Eldaarish Martial Arts
I'd like to clarify that I am neither an expert nor a fan of martial arts. The only martial arts movies I've watched are the holywood Jacki Chan movies, and I watch them because they are funny. I respect martial arts, mind you. My oldest son is taking Karate lessons, and I think that's great since he likes it. But if my Eldaarich project results in people in Tyr calling each other "young grasshopper," I'll cry.
I wasn't looking for an excuse to put martial arts into Eldaarich. My specialty here is history and cultural development, and I see martial arts as a structure that emanates from certain cultural situations. I begged others to write martial arts feats, because I'm not qualified either in terms of 3.5 mechanics nor in terms of knowing about the martial arts themselves. If anyone sees something innacurate about what I'm saying about martial arts, please correct me. There are certain topics where I really know my stuff. Martial arts are not one of those areas. The issue about Okinawa and the development of Karate, fascinates me because it shows how politics and bad government create certain voids, and how something always steps in to fill the void. The state oppresses people in a particular way, and the people respond in interesting but predictable ways.
Lurking Shadow wrote:
A small detail: I suggest you drop the "[Name of feat] II" nomenclature, as that's not done. Its either Improved or Greater, not II or III.
Brax, there are no Regional feats in DS3. All such are General feats but have a Regions section.
What I'd *really* like is some way to reflect that these people actually have *never been trained on the use of *ARMOR*.
Some WotC designer said it at one time: D&D is a game of approximation that makes many concessions, at its most basic the idea of rounds and an order of action based on initiative. But these concessions also extend to having to work with the limitations inherent in the game, such as Fighters gaining automatic proficiencies in weapons, armors, and shields.
Its up to the DM to remind a player that hasn't yet taken the feat that removes his proficiencies to not use weapons and armors despite him having proficiencies for them.
Of course the best thing would be to use variant classes and such, but those are generally considered non-OGC.
Brax, are your martial artist feats based on d20's OGC martial artist feats? If not, check them out.
A small detail: I suggest you drop the "[Name of feat] II" nomenclature, as that's not done. Its either Improved or Greater, not II or III.
Thank you. Done.
Brax, there are no Regional feats in DS3. All such are General feats but have a Regions section.
Interesting. My advisor from the Feats bureau told me to label them as Regional feats. Perhaps something has changed.
Some WotC designer said it at one time: D&D is a game of approximation that makes many concessions, at its most basic the idea of rounds and an order of action based on initiative. But these concessions also extend to having to work with the limitations inherent in the game, such as Fighters gaining automatic proficiencies in weapons, armors, and shields.
Its up to the DM to remind a player that hasn't yet taken the feat that removes his proficiencies to not use weapons and armors despite him having proficiencies for them.
Of course the best thing would be to use variant classes and such, but those are generally considered non-OGC.
I'd rather stick to standard classes, but if a feat could patch that, it would help to create the cults I'm describing. If the feat patch isn't acceptable, then that's too bad, but it doesn't kill the story.
Its up to the DM to remind a player that hasn't yet taken the feat that removes his proficiencies to not use weapons and armors despite him having proficiencies for them.
I have not designed the Eldaarish cults with PCs in mind. I don't think that brainwashed devotion to a corrupt powermonger makes the ideal setup for a PC :D For one thing, you wouldn't be adventuring with members not of your cult, or your cult would suspect you. OTOH, I guess there could be a party that was all part of the same cult. Since you mention it, I'll add that to my list of possible 6-7 adventuring scenarios in the Dim Lands.
Did you catch my email, Penn?
Interesting. My advisor from the Feats bureau told me to label them as Regional feats. Perhaps something has changed.
While labeled as General, they do have a Region or Race requirement.
If we can now put regional requirements into general feats, can a general feat require ranks as well as regional preqs?
Thanks!
-brax
OK. What I was told last night was that feats had [Regional] marker but those ones could not have rank or feat requirements.
I can probably clear this up...hee hee.... as we already have several regional feats in the ds3.5 doc. i'm not sure why others would say we don't have them, however it has been my intention to provide a better model of the regional feat rules for ds and have been working on these rules for sometime (albeit with little progress as of late - thanx Meth for the jump start:D ). this has been done with Jon's approval, so I'm not sure why he couldn't explain this
-:P hee hee...suppose i should contact him as it's been a whilebut anyhoo, so your feats are still good with the regional marker, and should still keep with the lack of non-region prereqs...as this is the norm with or without my interpretations of the rules. but hopefully i'll have something to show the public here before too long, so that you can see that your's 'll fit right in.
There are "regional" feats in it, but they just aren't tagged as such.
With the new feats, fighters are *almost* perfect for Eldaarish martial artists.
What I'd *really* like is some way to reflect that these people actually have *never been trained on the use of *ARMOR*.
The cults will have bunches of fighters and psychic warriors, but none of them have ever worn armor. How is it they have so many armor proficiencies and weapon proficiencies?
Could there be some regional feat that actually *takes away* from the class and gives something else? There's precedent for this general concept with the "Vow of Poverty" feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds, but that doesn't actually take away from class benefits. It's the use of the stuff, not ability to use the stuff, that it takes away.
