came out. The whole reason that I wanted to make Wilders so common as to replace a good % of commoners, was to fill in this gap.
I *don't* think we want anything like an Adept in Athas, because defiling and preserving is a big deal, and should be a PC class since you take your life in your hands when you start dabbling in that stuff in most cities (and in Kurn, you get the good training which Adepts lack). But the Wilder just sorts of learns on her own. Your manifester NPC fills the gap better, IMO. I'll email you soon about it when i gather thoughts.
-brax
Ah. So you don't think that killing people for a living, would be an exceptional experience? I guess that pushes us to the question of what is special ...
There are always small groups of criminals, providing the criminal services that society requires. As one gets higher in society, these services become more and more dangerous for those performing them, hence the increased price tag.
For the smallest services - breaking of legs, dissapearance of a small-time crook, or just murder of a guy who didn't pay his protection money - dealing with Commoners, you use the small criminal band I described. For those services you need not have a PC class.
For the assassin guild hired to kill an influential merchant lord, you better have Rogues, Assassins, and maybe even Psychic Warriors and the like.
For a thieving guild payed to steal the fist-sized sacred gem of a cult of sacrificial fanatics, better have Rogues.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the NPCs are gap fillers, unlike the PC classes (which the D&D designers call archetypes). Is that correct? If so, that makes sense.
That's a good way of seeing it. Warriors represent and can replace Fighters and Barbarians, Warrior/Experts can replace Rangers, and Experts can replace Rogues for the purpose of infiltration and thieving (not assassination though).
You can create very good characters with those classes.
(Plus, Expert is the one NPC class listed - and I agree - as worth taking by a PC. Its the perfect PC filler class. Skill ranks are more powerful than we imagine.)
I realize also that you're speaking in general, and won't nag you about justifying Siemhouk, since there will always be prodigies that the XP system can't account for ... this seems even more likely in Psionics, but such characters would be very rare, right?
I agree. Plus, in DK there's the story of a youth (maybe 10-13 yo) that develops a super-Will and controls the people of his village at will, until an epic psion comes along and fries his brain. So there's precedent for (rare) kids with more punch than most 40 yo adults.
My goal as a storyteller here is believability. I look at the challenges that the Eloy face, the enemies they have, and the fact that they are still alive after their ancestors ran from Kurn and Eldaarich to escape the levies 2000 years ago, and then ask, what sort of skills and abilities do they need to deal with these challenges. not just herding, but keeping a distant ring of hidden scouts, surviving in a land that varies by season more than any other place described so far in Athas, the bandits, the Eldaarish slavers, etc. But after talking to you, I'll see if I can reconceive more of them as experts. I really can't see them as commoners, though.
Its cool. Now that you described them a bit more I see a ressemblence with the fremen: A simple people, doing simple things, yet trained in more things than what they really need, so that when some unforseen event occurs they can act. This I can buy.
Intensive Eloy training could result in no Commoners but only Experts and Warriors (not counting their leaders, lieutenants, priests, etc) and combinations thereof.
I should know this, but I donlt. If NCS are experts instead of rogues, does that reduce the encounter CR?
I'm terrible with CRs
What I can say is that NPC classes count as -1 for their CR, so a human Expert 3 is CR 2.
Its on page 37 of DMG, Challenge Ratings for NPCs.
When stacking the dices in favor of NPCs in an encounter and wanting to know if I'm overshooting with the encounter level, relative to my players' PCs, I reference Table 4-4: Improved Monster CR Increase, on page 294 of MM, and all of Chapter 3 of TotDL.
It works like this: You pick whatever advantage you've given the NPC or NPCs and look for it or its equivalent in either tables, then add the CR. Adding magic items to them is the same, just find whatever you intend to use the item for on the tables, then add CR.
Older variety?
Er, let's imagine a...group of farmers that's in fact a pretty competent bunch of hitmen, secretly in league and dealing with rabble when it comes near their farms. This cheesy scenario is more belivable if those part of this group are all the 40 yo farmers. Farmers today, militia man or even soldiers in the past. But the 20 yo farmers as competent strongmen? Nha.
I haven't even begun to describe Eldaarich to you; I'm not sure how you'd make that call ...
My comment is a loose one, purely based on what the Wanderer's Chronicles describes.
But how do you reconcile that with making a hit man a type of expert, above?
I said that? I'm rereading but can't find it. Hitman = Warrior or Barbarian or Fighter. Thief = Expert or Rogue. Assassin = Warrior/Expert or Rogue or Assassin. Etc.
I'm not sure I could follow that in Eldaarich, even if I said that everyone who is not in one of the seven templar orders is an NPC class ... it's a totalitarian regime, and there are a *lot* more folks working for the state.
Players and DMs associate being a Fighter or Warrior with sword and armor, while it can be unarmed combat.
Unarmed combat is commonly accepted by most people who watch movies as being one combat skill that heroes can have and that won't make them soldiers or the like.
Since you say Eldaarich is full of martial arts cults...then I can believe many citizens have actual Fighter levels if their feats are in unarmed combat and not into weapons.
I don't know if it was true in life at some point in time, but in some chinese movies about the past you have whole communities of farmers and crafters and merchants that all know martial arts and can fight against invaders.
This is in all Westerners' psyches.
I wouldn't be surprised if a good portion of Eldaarich basic citizenry were unarmed combat-Fighters.
In fact I smell a PrC in the air. Jon once did this Pit Fighter (unarmed gladiator) PrC, so maybe we could adapt it or invent something in the line of it, and which could be given to people. Just an idea.
Brax, your information about the Eloy really helps flesh out some of the dilemna's your are wrangling with. From your description, I think that they could have some expert levels concerning stealth, evasion, or expert knowledge about their surroundings.
Penn's point about active / inactive responses to the environment seem to be particularly relavent here. Even though they are assailed by these obstacles every day, simply reacting the these things wouldn't necessarily warrant the addition of PC levels (unless it was constant stimuli -like a slave forced to become a gladiator against his / her will). An Eloy herder who actively goes out to hunt down threats to the tribe would probably have PC levels. An Eloy herder who avoided dangers, fought off the occassional wild threat, and lived off the land probably wouldn't have PC levels.
I think that we should have a D&D version of Occam's Razor: If an NPC's activities can be explained WITHOUT giving them PC classes, then they should have NPC levels only. The addition of PC classes adds a magnitude of complexity with all of the proficiencies, skills, and options available. For example, if the rules don't allow for Kurnian NPC's to be proficient with the longbow, do we make them all into Fighters and stat out all these other skills and proficiencies, or do we fudge the rules a bit and keep them simple as NPC's?
