I suppose I'll begin by getting to the heart of the matter off the bat: I think that Vorostokov needs a MASSIVE makeover.
I'm something of a Russophile, and I'm currently in the process of jump-starting a career as an expert on Russian politics, culture, history, etc. When I first found out that there was a Russia-themed domain in Ravenloft, I was pretty excited. But now, I must confess, I find myself less and less impressed with the domain of Vorostokov as I read about it. I haven't read "Dark of the Moon," which I understand is the big Vorostokov campaign, but my perception of the domain, from what I've read, is that it's a take-off on pre-Christian, pagan Russia - which, to me, comes as shame, because while it's undeniably a Dark Ages setting (if even THAT advanced), it's worlds apart from what I view as a much more interesting period in Russian history: the Russian Empire, the guargantuan, mighty, and intensely religious heir to Byzantium.
Which, I suppose, brings me to my point. To put it simply, I think a much more interesting turn of events for Vorostokov would be for it to find both religion, and a cultural history that is derived from a once-powerful, now-decrepit patron state, a la Byzantium. This could lead to a new evil coming into the picture, in the form of a take-off on Ivan the Terrible or even Peter the Great, depose Zolnik, become the Darklord himself, and rapidly unite the nation into a powerful-but-forboding (and still tremendously socially backwards compared to Richemulot, Dementlieu, Lamordia etc) empire.
Now, I know that, as a DM, I am free to add this into a campaign if I wish, and I know that I'd like to. My question, however, is, "Why SHOULDN'T I do this?"
Does Vorostokov's status as a remote backwater really serve any purpose? And what IS the appeal of Gregor Zolnik, anyway? Why SHOULDN'T I depose him in favor of an Ivan IV figure (and in the process, potentially design a new strain of vampirism or something else nasty to characterize the new Darklord)?
Now, I know that, as a DM, I am free to add this into a campaign if I wish, and I know that I'd like to. My question, however, is, "Why SHOULDN'T I do this?"
Does Vorostokov's status as a remote backwater really serve any purpose? And what IS the appeal of Gregor Zolnik, anyway? Why SHOULDN'T I depose him in favor of an Ivan IV figure (and in the process, potentially design a new strain of vampirism or something else nasty to characterize the new Darklord)?
Simple. The basic premise of that domain is that it's locked in perpetual winter and very VERY difficult to access (although a wee bit less so since it became part of a cluster).
Winter = cold = no harvest, lean & hungry animals, and no grass for the livestock
No access = no external source of food
Combine both and you get a very bleak picture which explains why GZ was able to take over by dangling the promise of providing food to those who are hungry (and to ruthlessly butcher those who forego his "help"). In short, the domain is tailor-made to its darklord, not the other way around.
Enter a would-be dictator. Say, Ivan the Terrible.
What can he do? To have an army, he needs supplies. So, either he is a better hunter than GZ and willing to kill the same.. ah.. "prey" to feed his soldiers (which would deplete the population in a short time) or he needs to be able to conjure tons of food out of thin air. Granted, a powerful cleric could probably pull that stunt but he better be prepared to sit all day long casting Create Food & Water (or Heroes' Feast) which would leave him precious little time to forge an empire.
Even then, how would he resist the attacks of GZ and his "men" for long given who (or, rather, what) they are? Every soldier wounded would become a potential enemy.
At one time, I toyed with the idea of bringing a decently powerful priest of Zhakata to Vorostokov to do something like that but unless he managed to - somehow - take control of the snow wraiths (the only local monsters tough enough to take on GZ and his buddies), it was doomed to fail.
Now that the most recent info on the domain seems to hint that it has become possible to cross from Vorostokov to Sanguinia and back, the vampiric lord of that domain might take an interest in the natives, although I doubt it.
No access = no external source of food
This is an interesting point that I've been mulling over myself while thinking about Vorostokov. One thing that we don't see much of happening, in my experience with Ravenloft, is an actual expansion to a domain. The only instances that come to mind are the merging of Dorvinia with Borca and Gundarak with Barovia. (although there could be some I'm not thinking of off-hand)
As anyone who has studied Russian history can probably guess, however, this is where a holding like the Ukraine might come into play: Ukraine was the breadbasket of the Russian Empire. Perhaps the entrance of a warlord with imperial aspirations, and a self-styled connection to a grand old culture that now no longer exists, could herald the mists suddenly "parting" over a southern, slightly-warmer, more-pliable region of Vorostokov?
