Why was the Dark Sun campaign done away with?
It did't sell, and WOTC/Hasbro likes profit$.
As for a 3.5 update, there was one in Dragon , Issue 319. No back issues, but you can get the PDF.
http://paizo.com/store/paizo/dragon/downloads/319
You're right, it's an fantastic setting. Only that it sold not well enough, I guess.
I'm not even sure about that. I'd say it's just that they decided to stick with one setting. All campaign settings besides FR (which for some reason I cannot even begin to fathom seems to sell best) were discontinued. Planescape, e.g. was great, as well.
It did't sell, and WOTC/Hasbro likes profit$.
As for a 3.5 update, there was one in Dragon , Issue 319. No back issues, but you can get the PDF.
http://paizo.com/store/paizo/dragon/downloads/319
It's worth pointing out that Dark Sun purists might find the aim of that conversion - to adapt the setting to the revised Third Edition rules, rather than use the current ruleset to describe the setting as it used to be - a little jarring. Paladins are included, for instance.
There's a companion article in the same month's Dungeon Magazine.
I really enjoyed the Dark Sun world, although most of my experience with it was through the old impossible-to-win "Dark Sun: Shattered Lands" PC game. (I did have the 2e campaign setting box set and the Complete Gladiator's Handbook but I never got an opportunity to run a game in the setting).
I'm not even sure about that. I'd say it's just that they decided to stick with one setting. All campaign settings besides FR (which for some reason I cannot even begin to fathom seems to sell best) were discontinued. Planescape, e.g. was great, as well.
I would disagree that all of the settings were eliminated. We do have a Dragonlance campaign setting. The reason for FR being out is that it is the most complete world that they have. That may also be the main reason it sold so well.
I would disagree that all of the settings were eliminated. We do have a Dragonlance campaign setting. The reason for FR being out is that it is the most complete world that they have. That may also be the main reason it sold so well.
Also there are all the novels for Forgotten Realms which helps it aong.
I think WotC could probably draw a profit if they made a 3E small-print run of Dark Sun, making it well known that beyond the campaign book there would be no support. I think if they did the like for other campaign worlds, they could turn a tidy little sum and make a lot of people of happy - at least for a short while.
I really enjoyed the Dark Sun world, although most of my experience with it was through the old impossible-to-win "Dark Sun: Shattered Lands" PC game. (I did have the 2e campaign setting box set and the Complete Gladiator's Handbook but I never got an opportunity to run a game in the setting).
Huh. Not to sidetrack the thread, but I didn't find that game "impossible to win." In fact, it's on the (very short) list of computer games that I ever have played to completion.
It was a blast, though. It, the old Al Qadim game, and the first Ravenloft game all still rank among my favorite PC gaming memories.
With the Ravenloft adventure releasing this month, it's becoming apparent that WotC is beginning to see the old settings as profitable again. And I have a feeling that as long as they make the Dark Sun books crunchy enough, probably even non-Dark Sun-playing GMs and players will buy them; some good psionic classes here, a few nifty special materials there, some good monsters on the side and boom, you've got sales.
But that may just be me
Really all WotC has to do to endorse a campaign setting is publish the Main Campaign book and let the other companies out there develop materials on their own, with WotC signing off on the projects. This way, WotC can jump in if they suddenly become profitable or let them die should sales not meet expectations.
They actually tried this business model in the past -- couple of years ago. Not with Dark Sun, but with one of the other old campaign settings, though I can't recall which one. Basically, none of the third party publishers would bite. Core setting books sell by one or two orders of magnitude better than the followon supplementals.
As for why DS was canceled, way back in '95? TSR was a mess, and steadily circiling the drain. They were in financial trouble, and DS -- and several other niche settings -- just weren't making them any money. They felt they had to discontinue the non-profitables. It costs them quite a bit of money to do a print run, pay authors, copy editors, etc ... Making a new product is an investment, and if it doesn't sell well, then they loose money on it. TSR was busy doing that hand over fist.
