Toe to Toe Full Powered Dragon vs. Full Powered Avangion... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Toe to Toe Full Powered Dragon vs. Full Powered Avangion...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
todesherr
Oct 03, 2006 1:21:36 who would win?
#2
csk
Oct 03, 2006 10:19:27 Whoever has more time to prepare.
#3
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 03, 2006 10:38:33 All else being equal, it should be 50/50 odds. The dragon is able to absorb, soak, and mitigate a lot of damage better than the avangion, but the avangion is able to avoid and deflect damage better than the dragon. All in all, it really comes down to, as CSK said, who had the most time to prepare.
#4
lyric
Oct 03, 2006 21:14:08 I think that's about the way it should be..

but what would be the case in a barren wasteland??
#5
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 04, 2006 10:33:36
I think that's about the way it should be..

but what would be the case in a barren wasteland??

It depends. You mean a barren wasteland completely devoid of life, or just devoid of plant life. Because the former would give the Avangion an advantage, as a completely-transformed Avangion basically is its own wellspring of life-energy for its own spells, while the Dragon would be virtually incapable of casting arcane spells. However, there still is the formidable physical abilities of that dragon to contend with, and in the psionics arena, I'd wager tha Avangion would still come out ahead.
#6
lyric
Oct 05, 2006 19:52:03 is it guaranteed that the Avangion will supply it's own energy ? And what's to stop a dragon from siphoning the Avangion's hp for his spells??

(And yes, I was talking no plantlife OR animal life)
#7
delerak
Oct 05, 2006 23:09:18 The avangion would win out I think. You'd have to compare a lot of stuff. But my guess would be the avangion.
#8
pringles
Oct 05, 2006 23:55:57 With 2e edition, I tried it with one of my player, just for fun.

A 30th level dragon against a 30th level Avangion. It became more a way of "Who can use the spells and psionic at the best capabilities", rather than, "Wich beast is the strongest". Overall, I (the dragon) won two time against the Avangion player who won four match, but he knew is psionic book better than me and even managed combo between spell and magic.

We also tried a 30th level Elemental priest. Of course, it lost everytime, but the Avangion or the Dragon were badly damaged too .
#9
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 06, 2006 8:11:14
is it guaranteed that the Avangion will supply it's own energy ? And what's to stop a dragon from siphoning the Avangion's hp for his spells??

(And yes, I was talking no plantlife OR animal life)

I would say that yes, a stage-10 Avangion would be solidly and strictly able to use his own life energy. Avangions also (should) have an ability preventing their life energy from being defiled by Dragons.
#10
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 06, 2006 8:12:06
With 2e edition, I tried it with one of my player, just for fun.

A 30th level dragon against a 30th level Avangion. It became more a way of "Who can use the spells and psionic at the best capabilities", rather than, "Wich beast is the strongest". Overall, I (the dragon) won two time against the Avangion player who won four match, but he knew is psionic book better than me and even managed combo between spell and magic.

We also tried a 30th level Elemental priest. Of course, it lost everytime, but the Avangion or the Dragon were badly damaged too .

Well, in 2e, the Advanced Beings were not even remotely balanced. We're truying to ensure that they are in DS3 rules.
#11
kalthandrix
Oct 06, 2006 13:08:22
I would say that yes, a stage-10 Avangion would be solidly and strictly able to use his own life energy. Avangions also (should) have an ability preventing their life energy from being defiled by Dragons.

Well there is also range to be considered her too - the Avangion could just stay out of the Dragons defiling radius and just pummel the Dragon with spells and psionics with spells and effects of at least medium and long range.

The avangion can also fly much, much faster and with way better maneuverability too - so aerial combat would allow the avangion to sweep the dragon IMO.
#12
terminus_vortexa
Oct 06, 2006 15:53:30 Balance is important in 3.5E D&D, but I always got the impression from the materials available in 2E and the novels that the reason the SKs feared and hated the possibility of an Avangion reaching its final state is that a fully metamorphosed Avangion would just clean them all up wholesale.Also, while levels in a class must be balanced, the same is not necessarily true for attributes gained through a metamorphosis induced by epic spells.
#13
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 06, 2006 16:16:06 Mainly because we made up that mechanic (and can make it up as we go along). However, for the mechanic to not be broken, we do have to consider balance in the system for metamorphoses through epic spells. It is actually harder to do this, because there is no real guidelines that lay it all out for us, and we have to figure it all out ourselves.
#14
lyric
Oct 07, 2006 17:21:17 I always felt that the balance between the two forms (Dragon vs Avangion) was that the benefits and drawbacks of the two forms sorta canceled each other out..