Unequipped Training [Generally Regional;) ]
You had martial arts training at the expense of weapons and armor training.
Prerequisites: Membership in an Eldaarish cult, and 1 level in one of the following classes: Barbarian, Fighter, or Psychic Warrior.
Benefits: You can choose any three bonus martial arts feats that you have the prerequisites for, but you lose Martial weapons proficiency and all of your weapon and shield proficiencies.
Normal: Fighters, Barbarians, and Psychic Warriors start with proficiency in all martial weapons, and also have various armor and shield proficiencies.
You could argue that a Fighter gives up more than a Barbarian, since the fighter has heavy armor proficiency and Tower Shields. But I'd respond that since the fighter has the extra feat already, that getting two more fighter feats gives him *more* benefit than the barbarian gets, since the feats obviously build on each other.
Q:Two extra feats? Doesn't it say three?
A: Yes, it says three, but you had to spend one on Unequipped Training, so that's a net of two extra feats in exchange for all of your armor and shield feats, and all of your martial weapons proficiencies. No more longbow, no more sword, etc. I'm designing this to be a raw deal for any PC taking it, but a good deal for an Eldaarish cultist. Would this feat be an acceptable way to accomplish this?
BTW I love this Eldaarish stuff. Can't wait for the release.
How would I identify Eldaarish Martial arts feats for the rules? Any prerequisite that ties the feat to Eldaarich or to the rest of the dim lands?
I really like the psionic focus idea as well, but don't know how much power that adds to a feat. I'd like to see more feats that require just maintaining the focus, like Speed of Thought.
Improved Total Defense, Stand Your Ground, Unarmed Reactions, Unarmed Reflexes seem like the kind that might require a psionic focus maintenance.
Easy way to make them tied to Eldaarish Martial arts would to be have the innitial feat be a prereq for all the others. That would allow it to stay in that area, and would build it as a feat tree.
For me, I have wanted to see something that ties the feats to the psionic focus for psywars in a way that was an improvement on psionic fist and the like. Some of them are good, but a few extra things would be cool.
Yes adding Psionic Focus to martial artist feats can make them more powerful, but it requires in itself a feat or a power point reserve from having a psionic class.
How would I identify Eldaarish Martial arts feats for the rules? Any prerequisite that ties the feat to Eldaarich or to the rest of the dim lands?
Easy way to make them tied to Eldaarish Martial arts would to be have the innitial feat be a prereq for all the others. That would allow it to stay in that area, and would build it as a feat tree.
Its possible to link General feats, eligable as Fighter bonus feats, to the taking of an initial Regional feat, but such a thing is not recommanded, I think.
Ask confirmation of someone who knows better than I.
Psionic Focus requires you to be psionic, which - in those minimalistic NPCs you are trying to create, Brax - would imply taking the Wild Talent or Hidden Talent feat, which goes against your whole point of trying to get more feat access to Eldaarish people, not less.
Good point. A manifesting NPC class could fill the gap. If we aren't able to get with the classes bureau and *all* come to an agreement as to a manifesting NPC class, then I'll simply fill some martial arts cults with level-1 wilders/Level X warriors.
Yes adding Psionic Focus to martial artist feats can make them more powerful, but it requires in itself a feat or a power point reserve from having a psionic class.
Wish I could get metrics. It seems that a regular feat can give someone a +3 to one skill continually, for any purpose, or +4 for a specific purpose (right?). A focus-breaking feat gives someone a +10, for any purpose. So a focus-maintaining feat might give someone something in more than +3 and less than +10, but probably more on the +3 side, like +4 and +5?
I'm not trying to create some massive martial arts system, just trying to show at least 3 different cult styles, and imply there are more out there. Nothing overly powerful, but enough to raise an eyebrow.
Now that I know how I can use NPC classes to level cultists into position, I have:
1. A soulknife PrC that's mostly been eradicated since the Psionic purge, although some have escaped the dim lands.
2. A Psionic Monk PrC
3. Cuurnu, which might end up a PrC but probably will just remain a feat chain.
4. Tsao Gunt's cult, with his feat chain.
Note that not all Eldaarish cults involve martial arts. There are entertainment cults, drug cults, at least one tiny elemental cult. Most cult leaders are sell-outs under the protection of Daskinor's Haleban Order. For example:
Ironthroat was once considered the most dangerous cult leader in Eldaarich. Born Ilek Bakraz, the son of a top-ranking Haleban templar, Ironthroat ran away from home and became a popular entertainer among Eldaarich’s criminals and outcasts, gaining his nickname for his powerful raspy voice and his uncanny ability to match the rhythm of his poetry to the shifting beat of the hearbeat drums. Ironthroat’s rage-filled poetry glorified crime and killing, and he capitalized on an unsubstantiated rumor that Ironthroat had once killed a Red Guard. The Red Guards repeatedly broke up his performances in an attempt to capture him. These facts should have kept everyone away from Ironthroat’s performances out of a sense of self-preservation, but instead they galvanized his popularity.
