So anyways to fix my problems, I've just let one of my players take the Knight class and I figure I can just determine at which points he can petition to become a member of each Order. What I could use help with is, at which levels should each Order be available?
The excerpts from the PHB II has the rules for the Knight so here they are, if you dont have the PHB II
Cheers,
Cam
So I've started a new campaign and I never understood why the PrC for the KoS includes spellcasting progressions, as nothing I ever saw in the novels would support this. It seemed more like a hold over from trying to make the KoS into Krynn's paladins.
So anyways to fix my problems, I've just let one of my players take the Knight class and I figure I can just determine at which points he can petition to become a member of each Order. What I could use help with is, at which levels should each Order be available?
So I've started a new campaign and I never understood why the PrC for the KoS includes spellcasting progressions, as nothing I ever saw in the novels would support this.
I never understood why the authors didn't include spellcasting knights in the novels since it was in the gaming material. :D
Sword Knights casted spells in Dragons of Summer Flame, by the way. ;)
Basically, there is now a suborder of the Sword Knights called Clerists. Most Sword Knights don't case divine spells. The Clerists are Sword Knights who gain divine power from Kiri-Jolith. I think this is a good solution that allows for both options.
On top of that, the Solamnic Auxiliary Mages are now known as the Kingfishers.
Pretty cool, huh?
Sword Knights casted spells in Dragons of Summer Flame, by the way. ;)
They did the equivalent of laying on hands, which may have been spellcasting or it could have been the paladin ability.
Cheers,
Cam
I personally like spellcasting knights myself and dislike the way they're doing it in Knights of Ansalon. It makes it so you don't have to take levels in Crown Knight to go to Sword Knight, etc. I prefer the system in the core book. If you've got a character advancing into Sword Knight during a time where there are no gods (either Age of Despair or Age of Mortals) and they're not using the power of the heart, then just ramp up the combat capabilities to counter balance the loss of spellcasting (d10 HD and fighter BAB).
-X
I personally like spellcasting knights myself and dislike the way they're doing it in Knights of Ansalon. It makes it so you don't have to take levels in Crown Knight to go to Sword Knight, etc. I prefer the system in the core book.
Luckily, you can still use the system in the core book.
I'm not a fan of the prestige class level stacking. One of the aims of the revised versions in Knightly Orders was to eliminate messy character stat blocks and go for what the original intent was for the Solamnic Knights, which was that you stayed as a novice/initiate/etc in an Order until you either moved on to the next Order or committed to the one you were in. We didn't see any need to require taking prestige class levels for what amounted to an in-character roleplaying exercise. The PrCs are for those who have settled in their Orders, not those who are passing through.
Cheers,
Cam
I do wish that the Knights of Neraka had been redone in that way as well.
They always were that way.
Flash forward to today, I've been looking at the d20 DL line. I don't have Knightly Orders of Ansalon (yet?), but I read the Knights of Solamnia classes in Dragonlance Campaign Setting and the variant rules in the War of the Lance supplement, and I definitely decided I liked the "The Knighthood After the Cataclysm" variant from WOTL which has them not using magic the best. I'm sure KOOA does it better. Regards.
In fact, most characters in DL in those days were just Fighters, and their uniqueness was not derived from gaming stats.
To be fair, most characters in D&D in those days were just fighters.
Also, I think the fact that some characters could never advance beyond the mid-level range of their class, such as Laurana, really brought home the problem of the system at the time. While it's noble to think of the Golden General being who she was for her placement in history rather than her 4 or 5 levels in the fighter class (she was an elf, AND female - the classic AD&D glass ceiling) I don't think this kind of thing holds much water now.Cheers,
Cam
...and I definitely decided I liked the "The Knighthood After the Cataclysm" variant from WOTL which has them not using magic the best. I'm sure KOOA does it better. Regards.
The WotL variant reminds me a lot of the old Tales of the Lance progression for knights. That was a definite improvement over the DLCS. A little multiclassing with cleric, and your Sword Knight could effectively be a Clerist.
The Clerist role, IMO, is a GREAT fix to the question of whether Sword Knights casted spells or not. Answer - some don't, some do. Now we can have it both ways.
To be fair, most characters in D&D in those days were just fighters.
The AD&D Players Handbook alone had 11 classes. My own AD&D campaign has 1 Assassin, 2 Clerics, 1 Druid, 1 Fighter, 1 Magic-User, 1 Monk, and 1 Ranger, and I imagine that to be pretty typical. So DL was definitely simplified in that respect, almost conforming to Basic D&D sensibilities, I'd say.
Also, I think the fact that some characters could never advance beyond the mid-level range of their class, such as Laurana, really brought home the problem of the system at the time. While it's noble to think of the Golden General being who she was for her placement in history rather than her 4 or 5 levels in the fighter class (she was an elf, AND female - the classic AD&D glass ceiling) I don't think this kind of thing holds much water now.
See, I think quite the opposite. Take The Lord of the Rings for example. Frodo, in my estimation, would be max a 4th level Fighter by the end of the story. It's almost Tolkien's main point that his primary hero is no Conan. Laurana I can see working up to 5th level by the end of the Chronicles--not too shabby in 1e AD&D terms, but not a Super Hero either. That doesn't make her less of a great and potent character in the story, simply her strength does not lie in terms of D&D combat prowess. She really doesn't physically "kick butt" in the novels, after all, but is consistently portrayed as the most completely untrained and weak member of the party. Her strength lies in her love for Tanis, and she's the Golden General due to her charisma and wisdom, if anything.
I really give Tracy and his team credit for helping us look beyond the stats by simplifying them as much as possible. I suppose the SAGA game tried to do the same, in a way. d20 seems to have moved in the opposite direction, however. Regards.
The WotL variant reminds me a lot of the old Tales of the Lance progression for knights. That was a definite improvement over the DLCS. A little multiclassing with cleric, and your Sword Knight could effectively be a Clerist.
The Clerist role, IMO, is a GREAT fix to the question of whether Sword Knights casted spells or not. Answer - some don't, some do. Now we can have it both ways.
I quite agree. That is indeed the most sensible way to handle it. Regards.
I really give Tracy and his team credit for helping us look beyond the stats by simplifying them as much as possible. I suppose the SAGA game tried to do the same, in a way. d20 seems to have moved in the opposite direction, however. Regards.
I think you will find that each "generation" of Dragonlance game design has worked with what it has available, and created additional material when it has suited. This applies to Tracy and the others on the original team as much as it does to us.
Cheers,
Cam
The book was great! The one complaint I have is with the KOT. All of the other classes were re-done except for them.
That's because we didn't need to.
Besides, it let us handle some new and interesting factions of the Dark Knights, which we couldn't really do much with for the other two Orders.Cheers,
Cam