Of the "dead" campaign settings -- Weise and Hickman have reclaimed Dragonlance, and WotC published a corebook in '03. ArtHaus/White Wolf/Sword and Sorcery picked up Ravenloft in '02 or '03, but it's now out of print.
Near as I know, Birthright, Planescape, Spelljammer and Mystara still primarily exist through the fan sites, much as Athas.org does. that is, there's been some minor treatment in Dragon, but otherwise it's up to the site.
http://www.amazon.com/Dragonlance-Campaign-Dungeon-Dragons-Roleplaying/dp/0786930861
http://www.white-wolf.com/ravenloft/
As for WotC making use of the DS property? There have been rumors over the years, everywhere from Troy Denning getting the property back, to an animated cartoon. Nothing has ever come of it.
Of the "dead" campaign settings -- Weise and Hickman have reclaimed Dragonlance, and WotC published a corebook in '03. ArtHaus/White Wolf/Sword and Sorcery picked up Ravenloft in '02 or '03, but it's now out of print.
Yah, and not just out of print, but the rights to Ravenloft reverted back to WotC. Oh, and look what we have from them this month: Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. WotC know what side their bread is buttered on, and no mistake. Dragonlance seems to be doing a roaring trade, though. They have a thriving product line, fans post at the WotC DL boards less and less, choosing the official DL forums instead. They're doing pretty well. DS might be so lucky if it could get the original designers back into the mix, but they have pretty much moved on afaik. Athas is in good hands right now, seems to me.
Wanderers Journal forever!
If you want to start a Dark Sun campaign Athas.org is a fantastic website. There is more than enough material there to get things moving.
If you're going to play anything short of a home-brewed campaign, put in a little effort reading some novels and a couple of supplements. It will enhance your experience of any game world whether player or DM.
As an SJ fan, we have a 3.x conversion process that moves... well reasonably slowly (ok so it's our fault... meh). I haven't looked over athas.org for a while, but from what i remember, it was an Amazing site!
I'd been wondering lately whether there was more than met teh eye about Ravenloft reverting to WotC ... looks like maybe i was right...
Has there ever been any DS merchandise? Just curious how that looked like. Just thinking to do a spoof DS collection. But then I've almost started doing that when I was at fashion college...
(1999)
... although I somehow don't think that people would wear this kind of stuff for a stroll through their local town centre... maybe I should do a wearable collection after all ;)
Lastard >8)
I have to say they've got a cool logo. It looks good on the stuff they've got in their merchandise section. That's the fashion designer speaking...
Has there ever been any DS merchandise? Just curious how that looked like. Just thinking to do a spoof DS collection. But then I've almost started doing that when I was at fashion college...
(1999)
... although I somehow don't think that people would wear this kind of stuff for a stroll through their local town centre... maybe I should do a wearable collection after all ;)
Lastard >8)
Lastard, those are awesome pictures. Do you have more of that kind of DS-themed clothing to view? I use handouts and images in my games all the time, and that would work really well as something to show players.
lastard >8)
http://www.geocities.com/lastard/gallery.htm
and some other drawings in other sections (Monsters, Artefacts, NPCs and People & Places). Hopefully after my exams this month I will be able to do some more drawings... Anything specific you are looking for?
Lastard >8)
Lastard >8)
And btw, what's also the point of answering the people who first wrote in this thread if they can't find it again to look up the answers?
/frustrated about other things, just venting out
lLack of sales. DS was always a niche product. Psionics didn't help it either. To be blunt 2nd ed was a mish mash disaster. DS the world was great. DS the game was awful mechanics wise.
Mechanics-wise, 2nd ed was awful in general...
Although I still like running Dark Sun in 2nd ed. For some reason, it's the easiest setting for me to run in 2nd ed.
What's the point of this thread? WizOs bump it to this board...so that, what...we speculate on what we already know? That thread belongs on the general boards, not here.
And btw, what's also the point of answering the people who first wrote in this thread if they can't find it again to look up the answers?
/frustrated about other things, just venting out
And thus does Dark Sun stay in obscurity. (Sigh) At least the old fans still stick around.