This doesn't mean that you can't have a member (maybe a leader) of the Kurnian militia with PC levels who went out with a unit of "Kreen hunters" in order to safeguard the city. Or maybe the militia would have more "elite units" comprised of people with PC levels. And of course, regular military and skilled troops would all have PC levels.
I think that the same could be done with the Eloy. The regulars are all experts in their forte's (concealment, seasonal knowledge, local knowledge, etc.), but they are all commoners. Exceptional individual's would have PC levels: the Tribesman who actually maintains the ring of informants might have PC levels, the tribesman who specialized in capturing the Aarakocra would have PC levels, and the tribes scouts would have Ranger levels as well. If you want to make the Eloy "commoners" a little bit tougher, then you could give them more hit points (bending the rules a little) instead of giving them all PC levels (sticking to the rules.)
~Unrelated to the topic of "commoners and levels," your idea about the Eloy is very intriguing. Were the Eloy created by a group of mixed Elvish and Human runaways, or were they all Half-Elf to begin with? Is their culture a mixture of Elven and Human, or is it just "human" (kinda the default culture in Athas) now? I think that it would be particularly intriguing to have a completely Elven tribal culture in a group of Half-Elves. Does the tribe welcome both Human and Elven immigrants or is it open only to Half-Elves? Or is it not open to outsiders at all? If it is not open to outsiders at all, this brings up an interesting (but never explored) possibility: in-breeding. Supposedly hybrids are stronger because of their mixed gene pools, but what happens when your hybrid population becomes inbred? I think that it is an intriguing situation. I think that this would also create an interesting dynamic in regards to various racial modifiers: perhaps there would be lots of variation in racial abilities according to how much Elven / Human ancestry an individual has.
Not to turn this into "Dungeons & Eugenics," but it is an interesting topic to consider.
itf
Unarmed combat is commonly accepted by most people who watch movies as being one combat skill that heroes can have and that won't make them soldiers or the like.
I've actually developed a number of martial arts feats for Eldaarich; I think they'll be in the upcoming update to Wisdom of the Drylanders.
Since you say Eldaarich is full of martial arts cults...then I can believe many citizens have actual Fighter levels if their feats are in unarmed combat and not into weapons.
Cool! That's what I thought originally, but some folks argued to me that it made no sense that those people would be fighters when they'd never worn armor. They kind of need the feats to learn the martial arts, though.
I don't know if it was true in life at some point in time, but in some chinese movies about the past you have whole communities of farmers and crafters and merchants that all know martial arts and can fight against invaders.
It was true, at least in Okinawa. Eldaarich has the same confluence of factors as Okinawa: common people are prohibited having weapons, common violent crime, and an absentee totalitarian government that doesn't do much to stop violent crime.
(Prohibition on having weapons is not in the WC, but I inferred that from the part that says Daskinor does not trust the people and affords them no rights. I thought, well, the other SKs don't give many rights either. So I asked myself what rights the other SKs did give their people, that Daskinor could take away. Weapons and Armor came to mind.
Lots of good stuff on this thread.
Brax, your information about the Eloy really helps flesh out some of the dilemna's your are wrangling with. From your description, I think that they could have some expert levels concerning stealth, evasion, or expert knowledge about their surroundings.
Penn's point about active / inactive responses to the environment seem to be particularly relavent here. Even though they are assailed by these obstacles every day, simply reacting the these things wouldn't necessarily warrant the addition of PC levels (unless it was constant stimuli -like a slave forced to become a gladiator against his / her will). An Eloy herder who actively goes out to hunt down threats to the tribe would probably have PC levels. An Eloy herder who avoided dangers, fought off the occassional wild threat, and lived off the land probably wouldn't have PC levels.
Mostly the Eloy try to avoid dangers. They run from Red Guards; and give the bandits whatever they want. They also refuse to ever own anything made of silver or gold, so that the Bandits don't have cause to rob them. They do team up to kill things like Dune Reapers that come into their territory, but mostly the Eloy clans go to war with each other. Pretty low-grade war, involving cattle theft, and taking members of the other tribe hostage in exchange for (what else) cattle. There are some feuds that involve retaliatory killings, and shows of force against other clans (whether Eloy or Tarek) over wells and other bits of territory.
An Eloy clan will often sell off 3/4 of its herd in Kurn in exchange for a youngling Cistern Fiend to plant in one of their wells. The Kurnan Welldiggers' clave (despite their commonplace name) does not merely dig wells, but raises Cistern Fiends, training each Cistern Fiend to not attack so long it sees a specific standard is in sight. Naturally, the pole standards are the clan's most prized possessions. If you're really really mad at another clan, you go and kill their cistern fiend.
The final bit of aggressive behavior you'll see in the Eloy is their treatment of defilers.
If you look at the map, you'll notice that the scrubland that I call the "Trembling Plains," extends from Kurn all the way down to just north of Fort Ral, but then curves North-West all the way to the Ringing Mountains!. That's a lot of scrubland. There's no other stretch of green land that big East of the Ringing Mountains. Something is keeping it green. The Eloy live off the herds, and the herds survive because it's scrubland. They *really* do not like defilers, and they do know the difference between defiler and preserver. They are, after all, on fair terms with Kurn and on very good terms with House Azeth.
I think that we should have a D&D version of Occam's Razor: If an NPC's activities can be explained WITHOUT giving them PC classes, then they should have NPC levels only.
Generally, I agree, particularly for large groups of NPCs. But when a specific NPC falls square into a PC archetype (like the infamous city "brute squad" :D, or the village bard, or a wilderness warrior who is a brilliant tracker and fights 2-handed), isn't that really what the PC classes are for?
The addition of PC classes adds a magnitude of complexity with all of the proficiencies, skills, and options available. For example, if the rules don't allow for Kurnian NPC's to be proficient with the longbow, do we make them all into Fighters and stat out all these other skills and proficiencies, or do we fudge the rules a bit and keep them simple as NPC's?
I developed a feat called Kurnan Citizen that gives them longbow proficiency, plus some Craft skill benefit, so I could keep most of them experts. How does that sound?
This doesn't mean that you can't have a member (maybe a leader) of the Kurnian militia with PC levels who went out with a unit of "Kreen hunters" in order to safeguard the city. Or maybe the militia would have more "elite units" comprised of people with PC levels. And of course, regular military and skilled troops would all have PC levels.
Makes sense.
I think that the same could be done with the Eloy. The regulars are all experts in their forte's (concealment, seasonal knowledge, local knowledge, etc.), but they are all commoners. Exceptional individual's would have PC levels: the Tribesman who actually maintains the ring of informants might have PC levels, the tribesman who specialized in capturing the Aarakocra would have PC levels, and the tribes scouts would have Ranger levels as well. If you want to make the Eloy "commoners" a little bit tougher, then you could give them more hit points (bending the rules a little) instead of giving them all PC levels (sticking to the rules.)
