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| #1sbwilsonOct 01, 2006 22:43:08 | First, my question - then I'll explain my reason for asking it: How integral to the Mystaran setting is the "form" of magic as presented in the canon material? In otherwords, do you feel that the entire magic system (how magic "works") could be replaced and still retain the Mystaran "feel"? I realize this is similar to asking (as it has been several times before) about different RPG rules being used for a Mystaran campaign. But what I am more specifically asking about is a complete change in the magic structure. I feel it should still have a strong connection to the Nucleus of the Spheres (whatever that might mean is open to interpretation), but changing how it operates "in-game." At this point, I'm not exactly looking for a discussion on different magical systems - since there are a lot out there that I have been tweaking with - but your thoughts on whether the D&D magic system is integral to Mystara. I, personally, do not think it is. I've always leaned towards more "low-magic" campaigns where +1 swords aren't found in every 3rd encounter. Even with Mystara's strong law-chaos alignment (which I have never been totally sold on either), magic never seemed to be a major focus. But what about Glantri and/or Alphatia I hear you ask? Well, true, both countries live/breathe/eat/drink magic, but I don't think the RULES of magic (be it OD&D, AD&D, 3.5, etc.) are much of a driving force. So again, can the way magic works in Mystara be changed and have it still be Mystara? I think it can. Now, why bother? Because with each passing year, I'm becoming more and more disenchanted with the spellcasting rules of D&D. I don't mind the rest (more or less), but I'm really looking for something fresh without significantly altering my beloved Mystara. |
| #2agathoklesOct 02, 2006 2:29:06 | How integral to the Mystaran setting is the "form" of magic as presented in the canon material? In otherwords, do you feel that the entire magic system (how magic "works") could be replaced and still retain the Mystaran "feel"? There are certainly some elements that are needed, though they aren't expecially constraining: 1) Magic requires study and/or research; otherwise, the Great School and similar institutions would have little meaning. 2) Magic requires some natural talent as well; otherwise, all Alphatians and all rich Glantrians would be wizards (same for clerical magic, you need some natural talent, though different or less evident than for wizardly magic). 3) Wizards are usually able to operate at their best alone -- i.e., there's no need for them to join other wizards except to exchange knowledge and pool resources (libraries, lab equipment). 4) Wizardly magic (at least) is based on memorization; otherwise, the exam at the end of the Great School curriculum (which mostly tests the ability of the candidate to select effective and versatile spells) would lose much meaning (though this has a much smaller impact on the setting than the previous points). 5) Magic can be effectively used in combat and in everyday life -- at least within certain limits, it doesn't negatively affect the wizard (if casting spells could have dangerous effects, who would use it to power city lights?) 6) Wizardly magic has limited curative powers -- only very powerful wizards can perform healing magic; otherwise the plagues in Glantri would have had much more limited effects. As to the NoS, it is mostly a narrative device with limited effects from the game mechanics point of view, so it would easily merge with any magic system. |
| #3the_stalkerOct 02, 2006 10:18:07 | There are certainly some elements that are needed, though they aren't expecially constraining: 1. Agreed. 2. This is actually something never explored by the D&D rules, though it has been mentioned in the background material. For example, the Player's Guide to Alphatia in DotE mentions that over time the percentage of Alphatians able to learn (wizardly) magic has dropped to one in five, where it used to be 99%. Yet D&D has nothing to represent this. In other gaming systems, this would be fairly easy to represent. In GURPS, for example, it would be represented by the "Magery" advantage. 3. I think that's more a consequence of distrust and pride than on ability. Wizards could probably do great magic in cooperation, but they have a tradition for the exact opposite (unlike the priests, who had dedicated "cooperative magic" in the 2e Tome of Magic). 4. Yes. Being a wizard must be definition be a scholarly pursuit, or magic colleges like Glantri's Great School of Magic, Karameikos' School of Magecraft, or Alphatia's University of Air Magics would be meaningless. 5. Not so sure about that one. It certainly goes for most spells in D&D, but I don't see why it would have to be so. Some magic-heavy nations like Glantri or Alphatia definitely depend on the exploitation of magic, but I've never heard that the streets of Specularum or even Thyatis City are lighted by Continual Light spells or whatever. In very few cases, there are examples of magic being integrated into the mundane life of any Mystaran nation. About the only example I can think of are the Alphatian fire slayers (firemen), and they are scarcely common in any event. 