Then, to almost everyone’s surprise, Ironthroat shifted the direction of his anger to unspecified enemies of Eldaarich. His cult following began to work on Haleban construction projects, and the Red Guards stopped trying to capture him, although they continue to disrupt his performances when they become too boisterous and energetic. The Red Guards still hate Ironthroat as much as ever, but they are forbidden to harm him in any way: Ironthroat has joined the Haleban order.
Its possible to link General feats, eligable as Fighter bonus feats, to the taking of an initial Regional feat, but such a thing is not recommended, I think.
I did that with some of them, I think. Tied them to "Paranoid."
You might think about such drugs for Eldaarich. We have esperweed as a drug (instead of just a plant in DS3), and a more powerful version called refined esperweed, which boost a lot your innate psionic abilities. So maybe that specific Eldaarish cult of yours which has psionics as a theme could take a drug that gives you the use of one or more psionic powers (think of the XPH spell mental pinnacle).
In your first post about Eldaarich, I mentioned that I also had an intense interest in the area, and I said I would like to help out (I also pointed you towards some of my posts about Eldaarich as well). You never responded, but perhaps you just never saw what I wrote.
Anyways, the offer is still standing. If you need any help, especially with Eldaarish martial arts, I'd be more than willing to help out.
I am not so well versed in the 3.5 rules (I'm a hold-over from the original 2nd edition days), but I could definitely help develop various martial styles in Eldaarich. I consider myself a bit of an expert on the topic with first-hand knowledge of how various martial arts work in real-life situations.
As far as Eldaarich is concerned (I mentioned this in an earlier thread), I would like to stay away from the "Oriental Commie meance" stereotypes as much as possible. I never really cared for the term "Red Guard," (preferring the alternate "Neshtap" instead) because it is the exact term for Mao's militant vanguard during the cultural revolution. The totalitarian regime with an insane leader is a great idea, but once you have him "starving his own people," you can come dangerously close to making Eldaarich a "Dark Sun North Korea."
I don't bring up these issues for the sake of simply being "PC." The "Yellow Peril" is such a tired, stereotypical idea and I think that there are so many more interesting and engaging things we can do outside of it.
I haven't looked at your material at all (save for what you posted on here), so I have no idea whether it does or doesn't rearticulate these notions. However, martial arts, the political climate, and even some of the terminology ("Tsao" is probably unreversibly associated with "General Tsao's Chicken") harken towards "the Orient," and I would like to pull the flavor of Eldaarich decisively back towards "Athas."
In regards to martial arts and unarmed combat, the feats you listed are a good, basic start, but I'd like to make some other suggestions. First, martial arts are often associated with various Asian forms of self-defense, or, more often martial arts movies. While there is nothing wrong with this, I think that martial arts in Eldaarich would be less flowery and spectacular, and more gritty and brutal.
First, I imagined that all martial arts forms in Eldaarich are based on the rhythm of the Heartbeat Drums. If you have ever seen "Taekkyeon" (an old Korean precursor to Tae Kwon Do) or "Capoeira," then you will have seen "rhythm martial arts." Especially in the case of "Capoeira" (I might be misspelling the term) the martial art was diguised as a dance in order to conceal it's true nature from Brazillian slave masters.
The rhythmic movements help MAists (Martial Artists) to develop timing, rhythm, and fluid continuous motion. I can envision this as the basis for Eldaarish martial arts.
Next, I can see Elaarish MA's being perceived as brutal and graceless, however, a trained eye would see a method to their mayhem. Strikes would be fast, and unexpected. Seemingly untrained "haymakers" would actually be highly refined punches which maximized energy transfer from the ground to the fist. The Eldaarish would be experts at using their their body's hardest surfaces (elbows, knees and head) against opponents. They would also be masters at improvised weapons and fighting dirty.
Different groups could have different strategies and styles. One style would be low to the ground, and would involve dodging the blows of a weapon until the opponent could be grappled (a range which makes all but the shortest of weapons useless.) Another style could specialize in the use of the "mouth razor" -a sharpened piece of obsidian carried concealed under the tongue (in an instant, the razor can be brandished and used to cut arteries.) Others could specialize in the use of garrotes, saps, or even small fist-sized stones. One group could adorn themselves with rings on ever finger -improvised "brass knuckles" for Athas.
My ideas for feats would include (I'll let others iron out the exact mechanics and bonuses for each feat):
Defensive Environment: The practioner knows how to maximize the enviroment to his / her advantage during fighting -i.e. the user positions himself / herself with his back to the sun / to a door, stands next to an obstacle which will not allow for right-handed attacks (but allows them to attack right-handed), takes higher ground, etc. This benefit can only be utilized when the user consciously selects where a battle will take place (i.e. no bonuses if the user is ambushed, or if another initiates the attack.)
Surprise Attack: The practioner is skilled at innocuously closing to striking range and making the first strike. This attack can only be used as the very first attack of a combat encounter.
Goad: The practioner is particularly skilled at drawing out an attack which will leave an attacker vunerable. Alhtough the user may look defenseless, he or she is prepared to defend and instantaneously counter-attack. This skill can be used to initiate combat or it may even be used after combat has ensued.