I *really* can't see any commoners among the Eloy, any more than I'd see commoners in a nomadic elf tribe.
~Unrelated to the topic of "commoners and levels," your idea about the Eloy is very intriguing. Were the Eloy created by a group of mixed Elvish and Human runaways, or were they all Half-Elf to begin with?
These were all human runaways from the Eldaarish and Kurnan levies to feed the Dragon 2000 years ago. They have never completely forgiven Oronis for that, and they still believe that some day the Dragon will come back for them. (They stubbornly refuse to believe "that rediculous drylander superstition" that the Dragon is dead).
Over the years of herding in the Trembling Plains, they have been in constant contact, trade, war, etc. with various Elven tribes. Elves and humans interbreed wherever they make contact, and the rigors of the Trembling Plains actually gave those with elven blood something of an advantage. Many of them feel the urge to run with the elves, and those that have enough elven blood to qualify as full elves, eventually follow that impulse and join an elven tribe. Some Eloy look human (and are game-wise human) others are half-elven. They refer to the ones that have more elvish physical traits as "elfish."
Is their culture a mixture of Elven and Human, or is it just "human" (kinda the default culture in Athas) now?
They can't run, but since many of them have the genetic desire to run, they emulate many aspects of Elven culture. One major exception is that they are faithfully monogamous. That's the one thing that the Eloy hate about elven culture -- basically that they left them behind. One elven poet referred to them as the "Tumbleweed people." The elves are like the wind, and the Eloy is like the tumbleweed. It tries to keep up with the wind, and eventually gets left behind.
I think that it would be particularly intriguing to have a completely Elven tribal culture in a group of Half-Elves. Does the tribe welcome both Human and Elven immigrants or is it open only to Half-Elves?
They consider the term "half-elf" an insult. Like many elf tribes, they accept new members of the tribe as slaves first, and they even screen out most of the people who want to be their slaves. (mostly the starving Eldaarish refugees that escape from the Dim Lands. Unless they really need help or get a good feeling about a newcomer, Eloy usually give refugees a day of food and water in exchange for a promise to leave and never return to the clan's territory). But they have some exceptions to this policy: 1. If they believe that an elf sincerely wants to be part of their clan (i.e. passes an elven test of trust), then they accept an elf without a slavery period. 2. Anyone who marries into the clan, with the clan patriarch's permission, is a full member of the clan. There are a few other minor differences, but mostly that's it. You can't steal from a guest or from a host, but raiding other people's cattle is perfectly respectable business so long as no one gets hurt: you're helping people to stay on their guard (to some extent, the Kurnans suscribe to that philosoph as well, since they descend from pirates before Keltis recruited them into his cleansing war army.)
Or is it not open to outsiders at all? If it is not open to outsiders at all, this brings up an interesting (but never explored) possibility: in-breeding.
Inbreeding is a serious a problem in Kurn, but not with the Eloy :D They've taken in Eldaarish refugees and escaped Tablelands slaves for generations, and periodic liasons and unhappy marriages with elves help keep new genes coming in.
Supposedly hybrids are stronger because of their mixed gene pools, but what happens when your hybrid population becomes inbred? I think that it is an intriguing situation. I think that this would also create an interesting dynamic in regards to various racial modifiers: perhaps there would be lots of variation in racial abilities according to how much Elven / Human ancestry an individual has.
Oh -- that *is* a factor. I've worked on this problem, and think that feats is the best way to handle it. So far I only have one "Elfish Eloy" feat that creates some variation:
“Elfish” Eloy [Background]
You were raised by herders who value your mixed heritage
Prerequisites: Trembling Plains, human with some elvish ancestry OR half-elf
Benefits: Elven weather immunity, +1 to spot and listen (stacks with half-elven racial bonus)
Normal: Ordinarilly, only full-blooded elves enjoy weather immunity. Note that an Eloy who is technically "human" as well as one that is technically an "elf" can take this feat.
I'd like to come up with others, but didn't want to create anything unbalanced.
I like this discussion, though I probably am a little bit more liberal with PC classes than Alexis. I see no big problem with low-level PC classes for NPCs, I just think that higher-level PC classes are very rare. Often I imagine a NPC with an ability that is best reflected by one or two levels of a PC class. So I design "ordinary" NPCs that are bard 1/expert 4 or barbarian 1/warrior 5. NPCs are much more believable if one uses the whole range of levels a NPC class offers (instead of the aforementioned "The commoner class has only one level"). If I think the NPC misses something I imagined it should have, I might add a level or two of a PC class.
I have no qualms to make milita patrols fighting tryn every year all fighters or have a lot of rangers in a nomad tribe. Perhaps I just don't differentiate as much as you do between PC- and NPC-classes.
That being said, if there was the need for a huge lot of NPCs to have some abilities that NPC classes do not provide, but also doesn't exactly warrant PC classes, I would go with a feat:
Eloy [Regional]
Special: You may only take this feat at 1st level.
Ability: ~blah
The [Regional] and the 1st level restriction combined allows for feats that most players will call "overpowered! you destroyed athas! i will quit playing Dark Sun! 2nd edition was better anyway!".
The one thing I will never ever do is "fudge with the rules" so I can forcibly stick to a NPC class and make it (only mildly) believable. Do some people see PC classes as such a horror for non-adventurers that they rather not adhere to the rules than to allow the mighty PC classes for these guys that the DM controls?
The main association for the Bard is as a poisoner, assassin, music player, thief, general roguish individual barely respected by the law. Anything else seems innapropriate to me. Doing such a thing would require changing the very thing that makes Bards special in DS.
DS3.5 rules:
Good bards are often entertainers or lorekeepers, putting their talents to benevolent use, sometimes diagnosing poisonings and selling the proper antidotes.
Kurn turns a lot of things upside down. Slavery, for example.
Iotef of the Healer's clave (Bard 7) is married to a dwarven woman and has six children. Iotef invented a drug named mulbirth, that makes it easier for a woman to survive giving birth to a mul.
Given the price of mul slaves in the Tablelands, House Tsalaxa is very interested in obtaining large quantities of this drug, or better yet, finding out its components.
trade secrets are what give bards an edge on the uninitiated. Bards would rather die than reveal these secrets. Meeting a bard can be an uneasy encounter, since one never knows how the bard has chosen to devote his multiple talents.
Iotef knows how House Tsalaxa would use his drug, and refuses to sell to them or in large quantities. His own children are muls, and he knows what Tsalaxa would do with mulbirth: create whole mulbirthing stables.
Iotef fits the rare Dark Sun archetype of a good bard. He gathers some of his healing ingredients in the Rohorind forest which is at least as deadly to humans as the Forest Ridge. He's the center of several adventures in LC and in CSoK. He's a poisoner and a healer, like the priest in Romeo and Juliet, who recognizes that every poison has a medicinal use and every medicine can be used as a poison.