Or does this sound to anyone like so much trouble that I may as well create a completely new domain?
As anyone who has studied Russian history can probably guess, however, this is where a holding like the Ukraine might come into play: Ukraine was the breadbasket of the Russian Empire. Perhaps the entrance of a warlord with imperial aspirations, and a self-styled connection to a grand old culture that now no longer exists, could herald the mists suddenly "parting" over a southern, slightly-warmer, more-pliable region of Vorostokov?
Or does this sound to anyone like so much trouble that I may as well create a completely new domain?
Well, in theory, Sanguinia might become Vorostokov's breadbasket, although it would surprise me indeed if its vampiric prince didn't object loudly to the "take over". Werewolves vs vampires. Hmm.. why does that remind me of another game...
In truth, methink your idea is fine but deserve a totally new domain. Note that, in a sense, Falkovnia already is that domain. Just one with a more German than Russian feel.
Well, in theory, Sanguinia might become Vorostokov's breadbasket, although it would surprise me indeed if its vampiric prince didn't object loudly to the "take over".
Yes indeed - at first, I actually had very high hopes for Sanguinia. I had read that fan write-up on Mircea's background, as an actual Gothic Earth Russian Orthodox monk who had sold his soul to the Devil, and I thought that would be a splendid place for an actually Russian domain to take root, instead of a place like Vorostokov, which only resembles Russia in perhaps the 10th century.
But then, of course, I found out that it was only a fan write-up, and Mircea and his realm are actually based on Poe's "The Masque of Red Death." So that idea pretty much went out the window.
Werewolves vs vampires. Hmm.. why does that remind me of another game...
Or a couple recent movies for that matter.:P
In truth, methink your idea is fine but deserve a totally new domain. Note that, in a sense, Falkovnia already is that domain. Just one with a more German than Russian feel.
Fair enough; I suppose that would be a more interesting way of going about it, anyway. It would be pretty cool, anyway, if the inhabitants of Sanguinea and Vorostokov woke up one morning and found that there's suddenly a HUGE landmass, ruled by a very powerful emperor, attached to their country. Sanguinea would become what Poland was to Russia a few centuries ago (ie: a viable competitive state).
My biggest concern would be with not making Vorostokov completely redundant and obsolete, though. But then again, I suppose my new domain could represent Russia's aspirations to gain legitimacy as heir to the Byzantine tradition, as well as to Westernize, while Vorostokov could come to symbolize the untameable, wild nature of Siberia and the Far East.
Anyway, I'll tinker around with this a bit and post what I come up with in the near future. Thanks for the comments, folks; they've been genuinely helpful.
EDIT: If anyone has any ideas for a Darklord "gimmick," (ie: his curse, monster type, class, etc) by the way, feel free to post 'em. Making the Tsar (or whatever title I give him) a new type of vampiric strain seemed like an interesting idea to me, mainly because, let's face it, who in the history of the human race has looked more-vampiric than Ivan IV?;)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Vasnetsov_Ioann_4.jpg
But if there's a monster race or type that anyone thinks is underrepresented and would fit this character a lot better, I'd love to hear your idea.
EDIT: If anyone has any ideas for a Darklord "gimmick," (ie: his curse, monster type, class, etc) by the way, feel free to post 'em. Making the Tsar (or whatever title I give him) a new type of vampiric strain seemed like an interesting idea to me, mainly because, let's face it, who in the history of the human race has looked more-vampiric than Ivan IV?
But if there's a monster race or type that anyone thinks is underrepresented and would fit this character a lot better, I'd love to hear your idea.
Well, personally, I would go with either a Dhampir (half-vampire) or a Vampyre since both are equally bloodthirsty but don't have a vampire's traditional weaknesses.
The curse could be an ardent desire to become a *true* vampire, in which case both Vorostokov (shapechanging wolf-like creatures) and Sanguinia (vampiric alchemist) would be tempting targets in order to steal such secret from their respective darklords.
Fair enough; I suppose that would be a more interesting way of going about it, anyway. It would be pretty cool, anyway, if the inhabitants of Sanguinea and Vorostokov woke up one morning and found that there's suddenly a HUGE landmass, ruled by a very powerful emperor, attached to their country.