Strategic Retreat: The practioner is skilled at luring his attackers to chase him, only to launch a Suprise Attack from a Defensive Environment. Bonuses from both skills are combined during a strategic retreat.
Roll: This is not a "roll" in the sense of "tumbling." It means that the practitioner is highly skilled at twisting and turning his or her body with the impact of a blow in order to safely minimize damage. Against a highly skilled opponent, attackers will find their offense rendered impotent as defenders twist, bend, lower, and gently absorb each of their blows.
These are just some ideas off the top of my head. I can add more if you are interested.
itf
Brax, me and Meth thought it a great idea to invent drugs that do incredible things. Examples: a drug that allows the taker to create a mindscape and through it contact the dead in the Gray (but which also allows undead on the mindscape's fringe from luring the taker over the edge to his death), and another drug taken by Draji warriors during the Flowers Festival (hope I get this right) and which turns them into fighting machines while killing them in a few days.
You might think about such drugs for Eldaarich. We have esperweed as a drug (instead of just a plant in DS3), and a more powerful version called refined esperweed, which boost a lot your innate psionic abilities. So maybe that specific Eldaarish cult of yours which has psionics as a theme could take a drug that gives you the use of one or more psionic powers (think of the XPH spell mental pinnacle).
Did I forget to tell you that your mindscape drug was one of the coolest story ideas that I've seen? That one blew me away.
I'd thought of experweed extract that would have the benefit of not losing potency past 1 week. Great minds think alike, I guess. I like your version better than mine anyway.
I'm the one that wrote that description, and suggested pitching the Barbarian as a brute. What's done is done, I guess. If I'd known then that people would say that city-brutes should be warriors, then I'd never have written that description or agreed to bring in the Barbarian class.
I very much liked the addition of the Brute/Barbarian class to DS. Among several other benefits, it backed up with rules the type of character that relies on rage and brute force for combat. It makes the development of PCs and NPCs more flavorful, and stimulates roleplaying.
Also, just because most city brutes and other unskilled combatants are Warriors, that doesn’t preclude the use of the Barbarian. A more competent street tough could be Warrior2/Barbarian1; an escaped artisan slave that joined a slave tribe could be Expert1/Barbarian1.
My point is to create distinctive forms of martial arts that are unique to Eldaarich. I'm telling a story; not trying to build a bigger better King Kong.
Neither am I. Like it or not, rules play an important role in roleplaying and storytelling, and I find that alternative approaches to psi-monks aren’t truly up to satisfaction in that regard.
The point behind my tirade is that no alternative approaches are really needed, since unarmed combatants are already contemplated, rather elegantly, by the most basic book of D&D, the Players Handbook. All the Monk class needs is a little amendment of the fluff.
With the new feats, fighters are *almost* perfect for Eldaarish martial artists.
The new feats are interesting and helpful. There many ways of dealing with the matter and, as I said before, this one is perfectly valid.
But these are cults of personality. Your vow of poverty means that you give everything to your teacher, and your vow of obedience means you look the other way while your sensei does your wife. Eldaarish cults are more like Jim Jones than Mr. Miyagi. In a word, this is Eldaarich.
Agh. I can live with the Athasian martial artists being fighters with appropriate feats, but please, do not equate all real world martial artists with Mr. Myiagi. Historical monks were just as fallible as anyone else and oftentimes did shocking things, including the Jim Jones stuff you mentioned. Other martial artist types were/are rather heterogeneous, and many studied combat techniques not for spiritual purposes but for mundane ones, such as wealth, fame, vengeance or survival.
If a Tyrian gladiator turns out able to kick an Eldaarish Cuurnu master to bits, I honestly don't care.
Well, it’s really your call, but balance is an important characteristic of 3.5ed, and oppressed, exotic Eldaarish people can be quite atractive to players and DMs both. One of my friends insisted on playing a deserter from the Red Guard after finding out about Eldaarich. One of the highlights of the game has been his paranoia about Daskinor coming after him, and his caracter’s reticence of talking about the horrors of his past.
From another thread:
I doubt it, unless the Boxer rebellion lasted dozens of years. More likely they assimilated, renamed, combined, and disseminated teachings from existing martial arts.
Yes, that’s what I meant by creating martial arts styles. Many famous martial artists developed new styles singlehandedly, but they were all masters of other styles when they did so. Bruce Lee was one such example.
However, martial arts, the political climate, and even some of the terminology ("Tsao" is probably unreversibly associated with "General Tsao's Chicken") harken towards "the Orient," and I would like to pull the flavor of Eldaarich decisively back towards "Athas."
Asian elements are a strong part of the background of several Athasian cultures, as Brax has pointed out in another thread.
But incorporating Asian elements into Eldaarich’s culture is certainly not mandatory.
Especially in the case of "Capoeira" (I might be misspelling the term) the martial art was diguised as a dance in order to conceal it's true nature from Brazillian slave masters.
Capoeira is an excellent match for Cuurnu, IMHO: the oppression of African slaves was as vile as anything on Athas.
While there is nothing wrong with this, I think that martial arts in Eldaarich would be less flowery and spectacular, and more gritty and brutal.