Another aspect of Kurn I forgot to mention is that they have no gladiator blood sports, but have very intense competitive (semi-violent) sports that all the citizens indulge in, e.g. stilt-boxing, scorpion wives. Even the children's sports involve some semi-martial skills, such as Running Bird or the Wasp relays.
BTW, did you see my latest email?
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the NPCs are gap fillers, unlike the PC classes (which the D&D designers call archetypes). Is that correct? If so, that makes sense.
That's a good way to put it.
I should know this, but I donlt. :embarrass If NCS are experts instead of rogues, does that reduce the encounter CR?
Technically, no, since a CR is based, at minimum, on the number of HD being faced. I'd reduce rewards though, as a DM call... :| CR isn't exactly a scientific system.
Great! This is very useful. What about an artisan who receives about a year of professional training, returns to his craft, but spends some time every month drilling and training, and every year, is armed as part of a defensive line to prevent rampaging Thri-Trin from breaking in through Kurnlands' outer
perimeter?
Primarily Expert, with a level or two of Warrior or Fighter, depending on the training recieved. You're really, really well trained might get a level of fighter, those who are just meant to do stand on the line a warriors.
warriors == grunts
fighters == special forces
So yeah those two cities could have more levels, just not that much more PC classes though.
Exactly -- or at least, levels that go higher than most of the other cities.
I *really* can't see any commoners among the Eloy, any more than I'd see commoners in a nomadic elf tribe.
That's okay. Commoner is meant for slaves (or, in your standard medevil setting, serfs) and farmers. Maybe some herders, near the cities, but not the desert ...
I'd imagine that we're reallying dealing with a lot of Experts -- Survival is a skill just like any others, so you can have Survivalist Experts... for those that aren't warriors
Primarily Expert, with a level or two of Warrior or Fighter, depending on the training recieved. You're really, really well trained might get a level of fighter, those who are just meant to do stand on the line a warriors.
warriors == grunts
fighters == special forces
Those are two different standards, unless I misunderstand what you mean by "those who are just meant to do stand on the line a warriors."
Special forces ... I'd be *really* hard pressed to think of any first level character as special forces. At least by the standards of the US, the UK, Israel, even Mexico; we're talking about people who have been in for years, often veteran *before* joining the SF.
Originally Posted by brax
So yeah those two cities could have more levels, just not that much more PC classes though.
Nope -- that was Penn that said that. I still don't buy this PC class % population thing, and Penn has backed away from that too. You don't put people where they could not possibly function or survive, regardless of what the gods of population tatistics say. That's not just bad storytelling; it's compulsive symmetry.
Saragar's going to have fewer people in the level 12-20 range, fewer PC classes.
OTOH, I can't see the Eloy having more than 1 or 2 in that class range, since it's a remarkably boring life. In fact the only person I have among the eloy who is 12th level (none higher) is a crippled elf who stays with his Eloy family because he can't run away. Oh, I take that back -- there's is a powerful Eldaarish refugee and a bandit hiding among them as well.
Exactly -- or at least, levels that go higher than most of the other cities.
I don't think that's a problem, but then I've never seen a supp that made those things clear for Dark Sun.
Nanda Shatri: W20/Psi5
Thagya Phon Human Male Preserver 17th-Level
And then Seimhouk, mentioned above.
OK, let's look at Tyr. City-State of Tyr lists 7 characters of 16th level or higher, including 1 epic level, not including Kalak. I doubt it's comprehensive, but no city supp should be comprehensive.
- Tithian Human Male Templar 17th-Level
- Matthias Morthen; Human Male Preserver 18th-Level
- Thanik Arkos: 19th/7th-level dual-classed Male Human Psionicist/Defiler, Lawful Evil (converts to 21st level character in 3e)
- Sycia Strimmen: 16th-level Female Human Psionicist, Neutral Good
- Fyrian Wynder 13th/l5th-level Male Half-Elf Psionicist/Bard Neutral (converts to 19th level character in 3e)
- Agis of Asticles: 16th-level Human Male Psionicist, Lawful Neutral
- Timor: 12th/13th-level dual-classed Human Male Templar/Defiler, Lawful Evil (converts to 17th level character)
When it comes to *epic* level characters and high level characters, I'm perfectly happy to look at the stats, because it's not a question of mass survival any more; you can't really predict what high level characters will be in an area by looking at it.
OTOH, it would be pretty bizarre if we'd detailed more prestige classes than there are actual people who are high enough level to take a prestige class ;)
OK, please break it down for me. When you say "levels that go higher than most of the other cities," what do you have in mind? I don't really want to fill up the School of spies with commoners and experts and 1st-3rd level PC classes. OTOH, I'm not seeing a lot of epic characters, either.
Seems like population dynamics *have* to be different than what's in the DMG, otherwise I'm not sure how you'd explain *The Order.* That's an awful lot of epic level characters for such a sparsely populated area as the Tablelands, hinterlands, and trembling plains, Saragar, etc. But I don't remember any epic fighters or rangers in Dark Sun.
I'm not seeing Kurn and Eldaarich producing much in the way of Epic folks. Prodigy is epic, obviously, since she joined The Order.
I still don't buy this PC class % population thing, and Penn has backed away from that too. You don't put people where they could not possibly function or survive, regardless of what the gods of population tatistics say. That's not just bad storytelling; it's compulsive symmetry.
I think that there are four main factors governing the occurrence of people with PC classes and/or high levels:
1- Prodigies: Some people are going to be powerful and competent no matter the circumstances.
2- Numbers: All other things being equal, larger populations will feature more competent people for the reason of simple statistics.
3- Adversity: Populations subjected to harsher circumstances will have to toughen up or perish. This especially promotes high levels.
4- Training: Specialized training will enhance the general competence of a population. Of course, specialized training is usually a survival measure against adversity, but they are still two different things. Training especially promotes the occurrence of PC classes.
I like the idea of having experienced Kurnans being Experts with just one level of Fighter. Combining PC classes with NPC classes is a fine way of describing people that are almost exceptional, but not quite. There is even a precedent of sorts for that: it happens routinely in the Star Wars D20 game. Also, it fits the concept that they are normal people that do normal stuff in their everyday lives, but have received some specialized training and occasionally face serious adversity.
I'd imagine that we're reallying dealing with a lot of Experts -- Survival is a skill just like any others, so you can have Survivalist Experts... for those that aren't warriors
Some time ago I tried designing a NPC class for hunters (I called it the Wastelander), but eventually gave up un the idea because I realized the Expert class possessed most of the traits I wanted. I agree that the Expert is a reasonably good NPC class for regular desert wandering tribesmen. Nevertheless, specialized PC classes should also be present in significant (though lesser) numbers, due to the severe harshness of the wastes. Many could be hybrids: a few Expert levels and maybe one or even two levels in Ranger.