The Mechanics were a mess but then again most people I ever played with just used house rules anyway so I do not see that being much of the cuase for the setting's demise. though truly had they left out Psionics all together i think the setting would have been just fine, if not better off.
If we really want WotC to revisist Athas then we need to drum up interest in the setting OUTSIDE of the established fan base. A few really good short stories and articles in Dragon and Dungeon would go a long way to help this, but starting here in the forums would help out a lot too.
But alas I do not think that WotC is going to be even considering supporting another setting until Eberron has run it's course or Forgotten realms dies all together.
:evillaughThe real reason that DS went under was the " revised and Expanded " version, my apologie sto the authors and those who loved this expansion but it just did not jive one single bit with the setting as it had been up to that point.
It is far from the real reason why the setting went was done away with.
It is far from the real reason why the setting went was done away with.
What was the real reason?
-J
The real reason? Space halflings. And ninjas. But mostly space halflings.
I hate Ninjas. Those guys are everywhere.
-J
I hate Ninjas. Those guys are everywhere.
-J
Ninja's are cool - and it says why here -
http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g28/Kalthandrix/poster-ninja.jpg
I'm sure that the dolphins had their evil little fins in it as well.
For those of you who do not believe - phear!
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g28/Kalthandrix/motivator72eefc0fd54206e063df0c4441.jpg
2nd I firmly believe that the reason we havent seen Darksun liscended out is because it was such a big seller back in the day. I know that dragonlance was also a big seller but come on, Darksun had its only MMO for christ sake. Not only that but the original Dragonlance authors are the one who wanted to liscence it out and their fans would follow them anywhere and listen to anything they say. So if they didnt get the liscence all they would have to say is WOTC is evil and wont give us our Dragonlance world, please dont buy anymore DL product and that would be the end of all DL product. On top of that the one other Campaign setting that they did liscence out was a total flop(Ravenloft)
Sorry about all the grammer and spelling errors its like the butt crack of dawn here lol
To sum it up I dont think it was malicous, and it obviously didnt happen to just Darksun. Darksun is just to prophitable(stupid hooked on Phonics) to be given away, and its not the time for WOTC to release old settings yet.
I think unlike FR it was a fairly complete game world with only a minimal number of supplements required to play. and the novels didnt help by alienating/confusing so many of the fans.
Gimme the 2nd edition boxed set, complete gladiators, defilers and preservers and the will and the way and i had all i needed.
The revised version tried to fix this, by establishing the mythos and expanding the game world, but unsuccessfully.
FR is the marvel universe, a lot of heroes, a massive number of plotlines, and more stories than you can throw a stick at (or you could call it the WWE if you want).
Dark Sun limited itself in scope, then threw in this history that didnt match, and killed off half the major NPC's. Dont get me wrong. i love the setting, and i liked the novels (whyd Rajaat kill Tec! he kicked ass!) but to dream of some day when DS will return like a phoenix?
Be grateful for athas.org. Cause i bet thats all we'll ever get of the world under the Dark Sun.
DS is way too different from the average d&d world. This means it is really hard to explain it to newcomers and to adapt supplements to it. There isn't a single 3.5 product that can be used "as is" with DS, but you can use 99% of them with FR and Eberron. This is the main reason.
Also, space hamsters and dwelfs. :P
A lot of speculation in this thread. I would be more interested in facts. :P
I agree - there is enough reaching here to stretch out a runty halfling (not that a good stretching would not do some of those buggers some good) but unsupported "facts" seem to be running a bit rampant!!!
http://www.atlasofadventure.com/Archive/TSR1997Buyout.asp
http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/rants/tsr.html
regardless. Athas is in good hands now.
let's keep it free.
no, just a sobering experience reading that. though you'd think that they would pay more attention to the complaints of the psionic forums, lots of good ideas and suggestions, and they seem to be ignored.
regardless. Athas is in good hands now.
let's keep it free.
I think that would be the best way to fulfill the dreams of all of athasians, lets keep them free