Dragon (upsides)
Physical Fighting Traits (claws, breath weapon, etc)
High AC
Magic Resistance
Defiling vs Living creatures (extra damage dealt enemies)

Dragon (downsides)
slow advancement of Magic Resistance
low immunity to Magic Weapons
Need for orbs to use Psionic Ench.

Avangion (upsides)
Immunity to dragon Physical Fighting traits
High AC (not quite as high as a dragons)
Magic Resistance (gained sooner)
Use self for magic energy w/out damage (DM ruling)
High immunity to magic weapons
No need for orbs to use Psionic Ench.
More HP than a Dragon
Aura

Avangion (downsides)
No physical attacks
Never land (which could create problems, especially underground or in confined spaces)

The Dragon can't use his physical fighting vs the avangion, the avangion can't physically fight at all (which kinda equals out vs each other).

The Avangion gains an edge in magic and psionics while the dragon needs those orbs.

The Dragon can defile the Avangion for energy (ouch), while the Avangion can tap themselves without harm. (kinda equals out again in a toe to toe battle)

Avangion gains Aura which limits dragons magic and physical effectiveness.

So there are ups and downs to each side, and each side has a greater advantage in certain situations... (The dragon is better vs a group than the avangion in a fight, if death dealing is the goal while the avangion is likely to be unharmable vs the group due to his immunities so he can act without being stopped while the dragon can slaughter everyone then act.)

Each has different ways to go about things.. They balance each other out, in my view, by one being more defensive than the other.. and the defensive one, being less offensive than the other in some ways...

At least, these rambling thoughts enter my mind when I think of balance..
#15
zombiegleemax
Oct 08, 2006 8:27:33 Has anyone thought of (and I'm just floating this one here) making an empirical test of the empirical proposition?
#16
zombiegleemax
Oct 13, 2006 0:29:51 Alright, so the Avangion and the Dragon fight. How about another contest. What about a Dragon/Avangion/30th Element vs. Those 36 level plus characters from D&D basic's Immortal set?
#17
lyric
Oct 13, 2006 3:38:52 Actually, I want to know if there is going to be any form of cooperative magics between, say, 1-4 elementals and a Spirit of the Land in a joint Epic spell of.. well.. Epic proportions. ;) I think it sounds like fun. I've also wondered if Avangions might be able to hook up (spell wise) with elementals, what with their traveling through the planes and all after the last spell is cast... maybe they made some friends.

Should a Spirit of the Land like, or dislike a preserver or Avangion?? on the one hand, they do not defile, (though some may turn towards it) and on the other, they may seem only like gluttons in a way, using more of the land than others of their kind.. most people eat 'something' off the land at some point, which is natural... but preservers take a little extra... which can sometimes be put to good use.. :P

Ok.. dragon vs Avangion.. simple.. Avangion wins.. why? because there will always be another dragon (easier to fall from preserver to defiler, and if the 'good guys' win, the preservers, they will merely make it all the easier for dragons to exist in the future.. more energy to suck up. :P) Could you imagine the secret of dragon metamorphosis leaking (in such a way that it could be used) into, say, forgotten realms? or krynn? (minus the deities)... especially in a world like krynn (again taking out the deities) there would be those like the white order, going towards avangion status, those like the black robes, headed towards dragons, and the red robes would all be strait psions :P or spirits of the land maybe. ;) lol
#18
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 13, 2006 9:56:17 I would say that SotL's view all Preservers as potential Defilers. However, an Avangion is someone who actually transcended that, and no longer drains external energy even as much as before they became Avangions, so I dunno about that one. They might actually somewhat like Avangions, but not necessarily wanting direct contact.
#19
kalthandrix
Oct 13, 2006 10:13:44
I would say that SotL's view all Preservers as potential Defilers. However, an Avangion is someone who actually transcended that, and no longer drains external energy even as much as before they became Avangions, so I dunno about that one. They might actually somewhat like Avangions, but not necessarily wanting direct contact.