I *don't* think we want anything like an Adept in Athas, because defiling and preserving is a big deal, and should be a PC class since you take your life in your hands when you start dabbling in that stuff in most cities
Certainly, arcane magic should require levels in a specialized arcane spellcaster class, namely the Wizard. However, the DMG Adept is a divine spellcaster; they even have to pray to get their spells. I think that the Adept class can fit nicely in the Dark Sun setting: just ditch any relation to arcane magic and specify that the class gets spells from the Minor SotLs, just like the the Ranger. As for the Familiar class feature, just change its name to Totemic Spirit or something of the sort.
In the cities, the Adept class could provide midwives and healers that are not Clerics. In the wilderness, the Adept class could provide shamans that are not Druids. This way, Athas’ strong animistic flavor can be explored without the danger of overusing PC classes.
I don't know if it was true in life at some point in time, but in some chinese movies about the past you have whole communities of farmers and crafters and merchants that all know martial arts and can fight against invaders.
This is in all Westerners' psyches.
I wouldn't be surprised if a good portion of Eldaarich basic citizenry were unarmed combat-Fighters.
In fact I smell a PrC in the air. Jon once did this Pit Fighter (unarmed gladiator) PrC, so maybe we could adapt it or invent something in the line of it, and which could be given to people. Just an idea.
I've actually developed a number of martial arts feats for Eldaarich; I think they'll be in the upcoming update to Wisdom of the Drylanders.
Cool! That's what I thought originally, but some folks argued to me that it made no sense that those people would be fighters when they'd never worn armor. They kind of need the feats to learn the martial arts, though.
I read this and despair.
Using the Fighter class for martial artists is perfectly justifiable, under the current DS rules. But I can’t help but think that this would be much better handled if the Psionic Monk was a core class instead of a PrC.
I read this and despair.
Using the Fighter class for martial artists is perfectly justifiable, under the current DS rules. But I can’t help but think that this would be much better handled if the Psionic Monk was a core class instead of a PrC.
If the monk was a core class, then they wouldn't need cults in Eldaarich to learn their special abilities. 3.5 doesn't let us say that monks are a core class, but only in Eldaarich. I wish it did, because that would work perfectly for Eldaarich. But if monks were everywhere on Athas, then I'd still be stuck looking for special stuff in Eldaarich that was no where else, because that's what Prodigy described in Wisdom of Terror, because that's the likely result of Daskinor's reign of terror and oppression breed. New startling ways of doing things and of surviving without weapons.
1- Prodigies: Some people are going to be powerful and competent no matter the circumstances.
2- Numbers: All other things being equal, larger populations will feature more competent people for the reason of simple statistics.
3- Adversity: Populations subjected to harsher circumstances will have to toughen up or perish. This especially promotes high levels.
4- Training: Specialized training will enhance the general competence of a population. Of course, specialized training is usually a survival measure against adversity, but they are still two different things. Training especially promotes the occurrence of PC classes.
Here's a question: can you separate 1 and 2? What causes prodigies within a population, other than numbers?
If the monk was a core class, then they wouldn't need cults in Eldaarich to learn their special abilities.
Just because some special ability is the bread-and-butter of a core class, it doesn’t mean it’s not especial. The Wizard is a perfect example of this. Arcane spellcasting is perhaps the most powerful, restricted and hard to get ability in the entirety of Athas. But it’s in the hands of a core class.
3.5 doesn't let us say that monks are a core class, but only in Eldaarich. I wish it did, because that would work perfectly for Eldaarich.
Why not? I can think, off the top of my head, of three entirely canon sources for Psi Monk characters (Eldaarich being one of them), another two sources which require slight reinterpretations of canon but which do not offend the setting’s flavour, and a sixth source which is basically a no-brainer (the Villichi). Psionic Monks could reasonably be just as numerous as Wizards or Druids, and almost as widespread. And not necessarily less special.
But if monks were everywhere on Athas, then I'd still be stuck looking for special stuff in Eldaarich that was no where else,
If it is so special, then that’s more reason for not going with Fighters. That doesn’t sound very special to me.
The best way of handling this would be through PrCs representing different martial arts (Cuurnu, Keshai, Villichi, etc.). It could also be done through a PC class with feat tracks (kind of like the Ranger’s) or through something similar to the Bard’s Trade Secrets. Or a combination of all of them, say a specific PrC that requires some class feature or feat linked to a specific martial art.
because that's what Prodigy described in Wisdom of Terror, because that's the likely result of Daskinor's reign of terror and oppression breed. New startling ways of doing things and of surviving without weapons.
Prodigy is Oronis’ lover that “deserted” to the Order, right? She may be knowledgeable, due to her links to an SK and to her experience as a spy, but she’s neither omniscient nor impartial (Her parents come from Eldaarich, if I remember correctly).
She may be unaware of other people that developed martial arts, or may have simply overlooked them. (She must have: what about Draxan keshai?)
Or, if you go with PrCs, maybe the Prestige Class related to the Eldaaricans is particularly potent.
Here's a question: can you separate 1 and 2? What causes prodigies within a population, other than numbers?
Well, for starters Lady Luck (i.e., pure chance, sometimes weird stuff happens, despite the odds). And, most importantly, the authors’ will. As you pointed out earlier, Athas seems to be filled with too many prodigies for such a small population: this is a trait of the setting. Even a tiny tribe could be blessed with an exceedingly powerful tribesmember.
A Monk is a martial artist, a martial artist is not a Monk.
You don't need unarmed bonuses to damage or dodge bonuses to AC to make you a martial artist.
For those who read the Arena Mage PrC I wrote up, then you'll notice those guys are martial artists: They get Improved Unarmed Strike and fight using melee touch spells. They don't use weapons or armor, and thus must have a high Dex score to survive.
If a wizard PrC can be considered a martial artist, then surely a Fighter can.
I see no problem with using the Fighter class to represent one breed of martial artist.
As I said before:
Using the Fighter class for martial artists is perfectly justifiable, under the current DS rules.
Justifiable? Certainly. But not the best alternative. Particularly given Brax’s description of the Eldaarican martial artists being so especial.
A Monk is a martial artist, a martial artist is not a Monk.
If you take the PHB Monk’s description to the letter, then yes, not all martial artists in the world are monastic cultists that focus on unarmed combat.
But Brax does describe his Eldaarican martial artists as cultists.
Actually, you said it yourself: the Eldaarican martial artists sound like those peasants from Asian history/legend that fought against impossible odds with expert unarmed combat techniques. As Brax said, that has “Okinawa” (the source of Karate) writen all over.