Well... Capoeira moves are actually rather acrobatic and artistic. Among other reasons, that was meant to keep the practicioners in shape, to help feinting and surprising opponents, and to reinforce the facade of dance when training while being watched by the slave masters.
Brax,
In your first post about Eldaarich, I mentioned that I also had an intense interest in the area, and I said I would like to help out (I also pointed you towards some of my posts about Eldaarich as well). You never responded, but perhaps you just never saw what I wrote. Anyways, the offer is still standing. If you need any help, especially with Eldaarish martial arts, I'd be more than willing to help out.
IIRC I responded by starting that "audition" thread, but maybe it got lost with the move. Anyway, check your PM.
As far as Eldaarich is concerned (I mentioned this in an earlier thread), I would like to stay away from the "Oriental Commie meance" stereotypes as much as possible. I never really cared for the term "Red Guard," (preferring the alternate "Neshtap" instead) because it is the exact term for Mao's militant vanguard during the cultural revolution. The totalitarian regime with an insane leader is a great idea, but once you have him "starving his own people," you can come dangerously close to making Eldaarich a "Dark Sun North Korea."
I understand your concern, but it's the WC that said he's starving his own people. And "Red Guard" is official now for 3 yrs with Wisdom of the Drylanders; we're not going to set a precedent of being inconsistent in order to be sensitive, or even to avoid a stereotype.
I will change Gunt's first name, though, since you say it sounds Chinese. Eldaarish should not sound Chinese. The similarity to China with the pictographs is strong enough already ... Kurn and Eldaarich both use the same pictographic language; Kurnans actually learned this writing from escaped Eldaarish. How's "Oma Gunt" Non-Asian enough?
I would like to pull the flavor of Eldaarich decisively back towards "Athas."
You might reread what I've posted here. Eldaarich does draw considerable influence from Asia (Okinawa-like history of martial arts, pictographic writing), but City-State of Nibenay has a *lot* more asian influence than Eldaarich. And I've never heard anyone say that Nibenay needed its flavor pulled back to "athas."
Eldaarich and Kurn are more different from the 7 cities than the 7 cities are from each other. That's clear in the WC. Now it's more like the 7 cities than, say, the Forest Ridge, or Thamasku, or Saragar, but it is distinct, culturally, politically, economically.
This is no "yellow menace" piece. But my family lived in Shanghai for 5 years; I have Cantonese in-laws, and if you think that anyone could write a description of the ultimate totalitarian state without drawing some inspiration from the cultural revolution leader that kept her enemies body parts in a pickle jar ... hey, all I did was animate the parts, and voila, "Talking Head." Nothing particularly Asian about it. In Uganda, old Idi Amin kept his old enemies' heads in a refrigerator, but I think that you'll agree that refrigeration seems less "Athasian" than pickling. :D
In regards to martial arts and unarmed combat, the feats you listed are a good, basic start, but I'd like to make some other suggestions. First, martial arts are often associated with various Asian forms of self-defense, or, more often martial arts movies. While there is nothing wrong with this, I think that martial arts in Eldaarich would be less flowery and spectacular, and more gritty and brutal.
I agree, although I haven't really watched enough martial arts movies to be sure what I'm ruling out. Gritty and brutal is good. But Flip persuaded me that my "Strangler" feat, while balanced, would be very unpopular with players that got finished off as cleave-like bonus action once they were subdued in unarmed combat.
First, I imagined that all martial arts forms in Eldaarich are based on the rhythm of the Heartbeat Drums.
Cuurnu (Serenity) is based on the Heartbeat Drums, and that's the most popular one. I suppose that there might be different branches or flavors of Cuurnu.
If you have ever seen "Taekkyeon" (an old Korean precursor to Tae Kwon Do) or "Capoeira," then you will have seen "rhythm martial arts."
Really? Wow. Looks like I blundered into something good!
Especially in the case of "Capoeira" (I might be misspelling the term) the martial art was diguised as a dance in order to conceal it's true nature from Brazillian slave masters.
OK, now that's so close to what I wrote that it's depressing. Man, try to have an original thought these days :D
The rhythmic movements help MAists (Martial Artists) to develop timing, rhythm, and fluid continuous motion. I can envision this as the basis for Eldaarish martial arts.
That's the bright side. But note that would require bringing in more Asian stuff...
Next, I can see Elaarish MA's being perceived as brutal and graceless, however, a trained eye would see a method to their mayhem. Strikes would be fast, and unexpected. Seemingly untrained "haymakers" would actually be highly refined punches which maximized energy transfer from the ground to the fist. The Eldaarish would be experts at using their their body's hardest surfaces (elbows, knees and head) against opponents. They would also be masters at improvised weapons and fighting dirty.
Absolutely. But I'm not wanting to parse out physical details, or make combat more complicated than the base stuff in the 3e rules. Otherwise we really do change the flavor of Dark Sun towards some martial arts movie. It's very important to me that every feat use actual 3.5 PHB mechanics.