6. Not sure, but certainly less efficient and convenient than it is for priests. Apart from all this, there are some instances of magic that are important. For example, Alphatian skyships are impossible without heavy magic, but in most instances, the D&D magic system is not particularly important in that regard, since its deeper rules were never specifically integrated into the setting itself. So as long as you replace the needs of certain areas with something similar, there will probably be few problems. And most magic systems have fireballs and similar. |
| #4agathoklesOct 02, 2006 11:18:23 | 2. This is actually something never explored by the D&D rules, though it has been mentioned in the background material. For example, the Player's Guide to Alphatia in DotE mentions that over time the percentage of Alphatians able to learn (wizardly) magic has dropped to one in five, where it used to be 99%. Yet D&D has nothing to represent this. In other gaming systems, this would be fairly easy to represent. In GURPS, for example, it would be represented by the "Magery" advantage. The D&D magic system is compatible with this background element. It is certainly one point where it is not entirely effective in representing the setting, though. 3. I think that's more a consequence of distrust and pride than on ability. Wizards could probably do great magic in cooperation, but they have a tradition for the exact opposite (unlike the priests, who had dedicated "cooperative magic" in the 2e Tome of Magic). Sure, the point is that whatever a wizard can do, he can do it alone. That's while "covens" are not the basic units of wizard groups (as in Witchcraft, e.g.) and why there are many wizards who can retire to isolated tower without fear of losing effectiveness. 5. Not so sure about that one. It certainly goes for most spells in D&D, but I don't see why it would have to be so. Some magic-heavy nations like Glantri or Alphatia definitely depend on the exploitation of magic, but I've never heard that the streets of Specularum or even Thyatis City are lighted by Continual Light spells or whatever. In very few cases, there are examples of magic being integrated into the mundane life of any Mystaran nation. About the only example I can think of are the Alphatian fire slayers (firemen), and they are scarcely common in any event. Yes, but some magic systems simply make magic too valuable for the wizard to make even those few exceptions likely. Apart from all this, there are some instances of magic that are important. For example, Alphatian skyships are impossible without heavy magic, but in most instances, the D&D magic system is not particularly important in that regard, since its deeper rules were never specifically integrated into the setting itself. So as long as you replace the needs of certain areas with something similar, there will probably be few problems. And most magic systems have fireballs and similar. Agreed. |
| #5sbwilsonOct 02, 2006 14:51:11 | 6) Wizardly magic has limited curative powers -- only very powerful wizards can perform healing magic; otherwise the plagues in Glantri would have had much more limited effects. Ah! But isn't the arcane/divine division of magic purely a D&D construct? Is that division integral to Mystara? What if magic was magic, so to speak, and the only difference was in how the caster viewed the "source". In such a case, there would certainly be some explaining to do - as in the mentioned case of Glantri. How much would it change things for there to be no separate "spell lists" for clerics and magic users? Would the setting fall apart? Apart from all this, there are some instances of magic that are important. For example, Alphatian skyships are impossible without heavy magic, but in most instances, the D&D magic system is not particularly important in that regard, since its deeper rules were never specifically integrated into the setting itself. So as long as you replace the needs of certain areas with something similar, there will probably be few problems. And most magic systems have fireballs and similar. Could you have Alphatian skyships without the fireballs? What I have been messing with lately is an adaptation of Ars Magica. For those not familiar with it, spellcasting uses 5 "techniques" and 10 "forms" - you combine one of each to produce an effect such as create (technique) fire (form) for all kinds of spells that produce fire, such as fireballs - it just becomes a matter of magnitude. I've given thought to changing the techniques to "spheres" and giving magic as a whole more of an "Immortal outlook": Matter -- Creo (Create) Energy -- Rego (Control) Time -- Muto (Change) Thought -- Intellego (Perceive) Entropy -- Perdo (Destroy) And keeping the original form names (with the exception of the last one): Animal Aquam (Water) Auram (Air) Corpus (Body) Herbam (Plant) Ignem (Fire) Imaginem (Image) Mentem (Mind) Terram (Earth) Vim (Power/Raw Magic) -- I would change this to "Radiance" or something similar I think it actually works well, but I'm still in the initial stages of playing around with it...Radiance...Immortal Spheres...it has potential. The big problem, as touched on earlier, is that there is no division between divine and arcane. Is this a death blow for a Mystaran campaign? Sure, anything can be adapted (after all, it is the DMs game), but I don't want to alter too much of the world history. |