Furthermore, I see no problem of amending the fluff of the class a little to allow for Psi Monks that were not raised in monasteries but do conform to the class’ feel. The same kind of thing has been done to the Barbarian, remember? No vikings or orcish tribes on Athas, but the class describes slave tribes and city brutes quite well, so change the fluff!
You don't need unarmed bonuses to damage or dodge bonuses to AC to make you a martial artist.
Don’t forget the saving throws that reflect the sharper reflexes and stronger willpower that come with martial arts training. Or a dozen other class features that enhance the class’ feel and its combat effectiveness both.
Fighters are mediocre martial artists, at best.
For those who read the Arena Mage PrC I wrote up, then you'll notice those guys are martial artists: They get Improved Unarmed Strike and fight using melee touch spells. They don't use weapons or armor, and thus must have a high Dex score to survive.
If a wizard PrC can be considered a martial artist, then surely a Fighter can.
Yes, but the Arena Mage is really a Wizard, isn’t it? It doesn’t describe someone that relies solely on his unarmed combat skills for survival, nor treats his martial techniques as a way of life or (almost) as his religion. That’s how Wisdom of the Drylanders describes Cuurnu.
I see no problem with using the Fighter class to represent one breed of martial artist.
A Monk is a martial artist, a martial artist is not a Monk.
You don't need unarmed bonuses to damage or dodge bonuses to AC to make you a martial artist.
For those who read the Arena Mage PrC I wrote up, then you'll notice those guys are martial artists: They get Improved Unarmed Strike and fight using melee touch spells. They don't use weapons or armor, and thus must have a high Dex score to survive.
If a wizard PrC can be considered a martial artist, then surely a Fighter can.
I agree. The fighters are perfect for Eldaarich because the feats allow me to show the different fighting styles in the different cults, *without* resorting to bunches of mid-level charcters.
I would love to have base monks in Eldaarich to represent *one* of the cults, but it's not essential. And I can't think of a way in 3.5 to say: only villichi or Eldaarish people can be base monks. I wish there was, but there isn't.
Please don't point me to the prestige classes to resolve the martial arts issues, since the vast majority of cult members will be below 5th level.
This isn't FR's cult of the dragon. In Eldaarich, they join the cults for personal protection, not enlightenment. People join these cults since weapons are illegal, crime is high, and the authorities are useless. Not many large Athasian cities have a problem with urban cannibalism. Generally in Tyr, you risk getting robbed and beaten, not robbed and eaten. People are starving. You don't join Tsao Gunt's cult of the Great Leap Sideways and let Tsao Gunt molest your kids if you think you have other options.
Hang on....
Doing some thinking here.
About 1/3 of kids in Eldaarich are raised in state orphanages. At age 12 they get tossed out, and the kids with families are set up for the few jobs in town. So these kids either turn to crime, or they join one of the cults, or they join the Shtas (who guard the walls, and oversee slaves at South Guard), or they become concubines for the Kulag, or they prostitute themselves in the ruins ... not sure what to do with them...
So apply Reynolds' logic, if a human joins a martial arts cult at age 12:
12=1st level human commoner, Feats: Hidden Talent, Improved Unarmed Attack, Concentration 2 ranks, Jump 4 ranks, and Profession (?) 2 ranks.
13 = 2nd level commoner. Skills: Concentration 2 ranks, Jump 5 ranks, Profession (?) 5 ranks.
15= 3rd level commoner. Feat: Psionic Fist; Skills: Concentration 2 ranks, Jump 6 ranks, Profession (?) 6 ranks, Craft (?) 2 ranks
18=4th level commoner. Skills: Concentration 2 ranks, Jump 7 ranks, Profession (?) 7 ranks, Craft (?) 4 ranks
I'd read that you need to be 5th level before taking a PrC, in general, but here, specifically, it looks like my orphanage kid has the prerequisites at age 18, although he'd still need the XPs to advance to the next level.
Requirements
To qualify to become a psionic monk, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Concentration 2 ranks, Jump 7 ranks.
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Psionic Fist.
Psionics: Must have a power point reserve.
One might argue that he needs combat experience (rather than the mundane experience that Sean Reynolds was speaking of) *before* taking the PrC. But others here suggest that simple intense training might give him one level in a PC class, which would presumably inclde a PrC, right?
If it works that way, then I could use PrCs to handle the martial arts cults. It results in characters that are much higher level than I thought, but I guess with the commoner levels, higher level is not necessarily more powerful than a 2nd level fighter.
So I end up with a huge number of weak 5th and 6th level characters, but very few of them advance beyond that, except as commoners, because the XP tables are heavily slanted against them; to defeat a critter with CR high enough to give them combat experience would be very hard. And since they are part of this martial arts cult, they would probably be more interested in progressing in the PrC than in any other way, so even their commoner experience might be stymied. Someone that might have hit 9th level decades ago would instead struggle to hit 2nd level in the PrC before he turned 40. (assuming he lived that long, which is a big assumption.)
Is all of that correct? Have I erred anywhere?
(Note that SR said that he picked age 20 as a starting point for convenient math only; he even said that younger ages would be more realistic).
I wasn't looking for an excuse to put martial arts into Eldaarich. My specialty here is history and cultural development, and I see martial arts as a structure that emanates from certain cultural situations. I begged others to write martial arts feats, because I'm not qualified either in terms of 3.5 mechanics nor in terms of knowing about the martial arts themselves. If anyone sees something innacurate about what I'm saying about martial arts, please correct me. There are certain topics where I really know my stuff. Martial arts are not one of those areas. The issue about Okinawa and the development of Karate, fascinates me because it shows how politics and bad government create certain voids, and how something always steps in to fill the void. The state oppresses people in a particular way, and the people respond in interesting but predictable ways.
As I said before:
Justifiable? Certainly. But not the best alternative. Particularly given Brax’s description of the Eldaarican martial artists being so especial.
To clarify: I mean that they are *different,* not special. Not better. Different in the way that Navaho language and English and Finish are different from each other. Different, because these styles appeared in Eldaarich. They did not learn them from other people. If a Tyrian gladiator turns out able to kick an Eldaarish Cuurnu master to bits, I honestly don't care. My point is to create distinctive forms of martial arts that are unique to Eldaarich. I'm telling a story; not trying to build a bigger better King Kong.
If you take the PHB Monk’s description to the letter, then yes, not all martial artists in the world are monastic cultists that focus on unarmed combat.
But Brax does describe his Eldaarican martial artists as cultists.
Actually, you said it yourself: the Eldaarican martial artists sound like those peasants from Asian history/legend that fought against impossible odds with expert unarmed combat techniques. As Brax said, that has “Okinawa” (the source of Karate) writen all over.