Different groups could have different strategies and styles. One style would be low to the ground, and would involve dodging the blows of a weapon until the opponent could be grappled (a range which makes all but the shortest of weapons useless.) Another style could specialize in the use of the "mouth razor" -a sharpened piece of obsidian carried concealed under the tongue (in an instant, the razor can be brandished and used to cut arteries.) Others could specialize in the use of garrotes, saps, or even small fist-sized stones. One group could adorn themselves with rings on ever finger -improvised "brass knuckles" for Athas.
Maybe. Just remember, though -- slaves here are naked. And once one of those razors pops up, you're going to see random mouth checks. (That's based on a RL country too, and it's not an Asian one ...)
My ideas for feats would include (I'll let others iron out the exact mechanics and bonuses for each feat):
Defensive Environment: The practioner knows how to maximize the enviroment to his / her advantage during fighting -i.e. the user positions himself / herself with his back to the sun / to a door, stands next to an obstacle which will not allow for right-handed attacks (but allows them to attack right-handed), takes higher ground, etc. This benefit can only be utilized when the user consciously selects where a battle will take place (i.e. no bonuses if the user is ambushed, or if another initiates the attack.)
Sounds good.
Goad: The practioner is particularly skilled at drawing out an attack which will leave an attacker vunerable. Alhtough the user may look defenseless, he or she is prepared to defend and instantaneously counter-attack. This skill can be used to initiate combat or it may even be used after combat has ensued.
Strategic Retreat: The practioner is skilled at luring his attackers to chase him, only to launch a Suprise Attack from a Defensive Environment. Bonuses from both skills are combined during a strategic retreat.
Both of these looks like one of the chains that I described here. The classic one guy against 360 degree attacks, like Prodigy described for the Master Peddlers. Not sure how to distinguish them ...
Surprise Attack: The practioner is skilled at innocuously closing to striking range and making the first strike. This attack can only be used as the very first attack of a combat encounter.
This would be the opposite chain. I was looking for something to base on someone having a speed of 40 or higher, and that might be it.
Roll: This is not a "roll" in the sense of "tumbling." It means that the practitioner is highly skilled at twisting and turning his or her body with the impact of a blow in order to safely minimize damage. Against a highly skilled opponent, attackers will find their offense rendered impotent as defenders twist, bend, lower, and gently absorb each of their blows.
Ah. Had not thought of that. Very original.
Sure. I think we have goad and strategic retreat covered (correct me if I'm wrong from the feats you see). Take Roll, Defensive Environment, and Surprise attack, and work out feats through the appropriate bureaus. I'm no 3.5 genius either; I get lots of handholding on these ideas from Flip, Jon, Squidfur, Jan, Pennarin, Bruno, Yanick ... wow, I never realized until I listed them out like that just how many people I'm constantly badgering for 3.5 help. :D I know I've missed some, too. If we can add 2-3 pages of feats that add variation to combat, & distinguish the cults without adding complexit
What minimum prereqs would you create for a feat that allows you to attack in a whirlwind attack pattern, except as a trip attack, say, using a spear or somesuch?
Would that be less or more than the PHB feat, whirlwind attack?
What about something that worked like cleave, except involved knocking a chain of people down like dominos. E.g. on a successful trip, you get to make another roll to see if you knocked the person down to effectively trip the next person, etc. :D
But by our own policies, I should not assume the DM has any books other than core stuff.
If goad is from non-OGC sources, we probably shouldn't duplicate it.
Regions: Regional feats are feats that require that a character belongs to a certain culture, either a race or a specified area. The exact
requirements for belonging to a culture are for the DM to decide, but a suggested minimum requirement is that a character lives with and is
exposed to a culture for at least five years. Note that a character can only take onesingle regional feat. This is because most regional feats are
more powerful when compared to other feats.
This is an excerpt from Dark Sun Core Rules R6, which should effectively kill any doubts concerning whether our feats are regional feats or not, regardless of what their tag is.
If a feat or chain exists, I could suggest using certain feats from a non OGC source to flesh out certain cults, just as Terrors of Athas points to other source books.
But by our own policies, I should not assume the DM has any books other than core stuff.
If goad is from non-OGC sources, we probably shouldn't duplicate it.
Oh if you read again what I wrote you'll see I made no judgement, only commented on what i saw. Goad as a feat name is already used, and apprently the mechanic is similar to the actual goad feat or another feat. Does this mean its copyright infringment? Perhaps not if the feat was developped without looking at a WotC book.
In any case, if one asks my opinion as a neophyte in the feats department, and without any legal backing from the athas.org organization, I think those feats that were proposed could still be kept if they were designed so as to be different at least in part to the actual WotC feats they are similar to.
This is an excerpt from Dark Sun Core Rules R6, which should effectively kill any doubts concerning whether our feats are regional feats or not, regardless of what their tag is.
What I said is There are "regional" feats in it [DS3], but they just aren't tagged as such. As comments go, that one looks pretty clear to me :PThanks for taking time out to respond to my post. I am glad that some of the ideas interested you.