| #6CthulhudrewOct 02, 2006 19:06:46 | The big problem, as touched on earlier, is that there is no division between divine and arcane. Is this a death blow for a Mystaran campaign? Sure, anything can be adapted (after all, it is the DMs game), but I don't want to alter too much of the world history. For a long time, I've pondered the whole divine vs. arcane magic thing as well, and I think in many ways it works to the detriment of D&D, frankly, but that's probably another thread in and of itself. What I will say is that I think your idea can work perfectly well without the difference between magic, and that it won't impact the setting all that much. The main difference, as it appears to me, between arcane and divine magic comes not from the different types of magic, but as you say, the source. In particular, that divine magic is bestowed by the Immortals, and arcane magic is achieved through personal means (study, innate ability, whatever). It's pretty much an artificial distinction, though, and IMO could easily be retained via the concept of religion. Simply toss out divine magic altogether, and have clerics be representatives of their churches and beliefs, and therein you retain the core difference between the arcane/divine conflict. I'd even go so far as to suggest doing away with members of the clergy being spellcasters at all (save for, perhaps, the occasional "miracle" granted by their patrons). I don't think it would impact the setting to do something like this. It might even further enhance the background- the ban on clerics in Glantri is a ban on organized religion; in response, the wizards of Glantri are seen as a dangerous and unchecked power due to their heathen ways, for example. Yeah, I don't think it would damage anything at all. |
| #7johnbilesOct 02, 2006 23:48:06 | Ah! But isn't the arcane/divine division of magic purely a D&D construct? Is that division integral to Mystara? What if magic was magic, so to speak, and the only difference was in how the caster viewed the "source". In such a case, there would certainly be some explaining to do - as in the mentioned case of Glantri. The setting would collapse like a sodden cardboard house. Some parts of it would change a lot if every cleric had massive low-level artillery magic (Northern Reaches). Others would be seriously changed if Wizards have divine healing (Glantri, Alphatia, etc.) Why bother submitting to the will of an Immortal if you don't get anything that can't be done by a wizard who can do whatever he wants? Furthermore, the Wizard can create new spells and the cleric cannot. |
| #8sbwilsonOct 03, 2006 1:48:03 | Why bother submitting to the will of an Immortal if you don't get anything that can't be done by a wizard who can do whatever he wants? Because it is a ready-made structure for mentoring/teaching/sharing knowledge? True, there are wizard guilds, but it seems that most wizards are portrayed as being somewhat more on the selfish side of the knowledge transfer, whereas a clerical order has a definite common goal for the greater good/evil/whatever. Just because a cleric could have "massive low-level artillery magic" doesn't mean that it is acceptable to do so in that particular religious order. I realize that might be a lame explanation for some folks, but I'm trying to see if I could get something like this to make sense. Besides, just because a Real World, modern day organization (including religions) can do something doesn't mean they will do it. Furthermore, the Wizard can create new spells and the cleric cannot. Well, in this case, if there was no difference between divine magic and arcane magic, what is to keep a cleric from petitioning a deity/Immortal to grant a new miracle? So the plagues in Glantri were so terrible because...why? Perhaps because the majority of the spellcasters in Glantri do not focus on healing magic? It becomes more of a cultural thing. The trick, then, is to figure out why the Glantrians do not have a strong basis in healing. Of course, if I ran a campaign like this, I would probably avoid the whole debate and keep the PCs from even getting near Glantri in the first place. ;) |