Yes. But these are cults of personality. Your vow of poverty means that you give everything to your teacher, and your vow of obedience means you look the other way while your sensei does your wife. Eldaarish cults are more like Jim Jones than Mr. Miyagi. In a word, this is Eldaarich.
Furthermore, I see no problem of amending the fluff of the class a little to allow for Psi Monks that were not raised in monasteries but do conform to the class’ feel.
The problem is that the feel of the Eldaarish cults is really really different from the villichi organizations. The problem is that 3.5 doesn't let you limit a core class to a specific situation. Once it's core, it's ubiquitous.
The same kind of thing has been done to the Barbarian, remember? No vikings or orcish tribes on Athas, but the class describes slave tribes and city brutes quite well, so change the fluff!
I'm the one that wrote that description, and suggested pitching the Barbarian as a brute. What's done is done, I guess. If I'd known then that people would say that city-brutes should be warriors, then I'd never have written that description or agreed to bring in the Barbarian class.
Fighters are mediocre martial artists, at best.
They are now, simply because no one has published adequate martial arts feats. That's about to change:
[INDENT]Fast Tumble [General]
You can tumble faster
Prerequisites: Tumble 4 ranks
Benefits: While unarmed and unarmored, you can tumble up to your full movement speed in melee by taking -4 to your tumble check. This feat conveys no benefit to those wearing armor or holding a weapon. Environmental effects that slow movement, like rubble, or spells and powers that slow movement, like Slow, still affect movement speed while tumbling.
Normal: You can tumble at half your movement speed.
Great Leap Sideways [Regional]
Your cult master has taught you a trick that allows you to move out of harm’s way in melee
Prerequisites: Member of Tzao Gunt’s cult in Eldaarich;
Benefits: While unarmed and unarmored, you can move ten feet after a full round action, rather than a 5-foot step. This feat does not protect you from attacks of opportunity, nor does it convey any benefit if you are wearing armor or holding a weapon. If you possess the Fast Tumble feat, then you can attempt to tumble for your 10 foot move ( the -4 Tumble penalty for Fast Tumble still applies).
Normal: Without this feat, you can only take a 5 foot step.
Improved Total Defense [General]You can stand your ground and wait for their enemies to let down their guard
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Attack
Benefits: If you take a full-round action rather than a standard action to execute a total defense action, you can make attacks of opportunity. This benefit only applies if you are unarmed and unarmored.
Normal: The Total Defense Action takes only a standard action, and those using it cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Improvised Armor [General]You exploit your environment’s defensive capabilities
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency
If you have any degree of cover, you gain an additional +2 circumstance bonus, but this bonus only applies when you are unarmored.
Pain Specialist [General]You know how to strike humanoids’ sensitive spots.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Attack, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Attack)
Benefits: Your unarmed attacks cause an additional +2 points of nonlethal damage against humanoid opponents, stacking with any other lethal or nonlethal damage caused by your attack. This feat cannot affect monstrous humanoids, or creatures who do not take nonlethal damage such as undead.
Serenity[General]
You have been taught the Eldaarish martial art of Cuurnu
Prerequisites: Paranoid, Speak Language (Cuurnu), Perform (dance) 1 rank
Benefits: When you improvise weapons using tools and other household objects that you use on a daily basis for mundane non-combat purposes, you are treated as “fighting unarmed” for purposes of other feats. You also halve the penalties for fighting with those familliar improvised weapons. As long as you hear the heartbeat drums, you gain a +1 to your Will saves. Knowledge (Psionics) is a class skill.
Serene Path [General]
You have advanced in the Eldaarish martial art of Cuurnu
Prerequisites: Paranoid, Serenity, Speak Language (Cuurnu), Perform (dance) 1 rank, Knowledge (psionics) 1 rank
Benefits: While fighting unarmored, you take only a -1 penalty to fight with any kind of improvised weapons. You gain a +4 will bonus to any fear attack.
Normal: Most characters take a -4 penalty to use any improvised weapon. With the Serene Path feat, your penalty was reduced to -2, only for improvising weapons with familiar tools that you used on a daily basis.
Stand Your Ground [General]
You can stand your ground and wait for your attackers to let down their guard
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Attack, Improved Total Defense
Benefits. When you are using Improved Total Defense, you can make attacks of opportunity against foes who miss you. The benefit only applies if you are unarmed and unarmored.
Unarmed Reactions [General]
You react more quickly when unarmed
Prerequisites: Improved Initiative, Unarmed/Unarmored, Move of at least 50 feet/round
Benefits: When unarmed and unarmored, you gain +5 to your initiative roll. This stacks with the +4 from your Improved Initiative feat. This feat provides no benefit when you are wearing armor or holding a weapon.
Unarmed Reflexes [Unarmed]
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Attack, Wisdom 13
Benefit: Your maximum number of attacks of opportunity increase by your Wisdom modifier, depending on which is higher. This benefit only applies if you are unarmed and unarmored. You are still limited to one attack of opportunity per opponent, but the benefit stacks with the attacks of opportunity provided by Combat Reflexes, if you have that feat.
Tumble Through [General]
You can tumble, attack, and tumble away.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Tumble (7 ranks)
Benefit: When using the attack action with an unarmed attack, you can tumble both before and after the attack. This feat gives you no protection against attacks of opportunity if you fail your Tumble check (DC 15, see page 85 of the Player’s Handbook)
[/INDENT]
I'd like to develop more than this, but none of my DS friends who know about martial arts have offered any help here. I'm not interested in pushing the envelope in terms of power. I'm looking for distinct abilities that are cool and distinctly Eldaarish. Not abilities so powerful that people will want to create Eldaarish cult franchizes in Tyr and Balic.
I'd read that you need to be 5th level before taking a PrC, in general
Wrong. Really, the only requirements for taking a Prestige Class is fulfilling the requirements stated in its description. WotC and others have done Prestige Classes which requirements can be fulfilled at 3rd or even 2nd level.
Is all of that correct? Have I erred anywhere?
I’ll have to take a better look, but off hand your math seems correct.
And I can't think of a way in 3.5 to say: only villichi or Eldaarish people can be base monks. I wish there was, but there isn't.
There’s no way in 3.5 to say: rhul-thaun halflings cannot be Wizards. Only commonsense and good DMing stand in the way of that atrocity.
Also, I firmly believe that there is no reason why there shouldn’t be base Monks elsewhere on Athas. As I mentioned above, I can provide reasonable explanations for Villichi, Draxan, Raamin, Nibenese and even Balican Psi Monks.
In Eldaarich, they join the cults for personal protection, not enlightenment. People join these cults since weapons are illegal, crime is high, and the authorities are useless.