Well - if we follow and quote the published adventures as being canon - then I would have to say that the SotL would see the Avangions as comrades and would be willing to help them - such as in the adventure Arcane Shadows.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 todesherr Oct 03, 2006 1:21:36	who would win?
#2 csk Oct 03, 2006 10:19:27	Whoever has more time to prepare.
#3 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 03, 2006 10:38:33	All else being equal, it should be 50/50 odds. The dragon is able to absorb, soak, and mitigate a lot of damage better than the avangion, but the avangion is able to avoid and deflect damage better than the dragon. All in all, it really comes down to, as CSK said, who had the most time to prepare.
#4 lyric Oct 03, 2006 21:14:08	I think that's about the way it should be.. but what would be the case in a barren wasteland??
#5 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 04, 2006 10:33:36	I think that's about the way it should be.. but what would be the case in a barren wasteland?? It depends. You mean a barren wasteland completely devoid of life, or just devoid of plant life. Because the former would give the Avangion an advantage, as a completely-transformed Avangion basically is its own wellspring of life-energy for its own spells, while the Dragon would be virtually incapable of casting arcane spells. However, there still is the formidable physical abilities of that dragon to contend with, and in the psionics arena, I'd wager tha Avangion would still come out ahead.
#6 lyric Oct 05, 2006 19:52:03	is it guaranteed that the Avangion will supply it's own energy ? And what's to stop a dragon from siphoning the Avangion's hp for his spells?? (And yes, I was talking no plantlife OR animal life)
#7 delerak Oct 05, 2006 23:09:18	The avangion would win out I think. You'd have to compare a lot of stuff. But my guess would be the avangion.
#8 pringles Oct 05, 2006 23:55:57	With 2e edition, I tried it with one of my player, just for fun. A 30th level dragon against a 30th level Avangion. It became more a way of "Who can use the spells and psionic at the best capabilities", rather than, "Wich beast is the strongest". Overall, I (the dragon) won two time against the Avangion player who won four match, but he knew is psionic book better than me and even managed combo between spell and magic. We also tried a 30th level Elemental priest. Of course, it lost everytime, but the Avangion or the Dragon were badly damaged too .
#9 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 06, 2006 8:11:14	is it guaranteed that the Avangion will supply it's own energy ? And what's to stop a dragon from siphoning the Avangion's hp for his spells?? (And yes, I was talking no plantlife OR animal life) I would say that yes, a stage-10 Avangion would be solidly and strictly able to use his own life energy. Avangions also (should) have an ability preventing their life energy from being defiled by Dragons.
#10 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 06, 2006 8:12:06	With 2e edition, I tried it with one of my player, just for fun. A 30th level dragon against a 30th level Avangion. It became more a way of "Who can use the spells and psionic at the best capabilities", rather than, "Wich beast is the strongest". Overall, I (the dragon) won two time against the Avangion player who won four match, but he knew is psionic book better than me and even managed combo between spell and magic. We also tried a 30th level Elemental priest. Of course, it lost everytime, but the Avangion or the Dragon were badly damaged too . Well, in 2e, the Advanced Beings were not even remotely balanced. We're truying to ensure that they are in DS3 rules.
#11 kalthandrix Oct 06, 2006 13:08:22	I would say that yes, a stage-10 Avangion would be solidly and strictly able to use his own life energy. Avangions also (should) have an ability preventing their life energy from being defiled by Dragons. Well there is also range to be considered her too - the Avangion could just stay out of the Dragons defiling radius and just pummel the Dragon with spells and psionics with spells and effects of at least medium and long range. The avangion can also fly much, much faster and with way better maneuverability too - so aerial combat would allow the avangion to sweep the dragon IMO.
#12 terminus_vortexa Oct 06, 2006 15:53:30	Balance is important in 3.5E D&D, but I always got the impression from the materials available in 2E and the novels that the reason the SKs feared and hated the possibility of an Avangion reaching its final state is that a fully metamorphosed Avangion would just clean them all up wholesale.Also, while levels in a class must be balanced, the same is not necessarily true for attributes gained through a metamorphosis induced by epic spells.
#13 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 06, 2006 16:16:06	Mainly because we made up that mechanic (and can make it up as we go along). However, for the mechanic to not be broken, we do have to consider balance in the system for metamorphoses through epic spells. It is actually harder to do this, because there is no real guidelines that lay it all out for us, and we have to figure it all out ourselves.