| #9agathoklesOct 03, 2006 2:17:55 | Because it is a ready-made structure for mentoring/teaching/sharing knowledge? True, there are wizard guilds, but it seems that most wizards are portrayed as being somewhat more on the selfish side of the knowledge transfer, whereas a clerical order has a definite common goal for the greater good/evil/whatever. That may be true in the KW, but in Alphatia, being a cleric is simply a fallback option for those who aren't able to become wizards. This means that, in the setting, clerical magic has different requirements from wizardly magic (and it's not matter of a different approach: Alphatian children are tested for magic aptitude at a young age, so there must be some inherent talent that is needed to wield wizardly magic, and that is not necessary for clerical magic). So the plagues in Glantri were so terrible because...why? Perhaps because the majority of the spellcasters in Glantri do not focus on healing magic? It becomes more of a cultural thing. This does not seem to me a feasible option: due to market demand, a sufficient number of spellcasters would devote themselves to healing magic if this was possible. Remember also that high-level, very rich people died in the plague (the Princes of Linden) who would certainly have hired wizardly healers, if such things were even remotely possible in Glantri. |
| #10agathoklesOct 03, 2006 2:36:52 | I think it actually works well, but I'm still in the initial stages of playing around with it...Radiance...Immortal Spheres...it has potential. The big problem, as touched on earlier, is that there is no division between divine and arcane. Is this a death blow for a Mystaran campaign? Sure, anything can be adapted (after all, it is the DMs game), but I don't want to alter too much of the world history. Actually, the Ars Magica system happens to be quite suitable. However, IIRC in AM it is impossible to perform permanent healing (or any other permanent magic) without Vis. You might rework it to allow Vis to be replaced with any of the following: - Radiance (only for some tasks, you can't heal with Radiance, IMO) - Immortal power (this is what would define clerical magic, which would however be limited by some additional requirement, to avoid priestly fireballs and magic missiles) - The caster's own life energy (for magic item creation) |
| #11culture20Oct 03, 2006 18:08:42 | Ah! But isn't the arcane/divine division of magic purely a D&D construct? Not really. There's been a percieved difference between miracles and magic in RL for a _long_ time. In the Christian concept, miracles were from God (or the actions of his obediant angels), and magic was from the actions of demons (disobediant [evil] angels). Some believed that you could trick a demon into doing something for you at no cost to yourself, thus the concept of arcane magic being capable via self learning (the mage deluding himself into thinking he controls the demon). Of course, in some Jewish stories, Solomon's wisdom involved magic which was just knowledge of how to do what angels do (implying a melding of divine & arcane). |
| #12the_stalkerOct 04, 2006 12:51:41 | Ah! But isn't the arcane/divine division of magic purely a D&D construct? Is that division integral to Mystara? What if magic was magic, so to speak, and the only difference was in how the caster viewed the "source". In such a case, there would certainly be some explaining to do - as in the mentioned case of Glantri. Mystara less so than most (A)D&D settings. In fact, Heal was a 9th-level wizard spell in OD&D (the priest version was called Cureall and 6th-level). Elves of Alfheim had the various cure spells as wizard spells in Gaz 5 to support the idea of elven treekeepers that served as the spiritual representatives of the trees of life in spite of the forced OD&D elf class that equalled a 2e/3e fighter/mage. These wizardly cure spells were generally two levels higher than the priest equivalent (Cure Light Wounds as a third level wizard spell, for example) and restricted to the elves. Still, I put them it my own 2e campaign, where my wizardly version of Cure Light Wounds cured only 1d6 (instead of priests using 1d8 when curing wounds in 2e) as they originally were in OD&D, I demanded a material component costing 25 gp per casting, and had the spell inflict 1d2 points of damage on the wizard casting it. It was rarely, if ever used, since the priest versions were far more convenient and effective to use. So no, it won't change too much in my experience. Could you have Alphatian skyships without the fireballs? :D - No, of course not! Actually, that comment was meant to point more to the "or something similar" bit. What I have been messing with lately is an adaptation of Ars Magica. For those not familiar with it, spellcasting uses 5 "techniques" and 10 "forms" - you combine one of each to produce an effect such as create (technique) fire (form) for all kinds of spells that produce fire, such as fireballs - it just becomes a matter of magnitude. Ah, well. In that case you don't need to worry about the wizard/priest distinction at all, since it's completely irrelevant to Ars Magica. The distinction is there only to force the archetypes of the classes in the first place, but in skill-based games like Ars Magica, there are no classes to force. And