I am not trying to suggest that we "recall" anything hinting of "Asia" in Eldaarich because we could potentially offend someone. Like I said, I don't know exactly how you have fleshed out Eldaarich, so I can't say if it is "too Yellow Peril," or if it is "very Athas" or not. However, there are a lot of strong Asian-ish elements which could create a slippery slope of Eldaarich becoming "that Asian city in Athas". Your mention of Nibeney is great because I think that is a city that definitely has some Asian elements, but they are so well concealed and integrated into the Athasian milleu, it is hard to identify exactly what is "Asian" vs. "Athasian" or even define exactly which Asian cultures served as an influence in the city (was it Khmer or Indian? Both?)
So I am just saying, lets be careful as far as the readily identifiable "Asian" elements of Eldaarich are concerned. For example, both Eldaarich and China use ideograms, but Eldaarich's ideograms look nothing like China's (from what I saw in "Wisdom of the Drylanders.") I thought that this was very well done.
When it comes to martial arts, I feel the same way. Let's stay away from the Bruce Lee / Jackie Chan / Jean Claude Van Damme stuff, and make something uniquely "Athasian."
Lurking Shadow is right on about the acrobatic nature of Capoeira. However, it does look and feel totally different from Asian martial arts. Also different forms of Capoeira are different -some actually called for the use of razors, and the art gained some infamy as a "razor-fighting" art. People have debated about whether or not some capoeira techniques were developed because the slaves had their hands bound (specifically techniques which involved standing on you hands and kicking with your feet) -however, in Athas we are not so limited by historical reality and we can plunder any ideas we want for Athas.
If I were to coin a short descriptive term for Eldaarish martial arts, I would put them closer to "rhythm Krav Maga" as opposed to "rhythmic Wushu."
Brax, your idea for the "strangle" feat sounds great! I'd like to see it. People who watched the first Ultimate Fighting Championship (a competition which pitted people from all kinds of MA styles against each other in a very limited rules competition) were extremely disappointed to see some small skinny Brazillian choke out all of these "dangerous" and talented strikers. If a combatant can avoid getting sliced to ribbons and latch onto an opponent, a strangle feat sounds very viable. (Not to be contrary towards Flip.)
Penn, thanks for the info on the "goad" feat. I don't have the book you referred to. When I was thinking of this feet for an Eldaarish, I imagined as slaves, they would be able to feign complete vunerability in addition to taunting and riling their opponents. I think that this would be an ability that Eldaarish could use anytime during combat, as opposed to an ability that you could only use before combat is initiated.
I am not sure if this is different from the feat you talked about at all, but that was just my thought.
Brax, your info on Eldaarich sounds very good. I am excited to see what's next.
itf
Brax,
When it comes to martial arts, I feel the same way. Let's stay away from the Bruce Lee / Jackie Chan / Jean Claude Van Damme stuff, and make something uniquely "Athasian."
Lurking Shadow is right on about the acrobatic nature of Capoeira. However, it does look and feel totally different from Asian martial arts.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Isreali military had a form of martial arts that was different as well. And there are western forms from the middle ages that have been lost, and are being rediscovered by reinactors and archeologists.
Lurking Shadow is right on about the acrobatic nature of Capoeira. However, it does look and feel totally different from Asian martial arts.
Many Asian martial arts differ wildly from each other as well. Asia is a large and heterogeneous place.
Some Asian styles are actually quite brutal and pragmatic.
Indeed, what is seen in films is a flowery exaggeration of real life martial arts: it's meant to look good, so the artistic/bigger-than-life aspects are emphasized to the detriment of actual effectiveness and believability. Real life Kung Fu, Karate, etc. are a lot more down-to-earth than Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or Matrix would suggest.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Isreali military had a form of martial arts that was different as well.
That would be Krav Maga, which I believe ITF mentioned above.
And there are western forms from the middle ages that have been lost, and are being rediscovered by reinactors and archeologists.
There's Pancratium and other Greek unarmed combat styles that were later adopted by the Romans.
They were used by Alexander the Great's troops, and were common in Roman gladiator fights. (I figure something of the sort must also be common in Balic.)
People usually associate martial arts with Asia, but there's plenty of Western unarmed combat styles.
Brax,
Thanks for taking time out to respond to my post. I am glad that some of the ideas interested you.
I am not trying to suggest that we "recall" anything hinting of "Asia" in Eldaarich because we could potentially offend someone. Like I said, I don't know exactly how you have fleshed out Eldaarich, so I can't say if it is "too Yellow Peril," or if it is "very Athas" or not. However, there are a lot of strong Asian-ish elements which could create a slippery slope of Eldaarich becoming "that Asian city in Athas". Your mention of Nibeney is great because I think that is a city that definitely has some Asian elements, but they are so well concealed and integrated into the Athasian milleu, it is hard to identify exactly what is "Asian" vs. "Athasian" or even define exactly which Asian cultures served as an influence in the city (was it Khmer or Indian? Both?)
Seriously? Thai, Thai, and more Thai. The names were Thai. The architecture was Thai. "Nagarakam," "Seimhouk," etc. are blatantly Thai in sound and structure. The primary crop is rice. The clothing is Thai. A King with a pile of young wives ... hell, you half expect King Nibenay to burst into song, a la "The King and I." :D
Don't get me wrong, I like Nibenay. I also think it's proof positive that "real asia" (rather than Hollywood "asia") is perfectly compatible with Dark Sun. I've used some elements of Asia in Eldaarich and also in Kurn, and to a lesser extent in the Trembling Plains, because I didn't want to rely on any one culture, and wanted to diversify, mixing up cultural elements from different continents.