#14 lyric Oct 07, 2006 17:21:17	I always felt that the balance between the two forms (Dragon vs Avangion) was that the benefits and drawbacks of the two forms sorta canceled each other out.. Dragon (upsides) Physical Fighting Traits (claws, breath weapon, etc) High AC Magic Resistance Defiling vs Living creatures (extra damage dealt enemies) Dragon (downsides) slow advancement of Magic Resistance low immunity to Magic Weapons Need for orbs to use Psionic Ench. Avangion (upsides) Immunity to dragon Physical Fighting traits High AC (not quite as high as a dragons) Magic Resistance (gained sooner) Use self for magic energy w/out damage (DM ruling) High immunity to magic weapons No need for orbs to use Psionic Ench. More HP than a Dragon Aura Avangion (downsides) No physical attacks Never land (which could create problems, especially underground or in confined spaces) The Dragon can't use his physical fighting vs the avangion, the avangion can't physically fight at all (which kinda equals out vs each other). The Avangion gains an edge in magic and psionics while the dragon needs those orbs. The Dragon can defile the Avangion for energy (ouch), while the Avangion can tap themselves without harm. (kinda equals out again in a toe to toe battle) Avangion gains Aura which limits dragons magic and physical effectiveness. So there are ups and downs to each side, and each side has a greater advantage in certain situations... (The dragon is better vs a group than the avangion in a fight, if death dealing is the goal while the avangion is likely to be unharmable vs the group due to his immunities so he can act without being stopped while the dragon can slaughter everyone then act.) Each has different ways to go about things.. They balance each other out, in my view, by one being more defensive than the other.. and the defensive one, being less offensive than the other in some ways... At least, these rambling thoughts enter my mind when I think of balance..
#15 zombiegleemax Oct 08, 2006 8:27:33	Has anyone thought of (and I'm just floating this one here) making an empirical test of the empirical proposition?
#16 zombiegleemax Oct 13, 2006 0:29:51	Alright, so the Avangion and the Dragon fight. How about another contest. What about a Dragon/Avangion/30th Element vs. Those 36 level plus characters from D&D basic's Immortal set?
#17 lyric Oct 13, 2006 3:38:52	Actually, I want to know if there is going to be any form of cooperative magics between, say, 1-4 elementals and a Spirit of the Land in a joint Epic spell of.. well.. Epic proportions. ;) I think it sounds like fun. I've also wondered if Avangions might be able to hook up (spell wise) with elementals, what with their traveling through the planes and all after the last spell is cast... maybe they made some friends. Should a Spirit of the Land like, or dislike a preserver or Avangion?? on the one hand, they do not defile, (though some may turn towards it) and on the other, they may seem only like gluttons in a way, using more of the land than others of their kind.. most people eat 'something' off the land at some point, which is natural... but preservers take a little extra... which can sometimes be put to good use.. :P Ok.. dragon vs Avangion.. simple.. Avangion wins.. why? because there will always be another dragon (easier to fall from preserver to defiler, and if the 'good guys' win, the preservers, they will merely make it all the easier for dragons to exist in the future.. more energy to suck up. :P) Could you imagine the secret of dragon metamorphosis leaking (in such a way that it could be used) into, say, forgotten realms? or krynn? (minus the deities)... especially in a world like krynn (again taking out the deities) there would be those like the white order, going towards avangion status, those like the black robes, headed towards dragons, and the red robes would all be strait psions :P or spirits of the land maybe. ;) lol
#18 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 13, 2006 9:56:17	I would say that SotL's view all Preservers as potential Defilers. However, an Avangion is someone who actually transcended that, and no longer drains external energy even as much as before they became Avangions, so I dunno about that one. They might actually somewhat like Avangions, but not necessarily wanting direct contact.
#19 kalthandrix Oct 13, 2006 10:13:44	I would say that SotL's view all Preservers as potential Defilers. However, an Avangion is someone who actually transcended that, and no longer drains external energy even as much as before they became Avangions, so I dunno about that one. They might actually somewhat like Avangions, but not necessarily wanting direct contact. Well - if we follow and quote the published adventures as being canon - then I would have to say that the SotL would see the Avangions as comrades and would be willing to help them - such as in the adventure Arcane Shadows.