Again, that has “Okinawa” written all over. Many Asian martial arts were created for practical purposes only – to fight the foreigners during the Boxers rebellion, for instance. The rest were created for religious and practical purposes: to induce meditative mindsets and protect themselves from bandits.
Edit: Another good example occurred to me. A few Chinese martial arts were developed by secret society cults that were intent on opposing or surviving harsh and oppressive rulers, such as the Mongols or the Manchu. Anybody watched Kill Bill 2? Remember Pai Mei?
Wrong. Really, the only requirements for taking a Prestige Class is fulfilling the requirements stated in its description. WotC and others have done Prestige Classes which requirements can be fulfilled at 3rd or even 2nd level.
Ah!. So the question here is whether the appropriate bureau would approve them for Dark Sun. Jon?
Ah -- here's another interesting one:
To qualify to become a soulknife, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +3.
Skills: Knowledge (psionics) 4 ranks.
Psionics: Must have a power point reserve.
Let's say the kid was lucky enough to get into a cult that spent more time giving him training at the onset, rather than letting him shlep it like the last commoner until he hit 4th level.
1st level Human Warrior: BAB +1, Feat: Hidden Talent, ___; Skills: Knowledge Psionics 4 ranks, 2 ranks in something else.
2nd level Warrior: BAB +2, Feat: Hidden Talent, ___; Skills: Knowledge Psionics 4 ranks, 5 ranks in something else.
2nd level Warrior: BAB +2, Feat: Hidden Talent, ___; Skills: Knowledge Psionics 4 ranks, 5 ranks in something else.
3rd level Warrior: BAB +3, Feat: Hidden Talent, ___, ___; Skills: Knowledge Psionics 4 ranks, 7 ranks in other skills.
Now boom, experiencence points, training, and he's got a mindblade.
If that's how these NPC classes and PrCs interact, then you've helped me find the solution to my problems, and I thank you all very much!
If I'm doing something wrong here, please show me!!
I’ll have to take a better look, but off hand your math seems correct.
There’s no way in 3.5 to say: rhul-thaun halflings cannot be Wizards. Only commonsense and good DMing stand in the way of that atrocity.
There's virtually no communication between Rhul-thaun and the outside world. If a Rhul-thaun left the Jagged cliffs, I'm not sure why it would be good DMing to tell the player he could not learn magic. But he'd cease to be a rhul-thaun. Really he'd not be Rhulthaun the moment he left wanting to explore the outside world.
Also, I firmly believe that there is no reason why there shouldn’t be base Monks elsewhere on Athas. As I mentioned above, I can provide reasonable explanations for Villichi, Draxan, Raamin, Nibenese and even Balican Psi Monks.
Sure. But base classes strip us as designers from all control. If the DM wants monks in his campaign, he can put them in. If we put them in, then DMs complain to us that their players are using us as authority to say that their Tyrian character is a monk.
Again, that has “Okinawa” written all over. Many Asian martial arts were created for practical purposes only – to fight the foreigners during the Boxers rebellion, for instance.
I doubt it, unless the Boxer rebellion lasted dozens of years. More likely they assimilated, renamed, combined, and disseminated teachings from existing martial arts.
The rest were created for religious and practical purposes: to induce meditative mindsets and protect themselves from bandits.
Yep. And those evolved over time, not for a sudden contingency.
If that's how these NPC classes and PrCs interact, then you've helped me find the solution to my problems, and I thank you all very much!
If I'm doing something wrong here, please show me!!
The problem is that Knowledge (Psionics) is not class skill for warriors, so a NPCs has to be War5 to be able to have 4 ranks in it. An Exp4 would be able to qualify. So would a War3 with a feat that would allow him to have Knowledge (Psionics) as a class skill (there are several out there).
If that still made you happy - great! I made the suggestion to Jon to lower the requirements of the Soul Knive exactly because I wanted lower level NPCs to be able to take the PrC. :D
(I can't recall, I wrote this so long ago, but Cuurnu sounds like a name WIll came up with. Will is the best cool name generator that I've ever run into.)
Ah!. So the question here is whether the appropriate bureau would approve them for Dark Sun. Jon?
After you guys shot down my Soldier PrC five years ago under the argument that it wasn´t "enough prestige" in a prestige class that could be taken at 3rd level? :P To all those that weren´t around - that class would have kept the unique fighter abilities of 2E Dark Sun fighters without the use of feats or the Warcraft skill. But I suppose we can´t all be visionaries. ;)
Jokes aside, while there is precedent for prestige classes with low entry points, I actually prefer core class variants. When it comes to the Psionic Monk, it can already be taken at 5th level. I suppose I could please the monk fans out there by reducing the requirements so it could be taken at 3rd level, if that is what people want, but bear in mind that the psionic monk has a faster unarmed damage improvement rate than regular monks, to offset the fact that they enter the class at 5th level. I haven´t run the numbers to see if it comes out unbalanced. If we can avoid tinkering with the class requirements, that is preferred.
After you guys shot down my Soldier PrC five years ago under the argument that it wasn´t "enough prestige" in a prestige class that could be taken at 3rd level? :P To all those that weren´t around - that class would have kept the unique fighter abilities of 2E Dark Sun fighters without the use of feats or the Warcraft skill. But I suppose we can´t all be visionaries. ;)
Jokes aside, while there is precedent for prestige classes with low entry points, I actually prefer core class variants. When it comes to the Psionic Monk, it can already be taken at 5th level. I suppose I could please the monk fans out there by reducing the requirements so it could be taken at 3rd level, if that is what people want, but bear in mind that the psionic monk has a faster unarmed damage improvement rate than regular monks, to offset the fact that they enter the class at 5th level. I haven´t run the numbers to see if it comes out unbalanced. If we can avoid tinkering with the class requirements, that is preferred.
3rd level would be good, if it balances.
Core class variants don't allow you to restrict them to a specific locale, so that doesn't help my Eldaarish cults at all -- unless ... unless it was a fighter variant with no armor profs, no martial weapons, d8 dice, and 4 skill points instead of 2. That could be used in other places, but in the Eldaarish cults, I could plug in Eldaarish martial arts feats, and have them function better in Eldaarish society, e.g have a profession or craft skill, etc. as well as having a couple skill related to fighting. Is that something you'd consider?
After you guys shot down my Soldier PrC five years ago under the argument that it wasn´t "enough prestige" in a prestige class that could be taken at 3rd level? :P To all those that weren´t around - that class would have kept the unique fighter abilities of 2E Dark Sun fighters without the use of feats or the Warcraft skill. But I suppose we can´t all be visionaries. ;)
I don't think I was one of the down-shooters, and back then you didn't have the rules on your side. 3.5 repealed the hardline rule on prestige classes only applying after 5+ core levels. So I guess visionary is right.