I'd like to point out that Vorostokov is already huge - it's literally twice or much as large as the Core.
Otherwise, this sounds like a fine idea for a new domain in the Frozen Reaches cluster.
Chris Nichols
I'd like to point out that Vorostokov is already huge - it's literally twice or much as large as the Core.
Otherwise, this sounds like a fine idea for a new domain in the Frozen Reaches cluster.
O RLY? Good to know, thanks! Maybe my new domain won't be too much bigger, then, after all.
Vorostokov is far too under-populated and rual to really be an "empire". The largest settlement has maybe one-hundred people, and the entire domain has around 1,000. This is for 40,000+ square miles. It is afterall locked in a harsh and endless winter.
Vorostokov is based on Russia, but it's more of a seculded backwater than anything.
Vorostokov is based on Russia, but it's more of a seculded backwater than anything.
Right, which is why I think it either needs a change, or a new domain needs to be created: because A, that's nothing like Renaissance-era Russia, and B, Renaissance-era Russia is much more interesting than this.
Barovia is based off of Romanian Russia.
Falkovnia is based off of Russia under an infamous dictator. I forget whether it was Stalin or Ivan the Terrible.
No it isn't. It's a riff on brutal human tyranny in general. It draws details from Ivan the Terrible, Hitler, Vlad Tepes -- you name it. It isn't "based" on anything.
Barovia is based off of Romanian Russia.
It would be closer to say that Barovia is "based" on Transylvania, as it appeared in Dracula.
Falkovnia is based off of Russia under an infamous dictator. I forget whether it was Stalin or Ivan the Terrible.
Actually, as John W. Mangrum pointed out, it's an amalgamation of police states in general. Drakov, in particular, seems based mostly, if not entirely, upon Vlad Tepes.
Barovia is based off of Romanian Russia.
Romania was never part of Russia.
Check here: http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Library.html
I know your pain. I also happen to like some of the "othercultures" in Ravenloft, especially in Chinese and East Asian themes, which I think definitely have some elements of horror.
However, the canonical domains are pretty terrible. I'Cath and Rokushima Taiyoo are fairly stereotypical and don't even begin to scratch the surface.
My solution was to start working on a cluster of domains (or even a second core) that was similar to Earth's East Asian nations. Of course, it won't be as great in detail as the materials already put out there, but it will give me a chance to put some slightly-less-stereotypical stuff out there for others to use.
Russia is vast, and I could imagine a compelling setting of five or six domains, each mimicking a separate region of Russia and ethnic group. Like China, Russia's one of those nations that is actually cobbled together of a large number of component kingdoms and ethnic groups - it could be quite a bit of fun to summarize the differences and the cultural unique traits of each.
Then again, you would have to have a lot of time on your hands to do that...
Oh, it wasn't? Sorry.
Sorry if I came off a little harsh there, but over the years I've seen fans get into way too many heated arguments over how "domain X" should be handled, since it's "based on Y."
From my point of view, it's like watching people argue themselves into angry fits over whether banana peels are neon pink or blue, so I like to nip it in the bud where appropriate.
(Just teasing... I kid because I love)
As many others domains in Ravenloft, this region was drawn from another TSR world - Aebrinus (Birthright campaign setting). This domain isn't based on russian culture, but rather on Vos culture (Birthright's russo/mongol/hunnu/BBEG/ human nation) - brutal, theocratic, armed with Dark Age TL and utterly barbaric. All cultural terms and names are quasi-russian, but that's all. Oh, and famous long hard winters...
If you want to know more about Vos, try to find "Tribes of Heartless Wastes" TSR Birthright campaign sourcebook or Birthright boxed set (both from mid-1990s).
Vorostokov IMO was drawn from northern part of vos land - for its nature and sparse population fits TSR description exactly.
Vos titles, contrary to the Russian, are:
Tsor/Tsora (m/f) - baron/duke/king, independent ruler
Tsarevic (:D ) - overlord or high king of Vos (very similar to russian "son of Tsar")
Boyar/Boyara - courtier (of court martial, probably
)Hope, this can help.
Like Meredoth's origins on Mystara or Tsien Chiang (darklord of I'Cath) coming from Kara-Tur, Gregor Zolnik's ties to Birthright were part of an attempt to give every then-established D&D setting -- with the understandable exception of Spelljammer, which was frankly just too silly -- a token darklord.