naturally, the social reputation of wizards is enforced far stronger in Ars Magica by the setting, where the wizards are often considered evil devil-worshippers and witches, which makes for less min/max-ing and powergaming, but deeper role-playing. I've given thought to changing the techniques to "spheres" and giving magic as a whole more of an "Immortal outlook": Yes, I think that might work. Like I said, it's all very convenient, since it was never integrated too much into the setting, so as long as you have something (anything) to replace certain magics with, then you have no problem. I wouldn't make the "Radiance" a part of the generic system, though, since it is (and should be) limited to Glantri alone. Instead you could make it "uber-Vim" or a powerful reagent to affect the forms. If you figure it all out, then please post the results on the board - I might even try Ars Magica or GURPS on my own Mystara campaign. |
| #13the_stalkerOct 04, 2006 13:08:43 | The setting would collapse like a sodden cardboard house. Some parts of it would change a lot if every cleric had massive low-level artillery magic (Northern Reaches). Others would be seriously changed if Wizards have divine healing (Glantri, Alphatia, etc.) Not really. Besides, nobody is suggesting clerics get massive low-level artillery. As for the wizards, obviously they won't have divine healing, but healing is another matter. First of all, remember that there are plenty of clerics in Alphatia already, so letting wizards have healing won't affect the setting. As for Glantri, there really wouldn't be much impact either. Sure, you might argue the plague during WOTI, but remember that WOTI was written for OD&D, where wizards do have Heal as a 9th level spell, which can cure disease (check D&D Cyclopedia, p.59), so it's not that the Glantrian wizards didn't have the means to combat plague, they just couldn't do it fast enough to stop it spreading among the common population. Why bother submitting to the will of an Immortal if you don't get anything that can't be done by a wizard who can do whatever he wants? Furthermore, the Wizard can create new spells and the cleric cannot. Sure clerics can make new spells. They have to petition their deities (i.e., the GM) for it, but it's not prohibited by the rules. Besides, it always struck me as odd that clerical powers were so formalized in D&D. It makes much more sense to allow them granted powers and then achieve other results through prayer, which should be like a wish that the player has no control over. Yet it's wizards and not clerics who have Wishes in D&D. The Miracle spell did not appear until 3e and thus cannot be argued to be a part of the underlying classic structure of D&D if you ask me. |
| #14agathoklesOct 04, 2006 13:50:44 | Elves of Alfheim had the various cure spells as wizard spells in Gaz 5 to support the idea of elven treekeepers that served as the spiritual representatives of the trees of life in spite of the forced OD&D elf class that equalled a 2e/3e fighter/mage. Yet the Treekeeper class variant was more of a priest/wizard than a fighter/wizard, and could probably convert as such (or as an ad hoc specialty priest) in AD&D 2e. Standard OD&D wizards had only the Heal spell, at a very high level -- when AD&D wizards already have Limited Wish, which can have the following effect: A limited wish can heal damage for the caster or any single character of the caster's choice. A good range is 20-35 hit points (5d4 + 15) of healing. If a limited wish is used to heal damage in this way, it cannot be used to restore life; that is, it cannot affect any creature who has been reduced to 0 hit points. (CBW, ch. 7) Ah, well. In that case you don't need to worry about the wizard/priest distinction at all, since it's completely irrelevant to Ars Magica. The distinction is there only to force the archetypes of the classes in the first place, but in skill-based games like Ars Magica, there are no classes to force. And naturally, the social reputation of wizards is enforced far stronger in Ars Magica by the setting, where the wizards are often considered evil devil-worshippers and witches, which makes for less min/max-ing and powergaming, but deeper role-playing. But if you want to use the AM system with the Mystara setting, you either alter the setting to fit these meta-setting requirements of AM, or you have to somehow alter the AM system to fit the setting assumptions -- i.e., you may use standard AM magic for both clerical and wizardly magic, but this changes the setting (which may or may not be desirable). Otherwise, you may set up two different (though possibly both AM based) magic systems (in AM itself there are magic systems different from Hermetic magic, IIRC). |
| #15sbwilsonOct 08, 2006 0:59:01 | Thank you everyone for your thoughts on this. I have to admit that this has been more of an intellectual exercise than anything I planned to do much with. I just recently moved AGAIN and am not currently in any kind of campaign - but it has been fun to think about. |