So I am just saying, lets be careful as far as the readily identifiable "Asian" elements of Eldaarich are concerned. For example, both Eldaarich and China use ideograms, but Eldaarich's ideograms look nothing like China's (from what I saw in "Wisdom of the Drylanders.") I thought that this was very well done.
Thanks! I'm looking for people who can help me prepare more ideograms. So far the best ones I've seen looked about 40% Fremont Pictograph (like the sort you'd find in Southern Utah), about 30% egyptian hieroglyphic, and 30% Korean.
From what you said about Nibenay, I take it that by "readily indentifiable" that you mostly mean movie stereotypes. I strongly agree that we should generally stay away from martial arts that duplicate stuff from Asian movies. Guess I'd better toss the flying kick.
Here's an idea. What about a feat like this:
Psionic Surprise [Psionic]
Your psionic melee tactics take opponents by surprise
Prereqs: Bluff 4 ranks, either Up the Walls or Psionic Charge
Benefits: Whenever you use either Up the Walls or Psionic Charge prior to an attack, your enemy is denied his dexterity bonus if your bluff check succeeds against his Sense Motive. Suprise attack bonus damage also apply any, if you have the surprise class attack ability.
OK, here's a really weird one.
Psionic Discharge
In a panic, your body discharges a slippery sweat that helps you escape.
Prerequisites: Psionic Focus
Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus (see the Concentration skill description, page 37 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook). You gain a +10 bonus on one escape artist check. Alternately, you can gain +10 to any grapple check, but applied exclusively to your escaping from being held.
When it comes to martial arts, I feel the same way. Let's stay away from the Bruce Lee / Jackie Chan / Jean Claude Van Damme stuff, and make something uniquely "Athasian."
Actually I did borrow one thing from Jackie Chan: his ability to turn anything into a weapon. I have to admit that was one inspiration for Cuurnu -- the aspect of the villagers practicing martial arts with common tools and objects such as a bucket. But I don't think that's exactly a stereotypically Asian tactic.
Lurking Shadow is right on about the acrobatic nature of Capoeira. However, it does look and feel totally different from Asian martial arts. Also different forms of Capoeira are different -some actually called for the use of razors, and the art gained some infamy as a "razor-fighting" art. People have debated about whether or not some capoeira techniques were developed because the slaves had their hands bound (specifically techniques which involved standing on you hands and kicking with your feet) -however, in Athas we are not so limited by historical reality and we can plunder any ideas we want for Athas.
If I were to coin a short descriptive term for Eldaarish martial arts, I would put them closer to "rhythm Krav Maga" as opposed to "rhythmic Wushu."
Brax, your idea for the "strangle" feat sounds great! I'd like to see it. People who watched the first Ultimate Fighting Championship (a competition which pitted people from all kinds of MA styles against each other in a very limited rules competition) were extremely disappointed to see some small skinny Brazillian choke out all of these "dangerous" and talented strikers. If a combatant can avoid getting sliced to ribbons and latch onto an opponent, a strangle feat sounds very viable. (Not to be contrary towards Flip.)
Penn, thanks for the info on the "goad" feat. I don't have the book you referred to. When I was thinking of this feet for an Eldaarish, I imagined as slaves, they would be able to feign complete vunerability in addition to taunting and riling their opponents. I think that this would be an ability that Eldaarish could use anytime during combat, as opposed to an ability that you could only use before combat is initiated.
I am not sure if this is different from the feat you talked about at all, but that was just my thought.
I haven't seen it at all -- someone above on this thread mentioned it. I don't know about the feat.
More info on Eldaarich that might help some folks get a picture of how a fight might start.
Selling any kind of weapons or FOOD in Eldaarich is an enslavable offense. Eldaarich strictly rations food and water. The Takrits order distributes these from various posts in the city, getting people's name-stamps along with their ceramic bits in exchange for bread, water and meat (see below).
(At 1 year old every citizen receives brands on their fingertips, giving them a name. Each name is supposedly unique. In fact, a few of the branding irons (being literally made of iron) have been stolen by templars over the years, to the point where even with Eldaarich's reduced population, they cycle through name combinations every 77 years or so. Any person who lives beyond 77 years is expected to kill themselves for the convenience of the state since the Takrits can't reasonably be expected to keep track of two people with the same name. Some hungry elderly people have taken the contrary tactic, arranging to have their baby "name usurper" strangled.)
Rather than running a messy butcher shop, the Takrits prefer when possible to distribute "meat" on the hoof -- actually living ssygra and other small herd animals. A few resourceful Eldaarish have taken to trying to fatten the animals up, or even to breed them, although the latter is illegal. ("Those not content to live by the King's hand must die by the king's boot.") There are actually some adequate undefiled grazing ground, particularly around ruined and abandoned areas in the city. Obviously, taking your small herd out for a graze is not particularly safe in a city full of very hungry people. Particularly with urban cannibalism so rampant.
itf