Rather, it's more accurate to say that Ravenloft's Vorostokov and Birthright's Vos culture were BOTH loosely inspired by Russian culture (probably as much by how it's portrayed in literature as IRL), during a Dark Ages-style era of primitivism and hardship. When the DoD writers decided to give each D&D world a darklordly "ambassador", the two realms seemed similar enough to excuse their giving Gregor Zolnik an Azrai blood-transfusion.
Thanks for information, I really don't compare the data, but then I wonder, what part of russian history was reflected in this domain?
8-10 c. - it was not so cold
10-12 c. - it was not so cold and barbaric
13-15 c. - it was under mongol rule... good for Ravenloft, but different from Vorostokov.
etc.
And domain description so precisely fit the Vos... Maybe Vos were designed from Vorostokov?
Idea about historical Russia in Ravenloft is very interesting for me. It's not so easy task!
Ups
Thanks for information, I really don't compare the data, but then I wonder, what part of russian history was reflected in this domain?
8-10 c. - it was not so cold
10-12 c. - it was not so cold and barbaric
13-15 c. - it was under mongol rule... good for Ravenloft, but different from Vorostokov.
I don't think that, even pre-Birthright, the domain was meant to mimic a precise Russian period. Vorostokov may be made from Russian parts, but its an original creation tailored specifically for Ravenloft.
My primary concern, I guess I should clarify, is that Vorostokov seems to me to be portraying Russia without Eastern Orthodoxy, which any student of Russian culture will tell you is folly - Russian culture and the Orthodox Church are inextricably intertwined. Russia's Ravenloft counterpart should be a land of magic, mysticism, and aspirations to match the less-backward nations of the Core in glory.
So I guess that means I'll just have to make my own domain, sadly, but that's fine with me; I've got the time and the motivation.:P
Maybe a historical suppliment along the lines of what TSR did with Greece, and Rome, but perhaps more magical, would be a better idea than another domain in the Demiplane of Dread.
My primary concern, I guess I should clarify, is that Vorostokov seems to me to be portraying Russia without Eastern Orthodoxy, which any student of Russian culture will tell you is folly - Russian culture and the Orthodox Church are inextricably intertwined.
The dearth of a strong, organized religion is really a "Ravenloft thing", IMO, and hardly unique to Vorostokov. Ever since I6, religion in the Land of Mists has been portrayed as less potent an influence on society than in your average D&D campaign -- let alone, in real-life history -- because the damned are, in a sense, the ones running the show. Any faith that threatens to become powerful or pervasive enough to challenge the local darklord's authority invariably suffers "mysterious setbacks", unless that faith is supportive of the darklord's agenda.
My primary concern, I guess I should clarify, is that Vorostokov seems to me to be portraying Russia without Eastern Orthodoxy,
Vorostokov isn't "portraying" Russia in any way. It's Russia-inspired. It deliberately uses Russian names and terrain to establish a mood. It's in no way "Russia's Ravenloft counterpart". Complaining of lack of Orthodox Christian elements in Russia is like complaining of lack of Catholicism in Odiare.
Being part of the Russian Orthodox faith myself, I'd say integrating it (or any real world religion, for that matter) into a simplistic fantasy realm creates more trouble than its worth. Vorostokov works fine as a "god-forsaken" land it is now.
If you want to use a real world religion, go ahead. It's a game as long as people are mature and have no doubt that it's nothing but make believe, it's not a problem. In fact, using real world concepts is a boon. It makes the role-playing more interesting.
Create your ortodox christian Russia inspired domain. Have fun...
He'll I created many new domains based on real world cultures. The best thing about it was that it in no way made any of the cannon domains any worst. In fact it made them more fun as they interacted with new people and their Darklords met the new kids in town...
Here's a sample
a babylonian domain ( island of terror)
a Ming dynasty inspired domain ( joined the Rokushina Tayoo domain to became a cluster and later joined the core on the other side of the sea of sorrows)
a aztec inspired domain.
Me what I like is making the core grow bigger and bigger
( I had Souragne, Rokushina Tayoo and the Wild Lands join the core)
You can bet that watching Azalin match wits with Arijani and my Chinese emperor-void disciple called Iyuang Zhu Shin was a blast...
Sorry that's most wise and respected ascended Emperor Iyuang Zhu Sin